Snow Chains - D3/RRS

[101RRS]

I am considering putting my name down for an "offroad" trip in the Snowys a bit later in winter. Snow chains will be required on all wheels.

According to the handbook chains are to be be only fitted to the front wheels and must not be fitted to rear wheels but does not given a reason.

So, is the reason clearance around the rear wheels or a drive train issue.

While I would most likely select grass/gravel/snow for onroad use, I am open to suggestions for deep snow without an ice base - looking at the options Mud Ruts would seem to the best TR setting with Rock Crawl for the really slow stuff - open to suggestions from people with experience with deep snow in the D3.

Thanks

Garry

[Learner]

Hi Garry,
Unfortunately, many tour leaders (commercial or club) don't understand the capabilities of the D3/D4/RRS and just impose a blanket requirement. :(

I note that you say "... chains on all four wheels". If they say "chains for all for wheels" you should obviate this nonsense requirement by carrying chains for all wheels.

[101RRS]

Thanks for the comments - unfortunately they will have to go on. I would prefer to use my 101 but the RRS is a lot more comfortable in really cold climates. Chains will also be needed for it but chain rental places do not have large enough chains for fat 35" tyres. I am not prepared to spend almost $500 for a basic set of four for use once every few years.

Garry

[SBD4]

Garry, this is about all I could find on the subject from disco3 forum:



Here is what Skidrive say about the use of snow chains on 2 wheels.

This is a subject which can be tested and debated at ridiculous lengths!

In our opinion, using just 1 pair has two issues:

a) The un-chained set of wheels will spin easily. Electronic traction
control will detect this and distribute all of the power to the wheels
with chains on instead. This is fine, but means you're now driving a
full time 2 wheel drive vehicle, which completely defeats the object of
4x4! You're also left with a very heavy vehicle trying to move on snow
with only 2 driving wheels, which may make it less mobile than 2WD vehicle.

b) The wheels with the chains fitted will increase in diameter. If the 4
wheel drive is of a design which locks the front and rear wheels
together, each set of wheels will either lose a degree of traction, or
end up pushing the other set along. In adverse conditions, this could
conceivably cause transfer box damage, or accelerate tyre wear.

If you use 4 chains, you negate both effects, so we recommend this on
all 4 wheel drives where practical. I think you'll probably find Land
Rover's recommendation is based largely on the lack of clearance on the
vehicle. We can usually supply lower clearance or zero clearance chains
to get around this issue.


Seems to give a good case for chaining all 4 wheels.

Thread:

DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Snow chains (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic3149.html)

post is last on page 3

[101RRS]

Thanks for that - that is an interesting link - seems many D3 drivers are putting them on all four wheels and that clearance is not the issues.

Garry

[isuzurover]

Hi Garry,
Unfortunately, many tour leaders (commercial or club) don't understand the capabilities of the D3/D4/RRS and just impose a blanket requirement. :(



:D All the fancy electronics in the world can't compete with snow chains.

[CaverD3]

The was a lot of discussion about snow chains on the UK site. Problem was very small clearance to the suspension components on the front, the rears have only a small clearance between tyre and the wheel arch liner which has a the rear A/C pipes under it. If you have larger diameter tyres it could be a problem on extreme wheel travel. Some chains will fit others won't. All four wheels can be done

Discovery 3 on the Crosiere Blanche 2007 - YouTube

Spacers are needed for heavier chains though (illegal here but never really understood why?)
DISCO4.COM - Log In (http://disco4.com/forum/topic9010.html)

DISCO4.COM - View topic - Spikes Spider snow chains (http://disco4.com/forum/topic62724.html)
DISCO4.COM - View topic - Snow chains (http://disco4.com/forum/topic72934.html)
DISCO4.COM - View topic - Snowchains (http://disco4.com/forum/topic72466.html)
DISCO4.COM - View topic - Snow chains (http://disco4.com/forum/topic3149.html)

[101RRS]

Thanks - all the conflicting information does make it a hard call. What doesn't help is the lack of information about what happens in the car when each TR setting is selected. If the CDL is locked then chains on the front wheels on icey roads is understandable (4 wheel chains are better) but if the CDL is not locked (I understand the only setting where it is locked is Rock Crawl but you are limited to low range) the I guess that the programming when Gravel, Snow and Grass is selected takes that into account that there maybe chains on the front and varies the amount the CDL locks etc. However what do you select in deep snow offroad? there is no TR setting for that.

I have asked about this before, but it would be nice if there was a table that listed the cars actions when each TR response was selected - under headings such as Engine Power, Gearbox Response, TC Response, CDL Actions, and so forth. About the only actions I know of is that in Sand engine response and TC is enhance so that the car can launch itself out of the sand and in Rock Crawl the CDL is locked.

So if anyone has such a list please put it up.

Interestingly the TV Show "Most Dangerous Roads" this week was about testing some modified Jeeps (the support vehicle was a slightly lifted D1) in the desert area of Utah/Colorado just after a very heavy snow fall - pushing through 2-3foot of snow and they were not wearing chains and relied on their Muddies tread to keep them going. The D1 was in the lead until the going got too hard and they put a lifted jeep with 38" muddies and a 5.7L Chrysler V8 in the front to push through which it did albeit with a lot of difficulty. It highlighted the need to drive in the tracks of the vehicle in front and the difficulty wheeled vehicles have in driving in deep snow - still doable even if a lot of backing then charging the virgin snow was required.

Cheers

Garry

[chuck]

Garry

Have done a few snow trips in both D2 & D3.

Every time was without chains & on one trip we actually got to the top of Mt Skene in deep snow while passing a RRC equipped with chains that was stuck.

One theory is that the chains break thru the snow rather than airing down & riding on top.

Keep tyre pressure low much the same as soft sand.

The first trip in the D3 was frustrating as I used snow mode.

Snow mode is not the mode for deep snow - I found rock crawl best as in this mode the e diff comes in quicker if you have one fitted.

The first time was with 19" MT'R's and these were far less successful than later trip with 265 x 70 x 17 MTZ's.

In retrospect I found my D2 to be better in snow than D3 maybe this was because it was both higher & lighter.

Cheers

Chuck

[101RRS]

The first trip in the D3 was frustrating as I used snow mode.

Snow mode is not the mode for deep snow - I found rock crawl best as in this mode the e diff comes in quicker if you have one fitted.


\
Chuck - Thanks for the information.

I figured Grass/Snow/Gravel would be no good - I thought Mud Ruts may have better but without know what goes on in the car with each selection it is difficult to say.

Garry

[~Rich~]

Hi Garry,
This will help you:
http://www.disco3.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Terrain_Response_-_Settings_Explained

[101RRS]

Thanks for that - sort of explains why D3s/RRS can have issues in sand - the CDL is not locked.

Really looking at that Rock Crawl closest resembles the setup in a tradional 4wd. 5th gear in low range gives a top speed far faster than most more difficult offroad conditions would allow.

Likewise on snowy roads with chains on the front will stop the rear wheels spinning with the CDL locked in and in low range.

Cheers

Garry

[Summiitt]

Gary, from what I understand of the system, the CDL is a viscous coupling, so it has no electronic input or control, it relies on slipping to activate and lock the clutches using friction in the fluid, so I would think that the CDL would behave the same regardless of the TR setting selected, maybe a small change if a particular TR setting 'tightens' up the traction control and limits wheel spin?

[Dougal]

The first question is which wheels do you have?
The 20's aren't suitable for normal chains due to the width. The spike-spider system is apparently $NZ800 for just the fronts.

As for capability. No-one I've spoken to has anything good to say about the factory fitted RRS conti sport contacts in the cold. Rubber doesn't stick to ice/snow and doesn't care how much electrickery you have.

The snow in the US/Canada and mainland europe is very different to the snow we get in NZ and I'm guessing Aus. Ours is wet and heavy, it quickly packs to hard and slippery (great for snowballs, until you get hit by one) where it glazes and under friction heats to provide a nice wet lubricating layer.
In the snow we get here on formed tracks a 2wd vehicle with chains will leave behind any 4wd vehicle without (unless that 4wd vehicle is a tractor). The chains both scoop snow and provide enough contact pressure to bite into ice.
I haven't found any tyres for the D3/D4/RRS which resemble anything like tractor tyres so chains remain the better option.

I found the skydrive claims pretty funny:
1. If you have chains on the front of a 4wd, then you can't spin the rears without also spinning the fronts.

2. The diameter increase losing traction?
Chains are only used when there is very little traction. There is always wheelslip involved and not enough traction or distance driven to cause tyre wear problems or transfer box breakage.

Four chains are always better. But there are very few situations where you need four. I have carried four many times but never needed to fit more than two.

[Graeme]

the CDL is a viscous coupling, so it has no electronic input or control, it relies on slipping to activate and lock the clutches using friction in the fluid, so I would think that the CDL would behave the same regardless of the TR setting selectedQuite the opposite - it uses an electronically controlled clutch that is programmed to allow different degrees of slip for the different TR settings.

Garry, isn't there an explanation of the various TR setting effects in your handbook?

[101RRS]

Garry, isn't there an explanation of the various TR setting effects in your handbook?

Not specifically - only in general terms such as TR settings will adjust engine response, traction and other settings dependent on what TR mode is selected. The above link provided by Rich provides exactly the type of information that should be in the handbook.

Cheers

Garry

[Dougal]

So the centre diff isn't torsen type in the d3/d4/rrs? It was a torsen in the big rr when they were released, I haven't heard if it was changed to another type.

[gghaggis]

Not specifically - only in general terms such as TR settings will adjust engine response, traction and other settings dependent on what TR mode is selected. The above link provided by Rich provides exactly the type of information that should be in the handbook.

Cheers

Garry
Note that the quoted section isn't _exactly_ accurate, for instance the diffs aren't "locked" immediately in GGS or RC - they're pre-primed to lock early, and the level of lock depends on whether you're talking about the centre or (if fitted) rear diff.

There are other small omissions/inaccuracies, but as an overview it's a handy reference.

Cheers,

Gordon

[101RRS]

Note that the quoted section isn't _exactly_ accurate, for instance the diffs aren't "locked" immediately in GGS or RC - they're pre-primed to lock early, and the level of lock depends on whether you're talking about the centre or (if fitted) rear diff.

There are other small omissions/inaccuracies, but as an overview it's a handy reference.

Cheers,

Gordon

Yes - thanks - I noted that. But it is providing the information I had been looking for.

[Dougal]

Today I checked clearance on a RRS with the factory 275/40R20's. I could not get one of my fingers between the tyre and the upper suspension ball-joint.
Conventional snow chains will never work.

Can someone check this with 19" wheels and let us know the tyre size?

[101RRS]

Today I checked clearance on a RRS with the factory 275/40R20's. I could not get one of my fingers between the tyre and the upper suspension ball-joint.
Conventional snow chains will never work.

Can someone check this with 19" wheels and let us know the tyre size?

The handbook indicates that chains cannot be fitted to 20" wheels.

[Dougal]

The handbook indicates that chains cannot be fitted to 20" wheels.

Yes, but the handbook doesn't say why.

[101RRS]

Yes and does not say why chains cannot be fitted to rear wheels - hey we are back to the original post.

Garry

[Redback]

Yes and does not say why chains cannot be fitted to rear wheels - hey we are back to the original post.

Garry

Because chains must be fitted to the steer wheels on a 4WD.

BTW this is not a factory requirement, this is a requirement from the road authority in your state I believe, it may pay to look at their website for info.

EDIT; this would be for a tradtional 4WD I would assume.

Baz.

[Stuart02]

Not specifically - only in general terms such as TR settings will adjust engine response, traction and other settings dependent on what TR mode is selected. The above link provided by Rich provides exactly the type of information that should be in the handbook.

Cheers

Garry

Hi Garry,

What did you conclude about your chains in the end - just front or both front and rear?

If we could get away with just front it'd be cheaper of course, and I can see it would be best for steering behaviour.

Thanks

[Stuart02]

I should say that I'm thinking more just of snow covered roads with a hard base, where the bite is probably much more useful than snow covered mud...

[101RRS]

I should say that I'm thinking more just of snow covered roads with a hard base, where the bite is probably much more useful than snow covered mud...

Of course 4wds are exempt the requirement to carry and fit chains up in the snow country but I think there is a bit of folly in a driver sticking to this. There were some positives and negatives on having chains on the back raised, so without actually buying some and testing myself I am not sure so for trips up to the snow I am going to get a set and put them only on the front wheels - views may change later with some experience.

I am not going to go on this trip because of the need for chains on all wheels - it will be an added expense I do not need at the moment.

Garry

[Brad110]

Got some yesterday light duty but for $40 it makes you compliant/legal to go to the snow.

Colour coded and easy to fit.

Also avail in 235x85x16 (7.50 x16)

[Dougal]

Got some yesterday light duty but for $40 it makes you compliant/legal to go to the snow.

Colour coded and easy to fit.

Also avail in 235x85x16 (7.50 x16)

What size are your wheels and do they clear everything when turning?

The owner of the 20" tyred RRS I mentioned bought a pair of these from Thule:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/78.jpg

Similar to the Landrover Spike Spyder chains, but half the price. These have nothing on the inner edge to interfere with suspension components.

[Meken]

What size are your wheels and do they clear everything when turning?



The owner of the 20" tyred RRS I mentioned bought a pair of these from Thule:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/78.jpg



Similar to the Landrover Spike Spyder chains, but half the price. These have nothing on the inner edge to interfere with suspension components.


Okay for the rear I guess as the lateral loads much less than the front tyres when steering so less chance of them slipping off.

[Dougal]

Okay for the rear I guess as the lateral loads much less than the front tyres when steering so less chance of them slipping off.

The chains should always grip the tyre better than the ground.
The arms also keep them in place.

[Stuart02]

What size are your wheels and do they clear everything when turning?

The owner of the 20" tyred RRS I mentioned bought a pair of these from Thule:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/78.jpg

Similar to the Landrover Spike Spyder chains, but half the price. These have nothing on the inner edge to interfere with suspension components.

I've seen some talk about these not being acceptable ('legal'?) at certain locations in Victoria such as Hotham? Does anyone know anymore about that?

[gghaggis]

I had a long conversation with the Mt Hotham rangers a couple of years ago, complete with swapping of photos etc to show them that their outdated policy of restricting chains to one particular type (diamond pattern, IIRC) had no basis in reality when dealing with modern 4WD's that couldn't fit them.

They eventually conceded the point and said they'd review the ruling, but I never heard back from them, and doubt they actually did anything.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Melbourne Park]

I had a long conversation with the Mt Hotham rangers a couple of years ago, complete with swapping of photos etc to show them that their outdated policy of restricting chains to one particular type (diamond pattern, IIRC) had no basis in reality when dealing with modern 4WD's that couldn't fit them.

They eventually conceded the point and said they'd review the ruling, but I never heard back from them, and doubt they actually did anything.

Cheers,

Gordon

A few years ago I again took my 1997 Prado, which I had bought new, up to the snow, and for the first time, they made me put its chains on. They are crazy up there. A member of our lodge has for years been putting on winter tyres on their Volvo 4WD for the snow season. Last year they made them put chains onto the winter tyres!!! Crazy ... And for that Prado, you put the chains on the back.

[Nicky]

A few years ago I again took my 1997 Prado, which I had bought new, up to the snow, and for the first time, they made me put its chains on. They are crazy up there. A member of our lodge has for years been putting on winter tyres on their Volvo 4WD for the snow season. Last year they made them put chains onto the winter tyres!!! Crazy ... And for that Prado, you put the chains on the back.

Not so crazy, haven't you seen so many disasters without chains.
No mater which vehicle, winter tyres are no substitute for chains.
Wait till you hit ice w/o chains and you'll know.
Even snow ploughs wear chains, enough said?

[Nicky]

Look here
https://snowchains.co.uk/product/?brand=Weissenfels&model=Clack-and-Go-SUV&pID=RTS-SP-T&p=RTS

[Stuart02]

Look here
https://snowchains.co.uk/product/?brand=Weissenfels&model=Clack-and-Go-SUV&pID=RTS-SP-T&p=RTS

They don't look dissimilar in construction or price to the Konigs, but the trouble is the strut clearance with 275 tyres. 255s are /just/ narrow enough for conventional chains. Apparently. Tonight I'm going to try and put a pair of $180 Autotechnica easy fit chains (CA480) on the front of our RRS with 275/40/R20s just to satisfy myself I have to spend $450 to $700 for fancy chains and argue with alpine rangers about them!

[Stuart02]

Autotecnica CA490 fitted the back - just enough clearance to the compressor line - $150 on sale.
No go for the front, nothing but Thule K-Summit K66 will fit. RRP $780, best price bizarrely from LR, $657. Make time to get them to fit them too, for that money you deserve a laugh. Italian instructions...

[woody919]

Hi,

Does anyone know if you can get diamond chains to fit on a 2010 RRS with 255/55r19 tyres?

Thanks

Chris