Defender Pulling to the left

[Dockstrada]

Today I took the 110 in for a wheel alignment as it was pulling to the left .
Well after I got it back it still pulls to the left .

The Tec stated that it was only a fraction out and wouldn’t have been the problem , So I left him scratching his head as I did mine .
Does anyone have any ideas, it will pull across 1 lane in around 100mtrs , yet I cant feel much pull on the steering wheel its sort of weird .

[Marty110]

IMHO all defenders pull to the left slightly. My old 300Tdi pulled exactly the same to the left as my Puma. I am probably wrong but I reckon their chassis jigs are out a bit on the left side. I took my 300 to a chassis align place and they found that one side was marginally longer than the other and that was why they reckoned it pulled to the left, with little you could do about it. For the Puma I was told that the correction could only be made in the swivel hubs which would involve rebuilding brand new swivels - not an option I liked. So with both my defenders I fitted an RTC steering damper and loaded it up (just a little bit) to counter the left pull - takes a bit of trial and error and quite a few drives unless you are lucky enough to crack it first go! Got both my Deefers tracking spot on and with perfectly even tyre wear lucky enough!

[Dockstrada]

IMHO all defenders pull to the left slightly. My old 300Tdi pulled exactly the same to the left as my Puma. I am probably wrong but I reckon their chassis jigs are out a bit on the left side. I took my 300 to a chassis align place and they found that one side was marginally longer than the other and that was why they reckoned it pulled to the left, with little you could do about it. For the Puma I was told that the correction could only be made in the swivel hubs which would involve rebuilding brand new swivels - not an option I liked. So with both my defenders I fitted an RTC steering damper and loaded it up (just a little bit) to counter the left pull - takes a bit of trial and error and quite a few drives unless you are lucky enough to crack it first go! Got both my Deefers tracking spot on and with perfectly even tyre wear lucky enough!

Yeah my head was heading in that direction as I had the same problem with the f250, I also thought it might be a problem with warn bushes.

Sounds like a plan .

[isuzurover]

Sounds like you may have some rear steer in your suspension. Bent trailing arm? Worn bushes???

[Dockstrada]

Sounds like you may have some rear steer in your suspension. Bent trailing arm? Worn bushes???

The trailing arms are straight checked them with a straight edge, though I think the eye ball test would suffice in this case, may need to look at some new bushes.

[isuzurover]

The trailing arms are straight checked them with a straight edge, though I think the eye ball test would suffice in this case, may need to look at some new bushes.

Measure hub centre - hub centre distance on each side.

[rick130]

It all depends on road camber.

The more camber, the more they pull. A dead flat surface and they steer straight.

Easy fix is a slightly longer front trailing arm bush at the chassis end to extend the wheelbase slightly on the nearside.
Super-Pro make one just for this purpose.

The correct fix is slightly more castor on the LHS wheel, but you need to slot the swivels for that, and then it will pull to the right when the camber is the other way, eg. when overtaking.

[Jock The Rock]

Do you still have a standard steering damper?

What about tyre pressures?

[pushrod]

my 2011 Puma did that as well.. i tried the wheel alignment first too, with no change... booked it in with the dealer, they adjusted the steering box and with another wheel alignment after , the problem was gone .. much happier
25k now and pretty even tyre wear

[chook73]

As Rick said I find it's road camber with mine. If you are not sure try driving on the wrong side of the road (obviously somewhere safe) and see how it goes.


Sent from my iPhone using Thumbs

[Dockstrada]

Do you still have a standard steering damper?

What about tyre pressures?

Yeah still the standard damper .

Tyre pressure ? I dont know they were adjusted today by the mechanic :blush:.

[isuzurover]

Yeah still the standard damper .

Tyre pressure ? I dont know they were adjusted today by the mechanic :blush:.

Never assume the workshop has done things properly.

A colleague just had a wheel alignment done on his Pajero. I had a look at it a day or two later. Two of the adjuster nuts had note been retightened (potentially life threatening if left for long periods like that), and one of the TREs was worn but they either hadn't thought to mention it or hadn't noticed.

[Marty110]

It all depends on road camber.

The more camber, the more they pull. A dead flat surface and they steer straight.

Easy fix is a slightly longer front trailing arm bush at the chassis end to extend the wheelbase slightly on the nearside.
Super-Pro make one just for this purpose.

The correct fix is slightly more castor on the LHS wheel, but you need to slot the swivels for that, and then it will pull to the right when the camber is the other way, eg. when overtaking.

mine pulled regardless of camber, just less on a right camber, and thats BOTH defenders......

[goingbush]

Another vote for tyre pressure.

TOTAL Waste of money getting a wheel alignment done on a Defender.
All they can do is the Toe in ?out, and they NEVER do it properly.

I even told them last time I got tyres (got a free wheel alignment) that I need 1.5mm TOE OUT , and I knew it was wrong by driving, got home & checked it with my trusty piece of dowell & they gave it Toe IN,

In anycase incorrect toe in wont make it pull left or right !! So as I said - waste of money.

[Naks]

Mine did that since Day 1, straight off the showroom floor.

I fought with LR for two years and all they said was 'it's normal, they all do this'. They replaced the steering box, wheel alignment, etc, nothing helped.

Eventually I hired a lawyer and then they bent over backwards to help. Finally they replaced the entire front axle and the problem was cured.

[rick130]

[snip]
Finally they replaced the entire front axle and the problem was cured.

Would love to know what the problem was there.

Whoever did the wheel alignment would know and I would've loved to see the numbers.

[rick130]

All the suggestions above, eg Ben's check the wheelbase, possibly rear steer, etc are all where you go after discounting road camber.

Other things that can cause it are loose front panhard rod bushes or bolts,

TYRE PRESSURES (as has already been mentioned and I can't emphasise that enough. They should be checked weekly at a minimum. A decent tyre pressure gauge carried in any car is a must)

Type of tyre (some tramline more than others) mostly it's to do with case construction, but tread design can play a part.
Play in the steering box (and it doesn't take much play in a Defender to get the wanders) that obviously leads to play in the tie rod ends (TRE's) but that's highly unlikely in a new car.
Loose wheel bearings (an obvious sign of this is brake pad knockoff on rough roads when pressing on) or insufficient swivel pre-load (although usually some shimmy is indicative of this)

Hmm, I wonder if the steering box has been centred properly ?
On late model four bolt boxes there's a hole for a centring pin, then the steering arms are adjusted to get the wheels straight, otherwise the box will be off centre and power assistance may pull the steering (IIRC for the first x* or so from centre there's no assist. Can't recall the exact figure, 8* ??)

[Blknight.aus]

I check after a a quick drive on a reverse camber to ensure that its not the road

tyre pressure
tyre wear (if worn I rotate them left to right to see what happens)
visual on the radius arm bushes
Other suspension bushes
center to center
brake function
steering system play + freedom of movement.
swivel pin play
wheel bearings

[Naks]

Would love to know what the problem was there. Whoever did the wheel alignment would know and I would've loved to see the numbers.


Everything was measured by 3 different independent LR panelbeaters and nothing amiss was reported.

It could be that the original axle was bent or simply mounted funny?

[Dockstrada]

Today I fitted a returne to center steering damper , Only took no more than 15min , after a few runs up and down the Hwy I tweaked the spring tension and its tracking as straight as a die.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/6.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/7.jpg

[Naks]

Today I fitted a returne to center steering damper , Only took no more than 15min , after a few runs up and down the Hwy I tweaked the spring tension and its tracking as straight as a die.


I thought about doing this as well, but in my case, all it would be doing is mask the underlying problem.

This is why I persisted with LR, even going the legal route.

[carvs]

Mine does the same thing. its only done 30,000klm. Landrover found that the left hand side is lower than the other causing it to change the geometry of the front wheels. They blame the weight of the extras which is only a winch and a bullbar. Not sure what to do now. still has a years warrenty left but they reckon its case closed on this matter.:mad::mad:

[Naks]

Landrover found that the left hand side is lower than the other causing it to change the geometry of the front wheels. They blame the weight of the extras which is only a winch and a bullbar.



Wouldn't the extra weight of the bullbar + winch act on both wheels the same? Collapsed spring on the one side?


I'd kick up a fuss, escalate to head office?

[carvs]

yeah my thoughts exactly. The only extra weight to the left hand side is an extra battery under the passenger seat.

[Naks]

yeah my thoughts exactly. The only extra weight to the left hand side is an extra battery under the passenger seat.

Which is countered by the weight of the driver anyway.

Also, I just remembered - the springs on the left are shorter than on the right to compensate for the driver.

So a bog standard Defender is always slightly lower on the passenger side. When the driver gets in, it should be almost level

[carvs]

I think for now seems as its still under warrenty I will lodge a complaint with Landrover customer care and see if that gets me anywhere.

[dullbird]

Mine does the same thing. its only done 30,000klm. Landrover found that the left hand side is lower than the other causing it to change the geometry of the front wheels. They blame the weight of the extras which is only a winch and a bullbar. Not sure what to do now. still has a years warrenty left but they reckon its case closed on this matter.:mad::mad:

Why don't you just ask them what it is they do to their cars to fit LR factory winch and bulllbar? Which is an optional extra on the defender:)

[rick130]

[snip]

Landrover found that the left hand side is lower than the other causing it to change the geometry of the front wheels.

[snip]



BS.

The geometry can't change, it's a beam axle, toe is fixed and won't alter, camber is fixed regardless of ride height and the castor will change only marginally, and will actually increase ever so slightly on the near side which should help it steer straight but in actuality it'd be too small to make a difference. (assuming we are only talking 10-15mm or so drop in ride height)

They are feeding you a line.

[Nera Donna]

Mine started pulling Left just before the 10,000k service. Rotation, balance and wheel alignment sorted it. At just over 20,000ks on the clock now and it’s doing it again. I will repeat the process again at the next service. My guess would be the camber and caster are set too ‘neutral’ from factory due to the vehicle having a beam axle and being available in both Left and Right Hand drive. As mention earlier there is virtually no adjustment for the camber and caster so I don’t reckon there’s a ‘one fix fits all’ for this issue.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

Spacing the radius arm bushes will make a difference to the steering as it will lengthen or shorten the wheel base on that side.......

also.....raising or lowering the suspension one way or another WILL effect camber.......
the tyres could also develop a wear pattern in them from how they've been running which can cause them to pull to one side.......try swapping the two front tyres left to right and see if it makes a difference......

As for suspension height differences.......it will also affect steering geometry.....and the suspension is not designed for the extra weight of the bulbar and winch.......
the springs will also need to be upgraded to compensate for the extra weight......

the defenders are known to droop on their own without having to carry the extra weight......fitting a bar and winch will probably have dropped the front end down by about 20mm.......

[DEFENDERZOOK]

Ps......if the alignment is all correct......then it should pull slightly left but only due the camber of the road........
if you drive on the other side of the road.....then it should do the exact opposite.....
the greater the road camber......the more it should pull.......it should drive dead straight in the middle of the road or on a flat surface........

[rick130]

Ps......if the alignment is all correct......then it should pull slightly left but only due the camber of the road........
if you drive on the other side of the road.....then it should do the exact opposite.....
the greater the road camber......the more it should pull.......it should drive dead straight in the middle of the road or on a flat surface........

and there endeth the lesson.... :D

[rick130]

Spacing the radius arm bushes will make a difference to the steering as it will lengthen or shorten the wheel base on that side.......



Which is why Super Pro make radius arm bushes that space the LHS arm forward, lengthening the wheelbase and reducing the pull.


also.....raising or lowering the suspension one way or another WILL effect camber.......
Nope, no way, impossible, it can't. (is that definite enough ?)

Camber is fixed, there is no way on Gods brown earth changing the ride height will alter it. it's a beam axle so the camber is fixed by the KPI which is fixed in relationship to the axle tube which fixes both sides in relation to each other, independent of chassis.



the tyres could also develop a wear pattern in them from how they've been running which can cause them to pull to one side.......try swapping the two front tyres left to right and see if it makes a difference......
Entirely possible, particularly with muddies.


As for suspension height differences.......it will also affect steering geometry.....and the suspension is not designed for the extra weight of the bulbar and winch.......
the springs will also need to be upgraded to compensate for the extra weight......
[snip]Again, it can't, other than castor.

[dullbird]

perhaps he is thinking of castor not camber :p

[carvs]

Ive had my 130 back to LR a few times now trying to get them to sort it out. They had a chasis engineer look at it,
been on there new fangled aligninging machine numerous times,
Swapped wheels and tyes with a new defender.
But still if you let go of the steering at anything over 60 it will send you into the bush in a flash. Anyway i got the warrenty case reopened again from a lot of winging so will see what they come up with.

[ugu80]

Camber is fixed, there is no way on Gods brown earth changing the ride height will alter it. it's a beam axle so the camber is fixed by the KPI which is fixed in relationship to the axle tube which fixes both sides in relation to each other, independent of chassis.

Been off road. A good whack on the diff will give you positive camber by bending the axle.

[rick130]

Been off road. A good whack on the diff will give you positive camber by bending the axle.

Naa, never been off road in my life, but changing ride height won't alter camber on a beam axle.

No one said anything about a bent axle, and when they bend (the weight of an Isuzu is good for this) they'll end up with negative camber, not positive.

I have 1/2* of neggie on mine.

[ugu80]

Naa, never been off road in my life, but changing ride height won't alter camber on a beam axle.

No one said anything about a bent axle, and when they bend (the weight of an Isuzu is good for this) they'll end up with negative camber, not positive.

I have 1/2* of neggie on mine.
If you pulled down on the axle you would get negative camber, hitting something and pushing upward will give you positive camber, i.e. the top of the tyre being further outward than the bottom. Is 1/2 degree a Puma thing? I thought Defenders had 0 degree camber.

[rick130]

Most of them that I've seen bent end up that way from a little air and a landing and the legs end up splayed, and, AFAIK they should all be 0*. Mines a Tdi.

[ugu80]

Most of them that I've seen bent end up that way from a little air and a landing and the legs end up splayed

Thanks, I'll have to try that. Mines got 1* positive camber. It's either that or the traditional chain over the axle.

[rick130]

The chain over the axle might be a little more controlled, but far less exciting :D

[jboot51]

My 1995 defender 130 always pulled to the left. Had to drive with a little right hand down on the steering wheel. Didn't think much of it, figured it was the road camber.
Over the last few months I've rebushed everything with superpro and replace all the balljoints.
Took it down to pedders for a wheel alignment, attached are the results.
Drives perfect now, although a little hard to get used to not pulling right hand down on the steering wheel.

[rick130]

Factory toe setting should be 0 to -2mm ;) (toe out, not toe in)

You may get a little wander with road camber but generally the car will turn and point better into a corner.

Being a drive axle it will tend to 'pull' the front of the tyres towards each other anyway.

[Ancient Mariner]

Just your LR going down the drain go far enuff north will go the other way:D
a hemisphere thing:eek: Something more practical As a matter of course I always turned the stub axles 180 degrees if I had them off Many moons ago
you could also get a camber correction shim:cool:

AM

[Mr Rover]

Well I'm glad I'm not the only person experiencing this problem . . .

I was a bit concerned when I first drove my new 2012 90 with only 32km on the clock and it pulled left!

Looks like I'll have to talk to the dealer next year then.

[sashadidi]

maybe this thread might help?????
Defender2 - View topic - Brand new Puma drifting to the left (http://www.defender2.net/forum/post26997.html?highlight=pulling+left#26997)

[Naks]

maybe this thread might help?????
Defender2 - View topic - Brand new Puma drifting to the left (http://www.defender2.net/forum/post26997.html?highlight=pulling+left#26997)


That was mine.

Sounds like Carvs is experiencing the same issue: if you let go of the steering wheel at >60kmh, you end up in the scenery!

[Summiitt]

My single cab 2010 130 has pulled to the left since day one, I took it to a place that does all of my prime movers steering and suspension, they found the problem, came up with a cost and solution...land rover won't come to the party despite me bringing it up on every service in the last 3yrs.
The steering specialists said that the 4wd f250 fords had exactly the same issue and the fix was a common one, to remove the swivel housing, elongate or notch the 6 bolts holes that hold it to the axle housing, rotate the swivel as required and put everything back together with a securing weld. I will keep going higher up in land rover as the dealers arnt listening to the professionals in this area, despite anyone driving it agreeing that it does pull to the left.

[rick130]

My single cab 2010 130 has pulled to the left since day one, I took it to a place that does all of my prime movers steering and suspension, they found the problem, came up with a cost and solution...land rover won't come to the party despite me bringing it up on every service in the last 3yrs.
The steering specialists said that the 4wd f250 fords had exactly the same issue and the fix was a common one, to remove the swivel housing, elongate or notch the 6 bolts holes that hold it to the axle housing, rotate the swivel as required and put everything back together with a securing weld. I will keep going higher up in land rover as the dealers arnt listening to the professionals in this area, despite anyone driving it agreeing that it does pull to the left.


So it's a castor issue and they are increasing it, I'm guessing on the LHS only.
The same thing is done with Patrol's, only you use an eccentric bush in the swivel bearings.
Had this done quite a few years ago to our Patrol and it stopped the pull to the left.

That mod (sans the tack weld, if you really want to you can scotch key it instead) is what a lot of us do to reset the castor once we've lifted the front end.

A similar result can be achieved by using the extended radius arm bush that Super Pro make on the LHS arm as I mentioned in a post above.

[Summiitt]

I asked about different radius rod bushes but they said on a new vehicle they would rather retain the diff housing in the factory set position as at the time land rover looked like they would pay for repairs under warranty.. Thanks for the advise, I will keep pushing them.