How much oil

[mowog]

I have attached a photo of my oil level. How much oil do you think the engine needs. Yes the level was checked the correct way.

[Disco4SE]

I have attached a photo of my oil level. How much oil do you think the engine needs. Yes the level was checked the correct way.
Hi Mowog,
When mine was 2 notches down, I put in 500ml (1/2 a litre) and it read spot on.
Hope that helps.

Cheers, Craig

[sniegy]

Approx. 300ml per notch.

Cheers

[mowog]

Thanks guys. Next question that was used in 6624klm. Would you consider that excessive?

[CaverD3]

Mine is there at 3600kms. The D3 soaked oil into the block at first and has not used any since.

[LGM]

Over 40,000ks on the clock and have never needed to add oil between oil changes. Having said that, I change the oil every 13,000ks. Haven't noticed any real drop in oil level at any time since I have had the vehicle. :)

[mowog]

Mine is there at 3600kms. The D3 soaked oil into the block at first and has not used any since.

The D4 has 51000 on it that oil was used in the last 6624 klm.

[CaverD3]

Looks like I need to get mine checked out.
Any white smoke mowog?

[Disco4SE]

I have travelled over 116,000Klms in my D4 3.0Lt.
The most I have seen it down is 2 notches.
Have been getting an oil & filter change every 13,000Klm's from new.

Cheers, Craig

[mowog]

I was getting the oil done every 6 months and there were no issues. Last 6 month service the oil wasn't changed. As the D4 had only done a few 1000 klm since the last service.

No white smoke that I can see.

[Celtoid]

My 3.0l has 66K on the clock. I don't change the oil at the interim service and it's never used a noticeable drop....even when it was having turbo issues.

I'd be asking questions. :(

[mowog]

My 3.0l has 66K on the clock. I don't change the oil at the interim service and it's never used a noticeable drop....even when it was having turbo issues.

I'd be asking questions. :(

Questions are being asked.

[Rollin over]

Mate my 3.0 has 47600km's and it has never had any oil added to it! Oh by the way I have been told by two dealers that when you fill them up only go to the 2nd last line so you don't overfill because it can bugger the turbo.

[mowog]

Are there any D4's with the Diesel Particulate Filter fitted(DPF)?

[Celtoid]

Are there any D4's with the Diesel Particulate Filter fitted(DPF)?

Yup, mine has.

[mowog]

I wonder then if the D4's with no oil consumption issues all have the DPF?

[Celtoid]

I wonder then if the D4's with no oil consumption issues all have the DPF?

Oh.....:confused:

So you're collecting stats that suggest that I pressume....but what's the engineering behind it do you think? So many folks pooh pooh the DPF.

[mowog]

Oh.....:confused:

So you're collecting stats that suggest that I pressume....but what's the engineering behind it do you think? So many folks pooh pooh the DPF.

I am not trying to pooh pooh anything. DPF are known to dilute oil I just wonder if this is the reason why no oil consumption is apparent.

[CaverD3]

Interesting point Rollin over. I had a lot of black on the back doors until recently. Seems much cleaner now the oil is lower.
Faulty guage or wrong calibration?

[Celtoid]

I am not trying to pooh pooh anything. DPF are known to dilute oil I just wonder if this is the reason why no oil consumption is apparent.

Bloody words....

Sorry mate, didn't mean that to sound like some sort of accusation....

Was just trying to work out how/why the DPF would play a part. I know folks don't like the possibility of extra fuel usage and heat generated but diluting engine oil is one I haven't heard of.

Dilute, as in....mix fuel with the oil....what do you mean?

Diluted oil doesn't sound good at all. Interested to see what the feedback is with DPF Vs Non-DPF.

Christ, we could be up there with the LC200.....:mad:

Cheers,

Kev.

[mowog]

One of the new diesel Mazda's were having issues with oil overfilling because oil dilution caused by the DPF. I had heard of other cars with similar issues. Seems it is mostly caused by short trips. I don't know why oil dilution occurs I just know it is factor on some cars.

[Celtoid]

One of the new diesel Mazda's were having issues with oil overfilling because oil dilution caused by the DPF. I had heard of other cars with similar issues. Seems it is mostly caused by short trips. I don't know why oil dilution occurs I just know it is factor on some cars.


OK mate, thanks. I'll have to look further into it.

I thought from your other post that for once somebody was going to say something good about a DPF.....LOL!!!!

[mowog]

Ok I will say something nice about a DPF.....

It's nice that I sold my Diesel Mini fitted with a DPF and brought a JCW Clubman with no DPF.

[Celtoid]

Ok I will say something nice about a DPF.....

It's nice that I sold my Diesel Mini fitted with a DPF and brought a JCW Clubman with no DPF.

Excellent!!!:D

[LRTech23]

I was getting the oil done every 6 months and there were no issues. Last 6 month service the oil wasn't changed. As the D4 had only done a few 1000 klm since the last service.

No white smoke that I can see.

Have you been doing that yourself or requesting it? The normal service intervals dictate that an oil and filter is changed every 26k's, not 13

[SBD4]

Have you been doing that yourself or requesting it? The normal service intervals dictate that an oil and filter is changed every 26k's, not 13

My Dealer gives me the choice. I choose to do it every 13k.

[mowog]

Have you been doing that yourself or requesting it? The normal service intervals dictate that an oil and filter is changed every 26k's, not 13

Because my D4 Tows a lot I was getting the oil done every 6 months. Last service it hadn't done many klm since it's last 12 month service. And it hadn't done much towing this year.

[Celtoid]

OK, just did a quick bit of Googling. Don't shoot the messenger, this is my quick take. :)

DPF equipped engines have a late cycle injection of more fuel when conducting a regen. This I believe increases the exhaust gas temp, thus burning off the stuff collected in the DPF. It appears common in a lot of brands that some of the extra fuel does not burn and gets forced past the the rings/pistons thus diluting the engine oil.

It appears that other brands have a system monitor acting on either increased oil level or a predicted dilution algorithm. Post service resets or calibrations are required. Usual signs, DPF light on and then going off after a regen is normal, light staying on means a possible dilution issue and a check is required.

What does a D4 have or do? Can the oil indicator over-read, to display an oil level concern or does it stop at full. I think there is an overfill warning but is there something specific to DPF fitted vehicles?

I don't know the answer to any of those questions....anybody?, anybody?

Cheers,

Kev.

[LRTech23]

There is an overfill warning, I've seen it once. I think the threshold is 500ml over full.

[SBD4]

OK, just did a quick bit of Googling. Don't shoot the messenger, this is my quick take. :)

DPF equipped engines have a late cycle injection of more fuel when conducting a regen. This I believe increases the exhaust gas temp, thus burning off the stuff collected in the DPF. It appears common in a lot of brands that some of the extra fuel does not burn and gets forced past the the rings/pistons thus diluting the engine oil.

It appears that other brands have a system monitor acting on either increased oil level or a predicted dilution algorithm. Post service resets or calibrations are required. Usual signs, DPF light on and then going off after a regen is normal, light staying on means a possible dilution issue and a check is required.

What does a D4 have or do? Can the oil indicator over-read, to display an oil level concern or does it stop at full. I think there is an overfill warning but is there something specific to DPF fitted vehicles?

I don't know the answer to any of those questions....anybody?, anybody?

Cheers,

Kev.

Very interesting info.

To identify if your D4 has a DPF have a look at this post by Sniegy:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/150379-dpf.html#post1681008

[mowog]

Mine does not have a DPF.

So can a DPF mask an oil consumption issue? I suppose the only way we will ever know is if a DPF equipped D4 gets its oil tested at the end of the service life of the oil...

[Tombie]

Just playing devils advocate.

You've gone 12 months?
And it reads as per your pic?

Because its between min and max I would suggest that reports as "no issue".

There's nothing wrong with an engine using a little oil. As long as its not excessive.

You tow heavy, perhaps it's burnt a little more depending on where you went (loaded harder etc)?

Just putting it out there!

[mowog]

Just playing devils advocate.

You've gone 12 months?
And it reads as per your pic?

Because its between min and max I would suggest that reports as "no issue".

There's nothing wrong with an engine using a little oil. As long as its not excessive.

You tow heavy, perhaps it's burnt a little more depending on where you went (loaded harder etc)?

Just putting it out there!

It hasn't been 12 months the oil was topped up at recent service less than 6 months ago. It has only done 6624klm since that top up.

Towing has been around 2000klm of that 6642klm.

[Celtoid]

Mine does not have a DPF.

So can a DPF mask an oil consumption issue? I suppose the only way we will ever know is if a DPF equipped D4 gets its oil tested at the end of the service life of the oil...

That's now my concern, thus the questions or statements about other brands having a built in ability to monitor dilution,,,,

[LRTech23]

I'm just going to put in something here.

I work on these cars every day, especially 3.0's. 3 notches down is normal for any car, every time I get a 6 month health check on one of these things it always has at least 2,3 of 4 notches on the display missing.

Diesels just use a bit of oil, that's all. Turbos leak, turbos burn oil, it's not really a big deal, and I'd say 99% of 3l's don't have DPF's, I'd get worried if you are losing over half a litre every six months with normal driving, you probably do use a bit more when towing, so just top it up. You guys seem to have gone in to way too much detail about this.

Also as far as I'm aware, one notch is 100ml

[mowog]

It is getting confusing now. Some say 300 per notch my dealer says 250 and here we have a guy who works on the saying it's 100.

The other issue here is actually getting oil for these when traveling you can't buy the oil anywhere...

[SBD4]

The manual says the car will tell you how much to put in if it needs it. Have a look at page 206/207.

http://topix.landrover.jlrext.com/topix/service/archive/62606/GTR_maintenance.pdf

"If the oil level is below the required operating range, a message advising you how much oil to add will be displayed, e.g. Add 0.5L. Add the recommended quantity of oil then recheck the level."

If the above message is a reasonable example of what you would get when the level drops too low, then it would seem LRTech23's amount would seem on the money.

My level is sitting at the same as Mowogs after ~9000km since oil change.

[LRTech23]

It is getting confusing now. Some say 300 per notch my dealer says 250 and here we have a guy who works on the saying it's 100.

The other issue here is actually getting oil for these when traveling you can't buy the oil anywhere...

The oil is very difficult to find, the oil we use is Castrol C1 Powerflow 5w/30. Clearly we get it directly from castrol and it is my understanding that t may only be available in 20 and 205l drums.

As for the oil level notches, 100ml is the general rule, but I have had some that have required half a litre for one notch. Those sensors are weird and I don't personally trust them all that much. But I suggest using 100ml per notch as a general rule. Always recheck after you have topped it up as well.

[CaverD3]

I think my full level may actually be below the sensor full level. I think it may have been burning oil till now.

[Celtoid]

I'm just going to put in something here.

I work on these cars every day, especially 3.0's. 3 notches down is normal for any car, every time I get a 6 month health check on one of these things it always has at least 2,3 of 4 notches on the display missing.

Diesels just use a bit of oil, that's all. Turbos leak, turbos burn oil, it's not really a big deal, and I'd say 99% of 3l's don't have DPF's, I'd get worried if you are losing over half a litre every six months with normal driving, you probably do use a bit more when towing, so just top it up. You guys seem to have gone in to way too much detail about this.

Also as far as I'm aware, one notch is 100ml

So working on these cars everyday, you'd know if LR have compensated for the vehicles that have DPFs or not. Do LR conduct viscosity tests on the oil or does the system compensate when measuring, like other brands do?

If it didn't warrant that level of detail, do you think other brands would have gone to the trouble (read expense) of developing monitoring systems for DPF equipped cars?

Two cars come into the workshop, one has a DPF the other doesn't, one is showing no oil usage (DPF), the other is.......wouldn't that trigger a question?

I'm scratching my head....if D4s that are running 'neat' oil are burning engine oil, what are DPF fitted vehicles really doing...and what is this loss of viscosity doing in terms of wear to the engine?

[LRTech23]

So working on these cars everyday, you'd know if LR have compensated for the vehicles that have DPFs or not. Do LR conduct viscosity tests on the oil or does the system compensate when measuring, like other brands do?

If it didn't warrant that level of detail, do you think other brands would have gone to the trouble (read expense) of developing monitoring systems for DPF equipped cars?

Two cars come into the workshop, one has a DPF the other doesn't, one is showing no oil usage (DPF), the other is.......wouldn't that trigger a question?

I'm scratching my head....if D4s that are running 'neat' oil are burning engine oil, what are DPF fitted vehicles really doing...and what is this loss of viscosity doing in terms of wear to the engine?

I've never heard of a viscosity test being carried out on a vehicle.

I wouldn't mind knowing why you think it would effect the engine oil in any way. I am not a master on the subject of DPF's but I can see no reason why a filter in the exhaust system that is not lubricated in any way would have an effect on the engine oil itself.

Please note that I am not being sarcastic, I am just interested. As I said I'm not a master on the subject and maybe you know something I don't.

[mowog]

I've never heard of a viscosity test being carried out on a vehicle.

I wouldn't mind knowing why you think it would effect the engine oil in any way. I am not a master on the subject of DPF's but I can see no reason why a filter in the exhaust system that is not lubricated in any way would have an effect on the engine oil itself.

Please note that I am not being sarcastic, I am just interested. As I said I'm not a master on the subject and maybe you know something I don't.

The Mazda CX5 diesel has been having issues with oil dilution and cars actually having oil overfills because of fuel dilution. How and why I don't understand either. This issue isn't limited to the Mazda.

[LRTech23]

Ok so I've been talking to the technical trainers for JLR Australia, they're saying the oil should only be effected if you have to do a forced regeneration, which is done by dealers, during a forced regen the oil temps get higher than they are designed to and begin to break the oil down. The oil must be changed after a forced regeneration, Which should only be done by a dealer or trained tech.

Other than this a DPF should not effect the oil, it may burn a little as the temperatures still get hot when it is doing a normal regeneration. And technically the manufacturer should use a higher grade oil to assist with the strain put on the engine. However they don't. Mainly because it adds cost, and because they deem that the same oil should be "ok".

LR share this mentality.

[LRTech23]

Also fuel dilution should not be an issue. If it was, LR would have made a recall on the vehicle. Any diesel in the oil can rot seals, blow turbos and even cause "runaway". I LR had any indication the oil had fuel in it there would be a very large recall I suspect.

[CaverD3]

LR like any manufactuer would be unlikely to do a recall for dilution as it is not a safety issue and by the time it causes any engine failure it will be way out of warrranty. :angel:
In fact LR are not the quickest at recalls; it took ages for them to do the brake servo issue recall.:mad:

It will be interesting to see the logevity of DPF equiped diesel engines over tyhe long haul.

[LRTech23]

LR like any manufactuer would be unlikely to do a recall for dilution as it is not a safety issue and by the time it causes any engine failure it will be way out of warrranty. :angel:

It will be interesting to see the logevity of DPF equiped diesel engines over tyhe long haul.

Runaway is a safety issue. But yes I agree.

[Celtoid]

I've never heard of a viscosity test being carried out on a vehicle.

I wouldn't mind knowing why you think it would effect the engine oil in any way. I am not a master on the subject of DPF's but I can see no reason why a filter in the exhaust system that is not lubricated in any way would have an effect on the engine oil itself.

Please note that I am not being sarcastic, I am just interested. As I said I'm not a master on the subject and maybe you know something I don't.

I, like yourself and many others couldn't figure out how an exhaust system component can affect engine oil. Then I did a quick google search (which I posted my take on earlier in this thread). Oil dilution on DPF fitted cars is a known issue (Mazda, Subaru and others)....well maybe issue isn't right, as the manufacturers have compensated for it with monitoring systems. I couldn't find anything on LR though, so not sure if their systems are completely different, if that is possible.

So here's the how again.....

An engine with a DPF (even under normal regen) regularily (how regular depends on variables I imagine) injects extra fuel into the cylinders. I'm not sure if the idea is to create more heat initially in the engine which gets transfered to the DPF or whether the intent is to actually get the fuel into the DPF (for a burn). I couldn't quite work out which in my quick read.

Anyway, it appears that some of this extra fuel can also get forced passed the pistons/rings and into the parts of the engine that are lubricated with oil. So that's what causes the dilution.

So unless LR engines are different there may be an issue. From what I read other manufacturers don't treat it as unusual or that it will only affect some DPF fitted vehicles. They have developed monitoring systems, so they must be treating it (dilution) as a given characteristic of a DPF fitted car.

I know that some piston equipped aircraft have fuel injection into their engine oil for extreme cold climate starting but this is factored into the engineering and it's only for start. How it affects the oil in the long term, I don't know. These 'cold start' events may have to be recorded in the aircraft log...thus affecting future maintenance activities.

So getting back to one of my earlier points...if D4s are using oil and they aren't fitted with a DPF, surely diluting the oil could be very bad for the engine.

As to your regen comments, I'm aware of two types.

Normal, which just happens every now and again to keep the DPF clean. No lights and is almost indiscernable to the driver.

There is another type (which I've actually seen on my D4) which initiates a warning light and a fault is recorded in the ECU. This is the one that the manual covers, that tells you to drive at a set speed for a period of time. It occurred when I'd been close to idle for ages, so I'm assuming it's to compensate for heavier build up.

I don't know what this forced regen is (that you mentioned), is that another level for even higher build-up of stuff in the DPF?

So, in conclussion...LOL....oil dilution is a fact of life in some DPF fitted vehicles....no ifs, buts, maybes. What I'd like to know is, are LRs different and if so, how so? And if they are not (as in they do get dilution) what gets done to manage that?

With only a very small percentage of LRs with a DPF I suppose it may not be well known about these possible issues (if there are any for LR) but it doesn't give owners much confidence if the folks working on their cars know nothing about the scenario, LR or other deisel engine.

I'm not a diesel mechanic and it only took me a few minutes on Google to get a drift of what the issues are, maybe a diesel mechanic could shed some light on the whole thing. Or are DPF fitted vehicles very rare and not particularly well known about?

Cheers,

Kev.

[LRTech23]

Yeah if you look up at my previous post where I talked to JLR technical Australia, you'll see they arn't aware of any dilution in our products. However that doesn't mean there isn't.

As you said we don't have many DPF vehicles in Australia, the only JLR one I have actually seen is the X-Type diesel with the ford Duratec engine.

The forced regen as I mentioned before requires the oil to be changed immediately after a forced regen because it breaks down the oil molecules from the heat generated, not because of oil dilution from fuel slipping past the rings or anything like that.

It's my understanding that engine wear WOULD be effected if there was more than 45% dilution. However if you get your car serviced regularly, and you drive the car correctly this should not be an issue.

The forced regen I mentioned is when the DPF warning light is red, and you need to get it cleared out by a technician, as you correctly guessed it is for large blockage, to the point that it needs to be forced out. Temperatures are extremely high in the exhaust during this process, a friend of mine who has done a couple of DPF forced regens on Alfa Romeos said on some models you need to have running water on the rear bumper so that it does not melt.

[Graeme]

An engine with a DPF (even under normal regen) regularily (how regular depends on variables I imagine) injects extra fuel into the cylinders. I'm not sure if the idea is to create more heat initially in the engine which gets transfered to the DPF or whether the intent is to actually get the fuel into the DPF (for a burn).
The late injection of fuel is to cause the catalytic converter to get to its maximum permissible temperature to produce the necessary heat to burn the downstream DPF contents. For the 3.0 this only occurs when the ecm detects from the DPF pre and post pressure sensors that a cleanout is required.

[Barryp]

I have attached the LR VIN Data (If it works) to tell if you have a PDF fitted, apparently not for Australia. My 2011 RR Sport definately doesn't have one.
In the 5th letter of the VIN on the 3 litre motor, it will be G if a PDF is fitted and an F if no PDF is fitted.
Of course you could also have a look underneath!
Regards
Barryp

[mowog]

The Answer to How Much Oil...

1.1 Liters were put in by the dealer.

[CaverD3]

It would seem the acuracy of these guages is poor and overfililling is likely.
Checked mine again and it was full. time for the oil to srttle is greater than the time allows. Leave longer and the reading changes. This does not bode well if the engine is overfilled.
If it is overfilled will the indicator go above tthe full mark?

[Celtoid]

The Answer to How Much Oil...

1.1 Liters were put in by the dealer.

So that's a little less than 20% of all your oil consumed in a few 1000ks....on a big road trip you could drink the tank dry in a few weeks.

Can that be right?

[mowog]

My D4 is now on an oil monitoring program. Based on the consumption it would use around 4L for 25000klm.

[Celtoid]

My D4 is now on an oil monitoring program. Based on the consumption it would use around 4L for 25000klm.

Cheers.

[Talby]

Hi Guys,
Id like to throw this question out there,
My D4 3.0lt doesn't have a DPF and the correct oil specified is the powerflow C1 5-30 which is designed to be used with engines with DPF filters as the oil is designed to burn off and reduce clogging the DPF.
So why can't I use the standard Castrol Edge 5-30 (full synthetic) as I don't have the DPF?
I used this in my diesel YD25 Pathfinder for 6 years and no problem.
LRTech 23 your thoughts?

[JamesH]

After reading this thread when it was "active" I went out and checked my oil level. It was two notches down from full. Since on this thread I saw that dealers often leave it at two notches down to be sure it isn't over filled, I didn't stress.

Now about 1200km later I see it is three notches down. This is still the full side of the centre line so really nothing to worry about but at this rate it is not going to make it to even the optional health check at 13000km

So how low should I let it go before I call up the dealer and book it in for a check and top up?

cheers

[CaverD3]

These monitors are only as accurate as the time the engine has been off. :mad:

Mine was down to just above half but the next time I checked the engine had been off longer and it was full. :o

I think the dealers know how inaccurate these were.
I also think mine was overfilled on pre delivery as I has a lot of black soot on the car until recently?

[JamesH]

Thanks. It has been off for about 5 hours so I would have thought it must be fairly settled by now but I'll check before starting it again (or I'll try to remember anyway)

[dazray]

My MY11 D4 was using oil, but only when towing our 23ft
caravan. Checked under the bonnet and could see a very fine
Mist of oil on the front top area of the engine. Took it to
the dealer and they said it was a faulty oil pressure sensor
seal. Had it replaced at next service and never used a drop
on our next trip away in the caravan.
Daz..