Defender Coils

[Dockstrada]

Hi All , Just wanted to know which was the best brand 2” lift kit available for the Defender without compromising the stand ride comfort .
I don’t want to have modded beast, just want a little extra clearance for the 265 tyres and a more level look .

My 110 has a front bar plus I will be adding a winch , as you can see in the pic it sits already very low in the front ,I’m sure after adding the winch it will sag even more .

I called ARB today for coil pricing, seem ok $225 for both front and the same again for the rear .
This will give me a 2” lift with 100kg front upgrade for winch and bar and 300kg for the rear or the hard option for the rear which is 500kg .


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/481.jpg

[Tombie]

I'm afraid a TDCi can't just be lifted 2" without doing more.

You need a wide angle DC front tail shaft minimum...

I'd look at just adding HD LR front springs to it...

[Dockstrada]

I'm afraid a TDCi can't just be lifted 2" without doing more.

You need a wide angle DC front tail shaft minimum...

I'd look at just adding HD LR front springs to it...

Ok that sounds good , Are they LR OEM part or is there a after market option ?

[Naks]

There is a very valid argument for NOT lifting the Puma, but rather to fit airbag helpers in the rear for heavy loads.

See Defender2 - View topic - polyair rear springs / Puma (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic14633.html)

[Dockstrada]

There is a very valid argument for NOT lifting the Puma, but rather to fit airbag helpers in the rear for heavy loads.

See Defender2 - View topic - polyair rear springs / Puma (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic14633.html)

Ok so I can go for Polly Air in the rear as it looks like a logical option and also gives you control of the rear end.

I then just need to sort the front , So It just needs to be picked up by about 1” will the HD LR springs that Tombie suggested sort this out ?

Or can i just spin up a 1" Acetal spacer on the lathe for the front ?

[rick130]

Be really, really careful and read up on all the posts pertaining to lifting TDci engined Defenders.

You can't do to them what was so bloody easy with a V8/Isuzu/Tdi/TD5 90/110/130, all the driveline angles are changed and it creates problems without using a wide angle DC shaft in the front as Tombie suggested.

Many new owners have been stung.

[ScottyD]

After going through the whole lifting a puma process myself I wouldn't be too concerned about drive line alterations. Reading around, it is a pretty common change, just ensure you buy a decent Double Cardinal Shaft. Steer clear of Bailey Morris (not designed for high speed/dusty conditions), I can recommend a Tom Woods Shaft (I bought mine from Les Richmond Automotive).

The difficult part is getting the correct springs to get the car level without having too much lift or not enough lift. If your load varies a lot, then Polly Airs would be the way to go. I'm on my 3rd set of springs (Original, LR HD, Terrafirma Mediums) and still haven't got the desired level. My next step is to get some custom made springs from Les Richmond Automotive. They seem to know what they are on about and have a pretty good reputation. I'm just hesitating on whether I should soften up the rear a bit more...

Do not buy springs which have too many coils or are stupid heavy, they will kill your articulation.

Hope that helps,
Scott

[LowRanger]

I don't know why people always want to guess what to fit or take a one size fits all package from retailers,when it comes to suspension?
And then they scream blue murder when it turns out to be something different to what they expected.
Do it right and do it once.

I would suggest that you wait until you have your winch and had it fitted,before doing anything further.Then work out what you would normally carry in the vehicle,and put it in the vehicle.Then either take it to a public weighbridge and get both ends and each corner weighed individually,or take it to someone like Ultimate Suspension (seeing that you are in Sydney) and they will weigh it for you and will then be able to recommend a correct spring to give you the requirements you are looking for,and can custom valve shocks if you so desire.
You might then have half a chance of getting something that will actually work.
And yes you will need to organise a double cardan front shaft,and I concur with the Tom Woods shaft,but I would recommend you get it direct from the U.S.A. as it will be a lot cheaper and you will get it just as quick
And as an aside,I would keep the ride height fairly close to standard,and fitting 265's should only require you to adjust the steering lock stops to maintain clearance.

[rick130]

[snip]

I would suggest that you wait until you have your winch and had it fitted,before doing anything further.Then work out what you would normally carry in the vehicle,and put it in the vehicle.Then either take it to a public weighbridge and get both ends and each corner weighed individually,or take it to someone like Ultimate Suspension (seeing that you are in Sydney) and they will weigh it for you and will then be able to recommend a correct spring to give you the requirements you are looking for,and can custom valve shocks if you so desire.
You might then have half a chance of getting something that will actually work.
[snip]

Bloody good suggestion Wayne.

[copba]

I'd look at just adding HD LR front springs to it...

Yeah I'd just be installing LR Heavy duty front springs, as Tombie suggested.

That's waht i've done mine was saggy at the front with the weight of the bar, and side rails; now it's nice and level and handles and rides well.

It doesn't need a suspension lift, it sits taller than most toymota's, and Datsuns :wasntme:

[TimNZ]

I had LR fit HD front springs, (to retain warranty), because I have an ARB bar and winch with synthetic rope. Even though the car sat only 1" above standard the front prop still had binding issues. I have since refitted the standard springs.

Cheers,

Tim

[n plus one]

Personally, I'd be inclined to go a DC shaft even if you're only bringing the front back to the max unsagged standard height.

It's no big deal about lifting Pumas though, just a bit painful for the guinea pigs...

[chook73]

I don't know why people always want to guess what to fit or take a one size fits all package from retailers,when it comes to suspension?
And then they scream blue murder when it turns out to be something different to what they expected.
Do it right and do it once.

I would suggest that you wait until you have your winch and had it fitted,before doing anything further.Then work out what you would normally carry in the vehicle,and put it in the vehicle.Then either take it to a public weighbridge and get both ends and each corner weighed individually,or take it to someone like Ultimate Suspension (seeing that you are in Sydney) and they will weigh it for you and will then be able to recommend a correct spring to give you the requirements you are looking for,and can custom valve shocks if you so desire.
You might then have half a chance of getting something that will actually work.
And yes you will need to organise a double cardan front shaft,and I concur with the Tom Woods shaft,but I would recommend you get it direct from the U.S.A. as it will be a lot cheaper and you will get it just as quick
And as an aside,I would keep the ride height fairly close to standard,and fitting 265's should only require you to adjust the steering lock stops to maintain clearance.

Having been through the guessing process I cannot agree with Wayne more. I tried a few different springs and didn't get it right so I took it to ken at ultimate who assures me he will get it right and guarantees his work. It got weighed the other day and he is custom making me progressive springs for less than my terrafirmers cost. And the rest of the package is exceptionally well priced.

Having experienced the dc shafts there is a bit more to it as the dc will possibly foul on your sway bar on articulation so you will need to consider spacers.


Sent from my iPhone using Thumbs

[Naks]

... he is custom making me progressive springs for less than my terrafirmers cost. And the rest of the package is exceptionally well priced.


Just remember that you will have to get the dampers to match the springs

[flagg]

Can't agree with wayne more. Also, suspension is often the first thing people want to change.. but it should really be the last.. you only really know what the weight and balance is after you have finished kitting it out.

[chook73]

Just remember that you will have to get the dampers to match the springs

Yes it's a fully matched system so springs, dampers and sway bars. I had so many temporary fixes while I fitted portals etc it's finally a relief to know its being done top to bottom.


Sent from my iPhone using Thumbs

[Dockstrada]

So today I went to have some new rubber fitted I went for some BF Goodrich 265/75R 16's they look nice and fill the guards well. I have noticed that the ride is smoother and the handling is more planted.

On the way to have the rubber fitted I dropped in to ARB St Peters to picked up a set of front coils, part number 2767 X which are for winch and bar fitted vehicles giving a up to 110kg capacity in the front plus between 30 and 40mm of lift .

The fitting took about 1 hour with a little help from Linde.

There was no need to remove the shocks just undo the bottom shock mount bolt, unbolt the sway bar push the shocks all the way up the tower get Linde to lift the front while the diff was on stands then I simply R/R the springs .

So now I have standard coils in the rear and Old Man Emu in the front, I’m happy with the result. Total lift at the front was aprox 35mm which leveled out the front and was what I was hoping to achieve.

Next I will install some Poly Air's to the rear.

I haven't noticed any strange noises from the drive train. I also checked the uni alignment and it looks good, the diff has rotated but not much, all looks nice not much angle change at all. I guess the diff has rotated back to its original position from the coils sagging in the beginning.

The ride seems nice and firm not harsh I’d say 10% firmer than standard, keeping in mind I have no winch fitted yet ,so this should soften it a little more.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/198.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/199.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/200.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/201.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/202.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/203.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1639.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/204.jpg

[chops110]

I agree, I went for the same BFG muddies in 265/75 on the standard 16" alloys...I think this is a good defender tyre for all except beach driving where I find they dig holes easily and I have to air right down.

Plus i fitted LR heavy duty front springs to correct the sags from my steel bullbar and winch (loaded with good old fashioned wire rope). Nice and level; don't think it needs a lift; handles well now too.

You have a sharp looking vehicle there too!

Cheers

Chops

[Dockstrada]

I agree, I went for the same BFG muddies in 265/75 on the standard 16" alloys...I think this is a good defender tyre for all except beach driving where I find they dig holes easily and I have to air right down.

Plus i fitted LR heavy duty front springs to correct the sags from my steel bullbar and winch (loaded with good old fashioned wire rope). Nice and level; don't think it needs a lift; handles well now too.

You have a sharp looking vehicle there too!

Cheers

Chops

I’m glad I went for the All-Terrains, I have Mickey Thompson muddies on the f250 and it raws like a lion on the black stuff.

Did you need to fit a Double Cardinal Shaft to the front?

I would think that with such a small lift it would not be necessary, I did have a look at the angle of the diff in relation to the transfer case and there is not much difference in the relative angle maybe a few degrees.

I have noticed a faint intermittent tweet tweet tweet from the rear at around 60kph , but that maybe pre existing as the other tyres were much louder than the All-Terrains. I’m thinking Uni’s.

[rick130]

[snip]

Did you need to fit a Double Cardinal Shaft to the front?


FWIW when you go and order one, it's a double cardan joint ;)



[snip]
and there is not much difference in the relative angle maybe a few degrees.
[snip]
Hmm, methinks you need to put a protractor/inclinometer/angle gauge across both flange faces.
The diff pinion points up at the t/case, the t/case output shaft points up towards the top of the grille.
This angle is more severe than the V8/Isuzu/Tdi/TD5 drivetrain
I'd be interested to know what the included angle is ;)

There was a pic floating around somewhere of the driveline in the chassis but I can't find it ATM

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/153408-puma-springs-shocks.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/149736-resonating-vibration-110-a.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/109899-help-anyone-raised-puma-big-trouble.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/137912-warranty-issues-vibration.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/118840-110-defender-front-drive-shaft-noise.html

[edit] sorry about the quotes, etc, but for whatever reason the system keeps adding quote tags after I've deleted them :eek:

[87County]

[QUOTE=rick130;1748779]FWIW when you go and order one, it's a double cardan joint ;)
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]


:D that would be for the non-religious then ? ...

[Dockstrada]

FWIW when you go and order one, it's a double cardan joint ;)

Hmm, methinks you need to put a protractor/inclinometer/angle gauge across both flange faces.
The diff pinion points up at the t/case, the t/case output shaft points up towards the top of the grille.
This angle is more severe than the V8/Isuzu/Tdi/TD5 drivetrain
I'd be interested to know what the included angle is ;)

There was a pic floating around somewhere of the driveline in the chassis but I can't find it ATM

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/153408-puma-springs-shocks.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/149736-resonating-vibration-110-a.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/109899-help-anyone-raised-puma-big-trouble.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/137912-warranty-issues-vibration.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/118840-110-defender-front-drive-shaft-noise.html

[edit] sorry about the quotes, etc, but for whatever reason the system keeps adding quote tags after I've deleted them :eek:

I might do the protractor/inclinometer/angle gauge across both flange faces to check it out , but I just had a reply from Tom Wood as follows ,;)

Vince:

While I do not want to un-sell something, I am not sure you really need a new drive shaft, and I would feel uncomfortable selling you something you really don’t need. Of course, if you don’t need it but still want it, I am happy to take your money. J

The amount of lift you have installed will not usually create a length issue. If you have encountered a vibration problem and can position your differential correctly for the double cardan drive shaft, then yes, a double cardan drive shaft might be a good choice for you. You may find useful information at these links:

http://www.4xshaft.com/Landrover.html (http://www.4xshaft.com/Landrover.html)
http://www.4xshaft.com/techinfo.html (http://www.4xshaft.com/techinfo.html)
http://www.4xshaft.com/tech_slopesVSangles.html (http://www.4xshaft.com/tech_slopesVSangles.html)
http://www.4xshaft.com/driveline101.html (http://www.4xshaft.com/driveline101.html)
http://www.4xshaft.com/vibrations.html (http://www.4xshaft.com/vibrations.html)

[rick130]

I might do the protractor/inclinometer/angle gauge across both flange faces to check it out , but I just had a reply from Tom Wood as follows ,;)

Vince:

While I do not want to un-sell something, I am not sure you really need a new drive shaft, and I would feel uncomfortable selling you something you really don’t need. Of course, if you don’t need it but still want it, I am happy to take your money. J

The amount of lift you have installed will not usually create a length issue. If you have encountered a vibration problem and can position your differential correctly for the double cardan drive shaft, then yes, a double cardan drive shaft might be a good choice for you. You may find useful information at these links:

http://www.4xshaft.com/Landrover.html (http://www.4xshaft.com/Landrover.html)
http://www.4xshaft.com/techinfo.html (http://www.4xshaft.com/techinfo.html)
http://www.4xshaft.com/tech_slopesVSangles.html (http://www.4xshaft.com/tech_slopesVSangles.html)
http://www.4xshaft.com/driveline101.html (http://www.4xshaft.com/driveline101.html)
http://www.4xshaft.com/vibrations.html (http://www.4xshaft.com/vibrations.html)

All due respect, but Tom will never have seen a TDci Defender which as I've already said, has an increased driveline angle to earlier models.

Even Tdi's with 105+mm between the bump stops @ static ride height get uni bind at full droop and longer (only 10" stroke) dampers with the OE driveshaft/unis and someone on here reckoned the TDCi driveshaft/uni's had less operating angle again.
A Defender with a 2" lift is a lot higher than a Disco or RRC with a 2" lift as their static ride height is a lot lower to start with, and that's what Tom would mainly see.
There were only 500 Defenders ever imported into the US in the mid/late nineties.

All I'm suggesting is be careful, many on here have already been burnt with TDci 'fenders and a mild lift.

[Dockstrada]

All due respect, but Tom will never have seen a TDci Defender which as I've already said, has an increased driveline angle to earlier models.

Even Tdi's with 105+mm between the bump stops @ static ride height get uni bind at full droop and longer (only 10" stroke) dampers with the OE driveshaft/unis and someone on here reckoned the TDCi driveshaft/uni's had less operating angle again.
A Defender with a 2" lift is a lot higher than a Disco or RRC with a 2" lift as their static ride height is a lot lower to start with, and that's what Tom would mainly see.
There were only 500 Defenders ever imported into the US in the mid/late nineties.

All I'm suggesting is be careful, many on here have already been burnt with TDci 'fenders and a mild lift.

I see your point, I just measured the bump stop distance and its 125mm so from its original sagged position its lifted 20mm .

Couldn’t fitting some extended radial arms allowing the diff to rotate back to standard position solve this problem?

[rick130]

I see your point, I just measured the bump stop distance and its 125mm so from its original sagged position its lifted 20mm .

Couldn’t fitting some extended radial arms allowing the diff to rotate back to standard position solve this problem?


No way would yours be 125mm between the bump stops, if it is :eek:

I had to fit 17" free length 220lb/in springs to get 120mm with a bar/winch on a Tdi, (Tdi/TD5 HD springs are 15/15.5" free length, 225lb/in) they then settled to around 115/117mm after a few weeks.
At that height the uni's were binding

Standard ride height with a winch and bar are around 65mm between the bump stop and axle pad.

If you try and rotate the diff you'll lose your castor and the car will wander all over the road.
Use castor corrected radius arms and you make the pinion angle worse.
Use eccentric bushes to correct the castor and ditto.

The only real way to 'fix' castor and maintain the correct pinion angle is to slot the swivel bolt holes and rotate the swivel housing.


When you start playing with suspension you have to think the whole thing through, you change one thing and you alter everything else too.

[Dockstrada]

No way would yours be 125mm between the bump stops, if it is :eek:

I had to fit 17" free length 220lb/in springs to get 120mm with a bar/winch on a Tdi, (Tdi/TD5 HD springs are 15/15.5" free length, 225lb/in) they then settled to around 115/117mm after a few weeks.
At that height the uni's were binding

Standard ride height with a winch and bar are around 65mm between the bump stop and axle pad.

If you try and rotate the diff you'll lose your castor and the car will wander all over the road.
Use castor corrected radius arms and you make the pinion angle worse.
Use eccentric bushes to correct the castor and ditto.

The only real way to 'fix' castor and maintain the correct pinion angle is to slot the swivel bolt holes and rotate the swivel housing.


When you start playing with suspension you have to think the whole thing through, you change one thing and you alter everything else too.

Correct me if I’m wrong, from what I understand it’s the Uni’s binding on full articulation that it the problem.

So today on the way home I took the Defender off road for an hour and pushed the diff to full articulation several times by driving the left and right fronts on separate occasions up steep embankments getting opposites 1 front and 1 rear off the ground.

I didn’t see or hear a problem, I could just hear the springs settling in a bit In the start.

I also re checked the bumper to pad measurement after and it has settled down a bit to 120mm now, that is from the bottom of the rubber triangular stopper to the pad on the diff.

I must add the T/C works great, this Defender sure make my 100 series Cruiser look bad , I’ve been through this same spot with the cruiser and needed snatching a few times , it was a walk in the park with the 110 .

[PAT303]

It's the vibration that causes most people to change to a DC shaft,it's well known and a DC shaft fix's any issue's with the TDCi and lifts so it's a non event in IMO.MM LR have DC shafts for 180 pounds plus postage. Pat

[ScottyD]

Apparently, the normal 'test' to see if you need a DC prop shaft following a lift on a Puma is to get up to highway speed and back off. If you hear an awful 'clanking spanners' noise, get a DC prop shaft. Please note that I don't recommend doing this. It would be far safer to look for binding whilst the car is stationary (picture car raised on axle stands).

Anyway, you will see several 'test' references in:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/109899-help-anyone-raised-puma-big-trouble.html

The above thread is a fantastic source of information.

Also, with a lift you have not changed the amount of travel in your suspension, rather you have changed the static height, starting point. Therefore the test of getting the front to full articulate is void. If you add longer travel shocks into the equation, then that is a different.

Hope that helps,
Scott

[Dockstrada]

FWIW when you go and order one, it's a double cardan joint ;)

Hmm, methinks you need to put a protractor/inclinometer/angle gauge across both flange faces.
The diff pinion points up at the t/case, the t/case output shaft points up towards the top of the grille.
This angle is more severe than the V8/Isuzu/Tdi/TD5 drivetrain
I'd be interested to know what the included angle is ;)

There was a pic floating around somewhere of the driveline in the chassis but I can't find it ATM

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/153408-puma-springs-shocks.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/149736-resonating-vibration-110-a.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/109899-help-anyone-raised-puma-big-trouble.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/137912-warranty-issues-vibration.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/118840-110-defender-front-drive-shaft-noise.html

[edit] sorry about the quotes, etc, but for whatever reason the system keeps adding quote tags after I've deleted them :eek:

After reading through all of these links, thanks rick130 my head is spinning.
I found the following links. The first one I found gave a measurement from the center of the wheel arch to the bottom of the brow which ranged between 525mm and 550mm, seems I sit right in the middle at 540mm, which didn’t confirm much , just that I was within this range .

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/109899-help-anyone-raised-puma-big-trouble-17.html#post1300627

Then thanks to one__iota I found this that confirmed the standard heights, which confirms that I’m with in the standard height.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/90-110-130-defender-county/27344d1280384508-help-anyone-raised-puma-big-trouble-searchrvdresult.do.pdf

[Dockstrada]

Apparently, the normal 'test' to see if you need a DC prop shaft following a lift on a Puma is to get up to highway speed and back off. If you hear an awful 'clanking spanners' noise, get a DC prop shaft. Please note that I don't recommend doing this. It would be far safer to look for binding whilst the car is stationary (picture car raised on axle stands).

Anyway, you will see several 'test' references in:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/109899-help-anyone-raised-puma-big-trouble.html

The above thread is a fantastic source of information.

Also, with a lift you have not changed the amount of travel in your suspension, rather you have changed the static height, starting point. Therefore the test of getting the front to full articulate is void. If you add longer travel shocks into the equation, then that is a different.

Hope that helps,
Scott

Yeah I did the highway test today another mate sugested that , no noise .

I used the standard shocks as i new with extra length it may cause a problem.

Thanks

[rick130]

[snip]
seems I sit right in the middle at 540mm, which didn’t confirm much , just that I was within this range .

[snip]

Yep, 20mm taller than mine ATM at that point, and mine is measuring 105mm between the bump stops, it's dropped from it's original 117/114mm after the initial settling 8-9 years ago.

I've maximised droop with long travel shocks, raised towers and longer brake lines and I had to remove the front anti-roll bar as it fouled the front prop shaft at full droop.

Mate, would you be able to accurately mic the wire diameter of the new springs and accurately count the coils please ? (it roughly looks like 6.75 winds, including the closed and ground ends)

I really want to work out the rate, they look stiff.

[edit] and here's some more TDCi bump stop heights http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/157264-puma-suspension-height.html

[Dockstrada]

Yep, 20mm taller than mine ATM at that point, and mine is measuring 105mm between the bump stops, it's dropped from it's original 117/114mm after the initial settling 8-9 years ago.

I've maximised droop with long travel shocks, raised towers and longer brake lines and I had to remove the front anti-roll bar as it fouled the front prop shaft at full droop.

Mate, would you be able to accurately mic the wire diameter of the new springs and accurately count the coils please ? (it roughly looks like 6.75 winds, including the closed and ground ends)

I really want to work out the rate, they look stiff.

[edit] and here's some more TDCi bump stop heights http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/157264-puma-suspension-height.html

Which confirms my 125mm between the bump stops . I dont think I looking for an extream setup so I im happy where is sits now. May just add Polly Air's to the rear lets wait and see.

Yeah 6.75 winds would be close and its 16.4 mm including powder coating so I guess 16mm would be your closest .

[uninformed]

I think what Rick is saying is that 125mm is more than + 20mm increase. My static height on oem springs was 75mm. This on a tdi.....

[Dockstrada]

I think what Rick is saying is that 125mm is more than + 20mm increase. My static height on oem springs was 75mm. This on a tdi.....

I dont know about that , I take it as mine is 20mm higher from center of hub to guard than his and he has 105mm at bump stop , where I have 120mm .

[chook73]

Nice truck, You will notice prop shaft vibration very quickly and easily, with mine there was no loud noise or dancing girls. 80km/h take you foot off the accelerator and there is a slight shudder that goes through the vehicle. If you have this remove the prop shaft, put the CDL in and do the same again and it should have disappeared.

My recommendation would be the Tom woods, although I haven't used it, it seems to be the only one that hasn't destructed on anyone yet and the guys running them all seem happy with them. My Bailey Morris let me down after just 19,000km and I have yet to fit the replacement as it let go on Drover the other week and he is due to get Gibsons to look at it and rectify the problem.

As for the prop shaft bind on the front sway bar under articulation I fitted sway bar spacers (Daniel at mulgo has the measurements) and that solved that problem.

Regards
Iain

[uninformed]

I dont know about that , I take it as mine is 20mm higher from center of hub to guard than his and he has 105mm at bump stop , where I have 120mm .

I was referring to post #25 by Rick with regards to his opening comment. Forget his hub to gaurd measurement. BTW you will notice he fitted +2 inch coils to get 117mm....so that leaves him at about 67-70 OEM BS space....a bit off the 105mm yours would have been to only get +20mm lift to 125mm

why measure center of hub to gaurd??? guards are flex deformed things and I doubt 2 would be the same, hub center by eye is also room for error. Bump stop clearance is bump stop clearance, no matter the tyre size, width, rim, gaurd deform etc.

A new defender may be 100mm BS spacing in the showroom, but that seems a touch high in my mind....So unless you had 100mm stock, you now have more than +20mm.

Regardless of lift, each vehicle is subject to its own behaviour. You may or may not get prop shaft vibes/problems... If you have how ever improved your flex and not just raised it, you will want a propshaft with more working angle

[rick130]

Bottom line is you have a hell of a lift without any other corrections.
Usually 100-105mm between the bump stops is the limit before needing to really address other things.

I'll be really surprised if you don't have front prop issues even though the TDCi has a longer front prop shaft than earlier models.
Of course LR may have upped their game and fitted a better flange and uni's after so many problems too.

The lack of Castor will reduce straight line stability (the car will wander a bit) and you lose steering self centring.
You now only have 70mm or less of droop (and even less articulation with the front anti-roll bar fitted) so you will cock a front wheel far more easily now.
Probably not a huge issue with TC, but it'll make it and the brakes work harder.

[rick130]

[snip]

A new defender may be 100mm BS spacing in the showroom, but that seems a touch high in my mind....So unless you had 100mm stock, you now have more than +20mm.

[snip]


I've seen/measured and read anywhere from 55 to about 75mm BSS for a stockie 90/110/130.
Some TD5's were at the low end of that, mine was 65mm with bar and winch. (and OEM HD springs, 15/15.5" free length, 225lb/in)

Few are 125mm or above.
I think Pete/psimpson's 90 is around 125mm or so from what he's said in the past but he's done the swivels, etc, and I think Low Ranger/Waynes is about there too.
Both have longer dampers/shocks/brake lines, etc, so they have the whole package to work together.

[cal415]

Interesting to hear you have no noise at 125mm bump stop clearance, It really seems to be luck of the draw and to how bad your puma suffers - probably something to do with the mounting angle of the engine/gearbox/diffs as they wont all be identical down with land rover build tolerances. Anything over about 115mm mine got noise, i run full airbags with no coils on all 4 corners so i can adjust mine quite easily, with the standard shaft in i was getting very nasty binding and vibrations, i put a locally made custom DC shaft in and now can run up to 200+mm bump stop clearance with no issues at all. This shaft was made by Gibsons, same as what Chook73 and drover now have but i had a super heavy duty DC put in mine and have no problems recommending anyone to use them for a shaft.

I have since modified the original shaft to allow a wider angle uni at the TC end so i can use it as a spare, this was cheap enough to have done and i have been running it as a test this week, while it works fine up to about 130mm bump stop clearance it still gets some vibs over this but it is way better then the stock setup was with no binding. The noise is just a vibration type noise, not the clacking noise of the shaft binding i was getting before - this suits me as it will only be used as a spare in an emergency - Chook73 and Drovers experiences with failing shafts on big trips prompted me to do this.

As for the clearance issues with the front sway bar, i run a spacer to help this as well, but its not really an issue because of the DC joint, infact running the DC joint actually moves the pivot point of the upper joint forward creating slightly more clearance for the swaybar, but this is negated by the fact the shaft is most likely larger diameter tube. If you are running longer shocks you are going to run into this issue anyway, the puma is really not well setup for modifying the front suspension without addressing the sway bar and shaft issues.

Chook73 do you know how much mulgo spaced your sway bar, i currently have 20mm under mine but still not enough so i am looking at shifting the sway be back about 20mm which should give me ample clearance.

[Dockstrada]

It all seems weird doesn’t it?

Being the second owner and seeing that’s its obvious that it’s done lots of off road and there is lots of mud under the truck, I wounder if the previous owner has done anything to it that I can’t see.

Is there anyone in the Sydney area with a 110 near Matraville that as available so we can compare trucks?

[uninformed]

I've seen/measured and read anywhere from 55 to about 75mm BSS for a stockie 90/110/130.
Some TD5's were at the low end of that, mine was 65mm with bar and winch. (and OEM HD springs, 15/15.5" free length, 225lb/in)

Few are 125mm or above.
I think Pete/psimpson's 90 is around 125mm or so from what he's said in the past but he's done the swivels, etc, and I think Low Ranger/Waynes is about there too.
Both have longer dampers/shocks/brake lines, etc, so they have the whole package to work together.

I'm at 90mm BSS, but my BS are +25mm ;) . This with old custom 210lb king springs. Is like to go down to say 180lb even loose say 10mm and return the oem BS at front. Is have to space my koni 80 series +2 shocks though.


Does anyone sell slotted swivels?

[cal415]

Does anyone sell slotted swivels?
Castor correction (http://www.lrautomotive.com.au/contents/en-us/d658.html)

[isuzurover]

... Double Cardinal Shaft. ...

:eek: The mind boggles

I thought the catholic church was cracking down on that sort of thing... :wasntme:


Gerolomo Cardano [1501-1576] invented several mechanical devices including the combination lock, the gimbal consisting of three concentric rings allowing a supported compass or gyroscope to rotate freely, and the Cardan shaft with universal joints , which allows the transmission of rotary motion at various angles and is used in vehicles to this day.

[uninformed]

Castor correction (http://www.lrautomotive.com.au/contents/en-us/d658.html)

Thanks, I was pretty sure lra did ship and return, but not an option for me as its my DD and work vehicle. If I could get a pair I could rebuild the front end in a weekend I'm thinking....

[LowRanger]

I've seen/measured and read anywhere from 55 to about 75mm BSS for a stockie 90/110/130.
Some TD5's were at the low end of that, mine was 65mm with bar and winch. (and OEM HD springs, 15/15.5" free length, 225lb/in)

Few are 125mm or above.
I think Pete/psimpson's 90 is around 125mm or so from what he's said in the past but he's done the swivels, etc, and I think Low Ranger/Waynes is about there too.
Both have longer dampers/shocks/brake lines, etc, so they have the whole package to work together.

Yep,I have 125mm bumpstop clearance,but even bumpstop clearance measurements can be misleading,as bumpstops are not all the same size,as they do compress with use.Also it depends on where the measurements are taken,due to the fact that the diff rolls and the measurement taken at the back of the bumptop plate on the diff housing will vary considerably from a measurement taken at the front of the bumpstop plate.
All my measurements are taken from the middle of the bumpstop plate,to the middle of the bumpstop face.

[LowRanger]

I'm at 90mm BSS, but my BS are +25mm ;) . This with old custom 210lb king springs. Is like to go down to say 180lb even loose say 10mm and return the oem BS at front. Is have to space my koni 80 series +2 shocks though.


Does anyone sell slotted swivels?

You might try here Lucky8 Llc. - Take the road less traveled... (http://www.lucky8llc.com/Products.aspx?ProductID=2187)
or PM Justin,as he is a member here.
Possibly need to check the amount of bolt holes;)

[uninformed]

7 bolt metric double hex ;)

[LowRanger]

7 bolt metric double hex ;)

Well they look like 7 hole swivels on Justins site:D

[chook73]

Chook73 do you know how much mulgo spaced your sway bar, i currently have 20mm under mine but still not enough so i am looking at shifting the sway be back about 20mm which should give me ample clearance.

From memory we went down 2" and back 3/4" and I did this front and back as the backs inverted on me.

[chops110]

I've read lots about binding propshafts; I'm still not sure...

I've replaced the standard 235/8R16's by 265/75's (same roling diameter) and swapped out my standard 110 front springs for the LR heavy duty items (which are 130 front springs) to level up the saggy front end due to winch and barwork.

The vehicle sits level by eye. I wasn't intending to lift it at all. Mission accomplished? but then...

Very occasionally, at about 80km/h when going downhill, I do get a kind of a metallic vibration from the front. Can't feel it, just a noise, and it might happen once or twice every hour of highway driving. As others have noted, if I coast downhill and then let out the clutch I can make it happen sometimes, but it's very brief and only occasionally.

Is this the dreaded "binding" and what's it doing to my driveline? Is it worth the cost of the double cardan shaft when it's prtty minor? Or is it more serious than that??

[chook73]

The easiest way to tell is to drop out the front prop shaft and go for a drive, if all you have done is taken out the sag I doubt it would be but you never know with pumas.


My 2009 110 Puma thread http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members-rides/85537-chooks-defender-110-a.html

Sent from my iPad using fingers and thumbs

[Drover]

There is more to the PUMA front prop shaft issue than just binding.

You can check the "binding" by jacking up the vehicle from the chassis until both front wheels are off the ground, at full suspension drop.

Crawl under and turn front prop by hand, watch the joint at the transfer case and look and feel for a slight lock or when the uni journals touch.

Mine did not bind but the working angle was to much for the stock joint. It caused a vibration that only appeared at about 100k's, downhill, when using minimal throttle just to maintain speed.

I have a 50 mm lift.

[pannawonica]

I've read lots about binding propshafts; I'm still not sure...

I've replaced the standard 235/8R16's by 265/75's (same roling diameter) and swapped out my standard 110 front springs for the LR heavy duty items (which are 130 front springs) to level up the saggy front end due to winch and barwork.

The vehicle sits level by eye. I wasn't intending to lift it at all. Mission accomplished? but then...

Very occasionally, at about 80km/h when going downhill, I do get a kind of a metallic vibration from the front. Can't feel it, just a noise, and it might happen once or twice every hour of highway driving. As others have noted, if I coast downhill and then let out the clutch I can make it happen sometimes, but it's very brief and only occasionally.

Is this the dreaded "binding" and what's it doing to my driveline? Is it worth the cost of the double cardan shaft when it's prtty minor? Or is it more serious than that??
Mine does something similar under heavy throttle. Double cardon on front when out of warrenty me thiks.:D

[Iain_B]

I am thinking of replacing the front springs on my Puma before our big trip. I put in a set of new OEM springs when I put the Koni 90 series shocks on as mine had 80,000km on then, and also fitted a Runva winch up front. The front is a bit low for my liking. Bump stop measurement is around 50mm, and the centre of wheel to underside of the plastic brow is 460mm as it stands at the moment.

I have a set of King Spring KRRS-04 spare from my Discovery, and was wondering what the spring rate was for them, and how they compare to the OEM one. According to the research I've done, they are 15mm lower then the KRRS-02 used on the County and a progressive spring.

Is it worth fitting them just to see?

[Iain_B]

Wasted a couple of hour today fitting the KRRS-04 springs. Great if you want a 2" lift, the bump stop measurement was around 120mm, bottom of plastic flare to centre of wheel 540mm. Took it from a gentle drive around the block, and could feel a bit of vibration so straight back to the workshop and put the old OEM springs.

I phone LR Gold Coast to buy some HD 130 springs, and they would not sell them to me! Said I have to have a 130 before they would sell them.

I also took it to a weigh bridge, just to see how things measure up.

Front axle - 1.30tons, Rear 1.50tons. That's with driver, passenger, and a fair bit of gear on board but not fully loaded or completely full of fuel and water. It will be really hard to stay under the standard GVM so need to upgrade for more load capacity..

So time to find some heavy duty front springs. Got the car booked in for a check-up on Friday at MR Automotive, so going to see what they have. On the phone they were taking about some HD Raised King Springs. I want to keep the bump stop measurement to be around 75-90mm to keep from the dreaded Puma vibration.

[weeds]

Wasted a couple of hour today fitting the KRRS-04 springs. .

So time to find some heavy duty front springs. Got the car booked in for a check-up on Friday at MR Automotive, so going to see what they have. On the phone they were taking about some HD Raised King Springs. I want to keep the bump stop measurement to be around 75-90mm to keep from the dreaded Puma vibration.

I brought my springs from MR.......pretty sure mine are -03's and I reckon they are a little stiff and sit a little high....I have front bar, PTO winch and spare tyre on the bonnet

I will pop out and check the code......

[weeds]

I brought my springs from MR.......pretty sure mine are -03's and I reckon they are a little stiff and sit a little high....I have front bar, PTO winch and spare tyre on the bonnet

I will pop out and check the code......

On the front I have KRFR-03HD.....considering all the weight I have up front I would like to go a lighter spring

[Iain_B]

Thanks Kelvin, please can you measure the ride height - Bump stop or centre of wheel to edge of plastic flare. Just need to to figure out how much those spring lifted your car.

Thanks
Iain

[weeds]

Thanks Kelvin, please can you measure the ride height - Bump stop or centre of wheel to edge of plastic flare. Just need to to figure out how much those spring lifted your car.

Thanks
Iain

i am sure i measured before and after for the fronts.....maybe i didn't update this post....other have confirmed mine are a little stiff

[weeds]

front bump stop 120mm both side

centre of axle to bottom of flare 545-550mm

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/116373-new-springs-shocks-fitted.html

[Iain_B]

Thanks Kelvin, that's pretty close to what I got with the KRRS-04 springs, a bit too high for a Puma without a DC joint.. Looks like I will have to try the KRFR-03 standard duty ones, alternatively I'll contact Andrew at LR Automotive and see what they suggest.

I've had a look at my spring collection behind the shed (surprising how many different springs I've got :)) I have another set of Disco rears, with a Green/Brown stripe on them.

According to this chart, Spring Chart (http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/HTML/Spring_rates.html) they are rated at 207lb/in with a 754lb rating with a 15.2in free length.

A Defender 110 with the two yellow stripes is supposedly has 154lb/in rate and 171lb rating ( probably a typo 711lb?) with a 14.5" free length.

So it looks like I might have another pair to try :) - getting quite good at this spring swap business.

I also have a set of rear springs with a Red/Green strip - 330lb/in and 643lb rating but I'm happy with the OEM ones with air bags at the moment.

[Brid]

I've had 130 front springs on my 2007 Puma for 230,000kms now. About 120mm to the bump stops. Original front prop shaft and unis, and it's been very good, so perhaps mine, being an early model has some different parts to the later ones??

I had the standard rear springs with Poly Airs, but eventually changed to Standard Kings (25% stronger than Std LR), with the Poly Airs. Seem fine, but maybe a little stiffer than I'd like when empty. I was tossing up whether to try HD LR rear springs. Does anybody have comment about the HD LR rears?

[rick130]

I've had 130 front springs on my 2007 Puma for 230,000kms now. About 120mm to the bump stops.


:eek:

I have a 130 and only 65mm between the BS's ?

Have the same springs as Jason and it still only had 120mm when new a long time ago (admittedly a Tdi, not a TDci)

[newhue]

Brid I'm toying with getting my inner helper spring re done. My rear coils are also Les Richmond, red green I think. They are his heaviest coil for a defender which is still the standard rate. I had a set wound to 17" which is about 1.5 longer than standard. This allows the car to sit at standard height full of crap.
Now the truck handles itself well with its expedition load, but because I'm lazy and occasionally drive a bit fast it ocassipnally bottoms . No bigy but have toyed with getting some new inner springs wound 1.5" longer to match the outers. And maybe set at 150 or 160 lb/inch instead of the standard 140 lb.
Bit of a science experiment I admit. I'm also toying with a whole heap of engineering I know little about.
So feedback welcome.

It seems most go for bags, which is my other option. Just the simplicity of empty coils appeals to me.

[Iain_B]

Looks like I've found the "Goldilocks" springs for my car. The Bump Stop measurement is now 90mm. I put in the 10mm thick Discovery rubber pad on top of the spring the came with them, I might take out but I'll wait to see if they drop first. The edge of plastic flare to wheel hub centre is 505mm. I think when I'm finished loading the car, it will drop another 10-15mm or so and maybe they will settle a bit as well.

I'm not 100% sure where I got them, think they may have come with a spare axle I bought from a Hong Kong V8 import, if so, the wreckers will be full of them.

[Brid]

:eek:

I have a 130 and only 65mm between the BS's ?

Have the same springs as Jason and it still only had 120mm when new a long time ago (admittedly a Tdi, not a TDci)

I wondered if I made a mistake, so went out to check, as I was going from memory. That measurement would have been right, as I've put a winch on recently and it's 100mm now parked downhill, nose first.