An Electric Defender.

[Aussie]

Never thought they do it


Drive - New Land Rover Defender | Electric Land Rover (http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-news/land-rovers-electric-defender-20130228-2f811.html)

[mike_ie]

80km range - will they be installing a line of power points along the Birdsville track too??

Nice concept, sure, and in a way you couldn't pick a better project vehicle for this than a 110 - drop an electric motor under the bonnet and a ****load of batteries in the back and project's done. But it's a huge step backward from the mission statement of Land Rover from 1948 until now, that is, to go anywhere, at any time. It'll be fine for the soccer moms who use it as a school runabout, but for anyone who wants to use a Defender to even a fraction of its potential, it's a pointless exercise.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Not sure I agree.

Firstly LR have said the 7 vehicles are only engineering development platforms.

Secondly, I am pretty sure there are many farmers or quarrymen who have the need for the 4WD capability on their property but would never travel for more than 80Km or more than 8 hours low range work around the property without returning to the farm house or site office. Not much drama plugging in the car for a top up when you have lunch. The same would be said for a trip into the local village or the next town and return.

An electric Defender would likely be ideal for underground mines.

Diana

[bob10]

I think it is fantastic LR are on the cutting edge of new technology, who knows what we will see in the future regarding battery development, and innovative ways of charging. It is the way of the future, peak oil is not that far away, and I applaud Land Rover's forward thinking,..... now, if only they could get a defender that didn't leak thru the door seals, Bob

[manic]

Its 2013 - why the hell are they bothering putting an electric engine to drive the same gearbox, trans, diff set up?! They could have done that in the 80's... Waste!

I'll get a new defender when each wheel has its own electric hub motor and can be powered by a multi-fuel generator giving it super long range.

[AndrewGJones]

there are only two motors that can deliver 100% of their rated torque from ZERO revs (on the first revolution that is) 1) Steam engine 2) electric Motor.

fill the roof with PV, install a stirling cycle generator (can run on anything -build a wood fire box and run it on fallen trees!) hermatically seal the electronics and cool them properly... it would be the ultimate bush vehicle.

would never run out of fuel, has an engine with only one moving component, almost completely quiet.

they could even have semi-redundant drive lines, one for the rear and one for the front with enough electrickery. or like manic said, in hub motors, you could has quadruple redundant drive capability. No getting stuck anywhere!

[bob10]

How about this, I was at the RAN aprentice school when Mr Vagg was getting this organised, Bob
Graeme Vagg

Click on the photos to view full size version!!

http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/bike.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/bike.jpg)http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/bike2.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/bike2.jpg)
1. I found a few photos of my Long Beach steam trike project and the VW steam car based on the fastback body. The trike was a 2 seater and could do 25 mph with a 50cc bump valve uniflow engine and gas fired Smith boiler.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/SpinningCupBurner.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/SpinningCupBurner.jpg)http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/VWPowerPack.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/VWPowerPack.jpg)http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/VWSteamEngine.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/VWSteamEngine.jpg)http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/VWTrialFit.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/VWTrialFit.jpg)
2. The VW conversion used a 4 cylinder Project Steam 77 and Doble type boiler with a spinning cup burner. I still have the power plant components but did not keep the car body as I wanted something better. It was a cheap platform that allowed a whole system to be tested at the time.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/BarrettMercury6SteamConversion.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/BarrettMercury6SteamConversion.jpg)
3. Barrett Mercury 6 steam conversion - 1976. Mounted on a VW bug floor pan with engine connected to the VW transaxle by chain drive. The monotube generator is a Doble type on its side with a pressure atomising burner. The same type of boiler has been used by both Vagg and Barrett is this configuration or vertical with downward firing with 3 different burners, namely pressure atomising, air atomising or spinning cup. My options for solid fuel firing are horizontal or vertcal upwards firing.
Design considerations for any location include: space available, weight distribution, support arrangements for the tube nest, flue arrangement, air blower requirements to get combustion products through the layout and eventually to atmosphere, mishap management (such as where does fuel drip if there is a misfire or flame out?), ash collection arrangements for solid fuel burners. From an operational point of view you can put a monotube boiler in any position you like and have space for. There would be no restriction on a pressure atomising burner. The spinning cup burners work equally well in horizontal or downward firing positions but would need a slight modification to the cup and fuel supply arrangement for vertically upwards firing. So a lot of design freedom all round.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/VaggBarrett2CylVWSteamConversion.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/VaggBarrett2CylVWSteamConversion.jpg)
4. Vagg Barrett 2 cylinder VW steam conversion. 1976. This engine replaced the Mercury 6 engine and reduced steam consumption by 50%.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/VaggBarrettOilBurner.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/VaggBarrettOilBurner.jpg)
5. Vagg Barrett pressure atomising burner. This was the original oil burner used for the 2 cylinder VW conversion road tests and had a fixed output of 1 US gal/hr that could maintain the test chassis at 30 mph around the back streets of Pomona Ca.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/BarrettTriumphSpitfireSteamCar.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/BarrettTriumphSpitfireSteamCar.jpg)
4. Barrett Triumph Spitfire Steamer. This was the second generation Barrett steam car and used an RJ Smith steam system and a 4 cylinder mercury outboard based engine with various valve gears developed by Barrett. Car was displayed at Los Angeles Car Show around 1975.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/DobleBoilerWaterwallTubes.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/DobleBoilerWaterwallTubes.jpg)
5. Doble Boiler showing water wall tubes around combustion chamber.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/BeslerGMSteamCar.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/BeslerGMSteamCar.jpg)
6. Here is another one I forgot and you should have more of this anyway. It is the under hood view of the Besler GM steam car power plant.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/VaggPS77SteamCarProject.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/VaggPS77SteamCarProject.jpg)http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/VaggBurnerExperiments.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/VaggBurnerExperiments.jpg)
7. I found two pages of colour copies of pictures sent to Project Steam 77 members back in 1976 that include some already posted but give a more complete picture.
The burner series shows an experimental burner that used two 5 gallon paint tins for an air casing and tested outputs from 1 to 6 us gal/hr. Test was done in Pete Barrett's back yard and gave the basis for a new burner for Barrett's VW steam project.
My car was built on an extended VW floor pan to take a Fraser Nash replica fibre glass body kit (available in USA at the time). The boiler had the new spinning cup burner developed as part of PS77. I was unable to get a sponsor to leave the car in USA in 1977 when I had to return to Australia so the chassis and wheels were sold and the steam plant and instrument panel returned to Australia where it was used in the VW fastback trials and is now set aside for a similar roadster project when I have time to devote to it. The purpose of the exercise was to show that it was possible to put together a modern steam car that looked good and was affordable, namely less than the cost of a new family sedan at the time.
8. While on a roll I will keep going. Here is what I found this afternoon.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/DobleE14withGraemeandBarney.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/DobleE14withGraemeandBarney.jpg)
8.1 My greatest moment in steam was meeting Barney Becker at his home in San Fransicso in 1976 and having a drive in his beautiful Doble E14.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/RoyRennerwithDobleE14.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/RoyRennerwithDobleE14.jpg)
8.2. Roy Renner arranged the visit and is shown here beside the car. Roy encouraged me to do something special in steam development and this led to Project Steam 77 being born.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/UnderthehoodofDobleE14.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/UnderthehoodofDobleE14.jpg)
8.3. Under the hood of Doble E14.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/BeslerGMSteamCarEngineBay.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/BeslerGMSteamCarEngineBay.jpg)
8.4. The engine compartment of the Besler GM steam car.

9. Here are two pictures relating to my first steam car project that ran from 1962 to 1968.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/VaggV4UniflowPoppetValveSteamCarEngine.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/VaggV4UniflowPoppetValveSteamCarEngine.jpg)
9.1 Original Vagg V4 Uniflow Expansion single acting engine with inlet poppet valves. Bore and stroke were 2.25" and 2". Engine was designed for direct drive to a fixed differential and had a variable cut-off cam shaft with 4 forward positions, neutral and reverse. The engine was designed and built during spare time while undertaking my naval engineering training at the Royal Naval Engineering College, Manadon, at Plymouth, Devon, UK. Various parts had to wait until I learnt how to make them - such as pattern making, iron and aluminium castings, machining and heat treatment etc. One challenge for the instructors was the method of making a heat treated variable cut off cam shaft. The instructor said the item I described couldn't be made. My response was that ity must be possible as the Williams engine had a camshaft that fitted the performance requirement. I did not know until some 40 years later that the Williams camshaft was fabricated with separate cams fitted so was not made in one piece like mine. So with blind faith we made a one piece unit.
My training finished late 1965 and the engine and boiler parts were shipped back to Australia for completion in 1966 when they were fitted to a new chassis (a Triumph Herald for local insurance compliance requirements) for testing. As the testing program commenced, two developments in the USA made the engine obsolete. First the infinite variable rotary valve design by Richard Smith gave very precise control of engine power at any speed and was virtually silent, Second the use of soluble oil in steam allowed sump lub oil to be eliminated from the system. The engine had automobile shell bearings so was not suitable for soluble oil lubrication so I quickly designed and built a slightly larger engine with a roller crankshaft and rotary inlet valve within about 2 months in about 80 hours of actual working time.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/OriginalVaggSteamCarProjectVehicle.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/OriginalVaggSteamCarProjectVehicle.jpg)
9.2 The car body selected for the Vagg Steam Car in 1962 was the UK built Falcon Caribbean fibreglass kit made for pre-war Ford 8 and 10 chassis. It was light, attractive and had a suitable shape to accomodate the steam plant in normal space allocated for a petrol engine and drive train. An operational kit car was purchased in 1962 and a second chassis with independent front and rear suspension was purchased for. This had to be rebuilt to fit inside the body shell. The car was registered for road use in UK and Australia and was driven with various petrol engines while waiting for the steam plant. Steam car development work ceased in 1968 when the body shell roof was wrecked in a wind storm at a painter's workshop. The loose body was on a trailer and the wind blew it off and it landed upside down. A commercial developer for the steam plant had been found but expected applications were only for boats and industrial equipment. A second developer, wanting a steam engine for a new sports car project, offered me one of his cars as a substitute for mine. Commercial developments then commenced. Steam club activity did not start again until late 1974 when I had a Navy posting to Long Beach Naval Shipyard for 2 1/2 years. Long term steam contacts Richard J Smith and Peter Barrett were only 20 minutes or one hour away and the rest is history.
Karl, we did know about you but you had moved elsewhere so we did not meet. Just think what we might have done if you had been involved as well.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/VaggV4RotaryValveSteamEngine.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/VaggV4RotaryValveSteamEngine.jpg)
9. Here is a clear picture of one of my V4 rotary inlet valve, uniflow exhaust engines. It is similar to the one in USA now owned by SACA President, Tom Kimmel. These engines have a 3" bore and 2" stroke and a roller bearing crankshaft lubricated by soluble oil in the steam. The RJ Smith type rotary valve was developed separately by Graeme Vagg from a sample single cylinder valve made by Bill Jones, Sydney, Australia following consultion with Richard J Smith. The valve had infinite variable cut off from zero to 80%, both forward and reverse. A spectacular feature of the engine was running it at 4,500 rpm on no load and throwing it into reverse in about one second and repeating the exercise several times in quick succession.
10. The prototype engine above was used to road test the first Vagg steam car chassis at the RAN apprentices school at HMAS Nirimba, Quakers Hill, NSW, Australia in 1968."[ Yep saw it happen , Bob] " This event is still a great bar room topic at Navy engineering reunions. A sponsorship to develop the design for commercial (non vehicle) applications followed. Before this orders for several engines had been received and agreed for production by the sponsor. By 1976, direct drive engines were out of favour and simpler fixed valve engines running at higher steam conditions with a transmission, were giving better results on the road. There have not been enough new steam engines in cars to settle the debate on this topic but the comparisons found in the Barrett car that used both types of engine in the same chassis were light years apart.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/DobleE14ExhaustTurbineCondenserFan.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/DobleE14ExhaustTurbineCondenserFan.jpg)
11. Doble E14 Exhaust Turbine Condenser Fan. The fan shroud can be seen between the boiler and condenser.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/WilliamsSteamRoadster1961.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/WilliamsSteamRoadster1961.jpg)
12. Williams Steam Roadster 1961. This attractive picture was well circulated in 1961 by Light Steam Power in a brochure and on the magazine cover and was the inspiration for me to build a modern steam car. My interest commenced some 6 years earlier when I read an article in a motoring magazine about a car that pulled up to a service station without noise, picked up some waste sump oil for free fuel, topped up the water tank and drove quickly off. Way to go I thought. Sounds like the reporter spotted a Stanley Steamer. Anyway the Williams steam engine was far too expensive for me at the time so I bought a stack of plans from Light Steam Power and started to build my own system during my engineering course. By 1966 I had a system a bit like the Williams one for 1/10 the cost.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/BarrettMercurySteamConversion.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/BarrettMercurySteamConversion.jpg)
13. Barrett Mercury Steam Conversion. This engine was used in the Spitfire project and used twin rotary inlet valves and uniflow exhaust.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/BarrettTriumphSpitfireSteamConversionwithMercuryEn gine.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/BarrettTriumphSpitfireSteamConversionwithMercuryEn gine.jpg)
14. Mercury Steam Conversion fitted in the trunk of the Barrett Steam Triumph Spitfire. This car had an independent rear suspension with a fixed differential so mating a steam engine to it was quite easy. Valve and steam system development was an on going process involving extensive correspondence with Graeme Vagg in Sydney, Australia commencing in about 1966 when both started building Smith steam systems and needed to develop designs further.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/BarrettSteamSpitfirewithSmithtypeBoiler.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/BarrettSteamSpitfirewithSmithtypeBoiler.jpg)
15. Barrett Steam Triumph Spitfire with front mounted R J Smith type monotube steam generator made by Peter Barrett. This car was used on the road until 1975 when it was replaced with a VW based vehicle that led to the current steam sports car being built.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/BarrettSteamBicycle.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/BarrettSteamBicycle.jpg)
16. Barrett Steam Bicycle with Smith type flash steam plant. Single cylinder engine had a bump inlet valve and uniflow exhaust. I think rider is David Barrett.
http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/BarrettSteamBicyclePowerPlant.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/BarrettSteamBicyclePowerPlant.jpg)
17. Close up view of Barrett Steam Bicycle power plant. These were quite popular in the early 1970s and a number were built. I used a similar plant in the steam trike project. http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/BarrettSteamVWPowerPlant.jpg (http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/images/BarrettSteamVWPowerPlant.jpg)
18. Barrett Steam VW Power Plant. The main components, namely the 2 cylinder engine, monotube boiler with spinning cup burner, lube oil centrifuge, and throttle valve are clearly shown. The engine uses poppet inlet and exhaust valves and was developed from the original Project Steam 77 design that also only used 2 cylinders in this car. The whole power plant has been progressively upgraded over time to improve component reliability.

[ramblingboy42]

why do they want to improve the defenders on road driving? It will only be to detriment of its off road capability. If you dont like driving a defender on the bitumen, dont buy one!

[AndrewGJones]

Awesome stuff, Bob. I've always loved those small steam engines, also anything to do with stirling cycle.

that Doble E14 would have to be the best looking road car ever. Fully bloody stop! And with a chopped roof! that is sheer style.

It is encouraging to read that LR is experimenting with the Defender platform, gives some hope that is will survive in some guise.

[PAT303]

Its 2013 - why the hell are they bothering putting an electric engine to drive the same gearbox, trans, diff set up?! They could have done that in the 80's... Waste!

I'll get a new defender when each wheel has its own electric hub motor and can be powered by a multi-fuel generator giving it super long range.

Thats not only achievable but a viable option,the weight saving in drivetrain componants not to mention having four self driven wheels effectively making it a true 4wd machine would more than compensate for a battery pack and generator under the floor. Pat

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I think it is fantastic LR are on the cutting edge of new technology, ...
<snip>
..., and I applaud Land Rover's forward thinking,..... now, if only they could get a defender that didn't leak thru the door seals, BobWe may be able to put rovers on the Moon and Mars but having Defenders that don't have leaky door seals is a bridge too far! :D

Diana

[Lotz-A-Landies]

why do they want to improve the defenders on road driving? It will only be to detriment of its off road capability. If you dont like driving a defender on the bitumen, dont buy one!I love Defenders but what is the proportion of your off road Vs your on road driving.

I also have a D4 and have been on tracks with a Defender 110 xtreme (Maxi-drive diff) slipping and sliding are negotiated by my stock standard D4 SDV6 eDiff with ease as if it were on the bitumen.

If the Defender replacement can be both worthy of the Defender heritage and as able as the D4 I think we'll all be pleased.

[mike_ie]

Not sure I agree.

Firstly LR have said the 7 vehicles are only engineering development platforms.

Yep, but according to the article, "the seven cars are part of the company’s long-term plans for hybrid and electrification" so while they might not be production models, it's certainly the direction in which the vehicle is going.


Secondly, I am pretty sure there are many farmers or quarrymen who have the need for the 4WD capability on their property but would never travel for more than 80Km or more than 8 hours low range work around the property without returning to the farm house or site office. Not much drama plugging in the car for a top up when you have lunch. The same would be said for a trip into the local village or the next town and return.

Which is why I said it'll suit the soccer moms who need a Defender because there's leaves on the road between home, and the kids private school. :angel: There are situations, sure, where you could use an electric Defender, sure, and not be impacted too much, but that's a small percentage of situations that the Defender is supposed to perform in. Regarding mines, etc, there are far more suitable (and usually custom) vehicles than a Defender, electric or otherwise.

Take the statement by Land Rover's global PR manager, Dave Roynon, when he talks about the next generation Defender:

"The capability is almost a given," he says. "It has to be as capable, it has to be as robust, it has to go everywhere the existing Defender goes, it has to be as practical as the existing Defender."

I'm curious as to how they are going to manage that with an electric vehicle. Electronic engine management is a nightmare for a lot of people, never mind an entire electric vehicle. It also completely removes the ability of a capable driver to get out of tricky situations - try carrying a jerry can of electrickery on a long range trip.

I don't believe that electric vehicles are the way to go in general, but that's another story. But hybrid/alternative energy vehicles certainly do have their place in this world, at the moment in well populated areas where it's easy to refuel or recharge. But for the most part, I don't see a Defender falling under that umbrella.

[pushrod]

just came across this article and video about LR electric Defender project..

see here :

Drive - New Land Rover Defender | Electric Land Rover (http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/land-rovers-electric-defender-20130228-2f811.html)

[mike_ie]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/showthread.php?p=1866681#post1866681

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Yep, leccy Defer. 80 of them to be exact.


I think it has the potential to be excellent. All that low down instant torque, constant power band etc etc. they just need to get the hard bit sorted... That is battery longevity, weight and charge rate sorted. Which I guess is where the R&D comes in.

I note that LR are not going to produce these and that they are for there R&D dept.

J

Sent using Forum Runner

[isuzutoo-eh]

Hub mounted traction motors aren't necessarily as good as it seems. Assuming each of those 4 motors is mechanically independant of the others, as wheels slip, the load is taken by the other motors. It'd be like not having the centre diff open but with traction control or LSDs. A mechanical link between all four hubs will still give better traction than four independant traction motors.
Hub motors are likely to each be smaller than a single transfer or gearbox mounted motor, so when only one wheel has traction it might not have enough oomph to turn that one wheel with the whole vehicle's adhesive weight on it. But one big motor driving all four through a transfer case will have the same torque whether one or all four wheels have traction.

A small efficient turbo diesel under the bonnet driving a big alternator locomotive style into a battery bank distributed around the vehicle, and a transfer case mounted motor would be my set-up of choice :)

[SLOWBOAT]

And by the time these are here they will have the stop/start technology fitted as standard also just like the new RR.
Some of the benefits of the electric powered vehicles are great but it is always about RANGE as this is the thing that stops them all. If they ever sort this out no one will get a choice as every new vehicle will be powered this way to stop noise and air pollution in cities. JMHO.

[mike_ie]

If they ever sort this out no one will get a choice as every new vehicle will be powered this way to stop noise and air pollution in cities. JMHO.

I've been to the province in China, where they manufacture the batteries used in the Prius. You can stand on a hill and not see a single plant or animal around the factory as far as the eye can see, because of all of the poisonous elements that have leeched into the soil and water table. And considering that many cities have rolling blackouts in summer months when everyone turns on their air conditioning, there's going to be a huge increase in fuel burning power stations that will be required to power all of the homes that plug in a vehicle every night, all year round. We're not reducing air pollution, just moving it around a bit, is all.

Electric cars are a fallacy at the moment, and this is an flag waving exercise by Land Rover to shout out "Look at us! We're going green things too!!!". Hydrogen, on the other hand..... :)

[bee utey]

..... Hydrogen, on the other hand..... :)
NOOOOOOOOO! Find me a source of pollution free Hydrogen first. :eek:

[Unther]

Land Rover are developing 7 prototypes of an electric Defender.
Check out the article at Wired:
Land Rover Electrifies the Classic Defender | Autopia | Wired.com (http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/02/land-rover-defender-electric/)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Not sure I agree.

Firstly LR have said the 7 vehicles are only engineering development platforms.Yep, but according to the article, "
<snip>
I don't believe that electric vehicles are the way to go in general, but that's another story. But hybrid/alternative energy vehicles certainly do have their place in this world, at the moment in well populated areas where it's easy to refuel or recharge. But for the most part, I don't see a Defender falling under that umbrella.
...
An electric Defender would likely be ideal for underground mines.

DianaMike

What would you say now with the change of classification of diesel fumes to be a WHO Class 1 carcinogen? Dangerous diesel health effects in mines (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/backgroundbriefing/dangerous-diesel/4545656) Electric Vehicles must have a place in underground situations where any exhaust emissions are a danger to underground workers.

Diana

[AndrewGJones]

over population is another factor altogether, which is being driven by the least intelligent forces of the human psyche. It is on the other end of the spectrum to the intelligence driving electric vehicle development.

electric vehicles will not save the world, because the problem is not the technology in our hands, but rather the 2 bit instinctual 'tech' in our 'hearts'

Regardless of whether the murky depths of human instinctual blindness get sorted out, electric vehicles remain damn cool and if the same level of smarts was brought to bear on the 'untouchable' and highly regarded instincts, we would not have the duality of fossil fuel power stations charging up 'green' cars.

hydrogen tech is very cool too, infact the whole thermodynamic/ chemical cycle of water has only been exploited in very basic ways so far.

You can't fuel cars with water alone, but you can use it to make them fantastically efficient.

[MR LR]

Jaguar have a hydrogen concept car
Why not make a hydrogen Land Rover?! That is the real way of the future
Battery power is crap!!

[Lotz-A-Landies]

<snip>we would not have the duality of fossil fuel power stations charging up 'green' cars.

hydrogen tech is very cool too, infact the whole thermodynamic/ chemical cycle of water has only been exploited in very basic ways so far.

You can't fuel cars with water alone, but you can use it to make them fantastically efficient.However we can have electric vehicles charged by wind, solar, geothermal or wave energy without the risk of taking flammable/explosive gasses into confined spaces.

For our global needs we need a variety of solutions, fuel cell technology for hydrogen powered engines may be one but electric vehicles powered by green energy must be another.

[AndrewGJones]

so far that has been the the all or nothing 'solution', the way forward to me is to go ultra hybrid and use existing tech to scavenge the entire thermodynamic/chemical cycle of water/hydrogen.

[AndrewGJones]

of course it would take a fair bit of plumbing, so i think LR would manage to have it leak continually...:p

[AndrewGJones]

BMW where heading in the right direction with their steam scavenger..

BMW unveils the turbosteamer concept (http://www.gizmag.com/go/4936/)

[mike_ie]

Mike

What would you say now with the change of classification of diesel fumes to be a WHO Class 1 carcinogen? Dangerous diesel health effects in mines (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/backgroundbriefing/dangerous-diesel/4545656) Electric Vehicles must have a place in underground situations where any exhaust emissions are a danger to underground workers.

Diana

I would say that we have very different definitions of the term "in general" then. Mining is a very specialised environment for a vehicle if you take the percentage of all vehicles on the planet that operate in an underground mining environment. We're talking somewhere in the range of 0.00001% I would imagine. Not exactly the benchmark by which we should be measuring what the best all round source of energy for a vehicle should be.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

80km range - will they be installing a line of power points along the Birdsville track too??
...<snip>Mike

What I am arguing is your initial comment about the 80KM range, and the discounting of the concept off hand. There are numerous uses for vehicles like Defenders where various power plants are valid.

What I would like to see is the option for the Defender buyer to make the purchase option that suits their own personal or industry's need. Diesel is not the ideal power choice of people in the USA.
Likewise petrol is too expensive to be a viable choice for the UK and Europe.
There is a case for hybrid power and also for fuel cell hydrogen or even steam.
100% electric remains an option in some limited situations and should not so easily be denigrated.After all Land Rover was only ever designed as a stop gap post war measure that almost by accident developed into what it has become.

[mike_ie]

I really wish you would quote entire statements, rather than the snippets of sentences that that suit your argument.


I don't believe that electric vehicles are the way to go in general, but that's another story. But hybrid/alternative energy vehicles certainly do have their place in this world, at the moment in well populated areas where it's easy to refuel or recharge. But for the most part, I don't see a Defender falling under that umbrella.

That's not discounting the concept at all, but rather stating the reality of the situation. Why I don't believe that electric cars are the way to go is simple. 90.36% of Australia's electricity is still produced from fossil fuels, and that's in a country where there is an abundance of solar electricity second only to the Sahara desert. Europe and the USA is going to fare even worse. So your electric car is still burning fossil fuels and contributing to global warming, just at the power station rather than out the exhaust pipe. On top of that, studies have shown that if you take an electric car's life cycle as a whole, rather than just time on the road, electric cars have a higher eco-toxicity and greenhouse impact than conventional cars, up to twice as much.


Comparative Environmental Life Cycle Assessment of Conventional and Electric Vehicles (http://www.google.com.au/url'sa=t&rct=j&q=comparative%20environmental%20life%20cycle%20ass essment%20of%20conventional%20and%20electric%20veh icles&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CEIQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonlinelibrary.wiley.com%2Fdoi%2F1 0.1111%2Fj.1530-9290.2012.00532.x%2Fpdf&ei=P74wUf2zDunMmgWMt4DoCw&usg=AFQjCNHnoKJSfad3RrCzPViVKluanEykIQ&bvm=bv.43148975,d.dGY)

[frantic]

Mike

What I am arguing is your initial comment about the 80KM range, and the discounting of the concept off hand. There are numerous uses for vehicles like Defenders where various power plants are valid.

What I would like to see is the option for the Defender buyer to make the purchase option that suits their own personal or industry's need. Diesel is not the ideal power choice of people in the USA.
Likewise petrol is too expensive to be a viable choice for the UK and Europe.
There is a case for hybrid power and also for fuel cell hydrogen or even steam.
100% electric remains an option in some limited situations and should not so easily be denigrated.After all Land Rover was only ever designed as a stop gap post war measure that almost by accident developed into what it has become.
E.u and U.S use of diesel v petrol comes down to tax or lack of on those fuels. Im sure many more europeans would love to be driving V8 petrol powered vehicles of a bigger size but the price being more than double than americans pay has resulted in a majority of diesels and what we call a small car or the yanks call a compact being called a "family car" in europe.
And electric/hybrid is a VERY limited option with a far shorter life than your average car let alone a defender. Over its whole life cycle it actually causes more environmental impact than a similar sized petrol or diesel car.

[Carnut1100]

Ok....couple of comments here.

Firstly I hear often that electric cars charged by fossil fuel plants are simply moving the pollution.......this is not quite true.
The electric vehicle is far more energy efficient than internal combustion and the fossil fuelled plants are big high efficiency units running at peak efficiency instead of small units runnin up and down usually in an inefficient range.
Charging electric via fossil fuel DOES reduce the energy and emissions as well as moving them out of cities etc where they affect more people.
Also not all energy is fossil fuelled and there are myriad ways of topping up with clean power.

Secondly, while hub motors would be fantastic, and with a decent controller they would give all the benefits of traction control and more, I think any future for an electric Defender lies in bein an optional power train alongside conventional ones.
Going for a single larger motor mounted directly to the transfer would greatly simplify this.
Not all people want or could use an electric Deefer....but there are LOADS of places they would be fantastic!
Mines are a prime example, how many diesel Landcruisers are being used there now?
Farmers as mentioned earlier.
Certain specialist vehicles such as SES accident rescue vehicles...operating from a local base with limited distances.
Poser commuters of course.
Fishermen, towing a boat from base to ramp and back they rarely clock up large mileages.
First response fire tenders in large factories etc.
Weekend offroaders.

With some development the range could easily be 150 not 80...

Then there is the hybrid option, 50-60km range and a small diesel genset.
That could go anywhere.
Silent approach to your hunting grounds?
Bird watching, safari, wildlife tour?
Anything in fact that a pure electric can do with a long range option.


The other point I'd like to make is hydrogen.......nearly all of the world's hydrogen is made by catalytic cracking of natural gas....releasing huge amounts of CO2.....so reducing carbon em missions by using hydrogen is ridiculous in the extreme at the moment.

Batteries....experience with current electric vehicles has shown the batteries have a longer life than previously predicted.
As for the province in China....this can be done without poisoning a whole area...but then we wouldn't have the batteries do cheap. So we just get china to poison a chunk of itself and nobody cares.
The alternative is more expensive batteries to meet the costs of doing it cleanly.

[frantic]

Unfortunately Carr nut we all live on the same planet so the excess pollution in china will affect us all eventually. E.g did you know it's estimated 80%of the mercury fallout in the u.s was emitted from plants in china. But don't you worry about that you obviously have your own air supply;)
Further the hybrid will become a second hand orphan .In 7-15years, my "normal " small car may need a new engine at $2-4k ( that uses the same or less fuel than the neighbour trendy hybrid) whereas the hybrid will need new batteries, maybe a new engine, a new electric motor or MOTORS and a specialist mechanic/auto electrician to rebuild the thing so the 2 +motors can integrate. This will mean a 12 year old golf or corrolla mazda3 that was $10,000 less than a hybrid will be worth more as there is less to go wrong. This will also lead to a shorter life overall as who is going to buy a second hand car whose costs of parts to keep it running are 2-3 times that of similar sized/ litres per km better driving opposition?
Capping a Hot Spot (http://www.governing.com/topics/energy-env/Capping-Hot-Spot.html)

[Carnut1100]

I agree with you on the pollution...I think we SHOULD be paying more for our batteries (including the ones in our laptops and phones and everything you can think of now...) so that they are made in a safer manner.
The sad fact though is that the majority of people just don't care if a chunk if China is blitzed so long as their new phone is ten dollars cheaper...
The point I was making is that it is possible to produce those batteries without the industrial scale pollution....it's just a lot more expensive to do it.

As for the secondhand cars needing major work.......the mechanics of an electric are very simple, and an overhaul on an electric motor is far cheaper than an internal combustion one.
The batteries will indeed need replacement at some point, although costs are coming down in that field (although that could change if China gets some pollution regs one day...) and batteries in existing vehicles are lasting longer than predicted.
The thing that will trouble many of these cars is the controller if spares are not supported.
However.......not many new vehicle buyers worry about something that will happen at the end of the design life of thr vehicle and certainly well after they have sold it, especially the mine and other operators who will turn them over regularly.

Like I said, they would be a niche vehicle but damn good in that niche.

[frantic]

I agree with you on the pollution front but the point your missing is not just total life costs but depreciation.
As I said once second hand car buyers get scared by the extra costs of a hybrid that is not covered by factory warranty they will be harder to sell and their trade in price will drop . So the new car buyer will get burnt by several thousand when their co-worker on the same package gets $4-5 k extra trading in their golf GTD which cost the same as their Prius.
The other thing people are ignoring is the rare earth materials used for the battery packs are in very short supply and at the rate of growth predicted could be depleted before oil:o

[AndrewGJones]

Existing tech can get efficiencies up around the 70% mark, (most large power stations are running at 60% plus efficiency)

it's not inconceivable to get vehicles up around the 50% plus efficiently mark (small turbine with a Stirling stage after that and electrolysis scavenger for the hot water left over)

compared to the weight of a battery bank (or the immensely expensive hydrogen storage problems), a system using conventional tech is feasible, and it doesn't need any special materials, just a company prepared to put up the money.

The great things about water is it is a fantastic thermal storage medium, breaks down to the most flammable elements we know of, it's explosive when it turns to a gas and is very cheap/available. Paired up with a multi fuel turbine and multi fuel reheat stirling stage, a system of thermostats and tanks could be made to put water through it's entire thermo/chemical cycle, not unlike we currently do in power stations (except for the electrolysis bit.)

the electrolysis stage takes advantage of the cooling water being hot, which means it takes less energy to break the atomic bonds and liberate the otherwise wasted heat. it may only gain a percent or two, but that is the point; scavenging as much as possible. It may not gain anything except to keep the first stages in the 'zone' they work best at.

would love to have the time and machinery to build a test rig, it's been a daydream of mine for about 7 years.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

E.u and U.S use of diesel v petrol comes down to tax or lack of on those fuels. Im sure many more europeans would love to be driving V8 petrol powered vehicles of a bigger size but the price being more than double than americans pay has resulted in a majority of diesels and what we call a small car or the yanks call a compact being called a "family car" in europe.
And electric/hybrid is a VERY limited option with a far shorter life than your average car let alone a defender. Over its whole life cycle it actually causes more environmental impact than a similar sized petrol or diesel car.But the Tax and emission Regs/GWP is exactly why we are discussing alternative power sources.

If it were not for those, the manufacturers would be using the cheapest fuel source available and that would be petrol or diesel. It is only because of tax costs we are even having the discussion, because without that impetus automotive manufacturers wouldn't care less about what, rightly or wrongly, has always been considered the lunatic fringe developing alternative power sources.

[AndrewGJones]

internal combustion and using cars in general was once the lunatic fringe, rightly or wrongly!

without the taxes the oil reserves would already be gone. Reserves are probably well past peak oil now anyway regardless.

another way of looking at efficiently is put it into dollars. for every $100 worth of diesel, $60 bucks is being lost in the cooling and exhaust.

Sounds like madness to me.