Rebuild 200Tdi Defender or go for a Puma?

[samuelclarke]

Rebuild our 200Tdi 110 Defender or go for a newer 110 Puma?

This is the question I've been debating back and forward for the last few months. My wife's given her input as have friends, so I thought I'd ask AULRO too! :D We've just got a diesel Hyundai i30 as our daily driver (great car btw - 5l/100km :D) so it's finally possible to take the Defender off the road and rebuild if we choose to go that way.

Defender is a 1992 build with 430,000km in the clock. I've replaced the gearbox (plus new clutch) and transfer case, upgraded to disc brakes on the back, stainless steel exhaust, winch bar and rock sliders, NAS lights, wiring upgrade and new TerraFirma +2in suspension upgrade with shocks, springs and hardware. Engine is going great, but needs a couple of $1k's spent on scheduled maintenance - radiator, head gasket. Doors need replacing (except for rear door - it's new) as does firewall and the chassis has a couple of rust spots.

Plans for a rebuild would include new galvanised chassis, firewall and doors, with a respray and upgraded interior including new seats and soundproofing, and a roll cage if funds will stretch. Basically it would be my dream expedition vehicle.

I'm leaning towards a rebuild over new as I love our current Defender and we have plans within the next 10 years to do a lap of Australia and then ship it overseas - America, Europe and Africa.

However, leaving feelings aside and making a decision based on what's the best option is hard. Should I spend $15,000 to $20,000 (my initial costings come to around this amount) rebuilding the 200tdi or sell the old girl, save up and buy a used/new Puma for $40,000 to $50,000? What are your thoughts fellow Defender owners?

[tonic]

As I am doing the rebuild of a 300tdi 110 to do long term planned trips, I would go rebuild.

You know what you have and what it will do, it would be better than original from your plans plus what you have already done, I think.

If you go Puma, which I would not be against, you would then want to do upgrades etc. Your costing only allowed for the purchase, what else would you then spend?

The only thing I would consider in the rebuild is going 300tdi. There seem to be more parts available, or at least a fair bit less expensive than 200tdi parts, from what I have seen.

[LowRanger]

As the owner of 2 200Tdi's,I will make a totally unbias decision,and say,do the old girl up.You have already invested in doing the gearbox and clutch,and a disc brake conversion.You can then do the types of mods that suit what you want and not necessarily have to put up with something that the manufacturer wants you to have in a new vehicle.New doors etc. are available ex U.K.and I know a lot of the new Ford powered Defenders will let you know how great and reliable they are,there is always an underlying doubt,in my mind for an expedition vehicle regarding all the electronics.Something you don't have to worry about with the old Tdi.

[Johnno1969]

I'll give you an entirely biased reply, for what it's worth. I love 200Tdi Defenders and am very attached to my own one. If you don't mind spending a bit of time and money to overhaul your 200, go for it - and if you're going to be driving the vehicle around Africa, definitely go for the earlier vehicle.

Then again, I once drove a friend's Puma and was pretty impressed.....

But still keep the 200........

[slug_burner]

Having a 300Tdi Deefer and a Td5 Disco I can say that there are benefits in the newer engine. With the good stuff comes complexity, the Td5 has had the fuel cooler and a leak from one of the fuel hoses that rubbed through back at the tank. The Tdi has had the timing case and gears etc a kit put through it to overcome the chewed timing belt. Overall the simpler motor would be my choice for remote travel.

You haven't told us what your wife and her friends say! You know that a happy wife = happy life. I doubt that you would miss the 200 Tdi over the Puma for noise, performance and aircon, however if the performance is not an issue then the noise you will address via your rebuild and you could address the aircon while your at it.

It sounds pretty drastic to have to replace the chassis and firewall, things must be crook or you really just want to do it to build a vehicle that will outlast you.

I have a sound deadening kit to put in the deefer but if it came to chassis and fire wall I think I would just cut out the cancer and weld in some sound metal.

Plenty of people are out there now using their Puma to do the sort of travel you are planning, you will not be the first if you decide to go down that path. A breakdown could be challenging but will be just part of the memories of how you had to get towed by a donkey to get the Puma repaired or had to fly parts in etc. In the mean time you would be getting the benefits a performance and fuel economy. Not that the 200Tdi would be too shabby on the fuel economy stakes.

Either path will see you a happy man for different reasons.

[manic]

At 430k and with worldwide expeditions in mind I would factor in the cost of an engine rebuild.

I have a 200tdi rebuilt on galv chassis and bulkhead, new doors, recon gbox and tcase etc etc. Spent about $20,000 and shipped it from UK to Auz. The only regret I have is not spending any money/time on the 200tdi.

Shortly after arrival it popped a headgasket and cracked the head. I blame taller gear ratios, fuel pump and intercooler set up. You can crack the head without even seeing the temp needle go into the red! So EGT guage, engine saver, good temp gauge etc should all be fitted now.

If you are going to actually make it do long hard distances around the globe - have the engine properly rebuilt!

If you spend as much as a new puma rebuilding your old defer you would have a MUCH better 4x4 expedition vehicle.

[steane]

I'm getting close to finishing off the rebuild of my 300TDi. Paint and panel work is all that's left really. It's very easy to burn through the dollars, $15-20k will go in the blink of an eye, especially if you are fixing years of neglect, but you do end up with a prime example of the breed and one you know you can rely on and fix yourself if ever needed. The rebuild process teaches you a lot:)

I could have bought a Puma but I didn't want the new car 'plastic' experience because I've had that with every other car I've owned (still be quite happy to have a Puma though). The older Defenders are a blast to drive when they are fully sorted IMO, but you do trade the modern conveniences for 'the experience' ie air con that works.

Doing the 200TDi up is the way to go. Besides, we have a duty of care to keep these old girls on the road and selling her on may find her in a less than desirable home down the track... How would you live with that! :twisted:

Keep it!

[manic]

The rebuild process teaches you a lot:)

...

Keep it!


Yes! That is the greatest value, you get to know the workings of your car inside and out so that when things get tricky you know exactly how to deal with it.

You may not get to pull a new puma apart until you break down in the depths of Africa with no clue other than a dash bulb blinking and some beeps.

[TimNZ]

If you are planning overseas trips it is worth thinking about things like Carnet de Passage costs, in some countries this is many times the value of the vehicle, in this case the 200TDi rebuild would be a better option.

Cheers,

Tim

[samuelclarke]

Thanks for all the replies guys! :)

My wife doesn't mind the 200Tdi, but at the same time really likes the Pumas (as do I). With our friends, it's a split - the guys are for rebuilding the 200Tdi as they like it, and the girls are mostly for a new one.

The biggest thing I love with the 200Tdi is that I know it well having spent 5 years working on it already - I know most of it's quirks and mannerisms! I've done 130,000kms since I bought Safara and she's never let us down on a trip - maybe the odd small thing, but never something I couldn't fix.

An engine rebuild or swap is something I've also got to factor in, however I'm not too worried about it in the short term as there's a couple of 200Tdi's I know kicking around near the 1 million km mark. :cool: However, we'd look at it seriously before shipping the Defender overseas.

We live near Noosa, and are often over on Teewah Beach or Fraser - and while I'm crazy with lanolin and regular rust proofing, the salt does take its toll. The small areas of rust in the chassis are fixable, but I figure a galvanised one with rust proofing is going to be the ultimate.

A very interesting point on the Carnet de Passage - also it's easier bringing in a 25 years or older Defender to the USA.

[justinc]

you will be very sad to change that 110 out for a new one:(.
you have put lot of heart into it.
rebuild and keep forever i say!
jc

[Blknight.aus]

rebuild the old one...

thats what they were designed for anyway.

[flagg]

I've been doing this with my 110. Had the same question- rebuild or puma. 12 months and many $$$ in I still ask myself, but I glad i did the rebuild. I also did the firewall swap and a new loom, scheelmann seats etc.

Well worth it. The best part is now i know it better 'under the hood' if something happens when I'm out and about it usually doesn't take me long to fix it.

I've been doing my rebuild in 3 stages. Things that had to be done, things that I'd like to be done, and then things to make it more comfortable.

I'm about 70% through now. The best part is that at the start I really didn't know one end of a spanner from the other... and now i know just enough to get me into trouble :D

[rainman]

Yes - another vote for the rebuild.

I've just restored a 300Tdi 130 dual cab. Really, Defenders are such that you can make an older model as good or better than a newer model without too much hassle. I've upgraded the air conditioning, fitted a VNT, lots of sound and heat insulation, done lots of wiring upgrades, etc, etc. Apart from the lack of a sixth gear, there's not a whole lot the Puma does that mine doesn't, and it's easy as pie to fix when something goes wrong.

.... and, my main justification was that I could have bought a Puma, and it would have depreciated to half it's value in five years. I still haven't spent that much money.

James.

[Flatty]

Having a 300tdi and a Puma I can offer my opinion for what’s it is worth.The 300tdi I am currently rebuilding for future trips is taking longer and costing more than expected, however I did hit a cow and roll it! The Puma is quieter (Not much) goes better and has 6 gears which is great, especially for towing, it has idle hold (maintains constant idle revs regardless of load offroad) requiring no throttle input for slow climbing & traction control (Mywife loves it). The interior is nicer but that is about it. The Puma electronics are worrisome especially on a long trip over corrugated dirt roads or in wet conditions, not sure on their reliability as we have some"issues" with them under warranty. In saying that, one could consider the newer the vehicle the more refined and better it should be. But conversely Land Rover has been making mechanics out of owners for years so the simpler the car the less to fix or go wrong, I like that option. My wife likes the newer Puma. I guess it is up to how much you have to spend and how much time you have and the level of mechanical support that is available for either vehicle. Older cars harder for parts newer cars computer analysis required for fault finding and repair. It sounds like your 200 TDI needs major work, have you considered a newer version such as a low mileage 300 TDI or a TD5? Might be a good compromise? I know this is not a high consideration for dedicated Landy owners such as us but woulden't resale value on a newer Defender be better than a rebuilt 200tdi? Regards Flatty

[Samblers]

The biggest thing I love with the 200Tdi is that I know it well having spent 5 years working on it already - I know most of it's quirks and mannerisms! I've done 130,000kms since I bought Safara and she's never let us down on a trip - maybe the odd small thing, but never something I couldn't fix.

^ Thats the clincher right there. On a big trip, i'd say thats invaluable.

Go the re-build :)

[PAT303]

Rebuilds aren't easy,have you got a shed/tools/knowledge and ability to do the build?,have you got the gumshon to see it through?.The Puma is turn key and no matter how much you spent on the 200 it's still and always will be a 1992 model defender.I'd park it in a shed and buy a TDCI,you can do the 200 while holidaying in the TDCi. Pat

[Blknight.aus]

rebuilds are easy, well at least if you've got something that was made to be worked on in the first place..

Grab the manuals and have at it, farm the machining out and enjoy the process.

hell upgrade some bits and pieces while your at it if you want why replace a part with the same bit when a better item can be had at about the same price.

[jakeslouw]

My opinion is stick with the 300TDi or a similar mechanical injection pump lump.

Diesel in Darkest Africa can be diesel, paraffin, power paraffin, aviation kerosene, and even home brew bio diesel depending on who is buying and selling what and where.

Even in South Africa, we have issues getting STABLE supplies of 50ppm, with 500ppm being the norm in remote rural areas.

Most guys use 200ml of good quality 2SO in a tank of suspect diesel, just in case.

A Puma with EGR, DPF etc etc is going to last maybe a couple of thousand kms before something clogs, breaks, or stops working.

In fact, the 300TDi 110 still gets a PREMIUM resale value over here, and not for no reason.

[samuelclarke]

We're going for the rebuild! :D Thank you all for sharing your opinion...also this awesome rebuild on Devon4x4's forums (http://www.devon4x4.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&view=topic&catid=16&id=131443&Itemid=106) kinda tipped us both in favour of doing similar to our Defender.

Winch bar, rocksliders and wheel carrier are already off being abrasive blasted before getting galvanised.

Been pricing up getting a Richards Chassis (http://www.richardschassis.co.uk) send from the UK, remanufactured 200Tdi from Turner Engineering (http://www.turner-engineering.co.uk) UK (surprisingly cheap) as well as other gear from people like Ashtree (http://www.ashtreelandrover.com) (galvanised bulkhead) and YRM Metal Solutions (http://www.yrmlandrover.com) (replacement body parts).

It's going to be a long and probably expensive process, one I'm sure we will curse many times during the rebuild...but ultimately we're going to have no regrets once it's done and have a Defender that is perfect for our needs...

Once things get more underway I'll start up a dedicated project thread. :)

[steane]

Noice :cool: Just put the invoices in a folder and never ever add them all up (I don't even open the folder anymore I just slide them in from the side).

It's an investment in a very cool 4x4 that you'll be able to keep pretty much forever.

[sashadidi]

If you are going to Africa go for the 200tdi as it will handle any rubbish, adulterated diesel that you may have to buy in the more remote parts where they dilute diesel with paraffin or any old rubbish they can find!!!
I heard of a guy with a land cruiser 70 series in Angola(6 cylinder) that used a racor fuel filler filter when filling up, had two inline racor type filters and still the injectors got stuffed!!! the 200tdi will handle it easy.

[newhue]

I have developed faith in my Tdci. And I am starting a learning process on potential problematic sensors and will eventually get a spare ECU married to the car. They are just spare parts for the vehicle like a fan belt.

I think however, if I knew what I do now, had the space, tools, and time I'd so exactly what you are doing. I'd ditch that space grabbing inefficient air conditioner though and fit one of the eskies on the roof. Probably forgo the roll gage to pay for it. Remember if its being built for tourer, every Kg is worth something. Most things have a trade off, and the reason I haven't added a roll cage to mine. Besides, if it rolls above 60 it's a write off regardless.