Soldering irons

[Utemad]

Hi all,

What soldering irons are people using for auto electrics?

I have a Portasol Super Pro gas soldering iron from Jaycar. About 10 years old and no longer works properly. Had it for work originally but has only had hobby use the last 8 years or so.

I've been looking for a Weller electric soldering iron but can't find anyone who sells the good quality ones.
Was thinking the W60PD3 with a chisel tip if you can get it in Oz.
I want something quality not Bunnings junk. Even Haymans and Ideal Electrical only sold same type as Bunnings.

So what do you use and who sells quality soldering irons?


http://www.apexhandtools.com/brands/weller/index.cfm'model_list=1&att_id=WEL002&att1=Soldering%20Irons&att2=Consumer%20Soldering%20Iron%20Kits

[iPom]

Until recently I worked in the electrical/mechanical fit out of power boats. I used the Weller Portasol Super Pro and can't recommend it highly enough. I went through a couple in about 4 years of heavy daily use. They are not cheap at around $140 but for ease of use and portability you can't beat them.

Dave

[Tombie]

I've had great success with the following:

2000 VersaTip (http://www.dremel.com/en-au/tools/pages/ToolDetail.aspx?pid=2000)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/1300.jpg

For more electronic work, I use a Re-Work station.

[clubagreenie]

I have 3 Irons, 15w, 25w & 40w (all from Jaycar). The higher two are the Duratech orange units, the 15w is a goot (that's not listed any more, tey have a 46w for $80-). Have lasted years now, all tips are available from Jaycar and I keep a few spares in different shapes etc. All up was <$100-, at current pricing as a comparison, for a 25w $13-95 & 40w $18-95.

The Goot station is good value at $299-.

[splinter]

If you're just soldering wires grab an 80w, that way you can un-plug it and still use it to get to those awkward places.

[Utemad]

Until recently I worked in the electrical/mechanical fit out of power boats. I used the Weller Portasol Super Pro and can't recommend it highly enough. I went through a couple in about 4 years of heavy daily use. They are not cheap at around $140 but for ease of use and portability you can't beat them.

Dave

This one?
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=TS1318
That is what I have now. Didn't realise Weller made them in that case.
The Dremel one Tombie mentioned sounds essentially the same.

I agree you get what you pay for usually. However a good quality electric should outlast a good quality gas unit by a big margin.
I'm sure I'll get another gas one sometime though as they are so handy. Just expensive.

[Utemad]

I have 3 Irons, 15w, 25w & 40w (all from Jaycar). The higher two are the Duratech orange units, the 15w is a goot (that's not listed any more, tey have a 46w for $80-). Have lasted years now, all tips are available from Jaycar and I keep a few spares in different shapes etc. All up was <$100-, at current pricing as a comparison, for a 25w $13-95 & 40w $18-95.

The Goot station is good value at $299-.

I've never seen Goot stuff before but Jaycar talks them up on their website. Worth a look but a bit low powered for what I was after.

[Utemad]

I've had great success with the following:

2000 VersaTip (http://www.dremel.com/en-au/tools/pages/ToolDetail.aspx?pid=2000)

For more electronic work, I use a Re-Work station.

Google says half the price of the Portasol but I've never seen them in a shop.
Where did you buy yours?

[clubagreenie]

My 25w Goot is as useful as the 40w Jaycar unit, difference is the tip size and longevity of the retained heat.

[iPom]

This one?
<Portasol> Pro Piezo Gas Soldering Tool Kit - Jaycar Electronics (http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=TS1318)
That is what I have now. Didn't realise Weller made them in that case.
The Dremel one Tombie mentioned sounds essentially the same.

I agree you get what you pay for usually. However a good quality electric should outlast a good quality gas unit by a big margin.
I'm sure I'll get another gas one sometime though as they are so handy. Just expensive.

No, mine came in a different case. Mine is rated up to 125W and has a 4.8mm tip as well as a 2.4 and the rope cutter, heat shield, blow tip etc.

I agree that a 240V will probably last longer, the ignition generally fails on the gas irons. It still works although I have to light the flame with a ciggie lighter. In general with any iron it is the tips that fail first. Keeping them tinned and clean with a damp cloth or sponge is the way.

I reckon you just can't beat the portability of gas irons. If I had lots of bench work to solder I would use a 240V as Tombie as suggested.
Dave

[Tombie]

Google says half the price of the Portasol but I've never seen them in a shop.
Where did you buy yours?

Local shop - R I Gas and Industrial Supplies...

Any Dremel agent should have them...

Try their "Where to buy" page...

Where To Buy (http://www.dremel.com/en-au/customerservice/productsupport/wheretobuy/Pages/default.aspx)


This Aussie mob ship:
dremel versa tip (http://www.mytoolstore.com.au/products/Dremel-VersaTip-%282000%252d6%29Butane-torch.html)

[Utemad]

No, mine came in a different case. Mine is rated up to 125W and has a 4.8mm tip as well as a 2.4 and the rope cutter, heat shield, blow tip etc.

I agree that a 240V will probably last longer, the ignition generally fails on the gas irons. It still works although I have to light the flame with a ciggie lighter. In general with any iron it is the tips that fail first. Keeping them tinned and clean with a damp cloth or sponge is the way.

I reckon you just can't beat the portability of gas irons. If I had lots of bench work to solder I would use a 240V as Tombie as suggested.
Dave

Yes sorry I have that one too. Working from my phone today.
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=TS1328

My ignition was first thing to die and have been using a ciggy lighter to ignite it.
Now instead of a constant strong flame it flares half the time which is no good for heat and blows itself out. Can't figure out how to pull it apart. Probably needs a good clean out inside. Tried poking the main hole you can see but nothing changed. Any ideas?

[Utemad]

Local shop - R I Gas and Industrial Supplies...

Any Dremel agent should have them...

Try their "Where to buy" page...

Where To Buy (http://www.dremel.com/en-au/customerservice/productsupport/wheretobuy/Pages/default.aspx)

This Aussie mob ship:
dremel versa tip (http://www.mytoolstore.com.au/products/Dremel-VersaTip-%282000%252d6%29Butane-torch.html)

Used their locator and they don't have anything within 100km of Dalby or Brisbane.
Would prefer to see before I buy for this sort of thing.
Edit: sent them an email requesting their stockists as it seems the locator is broken.

[mattyg]

I use a Weller Pyro Pen. It is pretty good, gas with piezo ignition and multiple tips. It is fully rebuildable with all parts available for replacement. $130 from Prime Electronics Brisbane.

I also have a $25 cheapie 240V from jaycar and have given it a hard life for 3 years, only broke on me the other day. I'll probably get another cheapie.

[Utemad]

Ended up getting a cheap 240v 80w unit. Will get another Portasol unit later. It was a good soldering iron before it died.
Never heard back from Dremel.

[123rover50]

Just for wire work I use a Scope. Works through a transformer and has a sliding switch for near instant heat. Doesnt anyone else use these anymore?

Didiman

[Slunnie]

Dick Smith Hotshot 25w. It was cheap and it's still going 19 years later.

[bee utey]

Just for wire work I use a Scope. Works through a transformer and has a sliding switch for near instant heat. Doesnt anyone else use these anymore?

Didiman

Me too, every day. I love their quick warm up and quick cool down, it's safe to touch within 30 seconds of use. Handy when you have mulitple tasks and tools about on a vehicle.

[RangieBit]

Hi all,

....
I've been looking for a Weller electric soldering iron but can't find anyone who sells the good quality ones.
... who sells quality soldering irons?




Hi Utemad,

Sorry I came a little late to this thread. If you are still after the Weller stations then Radio Parts here in Melbourne sell them. Their website is here (http://www.radioparts.com.au/)

I was picking up some coax fittings the other day and saw that they stock them. Might be worth a browse and see if they have what you seek.

I have no connection with them other being a happy customer.

I'm with Simon. My Dick Smith 25W is still going after 12 years.

Cheers,
Iain

[Don 130]

That Dremel that Toombie put up is identical to mine which came from Aldi supermarket for $35.00 I haven't used it all that much yet as I'm still using an old portasol. IMHO you can't beat gas irons for portability.
Don.

[Utemad]

Never heard of a scope. Will have to google it.
Will keep an eye out at Aldi too.

[Utemad]

I used to have a 25w variable temp Dick Smith soldering iron when I was a kid doing Dick Smith kits. Thought it was the bees knees being variable. One day it went bang in my hand and never worked again.

[OffTrack]

Hi Utemad,

Sorry I came a little late to this thread. If you are still after the Weller stations then Radio Parts here in Melbourne sell them. Their website is here (http://www.radioparts.com.au/)

I was picking up some coax fittings the other day and saw that they stock them. Might be worth a browse and see if they have what you seek.

I have no connection with them other being a happy customer.

I'm with Simon. My Dick Smith 25W is still going after 12 years.

Cheers,
Iain

Hakko make some pretty nice stations. Worth a look if you are chasing quality bench top gear.

[Slunnie]

I've been looking for a Weller electric soldering iron but can't find anyone who sells the good quality ones.
Was thinking the W60PD3 with a chisel tip if you can get it in Oz.
I want something quality not Bunnings junk. Even Haymans and Ideal Electrical only sold same type as Bunnings.

So what do you use and who sells quality soldering irons?


Weller®- Soldering tools, rework/repair tools, soldering guns and irons and accessories (http://www.apexhandtools.com/brands/weller/index.cfm'model_list=1&att_id=WEL002&att1=Soldering%20Irons&att2=Consumer%20Soldering%20Iron%20Kits)
Perhaps they're the junk ones, about $70-90 I think, but we've had a really bad run from Weller soldering irons. They have not lasted in the slightest, and almost none of them passed the test for electrical tagging.

[mattyg]

Excluding a broken/ damaged lead or earth wire.

As electrical soldering irons have a heating element when testing them for 'test and tag' they will have a low insulation resistance reading.
This is normal and does not mean it doesnt pass, whoever does your testing should know this.
Double check with them.

[Slunnie]

Excluding a broken/ damaged lead or earth wire.

As electrical soldering irons have a heating element when testing them for 'test and tag' they will have a low insulation resistance reading.
This is normal and does not mean it doesnt pass, whoever does your testing should know this.
Double check with them.
Thanks.... that was expensive!

[loanrangie]

I bought an Aoyue968 hot air rework station with variable temp soldering iron, sure beats the crappy bunnings ones is great on fine electronics like xbox's, NDS, Play stations etc. Less than $200 .

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[clubagreenie]

Whats the hot air functiuon on that unit for? The fume extraction I like. For the price it looks like a good value unit.

[loanrangie]

Whats the hot air functiuon on that unit for? The fume extraction I like. For the price it looks like a good value unit.

For BGA chip repair/ removal , also handy for heat shrink tube on wiring.

[Tombie]

I bought an Aoyue968 hot air rework station with variable temp soldering iron, sure beats the crappy bunnings ones is great on fine electronics like xbox's, NDS, Play stations etc. Less than $200 .

http://www.aoyue.com/en/UploadFiles/200571172744436.jpg

I've got one of these too... Good solid unit for the $$$

Does a great job :cool:

[DoubleChevron]

I found this thread with the google search at the bottom of the forum ... no doubt I'll never find it again given it's hidden in a sub-forum :)

anyway, I have a toolbox full of crappy irons that will drive you insane, a very nice superscope that is nothing short of brilliant for almost everything except circuit board work ................ And I need to solder a new variable pot to my mig welders wire speed controller board.

Anyway, I thought maybe these days I could pickup a quality weller temp controlled iron or similar use .... :confused: Nope, ebay show anything of known quality is still staggeringly expensive

however noticed these:

NEW 936 SMD Professional Soldering Rework Station Temperature Control AU Stock | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/361435027252)

How the hell can the build and import a temp controlled iron that works for $30 bucks :o

https://youtu.be/cClzLBYi4Ew

How can you disagree with this guy .... he's not a brand name snob. It works, it's temperature controlled ... given the tiny use most have for electronic work how could you go wrong ( there not much these days circuit board wise that can be repaired).

seeya,
Shane L.

[Fluids]

I bought one of those ... branded different ... from the reccomendation of the HobbyKing website forum .... I bought 2x delivered for around $35AUD !!!

Then bought 2x sets of tips (of all different shapes) ... maybe 10x different types, for $4 per set off Ebay.

The iron works exceptionally well, and so far they've both done a moderate amount of work without any issues ....

... and for the price, how can you go wrong !! :)

[DoubleChevron]

I bought one of those ... branded different ... from the reccomendation of the HobbyKing website forum .... I bought 2x delivered for around $35AUD !!!

Then bought 2x sets of tips (of all different shapes) ... maybe 10x different types, for $4 per set off Ebay.

The iron works exceptionally well, and so far they've both done a moderate amount of work without any issues ....

... and for the price, how can you go wrong !! :)

That's what I was figuring. for circuit board work, all you need is it to stay at the right temperature... it's the only work I'd use it for.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/05/506.jpg

the scope will do anything bigger where temperature control doesn't matter. These things have seemingly endless grunt. Sadly NOT cheap though :(

seeya,
Shane L.

[p38arover]

Just for wire work I use a Scope. Works through a transformer and has a sliding switch for near instant heat. Doesnt anyone else use these anymore?

Didiman

I have one, too, but it gets little use. It travels in the Rangie as I have the model with a long lead and alligator clips for direct connection to a 12v battery.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/05/581.jpg

Dad used to use the 3.3volt transformer with his back in the 50-60s.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/05/582.jpg


Perhaps they're the junk ones, about $70-90 I think, but we've had a really bad run from Weller soldering irons. They have not lasted in the slightest, and almost none of them passed the test for electrical tagging.


My main iron that I bought in 1971 is a Weller TCP-1 temperature controlled unit. It cost me $27 back then - about 2 days pay. I'm still using it. I've replaced a lot of tips and a few heating elements over the years.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/05/583.jpg

I have several others - as one does when one is/was an electronics tech. I also have a soldering gun. I used to see the Yanks used them a lot so I bought a Weller unit back in the 70s or 80s. It is pretty useless.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/05/584.jpg

[p38arover]

I found this thread with the google search at the bottom of the forum ... no doubt I'll never find it again given it's hidden in a sub-forum :)

Moved to Tool Time - a section that didn't exist when the thread was started.

[DoubleChevron]

That's what I was figuring. for circuit board work, all you need is it to stay at the right temperature... it's the only work I'd use it for.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/05/506.jpg

the scope will do anything bigger where temperature control doesn't matter. These things have seemingly endless grunt. Sadly NOT cheap though :(

seeya,
Shane L.

That ancient scope sure is interesting. I imagine the current scopes are the identical iron with chinese transformers in a shiny plastic case.

Oh be warned, if you buy one of the low voltage superscope irons pictured, the transformer is sold separately. If you buy just the iron, it will certainly stay pristine and un-used looking, and not be very useful to you :wasntme:

I have never had much luck with even the 80watt cheap'ish irons. They just don't get hot enough. If you try to solder wires together with them, the tip looses to much heat... and you end up melting all the insulation and wiring your trying to solder while waiting for the iron to recover enough to melt the solder. With the superscope. You just pour on the juice, and she'll heat pretty much anything you can hold the iron against within a few seconds :twisted: See why they aren't much good for circuit board work ... you'd disolve the circuit board due to excessive heat/power quicker than you can blink :o

seeya
Shane L.

[Mercguy]

Given my field is electrical, I've got more than a few related tools.

The pictures above of the 2 scope irons, Shane's orange superscope one and Ron's transformer / bakelite one - got em both. Can't kill em. every single part is replaceable individually (or as a set). Cheap, reliable, will get the job done.
There is a miniscope version (I have one which is older than I am) with a lever actuation also. It's f-ing awesome.

the older one (ron's exposed transformer type) is by far the most robust when used with the chisel tip. I mean you can solder sheetmetal guttering with it if you need to, (but I prefer to use an LPG iron for that, and yeah, got a few different ones of those too) It is a seriously hardcore iron. You could solder 00 B&S with it if you had to. There is a metal engraving/etching pen also available which is very similar to the bakelite handle iron, and connects to the same transformer.

But when it comes to fine PCB work, the only really useful solution is a rework station. They are expensive, and there are no two ways about it. You need a rework station, because you need to desolder, rework dry joints and solder SMC's properly without excessive heat.

Sure, you can buy a Jaycar type (I did some years back due to a problem with getting parts for another expensive brand *cough hakko*), but all the reflow side is, is a cheap aquarium pump and a ****weak rheostat element, or rather, old jug element shoved into an abs plastic handle... which won't last with regular use.

So all I want to add to the discussion is simply this:

If you want your tools to last, easily replaceable and not other-worldly cost, then you could do a lot worse for auto electrical work, than a Scope. Temp control is crude, but user controlled in the handle. This makes it exceptional for quick work.

If you need to do detailed reworking of PCB's and SMC's then you will need a much bigger budget for something that will go the distance (i.e. last).

Stuff like Hakko & Goot are not cheap. But they are pretty much the 'cream' of the affordable stuff. Above that, and you're looking at reflow stations made by the industrials like Juki, and I'd argue that purchasing a new Range Rover would be a wiser investment (yes, you heard me) if you're not running 10K boards a week through it.

For auto work, the Orange Superscope with a choice of chisel or pin tips are pretty hard to beat. I have a few irons hooked up to a single transformer, one with a chisel, one with a conical pin and another miniscope with the pin tip filed flat on one side, so it has a flat, which can be used for smaller crimp connectors without having to resort to getting out one of the other irons from the benchtop.

I've spent thousands of dollars on work-related tools, and yet for auto work, the newer orange transformer scope is probably what gets used the most. I do not know why, it's probably mostly because it is fast to heat up, can do a big or small soldering job very quickly, and isn't cumbersome to lug around a vehicle when you need to move it.

For the 0,00 & 000 B&S cable, I actually use a cast iron pot, with 70/30 sticks in it, heated with a blowtorch. use an acid flux, then crimp & dip, cool and heatshrink over the fitting.

Without being brand biased, the older weller stuff I found to be OK, but the temperature control was not very stable (or effective) and the low rating of many of their irons meant extended heat application to areas which is not ideal.

The scope irons with the carbon tip conductor work much better and heat faster (and have about 10x the power) so are ideal for 'quickies'. I wouldn't touch a new weller iron, they are not what they used to be as a brand. even their little portable butane irons are not as good as they were 10 years ago. I'm lucky if one will last me 12 months now. They are expensive junk. sometimes necessary, but expensive junk nonetheless.

For lighter duty work, when you can get the stuff away from a vehicle - i.e. harnesses & doing connectors, soldering crimped fittings like spade connectors etc, then I'd go for a good brand workbench type temperature controlled (digital) iron like a goot or hakko. I'd go for a jaycar one if the budget didn't extend and I really needed one for the job, or did not care about it lasting more than about 12 months.

Unfortunately, I have a tool-purchasing mantra that stems from upbringing, only buy the best if you want it to last, and if you cannot afford it, save. It has been a problem for me, because I have ended up with a 'snobs toolbox' but I've not been let down by any of it, and I have been quite frugal with those purchases. Every single tool has lasted well past the purchase 'value' or any perceived 'premium' that people somehow place on these things.

Conversely, I learned that buying cheap and expecting it to last was a lesson in waste, but buying cheap and only expecting it to last for a single use, and it lasting well beyond that, was a blessing.

With soldering work, it kind of is a tool where to be totally honest, 'you get what you pay for' and while I have plenty of electronic tools that are far more expensive or valuable than the scope (soldering iron, not the oscilloscope), I actually think they are quite literally the cream of the crop when it comes to something that is well made, robust and not expensive for what it actually is, considering how long it will last (yes, it will probably outlast you if it's looked after) and the fact that every single piece can be replaced without huge cost.

[loanrangie]

I have this unit which i have been using for about 3 years for repairing /modding game consoles.

http://goldfly.en.ecplaza.net/sitebuilder/images/go31.jpg

[GlennD]

If you're specifically doing auto electric work on wiring exposed in the engine bay, for example, don't solder. Use crimps. Solder is the worst thing in these environments.


You might think crimps are used in automotive connections due to easy of use. That's not the reason. They are highly stable termination mechanisms. Solder will deteriorate over time and the joint will become unusable. More so with highly aggressive atmospheres.
For electronics, Hakko and Metcal are very good. There is another American brand in the same price range but we use the two mentioned above, and have been for years.
Yes I know, plumbers solder copper pipes. I'm talking stranded wire and much less copper, heat used, etc.

[loanrangie]

I have seen bad crimps and bad soldering so i dont think either is a perfect solution and both can fail, i would trust a good soldered joint with heat shrink added before a crimped joint.

[Old Farang]

I have worked in the electrical trade most of my working life. Everything from rewinding motors during my apprenticeship, to being chief electrician on offshore drilling rigs.

Both crimps and soldering have their place, but the problem with soldering on automotive wiring as an example, is that the solder will "wick" up the conductor and cause it to become brittle. With vibration it can lead to breakages. The bigger the cable the more prone it is to this problem. On big 800hp DC traction motors the leads are always crimped, just like starter motor cables should be. Just as with solder, the preparation and application of the correct tool is a must.

The picture of the old Scope soldering iron sure bought back memories. I still have one somewhere. They used to be available in stainless steel, and back in the 1960s I remember fitting some long leads and alligator clips on one for my mate that had a crayfishing boat.

[GlennD]

I have seen bad crimps and bad soldering so i dont think either is a perfect solution and both can fail, i would trust a good soldered joint with heat shrink added before a crimped joint.


That's a personal viewpoint. However, its not borne out by engineering facts. A crimped connection is governed by 3 variables. Wire gauge, crimp pressure and type of crimp. An operator can be trained very quickly to become highly accurate with a crimp tool and produce good crimps with close target parameters.
Now take soldering. The parameters are much less controllable. That's the reason why all solder joints used in military aircraft and spacecraft are x-rayed.
I say this because I've come across too many arguments stemming from lack of engineering knowledge on solder joint properties where your life could depend on it. Suppose someone on this forum takes it as gospel that a solder joint with covered with heatshrink is undisputably the best and goes ahead and does that for a critical connection. How do you know the solder had flowed correctly ? How do you know that flux hasn't built up between the metal-solder interface ? How do you check the joint is still intact when you cover it with heatshrink and install it in the vehicle, bending the connection point in the process ? Extend that over a few years ..with someone inexperienced in soldering.
That should be sufficient examples.
As you have said, there are bad crimps produced too. However, its easier to produce a good crimp than a good solder joint, in relation to automotive connections.

[DoubleChevron]

That's a personal viewpoint. However, its not borne out by engineering facts. A crimped connection is governed by 3 variables. Wire gauge, crimp pressure and type of crimp. An operator can be trained very quickly to become highly accurate with a crimp tool and produce good crimps with close target parameters.
Now take soldering. The parameters are much less controllable. That's the reason why all solder joints used in military aircraft and spacecraft are x-rayed.
I say this because I've come across too many arguments stemming from lack of engineering knowledge on solder joint properties where your life could depend on it. Suppose someone on this forum takes it as gospel that a solder joint with covered with heatshrink is undisputably the best and goes ahead and does that for a critical connection. How do you know the solder had flowed correctly ? How do you know that flux hasn't built up between the metal-solder interface ? How do you check the joint is still intact when you cover it with heatshrink and install it in the vehicle, bending the connection point in the process ? Extend that over a few years ..with someone inexperienced in soldering.
That should be sufficient examples.
As you have said, there are bad crimps produced too. However, its easier to produce a good crimp than a good solder joint, in relation to automotive connections.

This is all interesting and no doubt correct. However ( :D ) I have never seen an aftermarket crimp on connection on a car that hasn't failed the gentle tug test... ie: the wire just pulls out if you tug on it. I reckon on cars soldering is the only 100% failure free way to go. Not in a million years is the joint going to fatigue and die in a car, especially if the harness is tied down so it can't move,

You simply can't compare manufactures wiring crimps (likely done with 20ton crimpers) the aftermarket merde used on cars :)

seeya
Shane L.

[Debacle]

When using crimp terminals I take the plastic bit off first, slide some heat shrink onto the wire, crimp it then heat shrink over it. Works very well and looks a bit tidier.

[p38arover]

Some years back I had friends in the RAAF who worked on electronics. They had to do a high reliability soldering course. After every use of the solder, they had to snip off the end of the solder wire to expose fresh resin.


When using crimp terminals I take the plastic bit off first, slide some heat shrink onto the wire, crimp it then heat shrink over it. Works very well and looks a bit tidier.

I use these crimp terminals

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/458.jpg

I have the right tool to fold the tabs in like this (actually, better than this):

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/459.jpg

[nismine01]

"I have seen bad crimps and bad soldering so i don't think either is a perfect solution and both can fail, i would trust a good soldered joint with heat shrink added before a crimped joint."

A good clean well taped and shrink wrapped joint is preferable wherever conditions and/or load is concerned, the crimps should (IMHO) only be used inside the vehicle and for very light loads.

The number of times I have had to rewire someones trailer plug because of corrosion in crimp fittings has been ridiculous.

My choice for wire soldering is one of those cheap little gas "Hot Devils", a twin pack comes with various tips for hot cutting, and could be used for soldering on circuit boards, something I have nothing to do with. The direct gas flame is ultra quick, clean and shrinks the heat tubing as well.

Regards

Mike

[nismine01]

"I have seen bad crimps and bad soldering so i don't think either is a perfect solution and both can fail, i would trust a good soldered joint with heat shrink added before a crimped joint."

A good clean well taped and shrink wrapped joint is preferable wherever conditions and/or load, the crimps should (my opinion) only be used inside the vehicle and for very light loads.

The number of times I have had to rewire someones trailer plug because of corrosion in crimp fittings has been ridiculous.

My choice for wire soldering is one of those cheap little gas "Hot Devils", a twin pack comes with various tips for hot cutting, and could be used for soldering on circuit boards, something I have nothing to do with. The direct gas flame is ultra quick, clean and shrinks the heat tubing as well.

Regards

Mike

Oh, and I do have a 'Scope' iron at home

[Homestar]

That's a personal viewpoint. However, its not borne out by engineering facts. A crimped connection is governed by 3 variables. Wire gauge, crimp pressure and type of crimp. An operator can be trained very quickly to become highly accurate with a crimp tool and produce good crimps with close target parameters.
Now take soldering. The parameters are much less controllable. That's the reason why all solder joints used in military aircraft and spacecraft are x-rayed.
I say this because I've come across too many arguments stemming from lack of engineering knowledge on solder joint properties where your life could depend on it. Suppose someone on this forum takes it as gospel that a solder joint with covered with heatshrink is undisputably the best and goes ahead and does that for a critical connection. How do you know the solder had flowed correctly ? How do you know that flux hasn't built up between the metal-solder interface ? How do you check the joint is still intact when you cover it with heatshrink and install it in the vehicle, bending the connection point in the process ? Extend that over a few years ..with someone inexperienced in soldering.
That should be sufficient examples.
As you have said, there are bad crimps produced too. However, its easier to produce a good crimp than a good solder joint, in relation to automotive connections.

I agree with Shane - I believe your experience and viewpoints are quite valid and I've seen plenty of awful soldering in vehicles which wouldn't (and haven't) lasted 12 months, so I see your point, but personally, I hate the crappy crimps that most people use - I use the style Ron showed when connecting relays, etc, but for joining wires, etc I'll always solder. I have been doing this for decades and cars I've done this on 20 years ago are still fine - my RRC is a 'Classic' example (pun intended) - I modified the wiring loom over 20 years ago for the Farther in law when he first bought it - grafted some new column controls in from a Japanese vehicle and under the bonnet I moved some stuff which required extending the wires - these joints are all still fine and serviceable, over 300,000KM later.

I am an Electirican though and I've been soldering regularly since I was 13, so I do get your point about guaranteeing quality of work which a lot of well intentioned hobbyists may not be able to do on a consistent basis, but my experience shows that my soldering can live long term on a vehicle so that's the way I'll keep doing it. :)

Oh, and for soldering irons, I have about 8 I think, including good quality gas powered units to a home made scope iron (made in the training annex at the SEC when I was a first year apprentice), 2 temperature controlled units, a big arse thing I inherited from somewhere, and a variety of standard small to mid range irons.:)

On the car, I would usually grab the scope iron unless I'm doing something on a PCB or similar.

[DoubleChevron]

Some years back I had friends in the RAAF who worked on electronics. They had to do a high reliability soldering course. After every use of the solder, they had to snip off the end of the solder wire to expose fresh resin.



I use these crimp terminals

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/458.jpg

I have the right tool to fold the tabs in like this (actually, better than this):

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/459.jpg

I have lots of those terminals and the crimper to go with them. Unless the wire size and terminal is perfect, they still fail the "gentle tug" test .... almost every single time.

So I crimp them, and then solder the wire to the terminal ............... The terminals almost NEVER match the exact size required in automotive wiring in my experience :(

Looking at that picture, I reckon gravity would be enough to make that terminal fall off. There is no compression on the conductor or insulator at all.

seeya,
Shane L.

[Homestar]

I have lots of those terminals and the crimper to go with them. Unless the wire size and terminal is perfect, they still fail the "gentle tug" test .... almost every single time.

So I crimp them, and then solder the wire to the terminal ............... The terminals almost NEVER match the exact size required in automotive wiring in my experience :(

Looking at that picture, I reckon gravity would be enough to make that terminal fall off. There is no compression on the conductor or insulator at all.

seeya,
Shane L.

I left that bit out of my write up - I do the same. :D

Never had one come adrift. :)

[Old Farang]

Well, there is no way that I would call the terminal posted by p38arover a crimp terminal.
As posted by others, they need to soldered after folding the part over the bare conductor. Also, to help prevent the solder "wicking" up the conductor, pliers or similar should be used as a heat sink on the part of the terminal folded around the insulation while soldering.

[350RRC]

I have seen bad crimps and bad soldering so i dont think either is a perfect solution and both can fail, i would trust a good soldered joint with heat shrink added before a crimped joint.

I did all three (crimp, solder and wrap) on all joints 10 years ago when I rewired my engine bay, etc.

Absolutely no regrets.

DL

[bee utey]

It never ceases to amuse me to see how few people can crimp a connector properly, and resort to soldering to hide their poor workmanship. :p

I've spent the last 30+ years doing LPG conversions and associated electrics and crimped terminals form a reliable connection if done correctly, no soldering required, ever. Most importantly, both the terminals plus the tools must be of good quality, and the wire should fit the chosen terminal. If the amount of stripped wire doesn't fill the connector cavity, you either twist the wire to bulk it up or double it over. Crimp it until it squeaks and it'll never come off. Both the fully insulated and plated non insulated terminals work just fine without soldering. Thin plain brass female Faston connectors are a waste of time, soldered or not. Utilux used to make excellent non insulated plated connectors, I haven't been able to get any for a while. Some of the LPG gear I buy comes with little packets of suitable plated crimp connectors and none of them ever get soldered as they don't need it.

As for soldering, I tend to reserve that for joining wires inside harnesses, where the wire is fully supported by the neighbouring wires that protect the joints from mechanical stresses. That and decent heat shrink. :)

[Old Farang]

Utilux used to make excellent non insulated plated connectors

Yes, they did. And they were solder terminals, not a crimp tool in sight.

[Debacle]

Some years back I had friends in the RAAF who worked on electronics. They had to do a high reliability soldering course. After every use of the solder, they had to snip off the end of the solder wire to expose fresh resin.



I use these crimp terminals

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/458.jpg

I have the right tool to fold the tabs in like this (actually, better than this):

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/459.jpg

Is there a name for this tool or do you know where to get one ?

[p38arover]

Well, there is no way that I would call the terminal posted by p38arover a crimp terminal

Well, I dunno. A hell of a lot of them were used in cars and electrical appliances, e.g., whitegoods, and they were never soldered. The ones I have are Utilux.


Is there a name for this tool or do you know where to get one ?

I think I bought mine from Utilux. I think they are called Molex crimping tools. See http://www.overclock.net/t/1234028/anyone-used-the-moddiy-molex-crimper

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/450.jpg

[DoubleChevron]

Well, I dunno. A hell of a lot of them were used in cars and electrical appliances, e.g., whitegoods, and they were never soldered. The ones I have are Utilux.



I think I bought mine from Utilux. I think they are called Molex crimping tools. See Anyone used the modDIY Molex Crimper? (http://www.overclock.net/t/1234028/anyone-used-the-moddiy-molex-crimper)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/450.jpg

The biggest problem with those sorts of ratchet crimpers .................. Is fitting them where you need them (in dashboards, around the motor etc.....).

I have the ratchet crimps for insulated terminals too. I can't say I really trust them. With the non-insulated terminal crimpers pictured, at least you can see the crimp to verify it actually looks ok :)

seeya
Shane L.

[Geedublya]

Some years back I had friends in the RAAF who worked on electronics. They had to do a high reliability soldering course. After every use of the solder, they had to snip off the end of the solder wire to expose fresh resin.


HRHS - High Reliability Hand Soldering, joints were inspected under a microscope, no re-work permitted, joints that were not to specification had to be de-soldered and redone.
There was also a course called Mechanical Connections where looming and crimping were taught. In this course it was explained why correctly done crimp connections are better than solder for joining wires.

[jcamp]

HRHS - High Reliability Hand Soldering, joints were inspected under a microscope, no re-work permitted, joints that were not to specification had to be de-soldered and redone.

Pretty easy with flux and temp vaguely OK. 25x stereo shows if OK (10x headset for non life critical). Key thing is avoiding fatigue at the end of the wicking and that can be difficult. Fixing and Shrink tubing are the key here. With Instrument Cable (eg 256 x 0.05mm wire) 5 sets of graduated shrink tube out to 50mm is OK for non life critical situations.

[/QUOTE]There was also a course called Mechanical Connections where looming and crimping were taught. In this course it was explained why correctly done crimp connections are better than solder for joining wires.[/QUOTE]

They are better in that the wicking is avoided so not so tricky in terms of support to avoid fatigue BUT it is a cold welding process so:
- Ensure no oxidation, like not that old conector in the box and throw out the foot (or more) of old wire
- Need about 100 Kpsi so right tool ($ hundreds/thousands?) and for that cable/connector the right die ($ hundreds).


NOW what is used for ABS and electronic stability (the computer takes over the steering) etc. Of course any RHOS components should not be used for any computer stuff (life critical) although maybe not too much of an issue soldering general automotive wires with no ecu/can involvement.