Fitting upgraded Axles, CVs and converting to oil lubed hubs

[mools]

Hi all,

I recently got some upgraded Ashcroft goodies; CV's, Half shafts (axels) and drive flanges and want to fit them to my 2006 110. While I'm at it I want to go to oil lubed hubs too.

I consider myself to be reasonably practical but I've had a look around this topic for a short while but can't quite get the concise info. I need. Lots of useful stuff out there but I want to know exactly what I'm in for before I strip down a corner to find I don't have what I need to complete the job. Once-upon-a-time I may have been tempted to give this job to someone else but I think I really should be able to strip and build the hubs myself I'm just laking the confidence on a couple of items and don't want to be doing this again and again - once and properly. In return for good advise from the forum I'll write it up, with pictures, in to a step by step article for anyone else in the future.

The diagrams below are from the RAVE manual for a 300 tdi, I couldn't find any that where more specific but as far as I can tell they should be nearly correct, please point out if I'm wrong about this. So here are my questions....

Firstly for the rear....

59397

It appears there are just two seals in there. So...

1) Aa far as I can tell outer hub / axle shaft seal (8 in the diagram above) is removed and not replaced to allow oil to migrate from the diff housing is this correct? If not then what is done here?

2) What happens to the inner hub seal (7 above). Is it
a) left alone,
b) upgraded to a higher spec oil seal (if so part no.?) or
c) Just pulled out and disposed of.

3) Have I overlooked anything?

Now for the front:

59396

4) Firstly can you convert later style (no swivel housing drain plus) type assemblies to be oil fed? Looking at the diagram (below) I'm a little sceptical that this can be fed adequately from the diff housing, however, if it can then there are 3 seals...

5) Axel shaft seal (8 in the above diagram) just junk and not replace? or what? Ashcroft do a larger seal (refered to as 'the oil seal fitted to the swivel ball' on their web site) for the larger shaft. But if going for oil lubed hubs is this seal just dispensed with anyway?

6) The CV shaft seal (No. 23 above) located in the stub axel. Stay, go or upgraded?

7) Part 7 above, inner and outer hub seals what happens with these? Junked or upgraded? If upgraded whats the part no.?

an additional lubrication question....

8) What is the best way to pack the CV and bearings if going to oil fed? Do they require pre packing with grease? and if so do you need to re pack them periodically?

Now, I think that's all I need to know. So if you can help out with some concise and knowledgeable answers I'd be most appreciative.

Thank very much,

Ian.

Oh, and if the diagrams are too small just double click to open a larger one.

[Dougal]

Pull the seals in the stub axles to let pull through and when you are done put a big zip tie around the rubber outer cap. Otherwise it's very difficult to stop them losing oil.

I don't grease the bearings or cv. I let the oil do it's job. Any grease will just turn to sludge in the oil.

[steveG]

Hi all,

I recently got some upgraded Ashcroft goodies; CV's, Half shafts (axels) and drive flanges and want to fit them to my 2006 110. While I'm at it I want to go to oil lubed hubs too.

I consider myself to be reasonably practical but I've had a look around this topic for a short while but can't quite get the concise info. I need. Lots of useful stuff out there but I want to know exactly what I'm in for before I strip down a corner to find I don't have what I need to complete the job. Once-upon-a-time I may have been tempted to give this job to someone else but I think I really should be able to strip and build the hubs myself I'm just laking the confidence on a couple of items and don't want to be doing this again and again - once and properly. In return for good advise from the forum I'll write it up, with pictures, in to a step by step article for anyone else in the future.

The diagrams below are from the RAVE manual for a 300 tdi, I couldn't find any that where more specific but as far as I can tell they should be nearly correct, please point out if I'm wrong about this. So here are my questions....

Firstly for the rear....

It appears there are just two seals in there. So...

1) Aa far as I can tell outer hub / axle shaft seal (8 in the diagram above) is removed and not replaced to allow oil to migrate from the diff housing is this correct? If not then what is done here?
Correct - removed

2) What happens to the inner hub seal (7 above). Is it
a) left alone,
b) upgraded to a higher spec oil seal (if so part no.?) or
c) Just pulled out and disposed of.
Upgraded to RTC3511 (unless there's an even better one that I'm not aware of

3) Have I overlooked anything?

Now for the front:

4) Firstly can you convert later style (no swivel housing drain plus) type assemblies to be oil fed? Looking at the diagram (below) I'm a little sceptical that this can be fed adequately from the diff housing, however, if it can then there are 3 seals...
Yes

5) Axel shaft seal (8 in the above diagram) just junk and not replace? or what? Ashcroft do a larger seal (refered to as 'the oil seal fitted to the swivel ball' on their web site) for the larger shaft. But if going for oil lubed hubs is this seal just dispensed with anyway?
You have a choice here. If you remove it you have one compartment across the entire axle. If you leave it in your swivels and wheel bearings are separate from the diff housing itself. I run the latter option
6) The CV shaft seal (No. 23 above) located in the stub axel. Stay, go or upgraded?
Removed to allow oil to get to the wheel bearings
7) Part 7 above, inner and outer hub seals what happens with these? Junked or upgraded? If upgraded whats the part no.?
Upgraded to RTC3511 same as the back
an additional lubrication question....

8) What is the best way to pack the CV and bearings if going to oil fed? Do they require pre packing with grease? and if so do you need to re pack them periodically?
I pre-pack wheel bearings on initial fitment. No requirement to repack unless you have removed/cleaned them for some reason, in which case I treat them as new and repack. When I fitted my upgraded CV's from Rovertracks, Keith advised me to do an initial packing with CV grease. Not sure if Ashcrofts recommend similar
Now, I think that's all I need to know. So if you can help out with some concise and knowledgeable answers I'd be most appreciative.

Thank very much,

Ian.

Oh, and if the diagrams are too small just double click to open a larger one.

Answers in red above.

You don't want to fill the swivel completely with oil. There should be an area visible on fhe forward side of the swivel casting where the fill plug went in earlier models. I used a bamboo skewer as a dipstick to fill with oil to slightly above that level. Re-check in a week or so.

Dougal's zip-tie suggestion above isn't applicable if you're running the screw on cap style upgraded flanges.

Steve

[Drover]

Hey Ian,

I did this same up grade 3 years ago. I have had no problems what so ever. It is nice knowing that some very weak points and parts are now bullet proof.

Oil feed bearing seem to be the way to go, having the additional benefit of lubricating the drive flanges.

Just need the new Ashcroft hybrid P38 centre now and job done :)

Cheers
Grant

[Dougal]

Dougal's zip-tie suggestion above isn't applicable if you're running the screw on cap style upgraded flanges.

Steve

Um yeah. Good point.:angel:

[Aaron]

It is nice knowing that some very weak points and parts are now bullet proof.



Can you clarify what you mean by this?

[Dougal]

Another point.

Check the seal surface on your stub axles carefully. I had one which would keep weeping oil. I finally pulled it out to polish some old seal grooves out on the lathe and found it wasn't completely concentric.

I took a small cut to clean it up and it's been oil tight ever since. Makes me wonder wehther the grooves (which were likely not where the seal was running anyway) were the issue or the eccentric stub over-working the seal.

[Drover]

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

Sure,

CV joints - standard item are just that, they will be fine but if you want to fit bigger tyres or if you lift a tyre under throttle and drop it down, particulary while you have the steering on full lock, then problems are likely.

Ashcroft CV are as strong as they get, alloy steel and brilliant engerneering and machining.

Oil Feed Bearings and oil lubed drive flanges.
Standard the wheel bearing are just greased and the drive Ganges are not lubed at all. Converting to oil feed solves this issue. Prolongs wheel bearing life and prevents the drive flanges chewing them selves out.

Half Shaft (axels )
standards are fine but for all the same reasons as the CV's up graded alloy steel units are so much better.

I like these upgrades just because my D'fer is set up for long range remote touring. Mostly it is just my wife and I. I don't want to have any problem while we're away and god knows how many K's from help.

It's all about bullet proofing......simple

(And as soon as the Ashcroft hybrid P38 centre is available I will fitting that as well)

[mools]

Firstly, thanks SteveG - just what I was after.

With reference to the RTC3511, reading around I have heard mention of part no FRC8221 (now superseded by FTC4785) a tripple lipped seal, apparently interchangeable with the double lipped RTC3511. Anyone know more about this? True or BS?

Secondly,

Grover, three questions if I may:

When you did this were you supplied with new front axel shaft seals (swivel housing to diff casing) to match the larger half shafts? I haven't got any with the stuff I bought.

What about the rear outer shaft seal? If retained is that kept original? Or would it require a new larger seal? I presume the upgraded rear shaft is thicker than the original (although I don't know this) so a replacement one is required.

And, did you find the end float had changed much with the new CV and halfshafts? Did it require adjustment of the shims between the flange and cir clip on the front? And since the originals are one piece flange and shaft - what about the rear? I'm wondering if I should try to acquire some shims just in case, and perhaps how many, or just hope for the best. If you know the part No. that'd be helpful.

So.....

at the moment I'm toying with the idea of keeping all of the seals and just upgrading the outer seals to higher spec (RTC3511 / FTC4785 type) and tapping a fill and drain hole in each of the HD flanges. I've measured them up and it looks like theres plenty of meat on them to accommodate a couple of 5 - 7 mm holes. This way I have drainable oil lubed hubs, greased CV's / swivels (not drainable due to no drain plug), and (of course, hopefully?) oil in the diff. The main advantage to this being a reduced chance of cross contamination between these areas if / when seals fail and allow them to be checked for contamination independently. It dawned on me that without a drain plug in the swivel housing it'll always be a strip down job to replace the lube in there as you can never drain the bottom of the swivel housing through the hub or the diff. If it had a drain I'd use oil in the swivels (not tap the hubs) and change regularly but I don't plan on breaking these down too often so grease I think is a better long term option for the CV given longer service intervals.

Any comments on the above plan would be gladly received.

Thanks,

Ian.

[Drover]

Firstly, thanks SteveG - just what I was after.

With reference to the RTC3511, reading around I have heard mention of part no FRC8221 (now superseded by FTC4785) a tripple lipped seal, apparently interchangeable with the double lipped RTC3511. Anyone know more about this? True or BS?

Secondly,

Grover, three questions if I may:

When you did this were you supplied with new front axel shaft seals (swivel housing to diff casing) to match the larger half shafts? I haven't got any with the stuff I bought.

What about the rear outer shaft seal? If retained is that kept original? Or would it require a new larger seal? I presume the upgraded rear shaft is thicker than the original (although I don't know this) so a replacement one is required.

And, did you find the end float had changed much with the new CV and halfshafts? Did it require adjustment of the shims between the flange and cir clip on the front? And since the originals are one piece flange and shaft - what about the rear? I'm wondering if I should try to acquire some shims just in case, and perhaps how many, or just hope for the best. If you know the part No. that'd be helpful.

So.....

at the moment I'm toying with the idea of keeping all of the seals and just upgrading the outer seals to higher spec (RTC3511 / FTC4785 type) and tapping a fill and drain hole in each of the HD flanges. I've measured them up and it looks like theres plenty of meat on them to accommodate a couple of 5 - 7 mm holes. This way I have drainable oil lubed hubs, greased CV's / swivels (not drainable due to no drain plug), and (of course, hopefully?) oil in the diff. The main advantage to this being a reduced chance of cross contamination between these areas if / when seals fail and allow them to be checked for contamination independently. It dawned on me that without a drain plug in the swivel housing it'll always be a strip down job to replace the lube in there as you can never drain the bottom of the swivel housing through the hub or the diff. If it had a drain I'd use oil in the swivels (not tap the hubs) and change regularly but I don't plan on breaking these down too often so grease I think is a better long term option for the CV given longer service intervals.

Any comments on the above plan would be gladly received.

Thanks,

Ian.

Ian, sounds like your over thinking it.

The Ashcroft HD 1/2 shafts use same seals as the standard shafts, the running surface for the seals are machines down to suit.

My wheel bearings (front and rears) did not require shimming, I just reassembled them with the stock parts and torqued them down with the lock nut. 3 years down the track and still no further adjustment needed.

My Ashcroft CV's, 1/2 shafts and HD dive flanges have been in for 3 years without any issues or indication of any issues appearing.

My front diff oil was black for several changes, while the grease from the new CV's slowly dispersed, now it clean as.

At the end of the day it is your truck and you have to do what you think is best, but really this is tried and true conversion.

Cheers

[steane]

I fitted hituff front halfshafts and ashcroft cvs and the end float did change. I was able to leave a shim out to get the correct end float. So perhaps see how you go. Can also depend a bit on the gasket thicknesses or silicone you use between the swivel housing to axle and swivel housing to stub axle I would think, if only marginally.

Cant remember if you were planning a swivel housing rebuild but its a good idea while you are in there and should ensure no leaks. Not hard to do and you can buy kits with everything you need.

I packed all bearings with grease initially, it mixes with the oil without issue.

As others have said, make sure your stub axles are in good condition. One of mine wasnt and I ended up doing it again. Stub axles arent real expensive.

I kept the seals between the axle and the swivel housing, so run the three compartment system.

[TonyC]

So.....

at the moment I'm toying with the idea of keeping all of the seals and just upgrading the outer seals to higher spec (RTC3511 / FTC4785 type) and tapping a fill and drain hole in each of the HD flanges. I've measured them up and it looks like theres plenty of meat on them to accommodate a couple of 5 - 7 mm holes. This way I have drainable oil lubed hubs, greased CV's / swivels (not drainable due to no drain plug), and (of course, hopefully?) oil in the diff. The main advantage to this being a reduced chance of cross contamination between these areas if / when seals fail and allow them to be checked for contamination independently. It dawned on me that without a drain plug in the swivel housing it'll always be a strip down job to replace the lube in there as you can never drain the bottom of the swivel housing through the hub or the diff. If it had a drain I'd use oil in the swivels (not tap the hubs) and change regularly but I don't plan on breaking these down too often so grease I think is a better long term option for the CV given longer service intervals.

Any comments on the above plan would be gladly received.

Thanks,

Ian.

Ian,
Is there any good reason that you can't drill and tap drain holes in the swivel hubs while it's all in bits?

Tony

[Dougal]

I'm not seeing a benefit in having 5 different oil levels to check in the front axle assembly.

Lately I've been considering ditching the inner seals and just having one fill/level to worry about.

[Sitec]

I just did all this last week... I've kept three 'oil compartments'. Retain the diff/ axle as one. Replace the seals in the axle ends. As I had a leaking swivel balls I replaced the seals at this point. Replace the needle roller bearing that supports the new Ashcroft CV, but leave the old seal in there as it acts as a bearing spacer. Cut the lip out of it though to allow the oil to migrate. Remember to replace all your hub seals for the 'oil type' as the ones fitted will be the grease type! As you are fitting the HTE shafts, as said before, you won't have to worry about oil leaks. It should be noted though, do NOT use loctite on the end caps as you will never get them off again. Also be prepared to find stretched 'End Cap' bolts... All mine needed replacing as some heavy handed monkey had been in there before and stretched them all and broken one, along with using a chisel on the hub nuts!!

Ok, one last important note, when you buy your front HTE axle shafts, I'm assuming you are combining them with a set of the Ashcroft CV's to suit the later axle... In this case, you won't be supplied with the 'CV upgrade kit' as the CV's are built to match your old ones.. Your new shafts won't come with the spacer and snap ring needed to fit/lock them to the CV, so you will need to order the correct ones (RTC4820 ring and FTC254 spacer) of the earlier axles or you will end up with floating axles!

I bought my Detroit and Trutrac from Lucky8 on here as he was half the OZ prices, and all the shafts came from Les Richmond Auto (HTE recommended him)! Good luck!

[mools]

Hi,

some good responses there, thanks, it is appreciated.

I have a few answers and a few more questions so...

Drover, you are spot on I am over thinking it - thats what I tend to do. Do the theory then the practice. Yes, maybe getting going in to things a little far but I can reign myself in later if need be, that's what usually happens. But with regard to the end float (not the wheel bearing) that's a very real concern as if I'm laying out the expense I dont want to shaft anything longer term with a sloppy install. Tried and tested install - yes it is, but tried and tested by me - no.

Tony, in an ideal world I would put a drain plug in the swivel housing but... I dont have a drill press and don't want too much down time on the truck. Whilst I can take the driveflanges to be drilled and tapped before stripping it all down the same is not true for the swivel housing. Compromise I know but that's life.

Dougal, the reasons for keeping the compartments separate would be a) easier to trace which seals become defective. b) less chance of cross contamination if / when seals fail, these are explicitly stated in my post from 21st April 2013 04:13 PM. I could add that it could make it slightly easier / less messy to strip down to get at somthing on the outside of the hub, say a wheel bearing. On the negative side more levels to check but that does not bother me - its a plus. I don't find the level is the worry per-se, more the reason why the level is not as it should be is the worry, separate compartments could help determine whats up quicker - but having said that - there is a lot to be said for KISS and oil leaks are usually (relatively)easy to find. I both agree and disagree with you :).

Sitec, you preempted some questions RE the seal and its use as a bearing spacer but also raised some more...
What did you use to cut the lip off the seal?

Do you think it is nesesary to replace the needle roller bearing? I wasn't planning on doing this, was yours worn? My truck is relatively low KM's (circa 100k)

Also, regarding the spacer and circlips for the half shafts, thanks for the part no's very useful to know. But I was planning to use the spacer off the half shafts I remove and new circlips came with the CV's and the halfshafts (which are Ashcroft not HTE), but please let me know if you think this would present a problem.

So all in all, the jury is still out on exactly how I'm going to convert to oil lubed hubs - my main bug bear being that undrainable 'sump' in the swivel housing. But I'll think on it some more.

In the mean time any further advise or suggestions glady received,

regards,

Ian.

[MLD]

re draining the swivel sans a drain plug. I was doing this research exercise last year until i bought a house and all my money has disappeared.

In my reading I came across somewhere that you can release the metal retention gasket that holds the external swivel seal in place and the oil drains out.

Taking the part number off Bearmach catalogue page 3 for VA.... on

FTC3401 oil seal
FRC4206 gasket

Not as convenient as a drain plug but may be alternative solution.

That page also lists the spacer and retention clip part number for the CV referred to in an earlier post.

cheers MLD

[Dougal]

re draining the swivel sans a drain plug. I was doing this research exercise last year until i bought a house and all my money has disappeared.

In my reading I came across somewhere that you can release the metal retention gasket that holds the external swivel seal in place and the oil drains out.

That'll work, but the oil won't come out and be caught as cleanly as an actual drain hole.

Drill, tap, fit bolt with copper/aluminium washer. Done.

[roverrescue]

Mools,
I envisage you will do what you want to do anyways SOOOOO just to encourage a little

For trailers with proper bearings and hubs I have run a system as you suggest.
Good rear seals, grease and oil combo then a flange with fill hole. Spin it to the up position to fill, then spin hub to down position to drain.
It works, you can can get the hub compartment half filled with oil - all is well with the world
To drain most comes out but to properly clean your gonna need to yank the hubs off (no bother really)

To be frank though I would just run her straight through no seals but RTC3511 and proper flanges with sealant.

I have waded through wet season mud for way to long and never had ingress of any significance

when it comes time to drain and fill pull the diff plug, fill her up and the little remaining residue is just that - residue. Once every couple of years pull the hubs/swivels and clean her up - dont think you will find any problems?

Steve

[Sitec]

Hi Mools.
Re the seal, firstly I hooked the seal spring out, then used a sharpened screwdriver and worked my way around the lip. It does not have to be that neat so long as the oil can migrate. I couldn't bring myself to trashing a new seal, so spent a little time cutting the old one out neatly!!

As for the roller bearings.. no they prob won't be that worn, but my local LR mechanic/parts supplier Brendan at British 4x4 rightly said to me that if you are replacing the CV's then change the needle rollers.. Good practise I guess.

Spacers... I only brought this point up as I got caught out. If your vehicle is Td5 or newer (don't quote me on this tho as I might be wrong) you will lave the later shafts which have the smaller 32 spline (I think) at the CV end so the spacer and snap ring in your current CV will be too small to fit over the new shaft.... If you are running the older 110 axle then you will have the older AEU 2522 CV which if original is pretty strong and will have the correct sized spacer so no panic (and IMO no need to upgrade the CV).

If you are using Ashcroft shafts as well as CV's does this mean you are using the old Land Rover 'End Caps' with the pop on rubber cover? These leak if you convert to oil in the bearings and need upgrading... HTE caps with oil proof covers can be bought separately... Don't forget to drill a small hole in the stub axle between where the two bearings sit as this helps oil migrate to the rear/inner hub bearing without having to work through the outer bearing first...

Re drilling holes in the flange caps.... The ones in the series caps were never looked at IMO, the oil will get there! It has too!! I did all the work on the front of mine, filled the swivels, drove to work and back a few times, then re checked them and topped them up the night before we drove to the Vic High Country from Adelaide... 2500km later and we got home this avo. If the oil had not got here I'd have found out somewhere the far side of Murray Bridge on the trip out I guess!! :p

Re the lack of swivel drain holes... I hear ya!! WTF is that all about?? Perhaps the guy who used to drill the drain holes and fit a plug got bored and went to work for Tata!!!:D

[Dougal]

If you are using Ashcroft shafts as well as CV's does this mean you are using the old Land Rover 'End Caps' with the pop on rubber cover? These leak if you convert to oil in the bearings and need upgrading...

I think he's going to use the screw on covers. But the rubber caps can be sealed oil-tight very easily. A bead of silicon around the lip and fit a zip-tie around the rubber cap once it's in place. The zip-tie is key, it is difficult (but not impossible) to get them to seal without it.

My 85 was originally oil lubed bearings. I didn't have any stub axle hole drilled. IMO it's not needed.

[rick130]

I think he's going to use the screw on covers. But the rubber caps can be sealed oil-tight very easily. A bead of silicon around the lip and fit a zip-tie around the rubber cap once it's in place. The zip-tie is key, it is difficult (but not impossible) to get them to seal without it.

My 85 was originally oil lubed bearings. I didn't have any stub axle hole drilled. IMO it's not needed.


My front rubber caps aren't leaking (yet) with just a smear of grease around the cap lip, but the caps are pretty new too.

[Dougal]

My front rubber caps aren't leaking (yet) with just a smear of grease around the cap lip, but the caps are pretty new too.

I had a terrible time with them before I tried the zip-tie. Lots of silicon and on about the 3rd clean and re-seal they'd stop leaking.

[mools]

Like Dougal said I'll be using the upgraded drive flanges with the bolt on end cap so shouldn't have any issues with regard to leaking there. Having got a bit burnt with a some 'HD drive flanges', sold locally to me as Ashcroft, but when mine turned up from the UK bore no resemblance to the real deal - in both materials and engineering :mad:, I have to get a couple more. Luckily enough I'll be in the UK soon so might go and pick them up myself.

Thanks for the zip tie suggestions though but god knows there are enough cable ties on the vehicle as it is without having one per wheel to boot!:D

So, at the moment, I'm thinking that I'm gonna keep things simple and run it all as one compartment. That is, up the front remove the seal between the swivel and the diff housing, upgrade the outer seal to RTC3511 and bastardise, sorry, modify the inner seal to allow the oil through. And similar at the back too. It's not the most elegant solution - I'd rather have drains in the swivels but alas.

Sitec, regarding the spacer on the front half shafts. Thanks for the info. it had slipped my mind that my shafts will be wider and that I can't re-use the old one. But... I'm wondering what the spacer actually does? Is it nesesary? There is no mention of this on the Ashcroft website despite the mention of larger (swivel to diff) oil seals being required to prevent oil transfere. If the spacer is required I'm not sure if a replacement stock (23 spline) spacer will actually fit the Ashcroft shaft diameter or be of the correct dimentions (although I'm pretty sure it should be of the right length as the CV's are of identical size acording to the website). Anyone any thoughts or experience of this? Drover what did you do here?

RE: Drilling the stub axle - yes that sounds like a reasonable idea but is it nesesary? I'd appreciate anyone elses opinion as I have one for and one against this.

If I do drill them... Sitec, what constetutes a 'small' hole in your book? And to save time measuring up and working it all out when the stuff is in peices, does anyone know if the diagrams in the workshop manual are to scale? (I know thats easily worked out, I'm being really lazy there so don't answer that last question).

By the time I get to doing this I will probably have rehearsed every operation in my mind a thousand times. Still, if I can borrow someone elses experience (and their happy to lend it) then I'm very appreciative.

Anything else anyone would like to add then feel free - all advise and opinions gladlt received.

Thanks again for all the responses,

Ian.

[Ancient Mariner]

I would keep the diff as a seperate compartment as any water from water crossings will most likely be thru the swivel housings

[Drover]

Hey Ian,

The more I read the more I doubt my own install, but it was 3 years ago, once across the Simpson and trip to the cape without any problem I think I'm safe....

By no problems I mean, no water in either diff ever (after the Cape happy to say no water is ever getting in ) original wheel bearings all round without any further adjustment and nil oil leaks.

Back to the subject, I followed the advice from Englich Auto Servicing. So I removed all the factory seal.

The only ones to go back in were the seals that fit in behind the dsk rotors and run against the stub axels.

The diff oil is free to move from one end to the other, only stopped by the Ashcroft HD flanges with the screw on caps and those newly replaced oil seals.

Hope that helps.

Grant

[Sitec]

Agreed here too.. Keep the diff separate. Re the spacer, I had some old Range Rover front shafts here.... and the spacer fitted fine. When looking up the snap rings I checked the compatibility. All the same! Have more here if you r stuck! Yes, the spacer is needed, as it holds the shaft in the right place within the CV IMO. Without it, there is nothing to stop the shaft sliding 10mm further into the diff or CV (floating). Some say this is not a prob, others say if its there its needed (kinda like the 5 nuts that hold each wheel on.. 3 will do but 5 are needed!!:D). Re the hole in the stub axle, I drilled mine at 3mm. You wont need to do any measuring, as the bearings leave two marks where they run. just go in the middle of that, and make sure its at the bottom when fitted. It was suggested to me on here.. I like the idea and ran with it. :)

[rick130]

RE: Drilling the stub axle - yes that sounds like a reasonable idea but is it nesesary? I'd appreciate anyone elses opinion as I have one for and one against this.


Ian.

I never bothered, the idea of introducing a stress raiser there freaks me out and I've never lunched a wheel bearing as a consequence of not having a drilling in 230,000km/ten years.

Never had water in an axle/diff in that time either and for six years I drove through a river at least twice a day just to get in and out of home, let alone multiple creek crossings and one memorable flooded river crossing where a fully loaded 130 was taken two/three car widths sideways downstream just trying to get into and then out of a job :angel:

I realise all it takes is a broken/split breather tube so maybe I've been lucky, but the RTC3511 hub seals are good, as are the pinion seals and the old rule of thumb was if you came upon a deep river crossing and your compartments were warm/hot, just take fifteen minutes to boil the billy before crossing ;)

[jboot51]

With regards to draining the swivel housing.
Not sure yours is the same as my 1995, but I can undo one of the lower swivel bearing retaining pin bolts to drop the oil.

I also run extra oil.
Maybe close to 2 litres extra.
I fill via the diff breather hole, then use a plastic straw as a dipstick until there is 12-15mm coverage on the axle tube.
I've replace the breather fitting with a "push in to connect air fitting" for easy access.

My diff runs as 1 compartment.
The + side to this is swivels are now vented to atmosphere via the diff breather.

[Ancient Mariner]

There in lies the problem putting a 130 in a river .What are you trying to do
Dam it:D I used to run a air horn compressor bolted io the rollbar and piped to
diffs- GB-TC and distributor worked extremely well;) No induced stressraisers in my stub axles:angel:

AM

[steane]

I'm with Rick. No way would I drill a hole through the stub axle and doesn't seem to need it anyway. Plenty of oil gets into the bearings without it.

[Bush65]

How the heck did drilling holes through the stub shaft get into the conversion from grease lubrication to oil lubrication :eek:. Every Land Rover stub axle I've ever seen has a big hole right though the centre so oil can flow through and lubricate the bearings, splines and seal lips.

You blokes who want to re-invent the wheel should have some nouce and if you don't know what you are doing, don't put silly ideas in the heads of others who don't know any better.

For many years oil lubrication was normal for Land Rovers and they never had such silly holes through the side of the stub axles. Because some people run with badly adjusted or worn swivel bearings, the seals on the swivel balls leak. Grease lubrication avoids those leaks, but is an inferior method of lubrication for cv's, wheel bearings and splines.

IMHO drilling the caps on aftermarket flanges is also a silly idea, and there are sounder alternatives (plenty of suggestions in other posts here).

[Ancient Mariner]

How many versions of swivel housings were used ? mine have 3 plugs top filler
a middle level? and a bottom drain I filled by the top plug to overflow left it overnight undid the level plug and let the excess out. If that did not lubricate
everything nothing will:o
The PO solved the problem Sealed for life hubs .Welded the axles to the flanges OK for the rears but made bearing adjustment difficult on the fronts

AM

[Sitec]

Meeeooowwww! It's just a suggestion Bush65! That's what forums are all about are they not?? The tonnage needed to break a stub axle in half would be huge.. In the 20's IMO, not the 3 tonnes of an overloaded Land Rover... I think the thin section with thread and locking nut would give away first. Either way, I know there is oil and plenty of it floating around the inner bearings on my axle.

[Red90]

How many versions of swivel housings were used ?
They removed the level and drain plugs after the introduction of grease for the swivel. Just another stupid thing that makes no sense.

[Dougal]

They removed the level and drain plugs after the introduction of grease for the swivel. Just another stupid thing that makes no sense.

It was some-time after. I have 97 disco axles which came with the greased swivels but still have drain plugs.

[rick130]

It was some-time after. I have 97 disco axles which came with the greased swivels but still have drain plugs.


My late '98 swivels only have the fill plug, you need to undo a lower swivel bearing retainer bolt to drain the bloody thing and use a piece of silver solder to act as a dip stick.

[rick130]

Grease lubrication avoids those leaks, but is an inferior method of lubrication for cv's,...



I agree oil is far better for roller bearings and splines, it's been proven time and again in the trucking industry that hub bearings that are oil lubed run cooler and last longer (as do their seals) than a comparable greased hub bearing, and the spline issue is a no-brainer.

I actually think a dedicated CV grease is superior to any heavy oil for ultimate CV protection/wear, it will have a much higher load rating due to the lubricating solids added.
The Land Rover 'One Shot' stuff is very average though, it's just a basic mineral oil with a Li complex thickener and 3% MoS2.
The reason Land Rover use an NLGI 00 grease is that it's pretty much a liquid at room temp so splashes around nicely in the housing, keeping the swivels lubed yet doesn't leak past the seals quite as readily as an SAE 90 oil.

I'm splitting hairs though, and I run oil (well, a mix, I keep the compartment separate and add 'stuff' to the oil :angel: and no it's not crap like Moreys or Lucas or STP 'thickeners')

[Ancient Mariner]

Banana skins?:p

[Loubrey]

I agree oil is far better for roller bearings and splines, it's been proven time and again in the trucking industry that hub bearings that are oil lubed run cooler and last longer (as do their seals) than a comparable greased hub bearing, and the spline issue is a no-brainer.

I actually think a dedicated CV grease is superior to any heavy oil for ultimate CV protection/wear, it will have a much higher load rating due to the lubricating solids added.
The Land Rover 'One Shot' stuff is very average though, it's just a basic mineral oil with a Li complex thickener and 3% MoS2.
The reason Land Rover use an NLGI 00 grease is that it's pretty much a liquid at room temp so splashes around nicely in the housing, keeping the swivels lubed yet doesn't leak past the seals quite as readily as an SAE 90 oil.

I'm splitting hairs though, and I run oil (well, a mix, I keep the compartment separate and add 'stuff' to the oil :angel: and no it's not crap like Moreys or Lucas or STP 'thickeners')

Rick,

What grease would you recommend as a better dedicated CV grease?

It's been a while since I've worked on the front CV's, but my cars have all been 300Tdi and newer and I've always used the 'one shot' stuff. Always keen to look at better options as regardless of the price of more expensive grease, it will never get close to the price and effort of replacing worn parts...

Cheers,

Lou

[rick130]

Banana skins?:p

Experience ? :D

[rick130]

Rick,

What grease would you recommend as a better dedicated CV grease?

It's been a while since I've worked on the front CV's, but my cars have all been 300Tdi and newer and I've always used the 'one shot' stuff. Always keen to look at better options as regardless of the price of more expensive grease, it will never get close to the price and effort of replacing worn parts...

Cheers,

Lou

Lou, the ones I know that are very, very good are too thick for Landy CV's IMO as they are all NLGI 1 or 2 greases, the same consistency as normal chassis or wheel bearing grease.

The best one I've ever used is superseded now and highly 'unfashionable' (read, potentially toxic and environmentally unsuitable) as one of the major EP additives is lead napthanate, on top of the MoS2 and graphite it contains in copious doses alongside a heavy ester base oil.
It probably has antimony and all sorts of other goodies too.
It was developed for the 1500cc turbo F1 cars in the eighties.
Not sure what the soap/thickener was in that one. (I still have a small amount left)

I've thought of trying some CAT Arctic Platinum grease as it's an NLGI 0 grease with 5% moly and uses a calcium sulfonate thickener (brilliant for rust/corrosion prevention) but it still only rates around a 65lb Timken OK load rating. (which is well above the One Shot @ 35-40lb)
4 ball weld point is double for the CAT grease too at 615kg.

All the exotic/toxic additives are illegal now, and for good reasons too, we damned near used to bathe in the stuff.






Standard CV's are glass hard for a reason, it means pretty much zero wear over their life but they won't take huge shock loads as they are so hard.

Ashcrofts and KAM's CV's use premium steels but are tempered to a lower RC number so they don't go BANG under shock loading, but wear (deform) much faster (compared to a stock CV) as they are softer.

This is where I think a better CV grease or HD oil containing suspended solid lubricants or soluble EP compounds may help.

Hmm, Redline Heavy Weight Shockproof gear oil might be the ticket, it's heavily overbased with suspended calcium, although I've been told it's not great from a moisture POV.

[mools]

Lou,

For what it's worth Ashcroft recommend this stuff...

Morris Lubricants K48 moly EP Grease.

"...manufactured from a Lithium soap base and highly refined mineral oil, with added Molybdenum Disulphide to provide protection against seizure in conditions when ordinary greases would fail. Also included in this grease are additives to stop corrosion, rust and oxidation. Additionally this grease shows excellent resistance to severe mechanical working."

Then filling the swivel housing with one shot.

(Shamelessly lifted from their website)

Ian.

[rick130]

Lou,

For what it's worth Ashcroft recommend this stuff...

Morris Lubricants K48 moly EP Grease.


Ian.


That's just an average, lightly Moly fortified (only 1%) NLGI 2, Li complex grease and doesn't have as much moly as, say Castrol LMM. (3% MoS2, Li complex soap and which I've used forever in sliding splines, ball joints and uni's)

It's nothing flash and not on a par with CAT Arctic Platinum (NLGI 0) or Desert Gold (NLGI 2) greases which use full synthetic base oils, use a brilliant soap/thickener to eliminate water washout and corrosion (excellent for exposed joints, ball joints, splines, etc) and have 5% MoS2 (5% is the maximum amount of moly able to be used in a grease, any more is actually useless)

Most all blenders make some exceptional greases, usually aimed at the mining industry.

[Ancient Mariner]

FX diff:(

[roverrescue]

Rick,

I have used Castrol LMM or Castrol Marine forever.
Just the other day the bearing gun ran dry so off I went to the local "I sell everything shop"

He now stocks GulfWestern the "'Stralian" product.
I was umming and arring over the Gulf Western 'Mining Heavy Duty' vs their 'Marine' offering.
Do you have any insights on which would be best for wheel bearings etc etc (think boat trailer bearings and servicing tojos/ canters/ patrols wheel bearings)

Ill stick with the LMM for sliding joints and CVs... Just because I still have plenty.

S

[Bush65]

I have lingering doubts about grease staying inside a Land Rover cv at high rpm where it is needed, vs a good ep oil filled to the correct level.

[mools]

I have lingering doubts about grease staying inside a Land Rover cv at high rpm where it is needed, vs a good ep oil filled to the correct level.

Landrover swivels have been grease lubed for quite some time now and there doesn't seem to have been loads of cases of worn out CV's. Perhaps that's due to useing the one shot which, as Rick states, is pretty much liquid at room temp so won't suffer that particular problem. I don't think anyone is suggesting using high viscosity grease alone.

I'm returning to the idea of drilling and tapping the drive flanges.

Ian.

[Sitec]

Just reading on, I decided to run the oil in mine with the Ashcroft CV's. interesting point about them wearing faster as they are not 'glass' hard... How much faster?? :(.. Re oils, in the Ag industry we have something called EPLO which is like a seriously thick gear oil. It gets used in rotary hoe gearboxes etc and I'm told can put up with a fair hammering whilst remaining very 'sticky'... Will look at the spec on the drum tomorrow!

[rick130]

Rick,

I have used Castrol LMM or Castrol Marine forever.
Just the other day the bearing gun ran dry so off I went to the local "I sell everything shop"

He now stocks GulfWestern the "'Stralian" product.
I was umming and arring over the Gulf Western 'Mining Heavy Duty' vs their 'Marine' offering.
Do you have any insights on which would be best for wheel bearings etc etc (think boat trailer bearings and servicing tojos/ canters/ patrols wheel bearings)

Ill stick with the LMM for sliding joints and CVs... Just because I still have plenty.

S

Steve, I've never had a ball joint, king pin or sliding joint wear out when using LMM and yet it isn't that flash on the spec sheet :lol2:

I've pretty much switched over to CAT Desert Gold for the cars, I'll just use the LMM up on the quad and tractor, although IIRC I think I used the CAT grease all over the tractor last time :angel:

[rick130]

I have lingering doubts about grease staying inside a Land Rover cv at high rpm where it is needed, vs a good ep oil filled to the correct level.

It was never an issue in F1, Champ Car and Sports cars when they used to run CV's and I think their rotational speeds were a tad higher than anything we'll ever drive :D

OK, ok, they had boots, but if the grease was centrifuging out it would've ended up in the boots, and I never saw that with the CV's on the tiddler open wheelers I looked after either, they were always full of grease where it needed to be and they saw up to 250km/h with only 13" rims.

The Land Rover CV's are only seeing (relatively) high RPM's when driving in a straight line, we're all only doing low RPM's at high steering angles where stuff may be flung clear of the body.

TLC's and Patrols all use grease in their CV's too and they don't seem to die premature deaths.

We often run around with the hubs locked on the Patrol at speeds up 120km/h and I haven't re-packed the CV's for well over 200,000km. :angel:

As I said previously, I'd prefer to run a high EP oil but most gear oils don't have the load carrying ability and definitely not the shock load capability of an application specific grease, contrary to what the cognoscenti continue to claim across the forums.
Redline's Shockproof may be the exception, and there will be a few others too, but they aren't run of the mill GL5 diff fluids.

[AndyDuncan]

Food for thought.

Land Rover state that the reason they chose to grease the CV over oil is to retain Lube in the CV on angles, Good point.
But also and more importantly Id presume, is there will only be one lip seal stopping bulk oil ending up on your brake rotor vs 3 seals.
There is nothing wrong with grease, it is better suited to this application than oil. Oil has no where near the shear strength of grease this means the oil will push out easier than the grease will, yes oil will help keep it cooler, but unless your running the Dakar with massive HP and making prolonged turns, under power and well over 100kms and hour, there is no need. Id rather have grease and know when the wheel in the air comes down or grabs traction it has lubrication, and it has not been above the oil level draining for however long and cop a shock load basically dry.

[roverrescue]

If you half fill the swivel hub with oil there will be no angle - including vehicle inverted - that the cv will be dry of oil
Andy are you going to drop the oil out of your transfer case and grease it all up instead???

S

[1nando]

Slightly off topic but i would imagine the front diff would be the weakest link??
Is this upgrade worth while with a standard diff or as a must after upgrading the diff?
I already have an elocker in the rear and was just going to add a elocker to the front and an atb in the centre, thought this should be up to task with no issues?

Sent from my SM-G925I using AULRO mobile app

[rick130]

Slightly off topic but i would imagine the front diff would be the weakest link??
Is this upgrade worth while with a standard diff or as a must after upgrading the diff?
I already have an elocker in the rear and was just going to add a elocker to the front and an atb in the centre, thought this should be up to task with no issues?

Sent from my SM-G925I using AULRO mobile app


The CV's and stub axle on post 200Tdi Deefers are even weaker than the CWP.
Anything you do to make them better is an improvement.

[rick130]

Food for thought.

Land Rover state that the reason they chose to grease the CV over oil is to retain Lube in the CV on angles, Good point.
But also and more importantly Id presume, is there will only be one lip seal stopping bulk oil ending up on your brake rotor vs 3 seals.
There is nothing wrong with grease, it is better suited to this application than oil. Oil has no where near the shear strength of grease this means the oil will push out easier than the grease will, yes oil will help keep it cooler, but unless your running the Dakar with massive HP and making prolonged turns, under power and well over 100kms and hour, there is no need. Id rather have grease and know when the wheel in the air comes down or grabs traction it has lubrication, and it has not been above the oil level draining for however long and cop a shock load basically dry.

Grease was used in the CV's when BMW took over Rover purely to reduce leaks, 'One Shot' is a very average CV grease. ;)
As Steve said, oil filled swivels won't be dry, ever.

The CV issues aren't a lube issue, they are a CV size/design/stub axle size issue.

[timax]

Drilling the housing and fitting a drain is easier than it sounds also. I had one with a drain and one without so i could see where to drill and tap a 6mm hole.
Undoing the bottom bearing bolts to let the out oil may mean that it wont then seal as well. Mine is all sealed with gasket maker. No paper gaskets used.I also overfilled everything from the diff breather hole , waited overnight and a short drive before opening the middle level plug on the housings to let the oil level stabilise. No water is going to get in anywhere if you do the job properly and it makes for easy draining and refilling. I like clean oil and will change it once per year in my case.
The next question is what oil to use? I was going to use some heavyweight redline shockproof i had laying around but didnt quite have enough so just used Castrol axle 80-90 i think it was after reading about the 140 causing heat. I dont like hot and dirty. Not with cars anyway ;)

[AndyDuncan]

If you half fill the swivel hub with oil there will be no angle - including vehicle inverted - that the cv will be dry of oil
Andy are you going to drop the oil out of your transfer case and grease it all up instead???

S

For this be be right then your leaving in the axle seal item number 8, you would be right the oil will stay there if that seal is left in, but with very little clearance for new bungs to be drilled and tapped, how do you maintain the oil or fill it? Because you cant do it through the diff then, and there is obviously clearance and quite a bit I might add between the axle and the housing so oil will disappear pretty quick on side angles. There will be residue that's about it. But as I said before about shear strength of grease vs oil, and the safety fact of one seal between oil and brakes with a syntrifical force not helping it.
Also wheel bearing tolerance changes because your changing from grease to oil for lube. You will require a tighter clearance.
Grease is used in some applications in gearboxes and work quite well. Its not a stupid idea using grease in an LT230 because you do have high bearings in the box that would possibly benefit from it, but you would nee to seal them to retain it.

[roverrescue]

Lots of ways to skin that front axle cat
Can flick the axle seal and over fill the whole diff/axle
Either way installing a swivel drain and changing the hub seal to RTC3511 is best practice

Wheel bearings in oil will have near indefinite lifespan
John has 600oookm on his county bearings from memory
Greased bearings are a maintenance item

I think you are over thinking the cv lube requirements - 80-90W splash lubricated will not harm the cv as much as a thoughtless right boot

As Rick said above, the change from an oil filled axle to grease swivel and bearings was an engineering backward step to reduce oil leaks

Oh and if you run grease swivel get water in - you are up for complete strip down to prevent serious cv and bearing damage
With oil filled you drain and refill - done

S

[rick130]

The next question is what oil to use? I was going to use some heavyweight redline shockproof i had laying around but didnt quite have enough so just used Castrol axle 80-90 i think it was after reading about the 140 causing heat. I dont like hot and dirty. Not with cars anyway ;)

RL Shockproof would've been really good, except a triboligist told me once it doesn't like moisture, something to do with the colloidal calcium additive RL uses ?
The borate ester additised gear oils that Caltex (Chevron-Texaco) and Penrite sell have excellent EP performance, better than most all Sulfur-Phosphorous gear oils, but again, they don't mix well with water.

SAE140 would've been fine IMO, I think my swivels have an 80W-140 in them.

[AndyDuncan]

I ended up getting onto Ashcroft and brittish, they advise to use Oneshot grease, thats what their CVs are designed for, oil is not up to the job. its ok if your hiway running and granny footing it, but If your using it pretty heavily off road i.e. breaking CVs as I have oil wont last in a decent CV under those stress conditions.

[timax]

RL Shockproof would've been really good, except a triboligist told me once it doesn't like moisture, something to do with the colloidal calcium additive RL uses ?
The borate ester additised gear oils that Caltex (Chevron-Texaco) and Penrite sell have excellent EP performance, better than most all Sulfur-Phosphorous gear oils, but again, they don't mix well with water.

SAE140 would've been fine IMO, I think my swivels have an 80W-140 in them.

Yes i have also read that. In general gear oils seem to be a little hydroscopic like brake fluid. Personally i think no oil and water should mix so best to make sure its well sealed. Any grease is a srtip down but atleast the oil can be drained. Problem then is cost of the super high pressure oils that probably should be used with a cv when not running grease. Not being a lube expert though i would have thought the pressure between gear teeth in a racing transmission or differential would be very high and oil also doesn't keep the heat localized at the point of friction as it drains away.
Having said that the Toyota T50 box in my little race car was coated inside with lightweight shockproof and i found it was very sticky. Changed to their MTL though as it pumps easily through a cooler where the Shockproof is a strange "hard" sort of liquid that dosnt pump well. I do use it in my transfer case though. Leaves blue spots on my driveway now!;)