L322 TORQUE CONVERTER

[jx2mad]

At what speed should the torque converter lock up?

[Laurie]

I'm not sure on what speed, but you can reset your gearbox ECU and most times people find it makes a good improvement.

Get in, and press the accelerator to the floor and keep it down
key in the ignition
turn the ignition to stage 2 ( all the dash lights up )
DONT START IT ... just leave it there whilst you have the pedal to the floor
wait a while ( 60 seconds )
ignition off
key out
pedal up.

come back to it in a few minutes and see if it drives better.l

Laurie

[catch-22]

Laurie,

where did you get this routine from? Never heard it before...

Cheers

[Laurie]

When I was researching info on the GM 5L40E gearbox and it's problems, I found references to it on Fullfatrr.com and RangeRovers.net. When I find tit-bits like that, I save them to a reference folder on my computer.


Laurie

[catch-22]

Ahh it's for the GM TD6 box. I have the ZF V8 box. Probably why I hadn't read it before....

[Laurie]

It should work for either the ZF or the GM box according to what I've read. RangeRovers.net has many references to it and they only have the V8 in the 02-06 Rangies in the USA.

Laurie

[jx2mad]

Thanks all. The trick about resetting gearbox computer seems to work ok on my TD6, but the original question still remains. At approx. what speed should the torque converter lock up and is this programable? Mine locks up at 80k/h but trying to drive at 60k/h is painful as the box constantly kicks back to 3rd and the engine revs unnecessarily. It wont pull in top under about 80k/h. Any thoughts? Jim

[Homestar]

That's about what mine does. If I'm driving it around town, I will generally put it in sports mode, as it seems to find a more appropriate gear like that.

[RangieBit]

As best I can determine the TC does lock up at about 60kmh with only a light load on the transmission. For example, heading along a straight, flat section of road.

We have a very steep hill close to home here and while the transmission will sit in third, TC unlocked, and reasonably high rpm (2500+) while climbing as soon as I level out it shifts up to fifth and locks up the TC. It's a 60kmh zone that drops fairly soon to a 40kmh school zone depending on time of day. Even in manual mode it doesn't seem to be coerced into behaving differently.

I find on the highway it locks the TC at around 80kmh (or perhaps a smidge over) and is reluctant to unlock unless provoked i.e. hard throttle press - kickdown scenario.

Between 60kmh and 80kmh seems to be a grey area. The TC can lock but may not depending on style/activity. Beyond 80kmh it definitely locks up. Below 60kmh it will not lock up.

I haven't found anything that suggests that this can be programmed differently. This, like lots of transmission stuff, is influenced by inputs from lots of other ECUs about the car so is setup that way to provide the most generic solution IMHO.

Hope that helps some Jim.

Cheers,
Iain

[Daniel]

The L322 transmission ECU has an adaptive memory function that remembers the driving style of the previous driving history and adapts to it.

She who must be obeyed is a lead foot and I always end up driving our td6 using manual gear selection because I can't get used to the adapted methods following her use of the truck.

I find that the td6 setup is really out of date now after I have driven our tdV8 L322 for 6k kms since we got it. Just came back from a 2 day 1800km trip to Brisbane - towed a 1 tonne trailer on the way back.
9.7 l/100km average trip speed 105 kph over 870 km with no trailer.
11.3l/100km average trip speed 107 kph over 880 km with trailer.

[donrover0]

Just bought a 2003 TD6 out of Melbourne. Higher mileage and suspect a lot of towing, OR lack of gearbox oil change? The TC in this has a lot of slippage, up to about 3100rpm; gearbox very lumpy changes; valve block worn?
It doesn't lock up till 95-100km so suspect time for change. I immediately changed oil and (partially blocked) filter, but no discernable difference.
As overseas now, haven't had a chance to try my Faultmate on it yet.
Presently importing a new 5L50E, ex Caddy, with TC, and plan to do a "swap" of TC--lower stall speed, if I can make fit, and complete gearbox, as appears they have the same valve block characteristics/plug, etc.
It looks as if one can change the output shaft from rear, unlike a ZF ( about a year ago, I fitted a Jaguar 4HP24 to my TD5- yep, full stripdown to change the output shaft! The Jaguar valve block/loom/plug straight to TD5 loom and works beautifully)!
The GM box is coming by sea, so will be an Xmas job.

[donrover0]

The L322 TD6? drove it out of the Melbourne dealer yard , a 100ks or so around town, then back to Toowoomba, via MR Automotive , Redcliffe for a checkup and recorded 9.5l/100km. All the way back on a permit/with no plates and only got pulled up in Brisbane!

[Laurie]

Don I and many others would like to see a 5L40E side by side with the 5L50E and see if the extension housing bolts fit etc, as this could be a long term solution for the Td6 if it will bolt up without too much trouble or cost.
The 5L50E option is hindered by the rear annulus gear being different (more teeth)and therefore the output shaft cannot be straight swapped. Could you get a custom output shaft ? COST !
Both boxes have a 27 spline input shaft so that looks ok, if it works, personally I would get a custom Heavy Duty T/C built/imported, the standard ones leave much to desired !
I will be watching this carefully, if you need any help just PM me.

Laurie

[donrover0]

Laurie,
Looking thru parts catalogue, admittedly USA, they list same part number for the complete final planetary set ( that the output shaft fits in/held with large circlip) for 5L40E and 5L50E, 1999 up.
But you never know what BMW/RR got up to when they ordered their gearboxes.
Wait and see?
Don

[harlie]

This will be interesting... Lots of Pics please

[Laurie]

Don if you go to the attached link and open the Domestic GM tab; pages 112 -117 show and identify the different part numbers for the comparison between the 5L40E & 5L50E.
I have also read the planetry gears in the 5L50E were hardened !!

Transtar Industries, Inc. - Transmission Parts - Catalogs (http://www.transtar1.com/catView.asp?ID=627)

Laurie

[donrover0]

Hi Laurie,
Thank you for this; much more comprehensive ( and yes, appears different ring gear/output shaft.
The gearbox I'm getting is one that bolts direct to diff and appears to have a short splined output shaft, a la RR; not like these as shown; wait and see.
otherwise, another stripdown and swap over complete final sun gears/ring/ shaft.
Don

[33chinacars]

This will be interesting... Lots of Pics please

Me Too

Gary

[jx2mad]

As a followup to my original thread, I have just done 2000km over the last 10 days. As stated before, between 60 and 80 k/h the autobox is all over the place as far as lockup is concerned. Hit 80 k/h and the box locks up so well it is almost impossible to get it to kick down. It does it automatically well but a manual kickdown is tough. You really have to shove the boot in. Suffice to say tht the problems I thought I had for the past 2 years appears to be normal for these vehicles. A big sigh of relief and I put my credit card away. These vehicles certainly have a good box for highway cruising. Over 80 and it locks up well and pulls up most hills without kicking back. Thanks to all who gave advice on my apparent problem. Jim

[donrover0]

Don't assume normal for these vehicles!

Although mine's high mileage and I think getting very "loose", it doesn't seem to have any kickdown delays, albeit bit "sudden". But has high TC lockup. alve block wear?The oil and filter that came out looked like previous owner(s) believed that sealed-for-life bull****, for it's 240, 000km

Should we say that not as good as a ZF?

In my Classic with TD5, I replaced the 4HP22 with an as-new 4HP24 from a Jag, complete with the Jag torque converter and valve block( yep, just "plug and play") and it is as smooth as the proverbial babys bum; changes readily up/down; almost undetectable, except when under a full throttle. The lesser stall speed also makes it accelerate faster as it's putting the better hitorque from the TD5 through, where it counts-- 2200-2500rpm.
Anyhow, my planned 5L50E replacement is finally being shipped from US ( very slowwww seller).
It comes with the Caddy petrol V8 torque converter ( considerably lower stall speed I believe and hopefully not too low for the TD6) and valveblock setup, so will be interesting to see how it changes? It is a new box. I'm hoping as good as a ZF but I doubt it somehow.

In another field, boatbuilding, I had a considerable experience with Twin Disc ( GM in there) and ZF marine transmissions. There was considerable differences there in operation! ZFs MUCH smoother, quieter, lighter

[Daniel]

................
Anyhow, my planned 5L50E replacement is finally being shipped from US ( very slowwww seller).
It comes with the Caddy petrol V8 torque converter ( considerably lower stall speed I believe and hopefully not too low for the TD6) and valveblock setup, so will be interesting to see how it changes? It is a new box.
........

Can you please provide some info in case I need to do this in the future -
seller arrangements/details & price?
shipping arrangements/details & price?

[donrover0]

Ebay purchase, so not regular supply I would think. Inland freight in USA will depend where next one comes from?To?
Shipping_ I am trying this USAtoAUS company who are on net; advertise a gearbox at $250 + duty + GST (and what else+++; have to wait and see.)

Once it's done- say, 3 months ( shipping is 1 1/2-2 months) all being equal, I will advise here if all works.

[Daniel]

Shipping_ I am trying this USAtoAUS company who are on net; advertise a gearbox at $250 + duty + GST (and what else+++; have to wait and see.)


"duty" - no such thing!

Since John Howard organised a FTA with USA there is no duty or restriction on the vast majority of imports/exports between USA and Aus!

Remember the bad old days when it was virtually impossible to import a car/truck from USA and the duty was about 150% - well following the FTA it is just a matter of getting it here and paying GST if it is over $1k in value.

[Homestar]

"duty" - no such thing!

Um - yes there is, and you do have to pay it under certain circumstances - whether or not Donrover0 has to pay it is another story. Customs duty is payable at 5% of the value of the goods if it is required to be paid.

See the FAQ - http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/files/importinggoodsbypostfaq.pdf - Feb 09 - but this is still their current FAQ on this subject. Well after little John had his dirty paws all over it...

Not the 150% it used to be, but duty certainly still exists...

[Daniel]

Um - yes there is, and you do have to pay it under certain circumstances - whether or not Donrover0 has to pay it is another story. Customs duty is payable at 5% of the value of the goods if it is required to be paid.

See the FAQ - http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/files/importinggoodsbypostfaq.pdf - Feb 09 - but this is still their current FAQ on this subject. Well after little John had his dirty paws all over it...

Not the 150% it used to be, but duty certainly still exists...

Looks like I'll have to spell it out for you
FTA = free trade agreement
free trade = no duty

[donrover0]

To he who knows all ( ?)

I have to pay 5% duty on this transmission (as well as GST) because the box was NOT made in USA.

All 5L50E's made in France.

You can learn something new every day?

I'm 60 in a few months and I am still learning, just easier to sort out the wheat from the chaff these days.

[Homestar]

Looks like I'll have to spell it out for you
FTA = free trade agreement
free trade = no duty

Looks like donrover0 spelt it out for you...;)

If you choose to think the customs web site is wrong, feel free to email them and let them know that you know more about customs law than they do...

[Daniel]

Looks like donrover0 spelt it out for you...;)

If you choose to think the customs web site is wrong, feel free to email them and let them know that you know more about customs law than they do...

Gav, is this another case of only one wire going to your brake pad wear sensor?

Maybe I have to spell it out to you?

A friend has just imported a brand new $75k truck from USA and paid 0% duty - FTA!

It is immaterial if the tranny was manufactured in EU or wherever. If the goods are being sold in USA and paid for in USA and then traded (sent) to Aus then 0 duty is payable!

Of course Juliar Gillard will be more than happy to accept your 5% duty as she needs all the help with (mis)managing the economy she can get.

[harlie]

As someone who has spend lots and lots of time researching the in and outs of importing a Yacht (300k+), I can confidently say that it does mater where it was built, I have enquired about buying from a US state and only vessels manufactured in the US are covered by the FTA. Buy a French, or Sth Afican built boat from the US dealer and duty is due. Buy a US built yacht from anywhere in the world and no duty is due. No difference if its new or used. Customs Broker agrees, when it arrives even if it is sailed in on its bum, customs won’t release the boat until these conditions (and many others) are met. Aus customs want a “Builders Certificate”.

I would think cars and major parts that are easy to trace a build country would be covered by the same rulings.

From what I understand the ruling goes on where the 'major' product was built - eg buy a boat that was built in the US and fitted with engines from EU and no duty is due because they only look at where the 'boat' was built.

[donrover0]

Correct Harlie,

If I'd bought the whole Caddy, with this gearbox in it, I'd pay no duty, however as it is a "stand alone" unit with "Made in France "stamped on the side, I HAVE to pay duty albeit only 5%.

Now getting back to "What speed should the TC lock up? "
Sounds like it varies from car to car, condition of tranny, etc. I doubt we'd see such variation if it was a ZF?

I never thought to look at possibility to fit one of those behind the TD6!

[Homestar]

Gav, is this another case of only one wire going to your brake pad wear sensor?

Maybe I have to spell it out to you?

A friend has just imported a brand new $75k truck from USA and paid 0% duty - FTA!

It is immaterial if the tranny was manufactured in EU or wherever. If the goods are being sold in USA and paid for in USA and then traded (sent) to Aus then 0 duty is payable!

Of course Juliar Gillard will be more than happy to accept your 5% duty as she needs all the help with (mis)managing the economy she can get.

Now you're just embarrassing yourself. I won't comment any more on this - you have been proved wrong. I don't expect an apology, but stop making a tool of yourself. Let's get back to what this thread is about.

Oh, and the soapbox is closed, so you better refrain from political opinion around here now...

[harlie]

......
I never thought to look at possibility to fit one of those behind the TD6!

There's been a couple of discussions on the uk sites about this, problems you will encounter with installing a 5 speed ZF is electronics, firstly there is no suitable shift mapping available (custom code required) for a diesel - the GM ecu won’t run the ZF. An interesting point that came up is in many peoples opinion the 5 speed ZF fitted to the early L322 (BMW) V8 is not as nice as a healthy GM box, and they are have their issues as well, just not as many.

Several of us here have been talking off line about the feasibility of sneaking the 6 speed ZF in, I can bore you with heaps of details but in short it’s not cost feasible, like the 5 speed it is possible but not feasible – and it all comes down to electronics.

So - no pressure Don, this is the first example I know of where someone has bitten the bullet and tried another solution besides the rebuild option mentioned in another thread (thanks Laurie/Gav). End of the day, this is what is needed, if your 5L50E will run off the existing ECU its game over. Shift point mapping can have mild tweaks for reasonable $, it gets expensive when you start from scratch.



.....
Now getting back to "What speed should the TC lock up? "
Sounds like it varies from car to car, condition of tranny, etc. I doubt we'd see such variation if it was a ZF?
....


Not sure I totally agree, I’m a big fan of ZF, but these anomalies are also a result of the software of the day - which the ZF shares the main functional logic. We are seeing a variety of problems from poor fluid / worn valves resulting in low pressure, worn / disintegrating clutch packs ect ect, and the software is trying to adapt to conditions that were never considered by the developers. These were the first truly adaptable shift map systems in a 4x4 and they are trying to adapt to situations that they shouldn’t be – the mechanical box failure is amplified by what the ECU is trying to do, and the software is the first of its type – far from perfect. It’s the Adaptive functionality that throws a lot of the variations; reset your adaptive values and your shift & lock-up points (behavior) change.

Disco2 ‘Adaptive’ or learning is limited to interactions with the engine ECU, the trans learns how to make the shift smoother through timing and variation of the Torque Reduction Request – that’s it - there's no change to shift or lock up points. Whole different ball game to what the early X5 was doing and unfortunately improvements to software have not been made available (X5 got them). But take a D3 for a drive; the software for the 6speed is a huge improvement.

[Tunny]

Hi all,

I will be keeping a keen eye on this post as I have been through 2 GM5L40E gearboxes on my 04 TD6 so am keen to know how it all goes.
Good luck.

Damien

[justinc]

There's been a couple of discussions on the uk sites about this, problems you will encounter with installing a 5 speed ZF is electronics, firstly there is no suitable shift mapping available (custom code required) for a diesel - the GM ecu won’t run the ZF. An interesting point that came up is in many peoples opinion the 5 speed ZF fitted to the early L322 (BMW) V8 is not as nice as a healthy GM box, and they are have their issues as well, just not as many.

Several of us here have been talking off line about the feasibility of sneaking the 6 speed ZF in, I can bore you with heaps of details but in short it’s not cost feasible, like the 5 speed it is possible but not feasible – and it all comes down to electronics.

So - no pressure Don, this is the first example I know of where someone has bitten the bullet and tried another solution besides the rebuild option mentioned in another thread (thanks Laurie/Gav). End of the day, this is what is needed, if your 5L50E will run off the existing ECU its game over. Shift point mapping can have mild tweaks for reasonable $, it gets expensive when you start from scratch.



Not sure I totally agree, I’m a big fan of ZF, but these anomalies are also a result of the software of the day - which the ZF shares the main functional logic. We are seeing a variety of problems from poor fluid / worn valves resulting in low pressure, worn / disintegrating clutch packs ect ect, and the software is trying to adapt to conditions that were never considered by the developers. These were the first truly adaptable shift map systems in a 4x4 and they are trying to adapt to situations that they shouldn’t be – the mechanical box failure is amplified by what the ECU is trying to do, and the software is the first of its type – far from perfect. It’s the Adaptive functionality that throws a lot of the variations; reset your adaptive values and your shift & lock-up points (behavior) change.

Disco2 ‘Adaptive’ or learning is limited to interactions with the engine ECU, the trans learns how to make the shift smoother through timing and variation of the Torque Reduction Request – that’s it - there's no change to shift or lock up points. Whole different ball game to what the early X5 was doing and unfortunately improvements to software have not been made available (X5 got them). But take a D3 for a drive; the software for the 6speed is a huge improvement.

my word it is!

jc

[donrover0]

Shipper tells me that the GM 5L50E will arrive Brisbane 6th January, so hopefully I will not be whisked off to work (overseas for another 3 months) in January!
If so it'll just have to wait.
Have a few other things to fix, in order to re-register this car, eg front tailshaft mod; few oil leaks, all brake discs/pads replacement.

[Maxintosh]

Hi Jimbo, I have read on previous posts or other forums that the TC locks up at 56 kmph. I can not exactly remember where the source was, but try searching for 56 kmph and l322 transmission.

I have had a similar issue with my L322, when most of my driving was through this range, it led to the transmission fluid burning, turned black, and mean a complete new transmission, then TC ,then oils cooler, and radiator before the issue disappeared. Still having the same slippage when driving in the hills or high country at slow speeds.

[jx2mad]

G'day all. As this is my post I will tell what happens to my TD6 now. As per some of my other posts in different threads I decided to blank my EGR valve. What a difference it made. Auto box will lock up around 55 kh and will hold with moderate acceleration from around 60kh. Now it drops back to 4th instead of throwing back to 3rd and revving. Maybe others should check this EGR valve as mine was totally gunked up and blanking it made the car drive like a new one. Jim :D:D:D:D