RAAF retiring the C130-H

[Svengali0]

Impending retirement of the C130 Hercules. Air vice Marshall Evans in interview comparing the C130 with a cross between a Cadillac and a Land Rover.

RAAF farewells flying Cadillacs - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-19/raaf-farewells-flying-cadillacs/4379850)

Posted here because the C130 was/is- roughly contemporaneous with the S 111 & perentie Land Rovers (34 years).

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The ABC has reported the retirement of the C130-H RAAF farewells flying Cadillacs - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-19/raaf-farewells-flying-cadillacs/4379850)

What are they replacing that capability with?

[THE BOOGER]

As far as i know the J model is not retireing but we are getting more c17s we just lose 1 sqn of hercs:(


PS: just found this http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/spewing-last-days-of-the-c-130h-hercules/story-fndo317g-1226519854974

seem we are also getting more of the j model

[Celtoid]

RAAF still has J models.

They also have more C17s than they can crew/use.

I believe they have also signed a deal for a LTAC replacement....as in a new Caribou type aircraft.

So they should have all levels of distance, load and access sorted.

[juddy]

They are looking at further C17's as are the Uk, Congress want to close the line, so more orders would help. Boeing are also seeking civilian certification for the C17.

The new medium transport is the C27J Spartan, some would say we should have gone with the other tender from Airbus, but as the USAF, is on the vege of retiring all its nearly new C27s, then one wonders why the C27J?

[JohnF]

They are looking at further C17's as are the Uk, Congress want to close the line, so more orders would help. Boeing are also seeking civilian certification for the C17.

The new medium transport is the C27J Spartan, some would say we should have gone with the other tender from Airbus, but as the USAF, is on the vege of retiring all its nearly new C27s, then one wonders why the C27J?

Perhaps we should buy the US airforce C27 and refurbish them. The US Airforce also retired their Caribous very early while Australia contnued to use them decades later, but the Caribou did us good service for many years.

Same with the F111. The USA got rid of them but we continued to use them. And they were a great plane--very capable for what they were designed to do.

But the US keeps spending Military budgets, and you cannot but new toys while you clutter up the place with the old ones, so in order to always get a new toy they always retire the old ones while they have decades of life left in them.

And the companies selling the New toys spend billions on the buyers in order to get the orders. So that buyers will always be telling Mummy Purse Strings-- We need that new Toy, buy it for us.

See the US always want gigantic planes, thinking bigger is better, so a relatively small plane like the C27 does not suit their mentality. And Boeing do want to sell more Planes & Parts, so one that is compatable with the C130 in parts and instrumentation-- a pilot can hop from one to the other, does not suit them so they would be pressurising the US to buy more toys, and discard the old ones.

I have often thought the C27 would be an ideal Caribou replacement-- Assuming it has no mechanical problems/is not a lemon.

[Celtoid]

They are looking at further C17's as are the Uk, Congress want to close the line, so more orders would help. Boeing are also seeking civilian certification for the C17.

The new medium transport is the C27J Spartan, some would say we should have gone with the other tender from Airbus, but as the USAF, is on the vege of retiring all its nearly new C27s, then one wonders why the C27J?

I don't know what they want more for, they can't use the ones they have. Sure they are in the process of crewing up but is there a need for more? They can't even park the ones they have as they have shared real estate with the MTTR.

Good question about the C27J.....also made a little gray by the fact that Defence didn't even tender.

[Celtoid]

Perhaps we should buy the US airforce C27 and refurbish them. The US Airforce also retired their Caribous very early while Australia contnued to use them decades later, but the Caribou did us good service for many years.

Same with the F111. The USA got rid of them but we continued to use them. And they were a great plane--very capable for what they were designed to do.

But the US keeps spending Military budgets, and you cannot but new toys while you clutter up the place with the old ones, so in order to always get a new toy they always retire the old ones while they have decades of life left in them.

And the companies selling the New toys spend billions on the buyers in order to get the orders. So that buyers will always be telling Mummy Purse Strings-- We need that new Toy, buy it for us.

See the US always want gigantic planes, thinking bigger is better, so a relatively small plane like the C27 does not suit their mentality. And Boeing do want to sell more Planes & Parts, so one that is compatable with the C130 in parts and instrumentation-- a pilot can hop from one to the other, does not suit them so they would be pressurising the US to buy more toys, and discard the old ones.

I have often thought the C27 would be an ideal Caribou replacement-- Assuming it has no mechanical problems/is not a lemon.

How does the C27J compare to the V22 in load and range? I suspect it could fly faster and further. Just wondering if the V22 has reduced the need for the C27.

There is no real replacement for a Caribou, there is a slight capability shift. They lack the awesome STOL of a Bou...not that they are bad but can't get in where Bous can. However, they are a lot quicker and can fly further. I'm certain they can carry more load.

However, there were some Australian trials of the LTAC options and all proved to be less robust than the Bou, with damaged props, gear doors and bellys.

Shed load more reliable I bet though.....LOL!!!

[juddy]

V22, good but very very very expensive....

[Celtoid]

The Hercs would be useful for returning illegal immigrants to their countries of origin or to UNHCR camps in some pleasant tropical paradise.

Not big enough cargo space....however, all those unused C17s....LOL!!!

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The Hercs would be useful for returning illegal immigrants to their countries of origin or to UNHCR camps in some pleasant tropical paradise.That's what they did with our C130-C's at the time of the famine in Eritrea/Ethopia during the 1980s. Ex-RAAF Hercs were being used by the UN WFP to distribute food aid.

[JDNSW]

The attraction of the C27J is that it shares engines and some other systems with the C130J.

If you want to consider aircraft longevity, how about the B52 - it has already been in service for almost sixty years, and is intended to remain in service until about 2050.

John

[Sleepy]

Let's not forget the ADF often sub contract a lot of work to civvies. Whether it is Strategic Airlines (before they morphed into Australian Airlines and got gobbled up by the competition) or numerous other Illusion 76 transports heading west.

Often the laborious logistics roles can be delegated to civvies, leaving the real dangerous stuff for the experts!

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Let's not forget the ADF often sub contract a lot of work to civvies. Whether it is Strategic Airlines (before they morphed into Australian Airlines and got gobbled up by the competition) or numerous other Illusion 76 transports heading west.

Often the laborious logistics roles can be delegated to civvies, leaving the real dangerous stuff for the experts!cue?

Morphed into Australian Airlines :confused:

Trans-Australian Airways was a wholly government owned civil domestic carrier that operated between 1946 and 1986 when the government changed its name into Australian Airlines and in 1996 merged it with the government international carrier Qantas prior to privatisation.

Are you talking about Air Australia Airways? A flash in the pan operator out of Brisbane in the 1990s.

Remember about the same time IPEC Air Freight ran at least one Herc on domestic freight routes.

[87County]

That's what they did with our C130-C's at the time of the famine in Eritrea/Ethopia during the 1980s. Ex-RAAF Hercs were being used by the UN WFP to distribute food aid.

As far as the C-130s go, to date the RAAF has or has had the C-130A, E, H & J (current), which were purchased 12 of each at a time as the model became available and issued alternately to 36 & 37 SQNs.

Each model had its service life extended with extensive rebuilds including in some cases new wing structures.

The C-130J is the peak of the development of the aircraft to date - with vast increases in carrying capacity, range & performance over earier models. I like the LR comparison because I like both, having spent a little time in cam ones of each. The C-130H was the green camo one (and a few different cam schemes were tried with them and the 'Bous - anoher fabulous aircraft).

The remaining J models are a different cam - a lo-visibilty grey (which is probably why you don't see them?) :)

[THE BOOGER]

As far as the C-130s go, to date the RAAF has or has had the C-130A, E, J (for "j"ust retired :)) & H (current), which were purchased 12 of each at a time as the model became available and issued alternately to 36 & 37 SQNs.

Each model had its service life extended with extensive rebuilds including in some cases new wing structures.

The C-130H is the peak of the development of the aircraft to date - with vast increases in carrying capacity, range & performance over earier models. I like the LR comparison because I like both, spending a little time in cam ones of each.

I think its the h model being retired and replaced with the j model:)

[87County]

I think its the h model being retired and replaced with the j model:)


yep - got away on me I guess:) .. is age an excuse ? thanks Booger I think I've fixed it up now...

[Lotz-A-Landies]

As far as the C-130s go, to date the RAAF has or has had the C-130A, E, H & J (current), ...Ok it was the C-130A I was talking about.

[Sleepy]

cue?

Morphed into Australian Airlines :confused:

Trans-Australian Airways was a wholly government owned civil domestic carrier that operated between 1946 and 1986 when the government changed its name into Australian Airlines and in 1996 merged it with the government international carrier Qantas prior to privatisation.

Are you talking about Air Australia Airways? A flash in the pan operator out of Brisbane in the 1990s.

Remember about the same time IPEC Air Freight ran at least one Herc on domestic freight routes.

Nah not Taa Diana. The one that went broke last year Air Australia - they had the A320 s to Thailand - I may not have got the name exact . That iPEC herc was only very short lived. I think it was even a wet leased. I remember the iPEC argosy droning all the way to Adelaide and back ......sorry thread drift....:)

[juddy]

The RAAF, are doing what the RAF are doing getting rid of the C130s....

[Celtoid]

The RAAF, are doing what the RAF are doing getting rid of the C130s....

Really? Why would they get rid of Hercs?

Can you land a C17 on a strip a Herc can get in on?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

With UK/NATO strategic planning, I don't think the RAF wants to use any short strips where they get their wheels dusty anymore.

In Australia and SE Asia we're full of dusty short strips.

[juddy]

Thats because the RAF are getting the Atlas, akk A400m, and Australia may well follow suit.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Thats because the RAF are getting the Atlas, akk A400m, and Australia may well follow suit.But the RAAF has already announced that they are getting more J models to replace the decommissioned H models.

RAAF Retiring-C130-H post 3 (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/flight/163452-raaf-retiring-c130-h.html#post1800405) "It's the last flight of the RAAF’s work horse the C-130H Hercules at Richmond Airforce Base, with all 12 in the Australian fleet being decommissioned to make way for the newer C-130J model."

[Sleepy]

Thats because the RAF are getting the Atlas, akk A400m, and Australia may well follow suit.

That's an awesome looking aircraft Juddy!:o

A400 M: the versatile airlifter, strategic and tactical capabilities, operational flexibility | Airbus*| Airbus, a leading aircraft manufacturer (http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamilies/military-aircraft/a400m/)

[Celtoid]

Thats because the RAF are getting the Atlas, akk A400m, and Australia may well follow suit.

Looks like a J model....

Why would Australia do that?

[Sleepy]

Looks like a J model....

Why would Australia do that?

140,000 MTOW vs. 80,000kg ?

C17 = 265,000 kg

[Celtoid]

140,000 MTOW vs. 80,000kg ?

C17 = 265,000 kg

Getting the weight in air is one thing, but can they land with it...LOL??? :wasntme:

But seriously folks....

Identifying a platform that is good or better than what you currently have is one thing but it doesn't mean anything really.

Have they been identified as a new aircraft type that the ADF are getting? Is there a need for a heavier payload Herc equivilent?

I find it hard to believe that with the complete shortage of money Defence has right now that a new platform would be getting identified for a role that is already covered. I haven't heard anything about a RFT to achieve this outcome being on the street....however, Defence pulled a swifty with the Spartan deal, so who knows.

On the RAF....they have never been happy with their C130Js and feel that Lockheed Martin were deceiptful in their actions when selling the aircraft. I heard that the British Government had a punch-up with the US Government over it....had parked aircraft and refused to fly them etc, etc. I've heard none of those such noises in Australia.

Where has this idea come from?

And considering the less than stellar success of other EADS platforms....not sure the ADF would want to go there with another.

[Sleepy]

I would suggest it's all just supposition given that those in the know wouldn't be posting about it here.;)

[Celtoid]

I would suggest it's all just supposition given that those in the know wouldn't be posting about it here.;)

Not always true ...

If the D has already been made and is official, well it's all above board.

Even if it's still being competed, companies often show their hand to get political and public points.

Take AIR9000 for instance...many companies announced their intentions and partnerships quite early in the piece. The final D still hasn't been made.

[Sleepy]

Not always true ...

If the D has already been made and is official, well it's all above board.

Even if it's still being competed, companies often show their hand to get political and public points.

Take AIR9000 for instance...many companies announced their intentions and partnerships quite early in the piece. The final D still hasn't been made.

Why are you arguing with me about this? I just made a guess as to why someone would buy an A400m. Up until three posts ago I'd never heard of one. But reading the stats they are bigger than the C130, of any designation, and therefore maybe that would be why "Australia would do that".

I now realise that you were asking a rhetorical question.

I dont have any more. :wallbash:

[42rangie]

My sister is an engineer at Lockheed in Marietta. The C27J and C130J had overlapping development. The C27J was also developed with Aliena in Italy. Somehow, Boeing got ahold of it.
Both J models do what it says on the tin. The Ohio Air Guard Group have four C27J's here in Mansfield. They had C130H's here before. Now they want to take the C27J's away. This is a top notch, award winning unit.
It seems that politics wins over sense again.
Lot of good info on the net for both aircraft.

Les

[Celtoid]

Why are you arguing with me about this? I just made a guess as to why someone would buy an A400m. Up until three posts ago I'd never heard of one. But reading the stats they are bigger than the C130, of any designation, and therefore maybe that would be why "Australia would do that".

I now realise that you were asking a rhetorical question.

I dont have any more. :wallbash:

LOL....I wasn't argueing....I was looking for a conspiracy theory....:)

Nah, it was serious question that I asked Juddy originally. As in had he heard something official or was it just supposition.

It might make lots of practical sense but a wish list is different to a real outcome.....otherwise we'd probably have F22s....LOL!!! (@$320M a pop!)

[jb747]

That's an awesome looking aircraft Juddy!:o

A400 M: the versatile airlifter, strategic and tactical capabilities, operational flexibility | Airbus*| Airbus, a leading aircraft manufacturer (http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamilies/military-aircraft/a400m/)

And I expect that like most Airbus aircraft it will mostly be made of promises.

[juddy]

US Scraps Afghan Cargo Plane Fleet | Military.com (http://www.military.com/daily-news/2012/12/28/us-scraps-afghan-cargo-plane-fleet.html)

Maybe we will get these, what a waste..

[42rangie]

Some C27J photos. The ones where engines are running were taken by me at the Mansfield/Lahm Airport, home of the 179 Airlift Squadron/Ohio Air National Guard. They have four at the moment. They routinely fly to Afghanistan.

Les

[42rangie]

Forgot photos. Oldtimers disease.

[42rangie]

Have you seen the Blue Angels "Fat Albert" take off with RATO? My understanding is that the C130J can do that without the rockets. It also has higher weight capacity, higher ceiling, longer range, and better fuel economy.
Your milage may vary.

Les