Caravans and Better Payloads

[gavinwibrow]

Having had a change of plans (got older) and sold the old greyhound coach RV, which could not only pull a combined trailer, junk and D2 mass of 4.5 tonnes, but also 1000 plus litres of water and my miscellaneious tools and toys, I'm starting to cull my collections of "I must take that" to cater for what will legally fit (weightwise) in a caravan for extended trips.
From my limited to date research it appears that not many caravans (offroad or otherwise) cater for those who want to live in their vans for longer periods and want to take some of their lifestyle items with them. Not only are heavy considerations like extra water (clean and grey/black) for extended free camping limited, but the potential to carry heavier tools and playthings (dingies, outboards, motorbikes etc) appears to be quite restricted.
Anyone know of caravan manufacturers who make provision for better payloads, even at the expense of less space and item luxuries? Apart from the occasionally advertised 2 room versions where you roll in your quads or dirt bikes for a quick weekend away, I can't believe no-one has addressed this market niche!!

[Banjo_pluker]

Bushtraker will accommodate heavier weights but don't think they will lessen the lux side.

They have been known to make up to 4.5 ton vans. They are heavy empty however

[cewilson]

Honestly it sounds like a 5th wheeler would be more down the line you are after. You can get dual cab or single cab utes that can tow them, and in some cases they actually weight less that the caravans.

Add in the advantages of the weight being right above the rear axle, and you can set up a base camp and still have the advantage of a good 4WD and it's hard to understand why they aren't more popular.


Cheers
Chris

[gavinwibrow]

Honestly it sounds like a 5th wheeler would be more down the line you are after. You can get dual cab or single cab utes that can tow them, and in some cases they actually weight less that the caravans.

Add in the advantages of the weight being right above the rear axle, and you can set up a base camp and still have the advantage of a good 4WD and it's hard to understand why they aren't more popular.


Cheers
Chris
Good idea - SWAMBO likes them, but pretty hard to move with a D2a!

[cewilson]

True that! :)


Although a dual cab conversion would look great :)

[gavinwibrow]

True that! :)


Although a dual cab conversion would look great :)
Only problem with the dual cab/ute idea is the turntable / 5th whhel needs to be forward of the rear axle - not that much room to comply in a D2!!

[cewilson]

Seems like you've got yourself a conundrum then. Let us know how you get on with it.


Cheers
Chris

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Most 5th wheelers are too heavy for the majority of utes we have in this country although you see lots of them. The type being suggested here should actually be towed by something not less than a Ford F250, Dodge Ram, NPR Isuzu or Mitsubishi Canter etc.

[TerryO]

Only problem with the dual cab/ute idea is the turntable / 5th whhel needs to be forward of the rear axle - not that much room to comply in a D2!!

Actually the hitch for a Fifth wheeler needs to be behind the axle, not in front of it.

If you are seriously considering a Fifth wheeler check out PUMA RV's (http://www.pumarv.com.au) their vans are made to Australian spec (most others are to wide if they have an awning fitted) and theirs tow pretty well with a Navara etc. Their boxes aren't that long compared to many others, how the make up the space is with massive slide outs.

The other thing is they are very reasonably priced from what I have seen compared to many others sold here.

They also sell some pretty impressive Slide on's as well.

Cheers,
Terry

[mowog]

If you want long term living then nothing smaller than 21' would suit.

You want a van with a tare around 2500kg with GTM of 3500kg factor in 300lt of water and you are down to 700kg of payload. You still have another 50kg in gas and toilet water to account for as well.

This is doable from the right caravan builder but you have to be very clear on what you want up front. Stick with the smaller specialist builders as these guys will build what you want and you tend to deal direct with the factory. Going via dealer on special build will only cause pain because dealers are bloody idiots who are only interested up to the time they get paid.

[Graeme]

Actually the hitch for a Fifth wheeler needs to be behind the axle, not in front of it.y
Why's this Terry? Is it so that the van is still towed as a trailer rather than becoming part of an articulated vehicle, with the tow vehicle having to meet some more strenuous MV regulations as for prime movers?

[TerryO]

Why's this Terry? Is it so that the van is still towed as a trailer rather than becoming part of an articulated vehicle, with the tow vehicle having to meet some more strenuous MV regulations as for prime movers?

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know Graeme you are correct, it is a case of if the hitch is in front of the axle then it is considered as a Semi, behind it then it is considered as a trailer being towed.

A fifth wheeler can not be over 19metres either.

Cheers,
Terry

[vnx205]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know Graeme you are correct, it is a case of if the hitch is in front of the axle then it is considered as a Semi, behind it then it is considered as a trailer being towed.

A fifth wheeler can not be over 19metres either.

Cheers,
Terry

What if it is directly above the axle? :)

[Graeme]

Perhaps the criteria is being forward of the axle whereby some of the load is taken on the front axle and jack-knifing can occur.

[TerryO]

Duplicated above responce deleted.

Cheers,
Terry

[TerryO]

A bloke I know turned up at the track today with his new 150k Dodge Ram with a 38' fifth wheeler on the back. I checked it out and saw the hitch mounted in front of the axle, when I asked him about it he said he didn't know what the law was nor basically cared.

When I pointed out that he may find he had some insurance issues if he had an accident and the hitch was fitted incorrectly he changed his tune on caring and said he had never thought of that.

Cheers,
Terry

[gavinwibrow]

A bloke I know turned up at the track today with his new 150k Dodge Ram with a 38' fifth wheeler on the back. I checked it out and saw the hitch mounted in front of the axle, when I asked him about it he said he didn't know what the law was nor basically cared.

When I pointed out that he may find he had some insurance issues if he had an accident and the hitch was fitted incorrectly he changed his tune on caring and said he had never thought of that.

Cheers,
Terry
I haven't checked the "law" but logic says 5th wheelers are effectively small semis ie the turntable (5th wheel) is between front and rear axles of the prime mover (tow) vehicle. If you look at where their trailing axles are located, you don't have a weight "balanced" normal caravan/home trailer load arrangement, but a lot of weight pushing down on the gooseneck. If that is the case there is no way you would allow the 5th wheel connection point to be located behind the rear prime mover axle. Happy to be shown to be wrong, but don't recall ever seeing a rearward 5th wheel.

Personally, I'm still thinking along the lines of an ideally no more than 2 ton(ne?) caravan (inclusive of water etc) which can legally carry another ton. Dream on Gavin!

[bigcarle]

back in the 80's when i was in the transport industry in Brisbane i wondered on what license the drivers at LUYA-JULIUS had for their car carring division, 'E' (semi) or 'C' (body truck). the trucks were cab over Leylands able to put a car on the back and on the roof plus the trailer for a total of 6 cars. no one could tell me with any certainty, so i went and found out from some official channel at the time (no internet then) and the regulation went something like this.
if the turntable is mounted over or in front of the drive wheels it is classed as an articulated vehicle.
the car carriers had their turntables mounted under the drive axle so they could be driven on a 'C' (body truck) license. i was driving a dog at the time which is a body truck license as the turntable is mounted on the trailer

[gavinwibrow]

And then we have the urban bendy buses many/most of which are pushed by an engine in the rear with a turntable behind the second from front of the 3 axles. I don't think DoT ever really came to grips with them and we were able to drive them on a then F class (carrying fare paying passengers) licence as we were trained in house. I think the MAN versions were the only ones with the engine in the front half (underfloor mid engined if I recall) and a true "trailing" rear half - again with a turntable between the halves.

[Graeme]

Closely couple axles are defined as an axle group with its centre mid-point between the foremost and rearmost axles so there shouldn't be any ambiguity as to whether the hitch is at or forward of centre.

[JayBoRover]

From my limited to date research it appears that not many caravans (offroad or otherwise) cater for those who want to live in their vans for longer periods and want to take some of their lifestyle items with them. Not only are heavy considerations like extra water (clean and grey/black) for extended free camping limited, but the potential to carry heavier tools and playthings (dingies, outboards, motorbikes etc) appears to be quite restricted.
Anyone know of caravan manufacturers who make provision for better payloads, even at the expense of less space and item luxuries? Apart from the occasionally advertised 2 room versions where you roll in your quads or dirt bikes for a quick weekend away, I can't believe no-one has addressed this market niche!!
What about those Jayco Base Station caravans? I haven't had a serious look at their weights or options but aren't they specifically marketed for the lifestyle "carry all your toys with you" people? Maybe don't cover the long term living aspect but I believe they're reasonably well kitted out for comfort living. I think they do an off-road capable (within serious limits I would suggest) version. I've toyed with the idea myself but never got around to looking seriously.
Cheers
John B

[gavinwibrow]

What about those Jayco Base Station caravans? I haven't had a serious look at their weights or options but aren't they specifically marketed for the lifestyle "carry all your toys with you" people? Maybe don't cover the long term living aspect but I believe they're reasonably well kitted out for comfort living. I think they do an off-road capable (within serious limits I would suggest) version. I've toyed with the idea myself but never got around to looking seriously.
Cheers
John B
Thanks John - what you mention is meant to be my "Apart from the occasionally advertised 2 room versions where you roll in your quads or dirt bikes for a quick weekend away" comment, but certainly could be something to build on. Also some other positive comments on this thread.

[TerryO]

I spoke with an importer of Fifth Wheeler RV trailers today and asked the question re ball position in regards to rear axle and he confirmed that the ball has to be behind the axle if you want to legally drive on a normal car or truck license depending on size / weight. etc

If the ball is in front of the axle then the driver needs to hold an Articulated license to be legal.

The ball only has to be an inch behind the axle to be legal but if it is over or in front then you can't drive legally with a car license.

He also confirmed that if the ball is in front it tows and turns much better and that is why people fit them that way even though they aren't legal for most drivers but if you have an accident especially where an injury or death happens then your really up poo poo creek without a paddle.

cheers,
Terry

[bigcarle]

He also confirmed that if the ball is in front it tows and turns much better and that is why people fit them that way even though they aren't legal for most drivers but if you have an accident especially where an injury or death happens then your really up poo poo creek without a paddle.

no worries to me...have an MC ('B' double/road train) licence
:wasntme::D;)

[Graeme]

If the ball is in front of the axle then the driver needs to hold an Articulated license to be legal.
This reminds me of when I was asked where I wanted the turn-table fitted to my prime mover after having purchased a refurbished trailer - about 6" forward of the centre of the drive axle group, being enough to ensure some trailer weight transfers onto the front axle when braking but not so much as to make it hard to steer.