Anti roll bars in defender 90

[lackuwaxa]

Hi guys, looking at the new my13 parts and price options catalogue it has listed that you can swap the boost alloys for hd steel wheels with Goodyear mtr's for bout $470 .. However it says in the brackets that this will remove the front and rear anti roll bars .. Why would this be? And how would it affect the on road handling? I'd prefer steel as u can't beat alloy back into shape when u bend em and I prefer the look of the steelies ..

Wade

[debruiser]

Hi Wade,

I was talking to a dealer about steels on a 90 yesterday. (I'm getting a 2013 D90 as well :)) He was saying that they could NOT supply a 90 with steels because they are too heavy for the ABS system, ie the system isn't rated for that much "spinning weight" (whatever you call it). And apparently there is some rule that they can't...

BUT he then went on to say (and I think this is the important part for you and I) that he didn't think that steels where a good idea on a 90. He seemed somewhat disappointed by his own argument here; he likes the look of steels on a 90....

reasons he gave me are:
- the extra mass of the wheels means that when going over rough roads they exaggerate the bouncy nature of a 90 - alloys don't do this as much because of the suspension set up
- he also argued that the steels did not handle (steering wise) as nicely at the alloys.

His suggestion to me was "drive your new 90 on the alloys for a bit. If you decide you want steels, go for it. BUT keep your alloys! within one week you will be changing them back over."

Now I guess 70% of all that is HIS opinion. I was on the phone to him for 45mins (he's a dealer in another town) and he seemed to know what he was talking about; A real land rover guy....

I have only driven 1 D90 about 8kms - it had something like 50kms on the clock and had alloys so my knowledge of D90s is VERY limited.... but using his argument you could keep your alloys and run on them for everyday use, then purchase a set of steels with nice angry tyres for "play time" :D

I won't be doing this.... I'm just going to run on the alloys at least until I wear out the first set of tyres.... BUT i have a Series 3 109 in the shed for "play time" so my 90 is only going to do daily drive and light non-beach 4x4 work. at least until it gets a bit older.... :twisted:

[lackuwaxa]

Attached is a scan of the back page of the 2013 Model Specifications for the Defender ..

You can't get the HD steelies on a 110 SW, but it seems pretty clear that you can on a 90 SW .. I haven't driven a Puma 90 with steelies before, but I have driven a older 300tdi one with .. I get that they are heavier, but i'm pretty sure the running gear is identical between the models ..

I'm just confused why they would require the removal of the sway bars, especially on a 90, on road they do get a bit of the old boat action happening, i would think that that would be exacerbated (made worse ;)) without the sways in ..

Wade

p.s. I noticed that the 90 gets the Heavy Duty Suspension as standard in the 2013 model, pretty sure that wasn't an option in the 2012, but i may be wrong

[debruiser]

You are right.... it says you can get them....

I was just going off what I was told... hadn't looked it up. That's interesting that 2013 gets the HD suspension... I like it :)

My understanding of sway bars is that they stop/cut down on left/right sway ie for cornering. Straight line "boat action" wouldn't change as far as I can see. BUT I'm no mechanic... nor engineer....

[KarlB]

You need to be mindful that alloy rims are very much stronger than steel and consequently you are far more likely to damage steel rims. Also, steel rims, being about one third heavier than alloy, will result in poorer braking, reduced acceleration, and higher fuel consumption. As for the repairability of rims in the bush, small dents in either can be bashed back. Any sever damage to a steel rim would require, at a minimum, a bloody big sledge hammer, but most likely specialist equipment, including welding gear. You need to think about the circumstances under which you may damage a rim. It is most likely to occur when you are running low tyre pressures and driving too fast. The two should never go together. A much more sensible way of dealing with concern for potential rim damage is to carry two spares.

Cheers
KarlB
:)

[rick130]

You need to be mindful that alloy rims are very much stronger than steel and consequently you are far more likely to damage steel rims. Also, steel rims, being about one third heavier than alloy, will result in poorer braking, reduced acceleration, and higher fuel consumption.
[snip]
Cheers
KarlB
:)

Broad, broad brush strokes there, Karl.
Almost Rolf Harrisesque :D

Put it this way, no Land Rover factory aluminium alloy rim has the rated load capacity of the HD 6.5" steel rim.

At best they're half the rating.

Really good alloy rims like Performance's TX-1 or Compomotive Rallye Raid ones are brilliant, but not all are built that tough.

As for the increase in unsprung weight and a noticeable difference on an already bloody heavy live axle and we already have LT tyres is starting to draw a long bow.

I'd be happy with either, but only an HD aluminium rim.

[rick130]

[snip]

My understanding of sway bars is that they stop/cut down on left/right sway ie for cornering. Straight line "boat action" wouldn't change as far as I can see. BUT I'm no mechanic... nor engineer....

More correctly called anti-roll bars, they reduce body roll but have no effect in pitch or squat, ie. fore and aft load transfer.

[jimr1]

Hi guys, looking at the new my13 parts and price options catalogue it has listed that you can swap the boost alloys for hd steel wheels with Goodyear mtr's for bout $470 .. However it says in the brackets that this will remove the front and rear anti roll bars .. Why would this be? And how would it affect the on road handling? I'd prefer steel as u can't beat alloy back into shape when u bend em and I prefer the look of the steelies ..

Wade
Hi Wade $470 to swop Boosts for steel , sounds like the deeler is giving less and charging more . The 90 has been around for a long time fitted with steel wheels . I can't see what differance steel vs alloy can make , I would have thought tyre type, and tread pattern for handling . Also you would have to be driving hard to damage an alloy . If it were me I would put the $470 towards a second hand set of wheels and tyres for off road . regards , jimr1 ...

[lackuwaxa]

Hi jimr1,

Sorry that's the steel with the Goodyear mtr's .. The mtr's on the alloys are also $470 .. So essentially it's a free swap alloy for steel ..

My question isn't a value question, it's more about if anyone knows why the steelies require the anti roll bars to be removed .. Off road no roll bars can be a good thing can give u more articulation, but not so great on road .. I have always run steel on my 4bys and just prefer it .. On a live axle I can't imagine the small weight increase would cause any noticeable difference ..

Wade

[rick130]

Hi jimr1,

it's more about if anyone knows why the steelies require the anti roll bars to be removed ..


Wade

The anti-roll bars are often optional, they have been on and off in the 110 over the years.
The wheels won't make a difference to whether you have the ARB's fitted or not, it'll be an option pack thing. ie, 265/75 tyres, we reckon you need ARB's and we'll charge appropriately, 7.50/16's, you won't be driving it as hard as the tyre isn't as stable so we'll forego ARB's and save the company some $

And FWIW the 130 has always come with ARB's front and rear and it's fitted with the 6.5" HD steel wheels.

[Loubrey]

A 90 without it's anti roll bars would be plain dangerous at anything approaching freeway speeds. One would hope it's an error in the catalogue...

I've only ever seen them removed on trialers that ride on trailers to evens.

Cheers,

Lou

[Reads90]

A 90 without it's anti roll bars would be plain dangerous at anything approaching freeway speeds. One would hope it's an error in the catalogue...

I've only ever seen them removed on trialers that ride on trailers to evens.

Cheers,

Lou

No need to check you history.

Defender 90's did not have anti roll bars. Or swing away bars. What ever you want to call them. Until the TD5.

My 90 or 110 does not have them.

In fact when off roading, a lot take them off as they effect your axel travel and articulation.

[Bush65]

Attached is a scan of the back page of the 2013 Model Specifications for the Defender ..

You can't get the HD steelies on a 110 SW, but it seems pretty clear that you can on a 90 SW .. I haven't driven a Puma 90 with steelies before, but I have driven a older 300tdi one with .. I get that they are heavier, but i'm pretty sure the running gear is identical between the models ..

I'm just confused why they would require the removal of the sway bars, especially on a 90, on road they do get a bit of the old boat action happening, i would think that that would be exacerbated (made worse ;)) without the sways in ..

Wade

p.s. I noticed that the 90 gets the Heavy Duty Suspension as standard in the 2013 model, pretty sure that wasn't an option in the 2012, but i may be wrong


Hi jimr1,

Sorry that's the steel with the Goodyear mtr's .. The mtr's on the alloys are also $470 .. So essentially it's a free swap alloy for steel ..

My question isn't a value question, it's more about if anyone knows why the steelies require the anti roll bars to be removed .. Off road no roll bars can be a good thing can give u more articulation, but not so great on road .. I have always run steel on my 4bys and just prefer it .. On a live axle I can't imagine the small weight increase would cause any noticeable difference ..

Wade
I think you provided the answer yourself. If the 90 gets heavy duty suspension as standard, then it won't have anti-roll bars (is stated on the options page you scanned and attached).

Heavier rate springs provide more roll resistance, so it would seem enough for Land Rover not to fit anti-roll bars.

[rick130]

People assume anti-roll bars are a major safety item when they aren't, all they do is limit body roll which is more a comfort factor.

An ARB won't limit or stop a car rolling over, that is governed by CofG height and gravity and usually involves tripping over something anyway.

Actually, an anti-roll bar limits grip, it's a lateral load transfer device that transfers load from the heavily loaded wheel (the outside tyre) across the axle to the inside tyre and diagonally across the chassis to the inside tyre at the opposite end.
An ARB reduces the roll angle but increases the slip angle.

The rough rule of thumb in chassis dynamics is that springs control grip and ARB's control balance, although in reality they work hand in glove.

On independent suspension they can be used to tie a car down to limit camber gain or change and so can help grip when a wheel would normally have to much camber gain, upsetting the contact patch, I've done this on some cars, McPherson struts and swing axles (eg Ford F100) can benefit from this.
Live axles don't.

Where an anti-roll bar can have a good benefit is in transitions such as quick left to right turns, the chassis can respond more quickly to the steering input rather than lurch.

[Loubrey]

No need to check you history.

Defender 90's did not have anti roll bars. Or swing away bars. What ever you want to call them. Until the TD5.

My 90 or 110 does not have them.

In fact when off roading, a lot take them off as they effect your axel travel and articulation.

Reads,

Not wanting to argumentative, but I've just checked photographs of my previous 90's which were in order:

'96 Africa spec - fitted with anti roll bar
'94 UK Spec - not fitted with anti roll bar (OEM coils, not sure if HD)
'96 UK Spec - fitted with anti roll bar
'98 UK Spec - fitted with anti roll bar

All 300 Tdi's and I'm just referring to the rear one piece item between the axle and chassis mounts. Photographs attached of the Africa spec '96 (poor resolution, but definitely has it fitted) and the UK spec '98 (day after I bought it, still looking rough!) where you can clearly see it fitted.

Rick's explanation makes sense with the HD Coils, but I drove my '98 (on standard OEM coils) only once without the bar attached and the body roll was uncomfortable IMO.

I think we high jacked the thread in any case, so I'll concede that 90's obviously don't need them when other settings are adjusted to suit.

Cheers,

Lou

[KarlB]

This article on steel vs alloy rims, while far from perfect, is worth a read: Age Old Rivalry | Australian 4WD Action (http://www.4wdaction.com.au/articles/2012/age-old-rivalry).

As for heavy duty suspension, my MY11 D90, purchased in 2010 came with it as standard. It also has anti-roll bars, so HD suspension and ARB are not mutually exclusive (on a D90 at least).

Cheers
KarlB
:)

[lackuwaxa]

I think you provided the answer yourself. If the 90 gets heavy duty suspension as standard, then it won't have anti-roll bars (is stated on the options page you scanned and attached).

Heavier rate springs provide more roll resistance, so it would seem enough for Land Rover not to fit anti-roll bars.

No, if you have the alloys the ARB's stay, if you put the steelies on you lose the ARB's .. and apparently that is the same for the MY2013 130 aswell, though with that, it is even more arbitary as you get the ARB's with the HD steel and continentals, but the HD steel and MTR's you dont .. the only thing that I can think is that maybe the HD steel/MTR combination results in a tyre too wide to work with the ARB and maybe it rubs?? but the MTR's on the alloys you still get the ARB's?? This is very confusing ..

Wade

[Loubrey]

Wade,

If you look at the photo of the Alveston Red 90, you'll see how far inboard the ARB actually sits. You would have to come in nearly 200mm to 250mm to get close to them.

I agree that this is very confusing!

IMO I reckon to go with the OME alloys and the standard 50/50 Grabbers and get a set of Mach 5's (first choice) steels with muddies for play and offroad touring or if like me you can't afford them, get some ZU alloys for the same options!

This is my current Puma 90 with my "Option" wheel and tyres. The ZU alloys (6 no)were purchased from the UK and delivered Karratha in the Pilbara for a lot less that the "over the counter" price in Perth...

Cheers,

Lou

[lackuwaxa]

I think you are right mate ..

just spoke with the service manager at my local, he is gonna clarify with LRA .. it may be a typo, coz it also says on the back that the ARB's are standard except with HD suspension .. but HD suspension is now standard ??? ..

I will post the answer from LRA when it comes ..

Wade

[Reads90]

Reads,

Not wanting to argumentative, but I've just checked photographs of my previous 90's which were in order:

'96 Africa spec - fitted with anti roll bar
'94 UK Spec - not fitted with anti roll bar (OEM coils, not sure if HD)
'96 UK Spec - fitted with anti roll bar
'98 UK Spec - fitted with anti roll bar

All 300 Tdi's and I'm just referring to the rear one piece item between the axle and chassis mounts. Photographs attached of the Africa spec '96 (poor resolution, but definitely has it fitted) and the UK spec '98 (day after I bought it, still looking rough!) where you can clearly see it fitted.

Rick's explanation makes sense with the HD Coils, but I drove my '98 (on standard OEM coils) only once without the bar attached and the body roll was uncomfortable IMO.

I think we high jacked the thread in any case, so I'll concede that 90's obviously don't need them when other settings are adjusted to suit.

Cheers,

Lou

Hi

My 1995 300 tdi uk spec

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/133.jpg

And my 1998 110 Aus spec.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/134.jpg

Neither have them fitted and never have had them fitted.

Must be a change in spec and an add on.
. But enough to say they are not dangerous with out them.

Ali

[uninformed]

Im sure I read a post in this thread where someone said that a 90 without ARB's would be down right dangerous.....

I would really like to know the thinking behind this

[Psimpson7]

There is some nonsense about anti roll bars posted as 'fact' here. This has been discussed before... Just beacuse versions of the 90 sold here in earlier models may have had them doesn't mean that all 90's did.

TD5 90's were available without anti roll bars. most 'commercial' versions wouldn't have them by default, unless at the time it was optioned with the heavy duty suspension pack whcih included them along with vented front discs. commercial ie, pick up or hardtop (no rear windows)

My TD5 has no anti roll bars, and thats how it left the factory, and its handling when I got it standard was fine.

It wouldnt suprise me if lower spec versions of the current model were avaialble without them aswell. (in other markets) but I dont know for certain any more.

[jimr1]

People assume anti-roll bars are a major safety item when they aren't, all they do is limit body roll which is more a comfort factor.

An ARB won't limit or stop a car rolling over, that is governed by CofG height and gravity and usually involves tripping over something anyway.

Actually, an anti-roll bar limits grip, it's a lateral load transfer device that transfers load from the heavily loaded wheel (the outside tyre) across the axle to the inside tyre and diagonally across the chassis to the inside tyre at the opposite end.
An ARB reduces the roll angle but increases the slip angle.

The rough rule of thumb in chassis dynamics is that springs control grip and ARB's control balance, although in reality they work hand in glove.

On independent suspension they can be used to tie a car down to limit camber gain or change and so can help grip when a wheel would normally have to much camber gain, upsetting the contact patch, I've done this on some cars, McPherson struts and swing axles (eg Ford F100) can benefit from this.
Live axles don't.

Where an anti-roll bar can have a good benefit is in transitions such as quick left to right turns, the chassis can respond more quickly to the steering input rather than lurch.
Hi wade you must admit Rick makes his piont so very eloquently . I can uderstand why you are confused . At this point I would like to say i'm a 110 man , I have drove 110s with arbs and without , as you have said arbs restrict suspention travel . I've never noticed any big changes to body roll but then again I don't drive as hard as some poeple . I have never drove a 90 so I will let the 90 drivers make there coments , Cheers jimr1 ...

[Loubrey]

There is some nonsense about anti roll bars posted as 'fact' here. This has been discussed before... Just beacuse versions of the 90 sold here in earlier models may have had them doesn't mean that all 90's did.

TD5 90's were available without anti roll bars. most 'commercial' versions wouldn't have them by default, unless at the time it was optioned with the heavy duty suspension pack whcih included them along with vented front discs. commercial ie, pick up or hardtop (no rear windows)

My TD5 has no anti roll bars, and thats how it left the factory, and its handling when I got it standard was fine.

It wouldnt suprise me if lower spec versions of the current model were avaialble without them aswell. (in other markets) but I dont know for certain any more.

I did qualify my statement as "In My Opinion" and not Land Rover design facts.

I replaced the mounting bushes of the ARB and drove the 90 without it being attached to the chassis and "In My Opinion" the body roll was significantly pronounced and unpleasant.

Possibly just a comfort issue, but still my opinion...:D

Cheers,

Lou

[lackuwaxa]

Turns out its a typo, spoke with the dealer and he contacted LRA, apparently they all ship out with ARBs .. He told me that they can't be sold without the ARBs as it would fail the ADR, which is something that was discussed when the army started selling off all the 110s ..

Don't really wanna get into an argument, as Lou says, In My Opinion a 90 without ARBs at highway speed would be uncomfortable and dangerous, I find the old 90s jittery enough.

Wade

[Rickoz]

Hi guys, looking at the new my13 parts and price options catalogue it has listed that you can swap the boost alloys for hd steel wheels with Goodyear mtr's for bout $470 .. However it says in the brackets that this will remove the front and rear anti roll bars .. Why would this be? And how would it affect the on road handling? I'd prefer steel as u can't beat alloy back into shape when u bend em and I prefer the look of the steelies ..
Wade
I was at the Dealers today pricing a D90 with HD Steel Rims too, it's still only $470 increase & in the Book & a phone call to parts department LR swop the Springs to for HD Springs at N/C no mention of sway bars being removed.
I would love to have a D90 with HD steels but will miss out on the Main Event Deal if i do as the D90 needs to be paid & collected before end of March & if one is to be ordered today it will come in after March therefore no Main Event Deal:censored:

[Lagerfan]

a phone call to parts department LR swop the Springs to for HD Springs at N/C

Don't all 90's in Aus come with HD springs anyway?

[Rickoz]

Don't all 90's in Aus come with HD springs anyway?
NFI

[debruiser]

NFI

Just as my opinion.... but I'd stay with stock suspension. NO HD upgrades. D90's are already bouncy and harsh ride compared to a 110. I loaded the back of my 90 full of pavers... made it ride really nice and it didnt' sag very much at all. Unless of course you are planning on running fully loaded ALL the time.

[Reads90]

Just as my opinion.... but I'd stay with stock suspension. NO HD upgrades. D90's are already bouncy and harsh ride compared to a 110. I loaded the back of my 90 full of pavers... made it ride really nice and it didnt' sag very much at all. Unless of course you are planning on running fully loaded ALL the time.

Yeah the 90's can feel like riding a kangaroo at times manly due to the short wheel base. The 110 are a lot better for not bouncing around.
My 90 is the same.

[Red90]

$470 EXTRA to replace alloys with steel wheels? That is beyond insane. New steel wheels do not cost that much by themselves.

I had a good laugh about the ABS crapola. The level of knowledge of these dealers is zero.

[Bush65]

$470 EXTRA to replace alloys with steel wheels? That is beyond insane. New steel wheels do not cost that much by themselves.

I had a good laugh about the ABS crapola. The level of knowledge of these dealers is zero.
No cost for the wheels. The extra $470 is for the upgrade to MTR tyres that are included when you choose the HD steel wheel option.

[KarlB]

According to the LRAu website, Goodyear Wrangler MT/R tyres with steel wheels is not an available option for the D90. Similarly, Heavy Duty Steel wheels are not an available option with any tyres.

[Bush65]

No cost for the wheels. The extra $470 is for the upgrade to MTR tyres that are included when you choose the HD steel wheel option.


According to the LRAu website, Goodyear Wrangler MT/R tyres with steel wheels is not an available option for the D90. Similarly, Heavy Duty Steel wheels are not an available option with any tyres.
According to the document that has formed the basis for discussion in this thread, see link in post #3, they were, but only with the heavy duty suspension package.

This is where the discussion about $470 extra comes from and that is what I pointed out.

Related to that, heavy duty suspension package, it comes with no anti-roll bars, I presume not required because of the stiffer springs, which has confused so many in this thread.

Whether that option is no longer the case, doesn't affect the historical point made in my post about the relevance of the $470 extra.

[NT5224]

Fellas

Just seen this thread around the Heavy Duty suspension on the D90. It is clearly a Typo in the options sheet. HD means the same suspension set up as you get in the 110 HD or the standard 130, that increases GVM to 3500kg. It also requires some chassis reinforcing. This is not even an option for the 90, let alone standard.

For a dealer to suggest that D90s were being shipped with HD suspension is strange. He/she should have spotted it as a typo if they know Land Rovers.

Cheers

Alan

[Lagerfan]

Our MY13 90 certainly came with HD *springs*. If what you are saying is correct Alan then sounds like a bit of salesmanship referring to this as "HD suspension" perhaps?

[NT5224]

Hi Lagerfan

I was referring to the options sheet posted by lackuwaxa on the first page of this thread, which indicates 'Heavy Duty Suspension' (as on a 130) -and including 'Wolf' Rims- would come as standard on a 90.

If you look down the bottom of the sheet its there -clear as day. Obviously an error, but seems to have lead to some confusion.

Cheers

Alan

[Bush65]

Hi Lagerfan

I was referring to the options sheet posted by lackuwaxa on the first page of this thread, which indicates 'Heavy Duty Suspension' (as on a 130) -and including 'Wolf' Rims- would come as standard on a 90.

If you look down the bottom of the sheet its there -clear as day. Obviously an error, but seems to have lead to some confusion.

Cheers

Alan
The following pic shows what Alan and others have referred to.

I have cut and pasted the pertinent parts of the document to remove some clutter.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=71089&stc=1&d=1389387550

[Rickoz]

There is no mention of weather or not the "HD Rims" are Tubeless or Tubed Rims:confused:
I think both Tyres are Tubeless:confused:
Anyone got a idea, I was out today saw a (Puma) 130 & looked at the HD rims on it & they said Tubed on them.