Shocks to suit Gen 3 bags

[Pete38]

Hi All. I happily made a purchase off Paul (Paul38A) of some arnott gen 3 bags. I like the ride and the fact they have the potential of more height and articulation.

But as the stock shocks are the limit now for downwards travel the EAS values can't be put up much without popping wheels off the ground. I'm at a height in High mode where I am happy and the sensors did not need to be extended surprisingly. But it does tend to lift wheels a little easier than I would have liked.

Now I know Hardrange sell a good kit that includes spacers, brake line extensions, spacers and shocks etc... But I was hoping to keep the highway and standard modes at normal heights (rather than all up 2 inches permanently) cause I wouldn't say I'm a devoted rock climber and spend most of the time on the tarmac but have put the P38 through its paces and got minor battle scars to prove :)

So what I am after is some shocks to complement the "Gen 3" 2-3 inch extra extension without the need of extended bump stops that reduce some articulation. A good look on the internet doesn't return much luck without going down the custom path as is shown here Custom Bilstein shocks for ARNOTT GEN III P38 (http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/7-range-rover-mark-ii-p38/24987-custom-bilstein-shocks-arnott-gen-iii-p38.html)

I had thought about putting front to back and adding an extra 1 inch on the bump stops to stop the shocks bottoming out on the rear. This would give an extra 79.5mm downwards travel (53mm times 1.5 due to geometry of rear axle) which is a touch under the 3.5 inches arnott claim. But the upwards travel would be 40mm less (27mm times 1.5) so the articulation would definitely be increased somewhat.

Not so sure what to put in the front????? Guess they could be 1 inch longer when closed as the rear already would have 1 inch more bump stops so all heights would already be up 1 inch anyway.

This approach would be good as I only have to buy 2 shocks seeing the front goes to the back.

But ideally I would prefer to put longer stroke shocks with the same closed length in front and back, with 30mm and 50mm extra in extension respectively.

Anyone gone down the path of longer stroke shocks for gen 3 bags with no extension of the bump stops and without using spacers? Guess not seeing there is not much to be found on the internet.

[Pete38]

Just throwing these out there, so still well and truly open for suggestions or comments.

Maybe these shown below? I guess the front extension is not multiplied by 1.5 as the shocks are vertical huh? So the 3.3" extension should be OK with the claimed 3.5" extra of gen 3 on the rear. But I would need to increase the bump stops by an inch on the front to stop the shock bottoming out.

The rear can have the bump stops extended by 1 inch and throw the front to the rear.

10" Reservoir Shock - Short Body (8 Inch) 150/50
Part #:
AK7110SB01
Shaft Diameter:
14mm
Extended Length:
24.29"
Collapsed Length:
14.06"

Edit: These would need the top mounts modified from the eye ring to fit the P38 style stud mount though. Not sure what that mount is called though.

[PaulP38a]

Convention for shock length measurement is from the centre of the eye at top to the collar of the pin at bottom.

Standard shocks are approx:
front - 534mm open, 337mm closed (21", 13.2")
rear - 475mm open, 311mm closed (18.7", 12.2")

I would be concerned that the shocks you mention may allow over-extension at the front, and doubt that Arnotts would cover that under warranty.

[Pete38]

Hi Paul. Oh yeh my mistake. Thanks for pointing that out.

For some reason I was thinking the front had 3.5 inch more travel but that's for the rears. So I guess i need the fronts to be extended length of 23" (2" extra on stock) or less huh? I'm assuming that with the shocks vertical in the front and them being further out from the diff the bags will extend a little less than 2" when the shocks is extended 2"???

The last thing I want is to over extend the bags. The warranty is one part, but I also don't want to risk having to change the bags often in the bush.

A good rule of thumb for the rear is a maximum of 1.5 times the travel at the bag compared to the shocks isn't it? This being due to the angle and geometry of the shock mounts on the rear? So the 2.3" extra travel in the rear shocks (using front shocks) will give less than 3.45 inches more extension of the bags in the rear?

[Pete38]

Just clarifying.

So maximum ideal lengths would be (obviously not going to get these exactly, but these are the limits);

Extended shocks are approx:
front - 584mm open, 337mm closed (23", 13.2")
rear - 534mm open, 311mm closed (21", 12.2")

And leave bump stops the same.

Likely need to modify the height sensors not to increase the ride height, but more so the sensors don't get over extended when a wheel comes off the ground???

[PaulP38a]

You are correct to try to keep the closed shock length the same as original. If you increase closed length you will need extended bumps and may actually lose articulation.

Front shocks are near enough to vertical so +50mm on the open length should work ok with Gen III's, but I would suggest a safety margin of 25mm to not max them out.

I think your comment about rear shocks and may be reversed... If we treat the shock as the hypotenuse of the triangle, the air spring as the adjacent and assume that 45deg is the nominal angle, then the open shock length can be about 1.4 times the extended length of the air spring. The calculation in your subsequent post look about right though.

Good luck finding such shocks. Be sure to share with us if you do.

[Keithy P38]

Paul, you sound very "fresh outta school"! What your real age haha!

[mtb_gary]

pbrown,

Ronron, a p38 lover from Sweden went through exactly what you are trying to achieve see link Range Rover P38 On-Off-road project (http://hem.bredband.net/ronronp38/) he finished up with Bilstein 7100 long travel. But watch out for your height sensors!

Gary

[Pete38]

You are correct to try to keep the closed shock length the same as original. If you increase closed length you will need extended bumps and may actually lose articulation.

Front shocks are near enough to vertical so +50mm on the open length should work ok with Gen III's, but I would suggest a safety margin of 25mm to not max them out.

I think your comment about rear shocks and may be reversed... If we treat the shock as the hypotenuse of the triangle, the air spring as the adjacent and assume that 45deg is the nominal angle, then the open shock length can be about 1.4 times the extended length of the air spring. The calculation in your subsequent post look about right though.

Good luck finding such shocks. Be sure to share with us if you do.

Hi Paul,

Thanks again for your informative post. I'll take a lot from that.

That was my initial thoughts with the shocks but it's about how much change there is not total length. And here's another school thing, I think it's related to the cos of the angle to the bag, so at 45 degrees is extending 0.7 times the bag ..

If the shock is almost sideways in mount then it would barely change as the bag went down, if the shock is vertical then it changes the same. I thought the same as you before so I could still be wrong :-)

Peter

[Pete38]

pbrown,

Ronron, a p38 lover from Sweden went through exactly what you are trying to achieve see link Range Rover P38 On-Off-road project (http://hem.bredband.net/ronronp38/) he finished up with Bilstein 7100 long travel. But watch out for your height sensors!

Gary

Thanks. Will look into it. I thought I looked at the 7100 series but couldn't find any with the standard closed length of less.... But will look at your link in hope ;-)

[Pete38]

If only it was easy to modify the shock mounts. Then I'd easily find 10 inch travel shocks for the front and 8 or 9 inch or even 10 if the mounts went high enough for the rear.

[PaulP38a]

I have thought that it would be great to modify the bottom shock mount to be an eye rather than pin, as this would effectively remove any stress on the pin and shaft as the diff rotates when raising and lowering.

[Pete38]

I have thought that it would be great to modify the bottom shock mount to be an eye rather than pin, as this would effectively remove any stress on the pin and shaft as the diff rotates when raising and lowering.

Good point. Have you had any shocks fail or wear with your extended wheel travel Paul? I guess the closed length would probably increase slightly would it with an eye at the end? Haven't looked as I am at work but might look into that myself. I'm thinking that might need to be inspected and have a certificate though.

[PaulP38a]

There was a problem with some of the early Offroad Boss shocks where the fittings unscrewed. In one case this caused a significant failure for a customer who had to make improvised repairs in the back of buggery.

Fix is/was to chemically weld the fittings on properly. Only ever had 3 or 4 customers return them to Offroad Boss for replacement

BTW: Offroad Boss apparently no longer supply the shocks I was recommending and I haven't found a replacement yet.

I've recently gone back to Bilsteins on mine to see if I still think they are too harsh... enjoying it so far, for the on-road handling.

While I still like the idea of converting the bottom shock mount to an eye, I am pretty sure that any redesign would require an engineers' certificate.

[mtb_gary]

pbrown
I was the one who Paul refers to had the improvised repairs some 2000+ k's from home. I actually lost the shaft somewhere in the corrugated red dust tracks around Karijini National park...it just fell out. Rather than have the body of the shock bouncing around near the brake lines etc i decided to remove it completely. With the remainder of the shock removed I was surprised at just how well the car handled even without the shock. I have since drilled the shafts and have split pins in them. No more loss of dampening. I trusted the split pin solution over the chemical weld (just my opinion). So aside from the one problem of unscrewing the shaft the adjustable shocks have performed beautifully both on and off road.
(I also have the 2" lift kit in addition to the gen 111's and love it :D)
Gary

[Pete38]

Right I have found these shocks thanks to a member on the P38 Facebook group. Link here - Doetsch DT3000 - 9000 Series Nitrogen Gas Shock (http://www.doetsch-shocks.com/2.asp)

Standard Bilsteins;

B46-2214 Front: 338mm(13.3”) – 535mm(21”)
B46-2215 Rear: 311mm(12.2”) – 482mm(18.7”)



DOETSCH 8XXX PRERUNNER SERIES SHOCKS;
(Built in bump stops so believe they can bottom out???)

8248 for front: 13.85" - 23" (9.15 stroke)
8180 for rear : 13.1" - 21.5" (8.4 stoke)



What do you guys think?

The front is borderline with 2" more stroke. Or do you think this will be risky for the gen 3's?? Arnott say 2" more on the front.

The slightly longer closed length shouldn't matter should it? I'm assuming the standard shocks have some conservative closed length so they never bottom out but as these have bump stops, offroad articulation won't cause dramas. Same goes for the rear.

The rear is over extended (2.8" extra at the shock -> 4.2" at the bag I think???) but I figured if I was making brackets for the rear to sit more flat on the axle then that 1" bracket would only cause 3.2" extra extension of the bag. Arnott say 3.5" for the rear.

Have I made a mistake or do you think I am cutting it too fine? Anyone used these guys shocks? the price seems good but postage needs to be added. Still quite a bit cheaper than the Bilsteins in the car though.

Peter.

[Keithy P38]

Had a look at Terrafirma lately? They do +2" shockers for P38's.

What I'd be doing is going through every popular make and model, and selecting one off the shelf that'll fit. Perhaps a GU patrol shock has what you need?

[Pete38]

Had a look at Terrafirma lately? They do +2" shockers for P38's.

What I'd be doing is going through every popular make and model, and selecting one off the shelf that'll fit. Perhaps a GU patrol shock has what you need?
The +2 Terrafirma do have +2 inches in extension but it is also almost 2 inches longer in compression so the bump stops would need to be increased and it would barely increase the articulation. This is from my understanding from when I made enquiries but happy for this information to be corrected.

[996TURBO]

The +2 Terrafirma do have +2 inches in extension but it is also almost 2 inches longer in compression so the bump stops would need to be increased and it would barely increase the articulation. This is from my understanding from when I made enquiries but happy for this information to be corrected.

You're right those are longer in compression but they are well in the limits.

I didn't change my bumpstops for longer but may do only for 1 inch in order not to rub when i got a EAS fault with 265/75 R16 tires.

Before going with +2 Terrafirma, i had front bilstein at the back and +2 inch bilstein for the front during years.

Front shocks are almost 2 inches longers.

[Keithy P38]

So you are saying standard bilstein front shocks in the rear and +2" bilstein front shocks in the front and standard bump stops?

With sway bar disconnects you would have had quite a lot of travel in the front! Did you have trouble with the rear bags over-extending? On standard shocks I find my rear bags come very close to the limit. I over-extended a rear right Gen III and popped the lower clamp on the bag with standard shocks, I'd be even more worried if I had longer shocks.

Thoughts anyone?

Cheers
Keithy

[Pete38]

Thanks for clarifying that. So you've got gen 3 and run +2 terrafirma front and back. I'm guessing you've put them through their paces and haven't found a broken shock off road. I was worried about them bottoming out but appears they don't.

Are they the TF144 and TF145?

Any idea what rough price you paid for them?

I also run 265/75/16 but carry packers for the bump stop plates for the emergency moment.

[Pete38]

So you are saying standard bilstein front shocks in the rear and +2" bilstein front shocks in the front and standard bump stops?

With sway bar disconnects you would have had quite a lot of travel in the front! Did you have trouble with the rear bags over-extending? On standard shocks I find my rear bags come very close to the limit. I over-extended a rear right Gen III and popped the lower clamp on the bag with standard shocks, I'd be even more worried if I had longer shocks.

Thoughts anyone?

Cheers
Keithy

That concerns me. Although Arnott say +2 for the front and +3.5 for the rear (just over 2 at the shock) so surprised to hear that.

[996TURBO]

So you are saying standard bilstein front shocks in the rear and +2" bilstein front shocks in the front and standard bump stops?

With sway bar disconnects you would have had quite a lot of travel in the front! Did you have trouble with the rear bags over-extending? On standard shocks I find my rear bags come very close to the limit. I over-extended a rear right Gen III and popped the lower clamp on the bag with standard shocks, I'd be even more worried if I had longer shocks.

Thoughts anyone?

Cheers
Keithy Yes i ran that bilstein combo for years but it was not correctly rated for the weight of the P38. That is what happens when you select a shock by extended and compressed length only. Back was firm and front was soft.

Much better now with Terrafirma +2 TF144 and TF145 that those guys offered me:D (i sell their stuff all day long)

Standard bumpstops with no trouble at all. I'm really happy with articulation and possibility to crawl into underground paris parking lots.

I have sway bar disconnects but don't use those a lot to be honest.

I never had any trouble with my Gen3 on my P38 but had many customers and friends who had problems with the upper crimp ring or the lower base destroyed. It's a matter of play in the axle and we made a angular spacer to solve this. Seems to work right now but they destroyed 3 right rear gen3...:mad:

Here's a photo of articulation with Bilstein (but Terrafirma are same length)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/80.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/81.jpg

[Keithy P38]

Is that bilstein with 265/75's or 285/75's?

Great articulation there! I haven't seen my front tyres tucked up that far into the guards. The rears will with no worries, but not the fronts!

Is yours lifted at all?

[996TURBO]

Is that bilstein with 265/75's or 285/75's?

Great articulation there! I haven't seen my front tyres tucked up that far into the guards. The rears will with no worries, but not the fronts!

Is yours lifted at all?
Bilstein with 265/75's

It is lifted a bit with longer rear sensors and eas recalibration

Here's a vid :

Range Rover P38 Offroading at Terrain du Favril 3 février 2013 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/vebXvxiZ-Vw)

Range Rover P38 4.6 HSE Offroad lifting front wheel by RR-EVOLUTION - YouTube (http://youtu.be/tDlBLj_mvMQ)



Those 2 vids were with +2 Terrafirma shocks fitted

My lady driving the beast :)

[Pete38]

Looks like you've restored my faith in using the terrafirma +2 now so thanks. Will make something to reduce the angle of the rear bags though as that concerns me even with the standard shocks. Guess there no way around the angle due to left up and right down but at least the angle due to the diff rotation will reduce I guess.

[Pete38]

Something just came to mind.

Well if I go down the path of longer shocks I might also need to think about not only carrying spare stock bags (I do that now), but also one front and back stock shocks. Otherwise I can't lift any wheels with the stock bag and the extended shock.

Maybe I just carry the stock rear as this can be used in the front with less articulation I guess can't it?

Not a huge problem but changing a bag and a shock in the bush will definitely put a small hold on a trip. On the road I wouldn't bother but don't expect to pop a bag on the flat.

[996TURBO]

I carry a rear gen3 and a front stock shock but think about carrying a stock rear airspring without the top and rear and front tops. That way i'll be able to carry less weight.

[Pete38]

I carry a rear gen3 and a front stock shock but think about carrying a stock rear airspring without the top and rear and front tops. That way i'll be able to carry less weight.

So you're saying carry one bladder with only the base (the rear stock) and carry both the front and rear top? But then carry the rear stock shock to not over extend the rear?

Don't you carry a spare front at the moment?

[996TURBO]

So you're saying carry one bladder with only the base (the rear stock) and carry both the front and rear top? But then carry the rear stock shock to not over extend the rear?

Don't you carry a spare front at the moment?
Yes for one bladder and a front stock shock (that can be used for front or rear with limited travel on front).

A front stock shock may pop a rear stock airpsring but stock airsprings have that great advantage that they can be repopped on the trail. You're not screwed like with Arnotts...:eek:

I always carry a rear gen3 but not always a front one (only for difficult events or travels)

[Hoges]

A small "issue" with ths arrangement is that you have different spring rates if you are pairing a Gen 3 with a standard OEM airbag on the same axle... still I suppose it's better than a wooden block!;)

[Keithy P38]

I did it for a month or so with no real noticeable ride issues. As you say - beats a wooden block!

[Pete38]

Hey 996TURBO. I'm guessing you carry one rear spare gen 3 at the moment because you had the rear right fail and you had to buy a pair from arnotts?

I've always wondered what will happen when the day comes and I need to buy a pair to fix just one bag. Was sorta hoping to buy one front and one rear but have a feeling I might have to buy all four unless I find someone who wants to go halves in a full set.

This is what I want which appears to be front to rear Bilstein and longer front Bilstein (equivalent to lengths of the Terrafirma +2 I've been told somewhere)....

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/554895_4490396658685_986610281_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/522034_4490408578983_651998255_n.jpg

[Keithy P38]

You can order the gen III's as a single unit. They replaced mine for nix but I did ask the question before they offered to fix the bill.

[Pete38]

Oh right. Their website says sold in pairs but I never asked them if they would ever sell in singles, just assumed they didn't. No idea if the postage makes it not so attractive.

I hope they warrant mine as well if I go the terrafirma +2's and make the rear angle brackets. Bought mine through Paul (paulP38A) so would likely get his valuable advice if or when it happens.

I'm heading to England end of June so was tempted to get a Ashcroft Locker while over there and also the Terrafirma shocks. Then come back with minimal cloth weight...

But the shocks would likely cause dramas on a passenger plane because of the compressed gas and not sure how much the locker weighs.... And then I guess I pay VAT even if I order and pay from here in Aus. But hopefully my enquiries come back with pleasant replies.

I wonder if i can fit the whole body armour like rock sliders, diff protectors, steering rod protectors etc in my checkin luggage ha ha.

[Keithy P38]

That's keen haha! The locker itself weighs about 15kg! You are better off getting it freighted over. Still works out pretty cheap!

Send Arnotts an email, I am certain they would help you out if you needed a single spring.

[Pete38]

Lucky I'm going in summer then huh? No way I could pack enough cold weather clothes with only 17kg of luggage weight left after the locker lol.

Yeh I'll likely get it shipped. I made an enquiry a few months back and think it was about 150 pounds to ship.

II will get my nanocom evolution screen fixed when I am over there though. Shut the glove box and it cracked the screen so the touch screen don't work. Ouch!

[Keithy P38]

Ouch yeah that would hurt! I've packed my faultmate in a well padded laptop bag for added protection.

[Hoges]

My experience of adjustable Koni heavy track gas shocks compared to good quality (non-gas) Boges is that the non-gas ones are a much better alternative and significantly smoother ride. Even if you are pounding over corrugations for hours on end, the Boges are very quick to recover.... and they are much cheaper. Don't have any exp. with Terra Firma, but none of these after market gas shocks have been developed to specifically address the unique attributes of the P38 air suspension... :angel::wasntme:

[Pete38]

So I'm most likely going down the path of the Terrafirma +2's. Chasing up prices from England as they are way cheaper over there although feel freight may bring the gap closer. Best I found here was $135 each, but from the UK they can be bought for like $50 (31 pounds) plus shipping which I will likely find out on Monday I'd say.

Then I have the task of making an angled spacer/bracket for the rear bags to allow more rotation of the axle. I'm thinking a wedge with 20mm gap on the high side and no gap on the other side so about 9.1 degrees.

Now I'm guessing I will need to adjust the brake line brackets to allow further drop or will I have to extend them?

Also what is the best or easiest way to check if I need to extend the height sensors? Monitor them with the nanocom to see what the maximum value is when the wheels are lifted or physically checking them? Is the max EAS value 255 and to not extend further than that?

[benji]

Yes, maximum bit value is 255.

I think others were not only having an out of range problem, but also physical damage to the rear sensors. Extending them by 20mm was one solution on one of the attatched links in this thread - which seems logical to me, as you're getting 20mm more travel.

I for one will be very intested to see how it all goes; as it's the exact setup I'd like too.

[Pete38]

I saw one of the RR-evolution cars put extensions on both the arms in each rear assembly. I guess that gives more total travel in the sensor, due to the upper arm being longer, as well as moving the extension limit down with the lower arm. Rather than just extending the lower arm which only moves both limits down so they might top out upwards. Yeh that's confusing I know but it was clear in my head :o

Anyone got any good links on how others extended the arms. Did they modify both arms or just the lower one?

Edit: Pic attached of the RR-Evolution height sensor mods

[PaulP38a]

Anyone got any good links on how others extended the arms. Did they modify both arms or just the lower one?


Make up your own similar to the attached drawing, works with a certain 2" lift that I am familiar with ;) Never saw a need to extend the upper arms.

Cut the bottom arms at the half-way mark, and insert the ends in to the voids in the extensions. Secure with glue and/or a couple of grub screws drilled in to the extensions.

[Pete38]

Thanks Paul. Do you know how close the sensors would be in topping out with standard bump stops and your extensions? If they risk topping out I might need minor mods in length to your drawings, if not then I might just do a direct copy.

[PaulP38a]

Don't know Peter, sorry. I never tried to install them on a P38 that did not have a lift kit already.
If you just want to stop your existing sensors from over extending when articulating, I was speaking with a very clever gent a few weeks ago who devised a springy hinge arrangement at the base of the bottom arm that allowed it to extend further when needed.
Have not seen any photos but it has me intrigued.

[Pete38]

Oh ok. I'll keep that in mind so thanks.

I'm also thinking about about making the extenders based on your design but half the solid length in the middle. Then put them on both arms so I'm safer on the compression side. My idea was the longer the arm on the top, will cause less rotation on the pot at the top compared to one longer bottom arm. And the two extenders will have similar vertical extension when the angle gets closer to being straight on the downwards travel.

I might even draw them today to see how much difference it makes.

I was also thinking about using two plates with a pin in the middle for the angle bracket at the base of the rear springs so it always stays perpendicular to the base of the rear bags. One idea was to have it able to lift (only up in a guide) in the case there is tension on the bag. The idea was to stop the bag over extending but when the wheel is on the ground there is always compression so it's all tight.

But I think I've decided it may just end up over complicating things to the degree I loose more reliability than gaining it.

[mtb_gary]

Peter

When I installed the HRA lift kit I did the modification to the upper arm as per Paul's diagram except that I used a length of straight plastic sprinkler pipe (6 mm from memory) as the spacer then a sleeve over the top made from a straight length of fuel hose. Stainless clamps to secure the hose to the arm. The reason behind doing this was to allow for some additional lateral movement in the height sensor linkage whilst maintaining a continuous length of the arm. Relatively cheap to manufacture and to date has served me well.

Gary

[Pete38]

Peter

When I installed the HRA lift kit I did the modification to the upper arm as per Paul's diagram except that I used a length of straight plastic sprinkler pipe (6 mm from memory) as the spacer then a sleeve over the top made from a straight length of fuel hose. Stainless clamps to secure the hose to the arm. The reason behind doing this was to allow for some additional lateral movement in the height sensor linkage whilst maintaining a continuous length of the arm. Relatively cheap to manufacture and to date has served me well.

Gary

I like this idea. Simple yet good for flex.

Out of curiosity what happens when the sensors max out? Do they go out of range and trigger a fault first, then hit an end stop where they either flex or bust the sensor/pot?

Just wondering if it would be possible to make something flexible enough so they kink at the extension if they top out, but don't flex under their self weight.

I'm assuming the sensors have minimal friction to turn like most potentiometers or are they quite stiff?

[Pete38]

I have attached a rough drawing of why I'm thinking of extending both arms. I understand in the 2 inch lift kit the compressed sensor value isn't as important because of the extended bump stops but I'm trying not to extend the bump stops and only increase articulation.

Even though the lengths are all very rough estimates, it gives a better view of why I hope to extend both arms for my application. Extending both arms a little brings close to the same sensor angle as extending only the bottom one twice as much when at full articulation. Extending both arms brings close to the same sensor angle as the stock length when pushed up to the bump stops.

[mtb_gary]

I like this idea. Simple yet good for flex.

Out of curiosity what happens when the sensors max out? Do they go out of range and trigger a fault first, then hit an end stop where they either flex or bust the sensor/pot?

Just wondering if it would be possible to make something flexible enough so they kink at the extension if they top out, but don't flex under their self weight.

I'm assuming the sensors have minimal friction to turn like most potentiometers or are they quite stiff?

Peter

To date I have not had the sensor max out so I can only presume that the extension is doing its stuff and working correctly. The area I have had it go out of range is at the opposite end if the car has been left unused for a few weeks and it is sitting on the bump stops. I need to raise the bump stop a bit further ;)

Gary

[Pete38]

Peter

To date I have not had the sensor max out so I can only presume that the extension is doing its stuff and working correctly. The area I have had it go out of range is at the opposite end if the car has been left unused for a few weeks and it is sitting on the bump stops. I need to raise the bump stop a bit further ;)

Gary

Oh good. I have found some flexible 6mm hose and some smaller but stiffer stuff to go inside to help resist flex a little and set the distance Cheers for the idea :-)

I have a feeling that extending both arms half as much (215mm extended arms), as though only doing the bottom (230mm extended and 200mm standard top), will help stop this out of range thing at the top. Well that was my thoughts on why to do both and the rough pic seems to show this. Not quite as good angle at the bottom to the single longer arm, but close, and almost as good as standard length at the top.

Keep in mind these actual numbers are pulled from my head while sitting in the office at work and only used to illustrate.

I'm really hoping to not extend my bump stops unless I really have to and rely on the rear 265/75/16 being the bump stops on extreme articulation off road (quite rare though) . Call me soft, but I like the lower highway height and can handle putting temporary packers to limp home in if I pop a bag or two.

[mtb_gary]

Peter, it will be interesting to see how your extensions perform off road.

Gary

[Pete38]

Offroad??? No way I'm going off the bitumen. Just wanna be able to go through car parks and the wheels to stay on the ground when I hit speed humps and ramps at 60km/h ha ha.

[mtb_gary]

Peter

I was driving along today (in the company car) and remembred that Ronny in Sweden has done the same modification as you are doing by modifying the heights. His P38 link is below

Range Rover P38 On-Off-road project (http://hem.bredband.net/ronronp38/)

In his journal Ronny makes mention of breaking 2 height sensors in the one day because of no sideways movement in the linkage. His modification was a bit more elaborate than the sprinkle tube and hose. He added anothe linkage to allow for sideways movement of the sensor.

Watch out for the speed humps in the underground car parks at 60K/hr, you may finish up with a convertible P38 :cool:

Gary

[benji]

It's not only speed bumps... the boffins who build the Bendigo underground carpark got the drainage wrong, it quickly fills up to hub height, and goes deeper than that sometimes. Not deep granted, but it is fun to watch those who shouldn't have a licence in the first place negotiate it

[996TURBO]

I do have longer rear sensors on mine, i broke 2 before doing the mod...You need to extend both arms to keep accurate datas at the ECU.

[Pete38]

Did you put flex in yours or have they held up without busting the sensors?

And you only did the rear?

Did you have to extend your brake lines and abs? Or just bend or move the bracket?

How thick are your angle brackets at the centre?

Sorry for all the questions. Just trying to remove the trial and error.

[996TURBO]

I tried the easy way of cutting and tubing for flex...with thick hose.

Doesn't work at all, too much flex and lack of accuracy at the height values.

I used the same kind of thing as Ronny to have some lateral flex.

We did only the rear as there's enough at the front even with sway bar disconnect.

We didn't extend anything yet and that seems to do the job but will only bend or move slightly the bracket.

Which angle brackets??

[Pete38]

Which angle brackets??

Cheers for that.

Yeh probably not so clear in my last message, The spacers /angles to correct for the angle of the rear bags at full articulation.

[Pete38]

And here is my findings so far attached as a pdf.

I know a lot of people have the Terrafirma but I'm also tempted with the Doetsch Prerunner 8000 shocks (model number 8247 and 8169).

Not a lot of reports but all of them seem quite good. The damping supposedly is good for the P38, well that's what one person said anyway with gen 3 bags. Most others are on springs but appear to be similar damping to OEM... hopefully. I read that someone (Paul I believe) said the Terrafirma are quite soft for on road and I was hoping for something in between soft and the Bilsteins I have at the moment.

They do have built in bump stops so bottoming out is less of a drama so definitely not extending the bump stops. But it appears the Terrafirma don't bottom out anyway and they have a longer compressed length. The front Doetsch are slightly shorter in extension which is good for peace of mind, but the rear are the same (which I sorta wished was half an inch shorter to minimise over extension). But I'll make the angle spacers for the rear anyway so that will help the bag a little in extension. But I plan on them only being an inch tall outside measurements in the middle.

Anyone got any opinions? Any problems you can envision. The Doetsch rep said that model was designed for the P38 with gen 3 bags.

Price are $US45.75 each plus postage of $US180 USPS Priority. So all up about $AUD350. The Terrafirma are more than that but price isn't really the big point of my decision here, its the damping really. I have yet to see a bad report on either brand of shock in terms of quality.

[Pete38]

I tried the easy way of cutting and tubing for flex...with thick hose.

Doesn't work at all, too much flex and lack of accuracy at the height values.

I used the same kind of thing as Ronny to have some lateral flex.


I since found some hardware that will allow the top arms to pivot laterally if needed but be suitably stiff in the other direction to not droop.

The only concern I have is these have grub screws designed to provide friction onto the shaft to hold them on. They seem like they will clamp plenty tight enough as there wouldn't be much axial tension on the arms would there? If they come off I might end up using epoxy to bond them onto the shaft but my gut feeling is that is unlikely. I may need to loctite the grub screw though.

[Keithy P38]

How much do we 'need' to extend the sensors by?

The shocks you speak of sound like an alright bit of kit! I like the idea of a slightly softer damper too.

[Pete38]

I'm guessing here but I do know Pauls Hardrange ones were 45mm longer on one arm only. Slightly different system though. Not sure what exact shocks they use on that lift kit. If they use the same Terrafirma 144 and 145 then I guess the extension should be the same.

I'm looking at 20-25mm on both the top and bottom arm which ends up being an extra maybe 35mm I guess vertically (haven't measured the angles the arms make at full articulation). Then as the sensors are attached 2/3 the way up the swing arm I guess that corresponds to about 50mm at the axle which I feel should be enough for the extra drop... maybe.

All guess work but two 25mm extensions just feels right.... Notice the amount I say "feel"

[Pete38]

The shocks you speak of sound like an alright bit of kit! I like the idea of a slightly softer damper too.

I like the Bilstein most of the time but sometimes they seem to damp too hard on some country roads. I did come from a modified 200sx so I must have softened these days complaining about too damped lol

[996TURBO]

I since found some hardware that will allow the top arms to pivot laterally if needed but be suitably stiff in the other direction to not droop.

The only concern I have is these have grub screws designed to provide friction onto the shaft to hold them on. They seem like they will clamp plenty tight enough as there wouldn't be much axial tension on the arms would there? If they come off I might end up using epoxy to bond them onto the shaft but my gut feeling is that is unlikely. I may need to loctite the grub screw though.

This is what use. It allows some lateral pivot movement and offer the possibility to adjuste height with micrometric precision.

I welded some of those but lost a height sensor because of heat...
http://nsa33.casimages.com/img/2013/04/19/130419015524338299.jpg (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=130419015524338299.jpg)

[996TURBO]

Cheers for that.

Yeh probably not so clear in my last message, The spacers /angles to correct for the angle of the rear bags at full articulation.
Can't go further on my recipe as i will sell those angular spacer for Gen3 airsprings...sorry

[Keithy P38]

Haha catch 22! I had a look on your website yesterday (thank god for google translate!!), just wondering if you had a kit already? Have seen pics of a dark blue P38 with your stickers up the side flexing on a rock quite nicely. It translated to something like "RR-evolution prototype" or something along those lines...

Twin 25mm feels alright hey ;-) I think it would be alright. That's one area I would like to play around.

I have LOTS of time now, ill get it sorted within the next 3 weeks and a set of brackets.

Cheers
Keithy

[Pete38]

Can't go further on my recipe as i will sell those angular spacer for Gen3 airsprings...sorry

I can understand why. Do you have them for sale yet? I had planned on building them myself but might still be tempted to buy off the shelf

[Pete38]

Twin 25mm feels alright hey ;-) I think it would be alright. That's one area I would like to play around.

I have LOTS of time now, ill get it sorted within the next 3 weeks and a set of brackets.

Cheers
Keithy

You'll beat me to it for sure. Although your progression might push me to do it sooner than thought.

[benji]

Id be interested in a set too.
Ive spoken to one of the guys at arnott about the angle of the diff with longer shocks, he said that they're not aware of any problems. But personally im not happy with it.

With mine im going to make a spring loaded joint that allows the senor to lift up of the radius arm the 20mm or so. The non-sensor end of the top arm bottoms out against a braket bolted to the chassis that stops it going below stock droop, and lits the bottom arm away from the radius arm. Simple simon for me.

[Keithy P38]

I have had an idea in regards to the sensor modification. In order for you to understand my idea I want you to think about the tailgate struts on our Rangie's! If you can picture the little ball that it clips onto, and the little socket that clips onto the ball - that's our way of joining the top arm to the bottom one. Can probably even use one of the centre console struts as an arm provided it was gasless (as mine is).

Major breakthrough here! *sipping my bourbon* We've just done it by crikey!

But seriously, a gasless strut would solve the problem of over extending the factory sensor arms!

Ill go and hide again now!

[benji]

On many gas struts the cup is simply screwed on; so you'd be able to thread one of the rods, wind the cup on; weld some flat onto the end of the other rod and bolt the ball on.

Bourbon has been the inscriptor of many great ideas (and many of my uni essays as well).

[Pete38]

Innovations here we come by the sound of it. Maybe some of these ideas might end up in the 2014 model :)

The ball and socket at the pivot point sounds good to me. I thought about cutting the top of the lower arm (the rubber eyelet) and threading one of the things in the attachment.

Both your ideas sound innovative so curious how they progress.

[Pete38]

Maybe these for the lower arms with the flared part of the tip on the upper arm, that goes through the existing rubber joint on the lower arm, would need to be cut off to slide the bush over and something made to stop the bush part coming off the rod top. Maybe even use a left hand threaded version so those extenders with left and right threads, like 996Turbo uses, can connect these to the lower arm and allow extension.

So these will need the tip cut off top rod where it goes through the rubber eyelet, the lower arm have the rubber eyelet cut off, the lower arm to be threaded as M6, attach the rod end rose joint using the threaded extenders, and somehow stop the rose joint slipping off the top rod.

M6 x1mm Male Rod End / Rose Joint Right Hand Thread 6mm BRONZE LINER (MMSAK6B) | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/M6-x1mm-Male-Rod-End-Rose-Joint-Right-Hand-Thread-6mm-BRONZE-LINER-MMSAK6B-/160884694588?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2575799e3c&_uhb=1#ht_1549wt_814)

[Pete38]

Double post

[Pete38]

Alrighty. Rambling on here. Here's my Plan

Order the above rod ends. Order these shown below purely for the female and mail adjuster. Order shocks. Build or buy angle spacers for the rear bags.

1 OF TURNBUCKLE WIRE STRAINER TENSIONER HOOK EYE M6 1/4" ZINC PLATED STEEL on eBay! (http://compare.ebay.com.au/like/130851205434?ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes#)

When everything arrives.

- Install shocks with standard height sensors so everything is normal.
- Install the angle spacers at the bottom of my bags (need to get or make these before all this)
- Drive out to my oldies where they have a good hill to lift wheel off the ground.
- Turn EAS off.
- Remove the height sensors on the rear
- Cut the flare part on the top rod.
- Drill and tap a M4 thread into the end of the rod where I cut the flared part off.
- Cut the rubber eyelet off the bottom arm and thread the bottom rod.
- Install the pot and top arm.
- Install the bottom arm but leave loose.
- Go and rive up the embankment so a rear wheel comes off the ground (hoping for no pop sound from the rear bags :confused: )
- Get under and measure how far the bottom arm is from the top arms pivot point when the sensor is just in range.
- Do the same for when the wheel is pushed right up and make sure that this is more than the gap when the wheel is off the ground.
- Then put the rod end and adjustment turn buckle (minus the hooks) onto the bottom rod and the tie rod end.
- Screw some M4 bolts with large washer into the top rods newly threaded holes to stop the bushes on the tie rod ends on the bottom rods coming off.
- Adjust so the gap is in between the fully extended and the fully compressed. If the two extremes don't work then extend the top arm so there is more range as per my previous drawings.

Well that's the initial plans anyway. Different than first thought, but I'm feeding off all your ideas :D

[Keithy P38]

Sounds like you've got it all nutted! Little mini turnbuckles are the bomb-digity, will suit out application quite well.

I was going to just use the high lift jack or a massive rock to get the wheel off the ground for measurement purposes.

[Keithy P38]

What if we were to move the factory height sensors further up the lower control arm and closer to the front of the chassis? Could have all the articulation we wanted then without the sensor snapping side effects... Plus it keeps everything factory (massive plus when it comes to getting parts).

[palacosfr]

Hi guys.

Im running the gen3 TF144 TF145 combo as well, partly decided that on this thread. Thanks!!

This is what I did to my sensors:

The EAS arms are 6,1mm diameter.
I got 4 female 6mm thread rods used on bike gear leavers, cut and threaded the arms and simply bolted them on.

The brake lines are a bit short, but have a an extra inch bwtween the bracket on the axle and the caliper, with a little oil and a gentle pull you can use that extra bit of line on the loose/flex part.
The ABS like is a bit short as well, I losened it from the axle bracket (it also has some spare inch between the bracket and caliper), and tied it down to the brake like. That is all that is needed, no need to change any of them.

EAS measures from the center of the wheel to bottom of the fender lip.


OEM:
Access 405mm.
Motorway 445mm.
Standard 470mm.
High 510mm.
Extra extended 540mm.


My extended measures (all four wheels have the same measures):
Access 405mm.
Motorway 445mm.
Standard 500mm.
High 540mm.
Extra extended 540mm.

The suspension bottoms out on the bump sotps, and not the shocks.
Front is all good with no mods.
Readouts on fully compressd and fully extended are within range, no EAS faults at the moment.

Here are some pics:

http://imageshack.us/a/img545/6073/5uq4.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/
http://imageshack.us/a/img844/9239/9h4x.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img17/1192/04mt.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img823/5665/x7o4.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img829/5778/1to4.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img208/1543/t0v9.jpg


Regards
Francisco

[Keithy P38]

Excellent work mate! Looks like a great way of doing it.

Have you got nuts on the ends of the rods (where the sensor arms join) to prevent them coming apart?

Cheers
Keithy

EDIT: just zoomed in and it appears you do! Great stuff!

[palacosfr]

No I dont, I threaded them, just long enough (10mm), to tighten it down on the end of the thread, and aplied loctite on the thread.
I figued out that if it does undo a bit it wont come off, because it wont be able to do a complete turn due to it being attatched at both ends.
I will be checking if it gets loose or not.
Doing a longer thread and puting a nut on it is a good idea though, if it does losen up I might do that.

This is the rod I used (measures are in mm):
http://imageshack.us/a/img27/3107/klgw.jpg

[palacosfr]

I have had an idea in regards to the sensor modification. In order for you to understand my idea I want you to think about the tailgate struts on our Rangie's! If you can picture the little ball that it clips onto, and the little socket that clips onto the ball - that's our way of joining the top arm to the bottom one. Can probably even use one of the centre console struts as an arm provided it was gasless (as mine is).

Major breakthrough here! *sipping my bourbon* We've just done it by crikey!

But seriously, a gasless strut would solve the problem of over extending the factory sensor arms!

Ill go and hide again now!

This sounds and is a crazy idea, but its done already.
Check this out: Flexible travel height sensor for Range Rover P38. - YouTube

Too complex though, too many things to go wrong in my opinion. I wouldnt rely on that solution.

[Keithy P38]

No I dont, I threaded them, just long enough (10mm), to tighten it down on the end of the thread, and aplied loctite on the thread.
I figued out that if it does undo a bit it wont come off, because it wont be able to do a complete turn due to it being attatched at both ends.
I will be checking if it gets loose or not.
Doing a longer thread and puting a nut on it is a good idea though, if it does losen up I might do that.

This is the rod I used (measures are in mm):


May have misunderstood what I meant (I have a hard time saying things sometimes :-) )

I was talking about where the two arms join, not the end of each rod itself, but the physical joining of the two (a nut to secure the two together and prevent them separating).

While I've got you here, are the arms the "original" sensor arms or have you used a 6mm steel rod and adapted it to suit?

Cheers
Keithy

[palacosfr]

May have misunderstood what I meant (I have a hard time saying things sometimes :-) )

I was talking about where the two arms join, not the end of each rod itself, but the physical joining of the two (a nut to secure the two together and prevent them separating).

While I've got you here, are the arms the "original" sensor arms or have you used a 6mm steel rod and adapted it to suit?

Cheers
Keithy

They are the original arms.
I just cut off the metal part that bends has something similar to a washer and an nipple (built in) that is meant to plugg in the bubber ends.

This is what I cut off (four of these, one on each arm, two per sensor):
http://imageshack.us/a/img856/3972/w424.jpg

Then threaded the cut end and scrued the rod on, geting this result (oem and modified on the same picture):
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

I bought two used sensors to do all that, and kept my original sensors OEM. Just in case somethings go wrong.

[RR P38]

There was a problem with some of the early Offroad Boss shocks where the fittings unscrewed. In one case this caused a significant failure for a customer who had to make improvised repairs in the back of buggery.

Fix is/was to chemically weld the fittings on properly. Only ever had 3 or 4 customers return them to Offroad Boss for replacement

BTW: Offroad Boss apparently no longer supply the shocks I was recommending and I haven't found a replacement yet.

I've recently gone back to Bilsteins on mine to see if I still think they are too harsh... enjoying it so far, for the on-road handling.

While I still like the idea of converting the bottom shock mount to an eye, I am pretty sure that any redesign would require an engineers' certificate.

Hi there guys.
I like the look of some of these mods under development.....good thoughts and work.

Bilsteins.......Mmm, cant say Im impressed with the gas ones.
I have had one snap at the shock mount to chassis on the bottom (front) This would appeared to have happened while I was away and the Mrs was driving (she doesnt do off road) I tried the "life time warranty" approach. Have you been off road? ERM YES its a Range Rover, Ooh no warranty.
I bought another to replace that one.
Since then I have had a top bush mount on the shock fail and the mount its self has elongated considerably.
I have since removed the Billys from the front and gone back to OEMs.
The Billys are just to stiff, I think.
They are fine on road, do they make that much difference over OEMs?
I wouldnt call my self a rough driver......at times off road but generally I try and preserve things.
While I was fiddling about on the front end I came to the conclusion that the Billys and the OEMs could allow a little more wheel drop probably at least 25mm without damage to the air spring, I guess there is a safety factor built in here, one could pack the bottom mount of the shock to pick up this extra, probs not worth it but it seems to be there.

[Dougal]

Why not relocate the sensors closer to the chassis mount?

Viola, less range needed.:angel:

[Keithy P38]

Does anyone know how difficult it is to remove and replace the ends of an OEM height sensor? The rubbery looking things on the rhs of the sensor arm in the below pic?

http://imageshack.us/a/img33/4387/tufs.jpg

Cheers
Keithy

[palacosfr]

Why not relocate the sensors closer to the chassis mount?

Viola, less range needed.:angel:

That looks like a good idea, I though of it briefly.
Moving the chassis mount forward doesnt look easy, and the radius arm is made of some sort of reinforced fiber, so I wouldnt dear to drill another hole to attach the ruber eye further front.
I thought of moving just the ruber eye and tighten it down with a hose clamp or something, but it might move if you scrape the arm on rock/sand/dirt.

On the other hand I dont think you can get good readings if you just moved one of them.
Moving the buber bit further front on the radius arm, wouldnt give you out of range measures when the suspension bottoms out?

Just brain storming here.

There is probably an easy way to do it that I didnt see. If its possible to move the mountings keeping the eas seansors OEM that would be the best thing to do.

[palacosfr]

The sensor mod is still working great.
Some pics with the tf144 tf145 Arnott III, bumper trim and new tires (265/75/16 km2).

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/[IMG]http://imageshack.us/a/img593/9304/s8n2.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img593/9304/s8n2.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img689/8849/2gne.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img30/9205/ur3v.JPG

:cool:

[TheTree]

Well my BritPart Foamcells have lasted less than a year and under 10,000KM before the top bushes failed and the bottom ones have begun to split (see pics)

So now I am wondering about TerraFirma, TerraFirma +2 or Boss Adjustable shocks. I have GEN III knockoff bags all round.

Suggestions?

Steve

[benji]

I've been disappointed with the valving of the terrafirma +2". They seem to be harsh over low speed movements, but they do soften up if you work them hard. ... though they'd still don't let the car float (even with my bar work). This doesn't actually translate into better handling either.

Driving back from Wagga I had a play with the adjustable settings on the boss shocks Paul used on the Hard Range kit. They are just goergous, it's like a fat lady waltzing gracefully.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[davidsonsm]

I've tried bilsteins, konas and terrafirmas on my P38s. Pick of the bunch the konas.

[TheTree]

I've been disappointed with the valving of the terrafirma +2". They seem to be harsh over low speed movements, but they do soften up if you work them hard. ... though they'd still don't let the car float (even with my bar work). This doesn't actually translate into better handling either.

Driving back from Wagga I had a play with the adjustable settings on the boss shocks Paul used on the Hard Range kit. They are just goergous, it's like a fat lady waltzing gracefully.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

Mate I must admit they appeal to the engineer in me .... another dial to twiddle :p

Do you know which boss shocks they are ?

[Keithy P38]

I'm all for the boss shocks too. Terrafirmas were too harsh for my liking. Off road they are great, on road they suck.

Standard boges are perfect if you're not lifted in my opinion. I have bilsteins on my non lifted one currently and they are too soft.

Cheers
Keithy

[TheTree]

Hi

I am trying to work out which BOSS shocks to get for my GEN III bags.

Based on a shock length PDF I found in this thread (thanks PeterH) and converting it to mm I came with the following lengths using the BOSS mm units;

STD = 533-337
Doestch 8247 = 570-342
TerraF TF144 = 584-359

Based on those lengths it looks as if the BOSS 570-344 should be OK if the Doestch guys were correct in recommending that size for GEN III bags although the TF144 are supposed to be OK without a lift as well and they are a fair bit longer.

However I notice that these BOSS 570-344 are what people are using with lift kits! Another option would be the BOSS 555-336 which may be a little more safe

I was also wondering if people got the big loop or small loop on the top? And do they come with bushes?

Opinions please :p

Steve