New AS 5033 will make expansion too co$tly

[superquag]

Bet nobody noticed the latest disaster from the Clean Energy Council and the EL-042 Standards Committee.

In a nutshell, there's been some silly changes to AS/NZS 5033 which has to do with solar (PV) systems.

They came into effect July 16 / 2012 with a 3 month grace period.

The sting is in the tail, for those who have saved up to update or expand their PV arrays... Not only will the new bits have to conform, but the original equipment sort of becomes 'contaminated' and needs to also be 'upgraded'.

You will now be required to have ALL, that is ALL, DC cables run inside HD orange conduit, even in wall cavities... If there are any connectors in the line they now must be of the same brand and type as the one(s) they plug into.

A 'disconnect' (switch or Circuit-breaker) must be fitted to each set of panels, up on the roof, unless the Inverter is within 3 metres... These Circuit-breakers may NOT be 'polarity sensitive'.

So., if you add a panel or three, then ALL your old DC cables will have to be ripped out and put INto HD orange conduit, ALL the way between your panels and inverter... which means new (matching..) plugs fitted, your polarity-dependant CB's (if you have this type) chucked away and new ones fitted, then a second set of CB's retro-fitted to you existing solar panels...

Allow around one to two thousand dollars extra.

A consumer-friendly PV installer tells me that all of the changes will co$t in $$$ and reliability, for zero nett gain.

Once again, follow the money-trail, and tell me "who benefits?"

Still want to upgrade ? I won't be, not now.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:


But the absolute worst possible change is...

"...Plastic cable ties are not to be used as a primary means of support. (Clause 4.3.6.3)"

Listen to the anguised wail from ....(Watt's the collective noun for a group of Electricians?... Hmmmm....) - a Surge of Sparkies



:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p

[p38arover]

My cables are strung across the rafters with cable ties (the blue stuff is connected to the aircon ducting). There is no CB on the panels.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/917.jpg

This label on the fuse box is now white:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/918.jpg

[Slunnie]

Sounds like they're making things safer. Hopefully there will be a reduced risk of houses burning down and people being killed due to faulty and dodgy installations.

[superquag]

Cables running inside conduit runs warmer... therefore need to be derated. Yet TPS can be run all over the roof-space without conduit... and it's possibly 'live' 24/7 AND connected to a very low-impedance source of electrons...

My sparkie tells me that CBs on the roof are a too-regular earner for him. (Unreliable, especially in hot conditions..)

What's the call-out and fitting fee for replacing one of them? - along with the price of the CB.

How many units would you need to generate in order to pay for it ?

Not arguing, just plain cynical... Follow the money. :o

[isuzurover]

My install was done 30/06/12. Looks like it is up to the new code...

[p38arover]

Sounds like they're making things safer. Hopefully there will be a reduced risk of houses burning down and people being killed due to faulty and dodgy installations.

There will always be dodgy installs until the authorities start checking installs once again. Have a look at this thread to see just how many solar panels are installed on the wrong side of houses or under shade, shoddy installation, etc. (it will take you a while to look at all of them!):

Part 1: http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm't=1430969

Part 2: http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm't=1824702&#r1

You will be spending quite a bit of time on Nearmap.

[rovercare]

I think the new regs will add hundreds of dollars, not really a large concern

[superquag]

It appears "Dodgy Bros Quik & Dirty Installs" are based in Qld and NSW.... Or maybe we were lucky on our installation. ( 3.7kW in two strings. After exactly 12 months we are $512 in credit, rather than around $3,600 paid out in bills...)

My primary objection is... shifting the goal posts and forcing a retro-fit of the existing, legally and properly installed components, never mind the newer bits.

Obviously I'm assuming a competant and safe install to begin with...

[superquag]

I think the new regs will add hundreds of dollars, not really a large concern

Maybe, when done as part of an initial installation. - Cheaper labour costs... But to remove existing cabling, then re-run and replace it... not so cheap.

Lots of muttering and swearing up inside a cramped roof-space translates to Lots Labour co$ts

[rovercare]

Maybe, when done as part of an initial installation. - Cheaper labour costs... But to remove existing cabling, then re-run and replace it... not so cheap.

Lots of muttering and swearing up inside a cramped roof-space translates to Lots Labour co$ts

It's tedious working with existing systems, most system extensions will just become an additional system

Again, why not just fit prior to the grace period ending

I don't mind the changes, I run conduit in ceiling spaces these days anyhow

[Vern]

The conduit is because its classed as unprotected consumers mains. This was the major uproar when i attended the CEC week in Sydney a few weeks ago. That and the people buying solar off people from overseas, with no site inspection etc... good ol google earth.
They really don't want the whole insulation debarcle all over again.:angel:

[superquag]

I can sort-of understand why folk would buy from overseas... My REC/Motech 4600 (3.7kW) system set me back around $15K. Today I can buy a differant brand setup for about HALF that....- Since the govt 'gift' halved from 40 cents to 20 cents.
Assume similar quality as the above, then say 2/3 of what I paid.

"...The conduit is because its classed as unprotected consumers mains...."

Really ? - Does that mean all that TPS running all over my roof should be in HD orange conduit as well ??? - Only 10 years since we did the extensions. Legally. Did'nt need to be in any conduit of any colour...


Naturally, it has 'nothing' to do with What The Market Will Bear....

Of course I'm not cynical........ Follow the money trail :eek:

[Sheppie]

from an actual installers view wuith 15 years experience, it is a concerted effort to destroy the smaller solar installer.
The CEC is there for the big boys like Origin who in reality are the only ones that can competee in the 'new' market.
I am a bit cynical im sorry, this happens when you see around 8000 layoffs in the industry in NSW and an energy policy which means that any power that you do not usse immediately going free to the likes of essential (origin by another name).
so in effect if you install a system in NSW yuou become a subsidised generatior for them.
Also if you expand your system in NSW then you face fines of $110,000.
This is not a typo. And this means installing additional modules onto an existing approved inverter.

At last count, there had been NIL houses catch on fire in Australia, yes there have been some modules burn out but this has not resulted in any house fires.
How many washing machines burn out every year and result in house fires? (about the same number as for PV installations, that is nil), or more worryingly, how about dichroic (halogen) downlights? - they are Very dangerous - yet these industries do not keep being harrassed.

my two cents worth, I know im new here and ill probably cop flack but this is a topic really close to my heart, I have seen to many businesses destroyed and massive losses incurred by the former renewable energy industry due to poor policies by all governments in the 15 years ive been around. It really SUX sacking people.

[Vern]

Really ? - Does that mean all that TPS running all over my roof should be in HD orange conduit as well ??? - Only 10 years since we did the extensions. Legally. Did'nt need to be in any conduit of any colour...


Naturally, it has 'nothing' to do with What The Market Will Bear....

Of course I'm not cynical........ Follow the money trail :eek:

No conduit needed for your tps as its a protected final sub circuit.
Silly thing about the conduit is it has to be H/D (orange) anywhere INSIDE a building, and M/D (grey) anywhere outside a building. This came from the horses mouth at the production day they had when it was Q&A time.:eek:

As for buying cheap from overseas, i can sell someone a $500 inverter as well, its about buying over the phone with no site inspection etc.. which is mandatory going by the CEC regulations.

[zedcars]

[QUOTE=p38arover;1739149]There will always be dodgy installs until the authorities start checking installs once again.

Yes the same over here, new codes are being written all the time!

As a funny, Me and the missus physically built our dwelling place about 15 years ago . The house and the garage are separate, built a bit like an old English house (someone quoted on this forum like a New Queenslander!) with coach house for the cars. The main distribution board, breakers & meters are mounted on the garage exterior with spur to the house. I built it with view to install solar at a later date.

I rough wired the garage myself, on a separate permit while the contractor I knew got his crew and a pulled permit for the house.
When it was time to do the rough inspection the inspector snagged the professional install with about 30 odd corrections. He left saying he wouldn't do anymore checks until he was allowed in that goddamn garage!:mad:

Stan the contractor said to me "Dennis I don't know what he is going to say about your rough install, its wired all like a car all neat run lines to the outlets etc". I called for an inspection the next day!

Inspector arrived, we all strolled into the building--the inspector immediately said
"Now this is how it should be done"! Nice job! --and wrote out the pass tag!!:o

Stan then said "Dennis this is what's wrong with this set up, you are supposed to be the amateur, me the professional with all the training, certificates, code knowledge etc !

Ah I retorted with a smile "But you lot know enough to be bloody dangerous"!:)
I got a quick quip in return which I shouldn't quote on the forum!!!:o:D

Cheers Dennis
Zedcars

[superquag]

Dennis,
Friend of mine was in the same boat... Being a bright fellow and more than handy with electrical stuff, he did the wiring in his house exensions.. running cables, chasing, conduiting etc.. the Full Monty. Another (Sparky) mate checked and signed off on it, and told me later on how embarrased he was to see such neat, safe and perfect workmanship...:(

- You'd like the New Zealand system... The householder can do all his - or her - own wiring and bring it to the main meter for connection, where an Inspector will check, sign off and power-up. Naturally the work must be to 'standards'...which the NZ government is only too happy to show you.

http://www.med.govt.nz/energysafety/about/publications/publications-for-consumers/new-zealand-electrical-code-of-practice-for-homeowner-occupiers-electrical-wiring-work-in-domestic-installations

Australia and NZ share electrical standards etc, but we Aussie blokes are deemed (by our gov't) to be less competant than a NZ blonde ... :-(

[rovercare]

Dennis,
Friend of mine was in the same boat... Being a bright fellow and more than handy with electrical stuff, he did the wiring in his house exensions.. running cables, chasing, conduiting etc.. the Full Monty. Another (Sparky) mate checked and signed off on it, and told me later on how embarrased he was to see such neat, safe and perfect work...:(


That's easily achievable, but finding someone who wants to pay the bill is different;)

Hell, most of us, could loom your cables, ferulle every core and do a fantastic job on hourly rate:D

By the way, the Tfit will be announced start of september allegedly

[superquag]

"Tfit" ????

[rovercare]

"Tfit" ????

Sorry, your not in Vic, irrelevant

[superquag]

Ah, understand: - New installs over here are on 20 cents/unit. The utility pays 7 cents as well, making 27cents.

[zedcars]

That's easily achievable, but finding someone who wants to pay the bill is different;)

Hell, most of us, could loom your cables, ferulle every core and do a fantastic job on hourly rate:D

By the way, the Tfit will be announced start of september allegedly

Rovercare
Exactly the same explanation I got from my mate Stan the Yankee leckie , when we discussed the merits of my MV chassis way in a simple garage with about 6 outlets (120v ) and a 240 for welding hi cap use, plus a garage door lift and a string of fluorescent strips. Versus his install in my 2 story dwelling.
Cheers Dennis

[zedcars]

Dennis,
Friend of mine was in the same boat... Being a bright fellow and more than handy with electrical stuff, he did the wiring in his house exensions.. running cables, chasing, conduiting etc.. the Full Monty. Another (Sparky) mate checked and signed off on it, and told me later on how embarrased he was to see such neat, safe and perfect workmanship...:(

- You'd like the New Zealand system... The householder can do all his - or her - own wiring and bring it to the main meter for connection, where an Inspector will check, sign off and power-up. Naturally the work must be to 'standards'...which the NZ government is only too happy to show you.

New Zealand Electrical Code of Practice for homeowner/occupier's electrical wiring work in domestic installations | Energy Safety (http://www.med.govt.nz/energysafety/about/publications/publications-for-consumers/new-zealand-electrical-code-of-practice-for-homeowner-occupiers-electrical-wiring-work-in-domestic-installations)

Australia and NZ share electrical standards etc, but we Aussie blokes are deemed (by our gov't) to be less competant than a NZ blonde ... :-(

Superquag
Sound like the Brit/Pom set up!
Being from that island I fixed up a few houses to live in during my younger years.
One I remember was a stone cottage built in 1808 and had a lecky system of sorts bunged in during the early 20th century and held to the plaster walls by staples and bent nails .
When I rehabbed it from a hovel that had cows in it during the 70's the ring main system had been introduced so I ran in chases and conduits plus two additional ring mains for the cooker and range etc.. In fact my first venture into the world of DIY leckying.

The day of inspection eventually came along so that I could get some power hooked up to the house. The inspector came in with his test kit and ran through the installation looking for polarity, grounds (earths etc) etc.
During the check he asks "You a professional electrician or home owner"?
Home owner install I quipped! Hmm!
He gets to the boiler hot water tank where I had the immersion ground strap on the water pipe -----testing it with his meter he says
"thurs a high resistance here mate "!
Like wot said I ?
Not telling yah lad its just too bloody to high!
I knew he was lying because i had just tested it, being forewarned it was a popular failure point!:angel:

So out with a file I gave it a scratch!!!
Check it now!--well s'pose it will do!

Ahh well sign the ticket, connect me up and bugger off!
Which he did muttering about the utility company distribution box made in 1918!
I swear the wheel inside was about to fly off when switched on the cooker and pulled about 3.5 Kw.:o:)

Ps Where are you north or south island!
Cheers Dennis

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Dennis,
Friend of mine was in the same boat... Being a bright fellow and more than handy with electrical stuff, he did the wiring in his house exensions.. running cables, chasing, conduiting etc.. the Full Monty. Another (Sparky) mate checked and signed off on it, and told me later on how embarrased he was to see such neat, safe and perfect workmanship...:( ....<snip> When I bought my house in an older Sydney suburb, the cotton wrapped rubber insulated wiring was not only unsafe the addtions the PO had done were outright dangerous, like the power to the garage in old gas pipe, 2 to 6 inches under the lawn carrying a pair of extension leads with twisted together ends covered in electrical tape, the joint between two pipes was open to the soil.

My first action was to completely re-wire the house, everything is pin clipped even in the roof space (conduit not required at the time). Then a sparky mate came around and checked every point and switch before screwing them to the wall, then he did the new meter box, followed by a disconnect re-connect of the mains to the new meterbox and wiring. My mate died of cardiomyopathy not too long after.

A couple of years later I needed a dedicated circuit for a spar, so contracted a local sparky, the wiring was looped from bearer to bearer without any fixing until the 1 metre of conduit along the wall to the spar. I rang the authorities to be informed this style of wiring was legal. Don't tell me about professional standards of work! :mad:

[superquag]

Ps Where are you north or south island!
Cheers Dennis

West Island Dennis, West... :p

[superquag]

When I bought my house in an older Sydney suburb, the cotton wrapped rubber insulated wiring was not only unsafe the addtions the PO had done were outright dangerous, like the power to the garage in old gas pipe, 2 to 6 inches under the lawn carrying a pair of extension leads with twisted together ends covered in electrical tape, the joint between two pipes was open to the soil. ...

......to be informed this style of wiring was legal. Don't tell me about professional standards of work! :mad:

That's the point, the PO had no idea, was'nt interested or did it with malice aforethought.- Pick one !

Under the Island schemes on both sides of the globe, the homeowner may do his own bits & pieces providing standards etc are met, but is not obliged to. - Sparkies are NOT an endandered species in either country. :eek:

Given the average (mentally) lazy Australian, the take-up rate for DIY electrical would be pretty low, especially if it was going to be inspected for compliance.

I'm given to understand that our accident figures from illegal DIY electrical work is quite high, compared to NZ's figures for inspected/approved legal home-owner modifications & installs...


Industry Standards. (or, what you can get away with...)
When we had our house extension done, the Sparky had no idea what a 'drip loop' was, or what double-folding accomplished or why it was done 'In the Olden days'. He was quite dismissive of such time-wasting, as the current use of multi-strand wire instead of solid, obviated any need.
- This from a Tradesman who'd damaged his health from using teeth to strip TPS etc for 15+ years !!!

No wonder he was mentally-challenged.:mad:

[isuzurover]

...

I'm given to understand that our accident figures from illegal DIY electrical work is quite high, compared to NZ's figures for inspected/approved legal home-owner modifications & installs...



I am not sure the stats would back you up.

About 50% of the confined space deaths (a ceiling is classified as a confined space) in WA in the past 30 years have been professional (and apprentice) sparkys.

Most of these have been due to degraded insulation on old cables [however the wiring was legally/professionally installed - just a long time ago...]. In none of the reports is there mention of DIY wiring being at fault.

In one case (shopping centre), the sparky isolated the wrong circuit, and started stripping the wires without checking if it was still live...

Also, the ABS/NCIS stats show that most electrocution deaths occur during paid work, and most are due to overhead powerlines.

[superquag]

I am not sure the stats would back you up.



Only the stats on homeowner work, legal or otherwise. - I should have clarified that betterer. :o
A significant number of Aussie DIY's either killing, shocking or potentially damaging... compared to the NZ's/ Poms who do the job properly and legally, because they're encouraged to do so by the gov't. It's a no-brainer to see that an officially signed-off job will cause no problems, with or without a Trade Certificate.

And you're correct. If your profession is working with bitey's you risk being bitten, deservedly or not.

My #1 son the Sparky's Gopher, tells me enough horror-stories of 'professional' mistakes and Standards being broadly interpreted... His own employer nearly zapped him once.:mad:

[isuzurover]

Only the stats on homeowner work, legal or otherwise. - I should have clarified that betterer. :o
A significant number of Aussie DIY's either killing, shocking or potentially damaging... compared to the NZ's/ Poms who do the job properly and legally, because they're encouraged to do so by the gov't. It's a no-brainer to see that an officially signed-off job will cause no problems, with or without a Trade Certificate.

...

The stats do not show a significant difference between AU and NZ.

NZ averages 0.7 deaths per million due to electrocution per annum, Australian states range between 0.6 and 2. Not significantly different.

Only 25% of AU "non occupational" electrocutions are due to fixed wiring.

http://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/EnergySafety/PDF/Publications/Electrical_Incident.pdf