camper trailer questions...

[djambalawa]

Hi folks just bought me a 2nd hand camper trailer - seems like an oldie but a goodie.

It has an anderson plug near the tow hitch which seems to be for charging the batteries as you're going along? Just wondering what the easiest/best way is to hook this up to the D4? I read somewhere that the left white plug on the back is for charging caravans etc.. can I get a converter or something? Or does it need another cable run in the car for this?

Also... the trailer did apparently have a 4wd hitch system but the last owner put a normal ball hitch on the trailer... and didn't keep the old (Treg?) one... I assume this is just a matter of getting the right hayman reece style treg for the mitchel bros hitch, and bolting on the reciever hitch on the trailer drawbar? I've never used this style of treg hitch before... any suggestions on brand or whatever welcome!

The camper is an offroad "aussie swag" model.

[Geedublya]

There is 12v at the white plug, however the wiring to it is much too small to carry the current required to charge or otherwise power your camper trailer.

What you really need to do is add a dual battery controller (usually under the bonnet) and the appropriately sized cabling to the rear of your car to charge your camper batteries.

If you go to the traxide (http://www.traxide.com.au/D3_4_Index/D4_Kit3.html) website Tim has some good diagrams of what is required or you can buy the whole kit from him.

As for the hitch, you can buy a new Treg system and bolt that to your camper. It will come with both parts and connect to whatever receiver you wish to use in the Mitch Hitch. I use an adjustable receiver so I can get the trailer level as the Mitch Hitch is fairly high.

The Treg system is a good strong and reliable (if it is genuine) system, however it can be a bit of a pain to align when hitching and the poly block is prone to wear. I use a McHitch (http://www.mchitch.com.au/about.html) which is easier to connect and I think a better system.

[djambalawa]

What you really need to do is add a dual battery controller (usually under the bonnet) and the appropriately sized cabling to the rear of your car to charge your camper batteries.

I use a McHitch (http://www.mchitch.com.au/about.html) which is easier to connect and I think a better system.

Thanks mate - so you don't have a 2nd battery in the car but just the dual system to look after the trailer batteries?

The McHitch system looks great - I'll reckon I'll give it a go :)

[Geedublya]

I do have a second battery which I use to power my engel and other accessories.
A dual battery is not required if you just want to charge the camper batteries.

I should have mentioned there are other off road hitches such as the vehicle components DO-35 (http://www.vehiclecomponents.com.au/products/hitchmaster/hitchmaster-do35), the Oz Hitch (http://ozhitch.com/), Alko hitch (http://www.alko.com.au/uploads/2008/12/Off-Road-Coupling-Fitting-Instructions.pdf) and Hyland hitch (http://www.trailerwarehouse.com.au/contents/en-us/d218.html).

What I like about the McHitch is that the only moving part is the uni joint which is sealed and greasable by grease nipples. All the others either pivot around the pin/ball which can wear or have bushes that wear.

The McHitch is not as easy to align as the ball couplings or the Oz hitch but I think it is a better design and not very difficult to hook up.

[jimc]

Cant recommend the Traxide system enough. The kit comes complete with cables cut to length, anderson plug out the rear of your car...only needing to get your own battery.

Then you will have ample power available in your car for fridges are other bits and bobs that take your fancy..all on the second battery..so no fear of a flat starter battery.

The hitch question will open up a can of worms..everyone has their favorite. I use a DO35. They are super easy to use and the car/trailer do not have to be spot on to connect, but they are pricey.

Whatever you decide, most important thing is to get out and use your new camper...and upload some pics to make the rest of us jealous.

[weeds]

another vote for DO35 that Vehical Components make......easy to line up and drop n

i see they have changed the design a bit HITCHMASTER® drop on couplings (http://www.vehiclecomponents.com.au/products/hitchmaster)

[jimc]

I forgot to mention brake controllers. If your trailer has electric brakes fitted, you need a controller fitted to you vehicle by law.

another good investment is to ditch that OEM hitch receiver (plough) and fit a Mitch Hitch. It will give you higher clearance when towing. Mine has the tow coupling at 540mm high....but it all depends on your trailer

[Geedublya]

The way I understand it brakes are required on trailers over 750kg, up to 2 tonne these can be mechanical (over ride) or electric.
Over 2 tonne there must be a breakaway system fitted and the brakes have to be electrical.
I believe if you have over ride and electric brakes fitted under 2 tonne there is no requirement to use the electrical if the over ride is in use. I have both on my camper trailer and at the moment I'm using over ride only. I have a brake controller which I am delaying fitting as I will probably get a new vehicle in the next few months.

[Graeme]

another good investment is to ditch that OEM hitch receiver (plough)
The D4's doesn't have the same plough capability as the D3's.

[NavyDiver]

Get the White pug removed and put a dedicated Anderson Plug in its place. I did :D. Why keep something you will never use in such a useful spot?

Wiring to my new plug much improved plug is much heavier to cope with charging my trailer battery!

Some useful 'Do it yourself" examples exist or your nice Auto Electrician.

[gghaggis]

You don't need a dual battery system to charge the van and power the fridge whilst driving, although I would highly recommend the Traxide DBS anyway. The white socket OEM install is more than capable of doing the job if you wire up a suitable converter.

Cheers,

Gordon

[alpick]

maybe this would suit, just ask for an anderson plug fitting

DISCO3 Shop (http://www.disco3.co.uk/shop/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=45)

[NavyDiver]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/1167.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/JBpracman/media/D3andersonplug_zps8d461ac2.jpg.html)


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/1168.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/JBpracman/media/D3andersonplug2_zpsb39cf102.jpg.html)

[Muddy Diver]

But dont the latest on board chargers negate the need for big heavy cabling? and isnt the battery feed fused at 30A? Its the ignition wire thats fused at 15A and this isued only to send a signal to the onboard charger to apply charging current to the trailer battery. The actual charging current should be connected to the pin for battery feed whicj on my disco4 is rated at 30A more than sufficient for battery charging. Am I mistaking something here because everyone is ripping out this socket in favour of a much less capable Anderson plug and perhaos they don't need to?

[djambalawa]

But dont the latest on board chargers negate the need for big heavy cabling? and isnt the battery feed fused at 30A? Its the ignition wire thats fused at 15A and this isued only to send a signal to the onboard charger to apply charging current to the trailer battery. The actual charging current should be connected to the pin for battery feed whicj on my disco4 is rated at 30A more than sufficient for battery charging. Am I mistaking something here because everyone is ripping out this socket in favour of a much less capable Anderson plug and perhaos they don't need to?

Anyone got a pin out diagram for the white plug? I guess it won't be too hard to work it out with a multimeter...

[Geedublya]

My experience (not on my car thankfully) was that the white plug could not provide enough current to run a three way fridge in a camper and as a result the food got warm. When I looked at the white plug there was evidence that the power pin was overheating.
The solution was battery controller, larger diameter wiring and an Anderson plug.

[Muddy Diver]

Heres a good link that might explain and provides diagrams. It would appear that more than sufficient capability exists to provide a charge to a trailers battery and that this comes via either a 20Amp or a 30Amp controller. (if you need more than this you are in trouble).The practise of upgrading wiring and plugs to cope with what might be a faulty fridge drawing too much current could be disastrous and no electrician worth his salt would (should) recommend that. It's a bit like sticking a 6 inch nail in in place of a fuse when it blows rather than looking for the fault.:o

Lets not forget that there are probably more discos in the UK towing than there are total in Australia and all using this equipment so it simply cannot be a case of inadequacy. British standards are just as tight as Australian Standards and I have powered my fridge and battery adequately from such a set up any years ago

Tow Bar Electrics (http://www.pfjones.co.uk/tow-bar-electrics.html)

[Muddy Diver]

Know what? I'm begining to think that there is a fundamental difference in the uses for these sockets in Europe compared to here or in the design of the 12V fridges there. These forums are full of similar complaints about the 12S plugs being inadequate to run fridges etc yet I did this with an almost full sixed fridge in the UK with a 12 S socket on my caravan for years with no issues whatsoever. Perhaps my van battery was always just floating on the alternator output with the fridge running of it rather than the fridge being connected to the cars battery direct. I always mades ure the van battery received a giod charge the week before departure and always had the 3 way fridge cold from the house 240V before switching to 12V and leaving. Maybe its to do with expecting too much from the cars battery with a warm fridge to start with?? So, what do I do here. is my 30A supply on my 12S socket going to bake too? I'm only going to use the alternator OP to charge a 100A/hr battery on board the camper trailer (No fridge)

[Muddy Diver]

Statements made in the following text are up for critique guys, I am no expert in this and am looking for someone to convince me that my thinking is incorrect. PLease do help as I am unsure which way to proceed. I have also contacted Land Rover and will gladly feed back the response when I have it.

I spent some time trying to identify the fuses (from my manual) which are in line with the various pins of the white 12S socket on the rear of my 2013 LR4. I am desperately trying to use this socket as the thought of ripping out this socket and lifting carpets to run larger cables is worrying me on a 5 day old car:o

My attached drawing is produced as you would view the socket with the socket orientated the correct way as to my car. (location tab at 3 o'clock position. I established the battery 12V (full time live) position and followed the conventional 12s Wiring plug drawings to identify others from this benchmark. But I cant agree with the drawings that I have seen in that the blue pin at the 10 ish position is unidentified. If anyone can help please do.

I have no indication whether my drawing is attached so forgive me if i need to repost. (first time with an attachment). There is a problem wiring heavy electrical items directly to the ignition pin in that it is only fused at 15A and at 12V this will power a very small battery charger or a small recreational fridge but possibly not both. Better by far from what I see is to have suitable isolation and wire heavy items from the battery positive pin but beware that this is live at all times irrespective of the ignition status of the car and could run down the cranking battery. Is a possible solution then to swap this 30A feed over to your aux battery if running a dual system? After all this is what people do with 12v sockets which feed on board fridges etc and 30A should power just about any mobile fridge I know of.

I plan to use the ignition feed (12v+ with ignition) as the connection to a Redarc 12v 25A dc dc charger as the indication that the ignition is on (alternator running) but the charging current will be delivered via this battery feed pin (30A) Has anyone else fitted anything like this system and got away without stripping out the 12S socket.


All help or comments more than welcome.

[phl]

If you look in my gallery, I actually wired up one of them for charging externally via a CTek charger; I can say that works, so you'd need similar wiring, except to your trailer.

[Scary]

Statements made in the following text are up for critique guys, I am no expert in this and am looking for someone to convince me that my thinking is incorrect. PLease do help as I am unsure which way to proceed. I have also contacted Land Rover and will gladly feed back the response when I have it.

I spent some time trying to identify the fuses (from my manual) which are in line with the various pins of the white 12S socket on the rear of my 2013 LR4. I am desperately trying to use this socket as the thought of ripping out this socket and lifting carpets to run larger cables is worrying me on a 5 day old car:o

My attached drawing is produced as you would view the socket with the socket orientated the correct way as to my car. (location tab at 3 o'clock position. I established the battery 12V (full time live) position and followed the conventional 12s Wiring plug drawings to identify others from this benchmark. But I cant agree with the drawings that I have seen in that the blue pin at the 10 ish position is unidentified. If anyone can help please do.

I have no indication whether my drawing is attached so forgive me if i need to repost. (first time with an attachment). There is a problem wiring heavy electrical items directly to the ignition pin in that it is only fused at 15A and at 12V this will power a very small battery charger or a small recreational fridge but possibly not both. Better by far from what I see is to have suitable isolation and wire heavy items from the battery positive pin but beware that this is live at all times irrespective of the ignition status of the car and could run down the cranking battery. Is a possible solution then to swap this 30A feed over to your aux battery if running a dual system? After all this is what people do with 12v sockets which feed on board fridges etc and 30A should power just about any mobile fridge I know of.

I plan to use the ignition feed (12v+ with ignition) as the connection to a Redarc 12v 25A dc dc charger as the indication that the ignition is on (alternator running) but the charging current will be delivered via this battery feed pin (30A) Has anyone else fitted anything like this system and got away without stripping out the 12S socket.


All help or comments more than welcome.

If you find and adapter from the 12s to Anderson Let me know! I am picking up a camper today and whilst it has an inverter etc for charging the dual batteries in the camper I want to charge on the run.

[sheerluck]

If you find and adapter from the 12s to Anderson Let me know! I am picking up a camper today and whilst it has an inverter etc for charging the dual batteries in the camper I want to charge on the run.

Something like this: DISCO3 Shop (http://disco3.co.uk/shop/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=45)

[Scary]

I have lost it now, but where can I buy the 12s plug from? Landrover or elsewhere?

[murray073]

Landrover was the only place I could get it from.

Cheers , Murray

[phl]

Get the 12S from eBay or similar; total cost for me was $30, but I did use the other end of the extension cable for solar charging.

My write up is here (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/1845181-post10.html).

[Scary]

out of interest I just spoke to Southern Landrover here in Perth and they have 12s to Anderson plug leads in stock for $30.

I will confirm once I pick up.

[NavyDiver]

The traxide system uses 13.5m wire D4 Dual Battery Kit 2 (http://www.traxide.com.au/D3_4_Index/D4_Kit3.html) to the andeson plug.

My LED light bar mounted on my roof rack was wired with a 2 metre 5mm wire, The fuse melted after a long 7 hour night run. I viewed it as very lucky my car did not burn:(.

The my nice autolectricans 5mm wire was visually much heavier diameter copper core than the "5mm" wire orgionally installed by someone else for my light.

Our D3s are about 4 meters to the tow point from the battery, our trailer or mine has the battery 7 meters further back. I would double check any advice if not using a product with a guarantee it will not burn my car. I am not sure if the white plug is enough. I know it was not enough for me.


Handy Hints – REDARC Electronics (http://www.redarc.com.au/handy-hints/calculator/voltage_drop_calculator/) or Voltage Drop Calculator (http://www.supercircuits.com/resources/tools/voltage-drop-calculator)
are fun to play with :D

[Muddy Diver]

If you find and adapter from the 12s to Anderson Let me know! I am picking up a camper today and whilst it has an inverter etc for charging the dual batteries in the camper I want to charge on the run.

Scary, if your Camper has an inverter fitted, this is not going to be much use charging your camper battery as the inverter is supplied BY your CT battery and converts battery DC to AC so that you can run 240V domestic appliances (depending on inverter size and type). If you are saying that the inverter is supplied by the Cars 12V output and a 240V/ 12V battery charger is fitted on the CT to charge on the run then this may work but I am not sure of how long this will take to charge your CT Battery and it isnt the normal set up to my knowledge.

As regards the adaptor I cant even find a plug supplier in oz! According to an Auto Electrician I spoke to yesterday, the wiring has to be rated at a minimum of 10% above the fuse rating, so it looks as though the 12V battery +ve wiring in my LR4 is rated at 33A which should be more than enough to run my Redarc 1225 charger. Although it is rated at 25A my battery should draw nowhere near that.

I'm still waiting for a response from Landrover regarding the OEM wiring suitability, the (non OEM) auto electrician yesterday said that it should be fine but then went on to say that I should add Anderson plugs front and rear so could have been upselling?!

[Muddy Diver]

The traxide system uses 13.5m wire D4 Dual Battery Kit 2 (http://www.traxide.com.au/D3_4_Index/D4_Kit3.html) to the andeson plug.

My LED light bar mounted on my roof rack was wired with a 2 metre 5mm wire, The fuse melted after a long 7 hour night run. I viewed it as very lucky my car did not burn:(.

The my nice autolectricans 5mm wire was visually much heavier diameter copper core than the "5mm" wire orgionally installed by someone else for my light.

Our D3s are about 4 meters to the tow point from the battery, our trailer or mine has the battery 7 meters further back. I would double check any advice if not using a product with a guarantee it will not burn my car. I am not sure if the white plug is enough. I know it was not enough for me.


Handy Hints – REDARC Electronics (http://www.redarc.com.au/handy-hints/calculator/voltage_drop_calculator/) or Voltage Drop Calculator (http://www.supercircuits.com/resources/tools/voltage-drop-calculator)
are fun to play with :D
This is one of the most useful responses i have seen Weakestlink, so forgive me for probing a bit more. Many peopole here are talking about placing the loads onto the ignition pin of the 12S socket, was that the case for you? and what size fuse blew, was it the cars 15A or 30A or was it an in line fuse? Sorry for asking but I am trying hard to determine whether peo-le are wiring to the incorrect circuits for the size of their loads as this is not made clear within the stories. the 30A Battery Positive pin should be wred with 33A Cable to the socket and is fused at 30A obviously. I think that people are not connecteing to this supply for fear of deadening their cranking battery. The answer is a low volts isolator to switch off the load when the battery terminal volts drop to a level which will still allow a start to be made.

[Muddy Diver]

Get the 12S from eBay or similar; total cost for me was $30, but I did use the other end of the extension cable for solar charging.

My write up is here (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/1845181-post10.html).

This is helpful PHL thanks. I see that you have connected to the 12V Battery Positive as I plan to. What is the maximum current draw of your CTEK charger? Have you used it yet and was all OK? Thanks again.

[Muddy Diver]

Landrover was the only place I could get it from.

Cheers , Murray

Murray, what did you use it for and is it OK? Do you know what current you draw from the vehicle on the battery positive? Thanks, Barry

[Muddy Diver]

out of interest I just spoke to Southern Landrover here in Perth and they have 12s to Anderson plug leads in stock for $30.

I will confirm once I pick up.

Scary, I just called them to ask what they are rated at but they said they only had the 12S sockets and that you can wire up anything you like to them including an anderson Plug. The only problem is that you must still be aware of the rating of the vehicle cabling. A 12S to 50A anderson plug doesnt mean you can run a 50A load off the vehicle. :eek: It might be best to pick a plug equal to or lower than the the vehicles 30A rated supply and then ensure that it is wored so as to connect only to the battery positive and not the ignition positive as this is only 15A (at least on LR4's)

[NavyDiver]

This is one of the most useful responses i have seen Weakestlink, so forgive me for probing a bit more. Many peopole here are talking about placing the loads onto the ignition pin of the 12S socket, was that the case for you? and what size fuse blew, was it the cars 15A or 30A or was it an in line fuse? Sorry for asking but I am trying hard to determine whether peo-le are wiring to the incorrect circuits for the size of their loads as this is not made clear within the stories. the 30A Battery Positive pin should be wred with 33A Cable to the socket and is fused at 30A obviously. I think that people are not connecteing to this supply for fear of deadening their cranking battery. The answer is a low volts isolator to switch off the load when the battery terminal volts drop to a level which will still allow a start to be made.

I had a 2 new heavy wire lines run and cut the white plug off and terminated the wires to my anderson plug. 40amp Inline fuse very close the the dual battery. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/417.jpg

(The LED light bar blew/melted a 15 then a 20am fuse before I replaced the wire to it)

RE a comment "a four inch nail is not needed" where a tack would work - conversely long runs cause voltage drop and importantly having enough or over capacity which will not ever hurt except your wallet perhaps. How much is needed to run a fridge, charge a battery and possibly charge via an inverter bits like laptops, camera and similar while driving is not an equation best left for chance. My fridge works fine when I load it fully with cold stuff in low temperatures and it will not use a lot of power to stay cold. Fill it with warm meat, fish or perhaps a case of beer up north and I assume it will be drawing a lot more power for a fair while to get and keep the temperature down. What we use, where we are and where we are going all seem to have an impact on this issue. None of us need 4wd or a snorkel, bull bar or dual batteries all of the time. When we use or need the normally unused bit it is of course when we are having the most fun. Not sure if the existing wire could flatten a battery or worse cause a fire. Happily I will not find that out myself.

voltages and drop in mine at the anderson plug (with engine off)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/417.jpg

At the dual deep cycle battery
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/417.jpg
On the main cranking battery (under a year old)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/417.jpg

The cable to my camping trailer was not here to test today sorry.

[Scary]

Scary, if your Camper has an inverter fitted, this is not going to be much use charging your camper battery as the inverter is supplied BY your CT battery and converts battery DC to AC so that you can run 240V domestic appliances (depending on inverter size and type). If you are saying that the inverter is supplied by the Cars 12V output and a 240V/ 12V battery charger is fitted on the CT to charge on the run then this may work but I am not sure of how long this will take to charge your CT Battery and it isnt the normal set up to my knowledge.

As regards the adaptor I cant even find a plug supplier in oz! According to an Auto Electrician I spoke to yesterday, the wiring has to be rated at a minimum of 10% above the fuse rating, so it looks as though the 12V battery +ve wiring in my LR4 is rated at 33A which should be more than enough to run my Redarc 1225 charger. Although it is rated at 25A my battery should draw nowhere near that.

I'm still waiting for a response from Landrover regarding the OEM wiring suitability, the (non OEM) auto electrician yesterday said that it should be fine but then went on to say that I should add Anderson plugs front and rear so could have been upselling?!

ok so I may be way off track her but my thought was to run power from the car via the 12s and anderson plug that connects to the battery in the trailer so while we are connected the fridge etc is essentially running off the car battery/alternator and I was going to go with the ignition only pin out on the 12s connection.

Am I wrong in thinking that essentially the alternator will provide charge down the line to the batteries in the camper trailer?

Yes the inverter is from the batteries in the camper to provide 240 out.

The whole point for me is to have the fridge running on the car power while travelling but not taking the fridge out of the camper. When onsite the camper and all the bits will run on batteries and solar.

Correct me if I'm wrong as I don't feel like blowing anything up this week ;)

[Muddy Diver]

ok so I may be way off track her but my thought was to run power from the car via the 12s and anderson plug that connects to the battery in the trailer so while we are connected the fridge etc is essentially running off the car battery/alternator and I was going to go with the ignition only pin out on the 12s connection.

Am I wrong in thinking that essentially the alternator will provide charge down the line to the batteries in the camper trailer?

Yes the inverter is from the batteries in the camper to provide 240 out.

The whole point for me is to have the fridge running on the car power while travelling but not taking the fridge out of the camper. When onsite the camper and all the bits will run on batteries and solar.

Correct me if I'm wrong as I don't feel like blowing anything up this week ;)

Scary. Your idea is sound but a few checks of current draw will prevent overheating anything. Initially i'm thinking that a cold fridge and a discharged battery on your camper, could draw more than the 15A available on the ignition circuit. This, i believe, is the reason why many complain that the electrics of the 12s socket are inadequate. (Although I stand to be corrected when my own set up causes a melt down). The 12S pin has a permanent 12 V pin but using this while the alternator is not running could drain the cranking battery so an isolator could be used to switch off the trailer should the battery voltage fall to a certain level. It will then switch the power back through to the trailer when the alternator is running again. 30A should be more than enough for a fridge and some battery charging. Just as a cautionary check though,and again more expert people might correct me, but if your camper batteries are AGM Deep Cycle types which are poular for this type of use, then you may not want the two batteries in parallel (connected together) and charged by the same alternator as I believe that the AGM will not like the higher charging rates of the normal cranking battery types. If this is the case and you don't mind wrecking the AGM's fine but to prolong their life (and they aren't cheap) I would suggest a 12v/12v charger be considered. Hope this helps.

[Muddy Diver]

I had a 2 new heavy wire lines run and cut the white plug off and terminated the wires to my anderson plug. 40amp Inline fuse very close the the dual battery. https://www.dropbox.com/s/8xuh1llxu0sz6jo/20130521_132706.jpg

(The LED light bar blew/melted a 15 then a 20am fuse before I replaced the wire to it)

RE a comment "a four inch nail is not needed" where a tack would work - conversely long runs cause voltage drop and importantly having enough or over capacity which will not ever hurt except your wallet perhaps. How much is needed to run a fridge, charge a battery and possibly charge via an inverter bits like laptops, camera and similar while driving is not an equation best left for chance. My fridge works fine when I load it fully with cold stuff in low temperatures and it will not use a lot of power to stay cold. Fill it with warm meat, fish or perhaps a case of beer up north and I assume it will be drawing a lot more power for a fair while to get and keep the temperature down. What we use, where we are and where we are going all seem to have an impact on this issue. None of us need 4wd or a snorkel, bull bar or dual batteries all of the time. When we use or need the normally unused bit it is of course when we are having the most fun. Not sure if the existing wire could flatten a battery or worse cause a fire. Happily I will not find that out myself.

voltages and drop in mine at the anderson plug (with engine off)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2635xdxc5tbw8xj/20130521_135139.jpg

At the dual deep cycle battery
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uw7hl2pbfeubxog/20130521_135333.jpg
On the main cranking battery (under a year old)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nold912f1m9t1m9/20130521_135447.jpg

The cable to my camping trailer was not here to test today sorry.

Thanks Weakest link.

Forgive me, my comment about replacing a fuse with a 6 inch nail because it keeps blowing was directed not at your led lights but at the owner of the vehicle who suffered socket damage after running his fridge.I don't want to become a bore or labour my point already made but when a socket, designed for the purpose, overheats then it is wise to check out why rather than beef up the wiring else a fire in the trailer could occur. Anyhooo.

Thanks for your information and wow did you go out especially to take the photos and do the tests. Thanks! you seem to show a 0.2V drop at the cranking battery then. I guess you are showing that nice big cable is better than thin which you wont find me disputing. Thicker the better. so long as the circuit is fused for the load. For example, you can have 50A cable to supply 12V at 7M distance but if it's to run a fridge of 12A then a 15A fuse should be fitted. I'm fine with this. Again, i dont wish to be correcting your thoughts on this but would like to share a thought with you regarding your led fault. Without "being there" I would bet a squillion that the cable size was not the problem. If you will allow me I'll explain.

Resistance in a circuit limits the flow of current. Higher resistance = less current. Thinner cable offers greater circuit resistance not less. You get higher current in lower resistance circuits (try placing a low resistance spanner across the terminals of your battery (no...don't) Fitting thinner wire would have resulted in dimmer lights as more of the available 12 volts would be dropped across the wire leaving less to light the led's. BUt even this over 2m would be minimal (the difference between 5 sqmm and say 2 sqmm is only 0.1 of a volt, hardly noticeable at the light output) But the effect of the increased circuit resistance of the thiner wire would be to "resist" current flow in the circuit, not increase it. I think that perhaps there was a short to earth on your thinner wire circuit which was cleared by rewiring.

I am wiring a camper trailer at this moment and have decided on 50A cable to go to a box to reduce volt drop but which will have a 15A circuit breaker installed as that's just more than my calculated current draw. Safe

[NavyDiver]

Thanks Weakest link.

Forgive me, my comment about replacing a fuse with a 6 inch nail because it keeps blowing was directed not at your led lights but at the owner of the vehicle who suffered socket damage after running his fridge.I don't want to become a bore or labour my point already made but when a socket, designed for the purpose, overheats then it is wise to check out why rather than beef up the wiring else a fire in the trailer could occur. Anyhooo.

Thanks for your information and wow did you go out especially to take the photos and do the tests. Thanks! you seem to show a 0.2V drop at the cranking battery then. I guess you are showing that nice big cable is better than thin which you wont find me disputing. Thicker the better. so long as the circuit is fused for the load. For example, you can have 50A cable to supply 12V at 7M distance but if it's to run a fridge of 12A then a 15A fuse should be fitted. I'm fine with this. Again, i dont wish to be correcting your thoughts on this but would like to share a thought with you regarding your led fault. Without "being there" I would bet a squillion that the cable size was not the problem. If you will allow me I'll explain.

Resistance in a circuit limits the flow of current. Higher resistance = less current. Thinner cable offers greater circuit resistance not less. You get higher current in lower resistance circuits (try placing a low resistance spanner across the terminals of your battery (no...don't) Fitting thinner wire would have resulted in dimmer lights as more of the available 12 volts would be dropped across the wire leaving less to light the led's. BUt even this over 2m would be minimal (the difference between 5 sqmm and say 2 sqmm is only 0.1 of a volt, hardly noticeable at the light output) But the effect of the increased circuit resistance of the thiner wire would be to "resist" current flow in the circuit, not increase it. I think that perhaps there was a short to earth on your thinner wire circuit which was cleared by rewiring.

I am wiring a camper trailer at this moment and have decided on 50A cable to go to a box to reduce volt drop but which will have a 15A circuit breaker installed as that's just more than my calculated current draw. Safe

:) crack at nails was off target sorry and no apology needed. The biggest nail I have is myself :D
The minor voltage difference is the battery types, newer cranking battery is the lower but that is to do with the deep cycle battery I assume.
I will put the voltage thingy on another D3 or D4 in the white plug to see and will post it. Several pull up in front of my business at times. I have fun chatting not meaning to offend and refuse to be offended by almost any comment. I am always right as are people who disagree with me:D Every question on the forum often puts me off tangent looking at a perspective which is not alway suitable for others. 4wd tv on C31 tonight had a little on power draw YOUR4X4 (http://www.your4x4.com.au/) I was working when taking the voltages and while half looking at 4wd tv.

Look forward to seeing your project. Have fun and keep us in the loop where your trailer gets towed too.

[phl]

This is helpful PHL thanks. I see that you have connected to the 12V Battery Positive as I plan to. What is the maximum current draw of your CTEK charger? Have you used it yet and was all OK? Thanks again.

So far I've connected the CTEK (5A) and solar panels (Theoretical max 10A, but max I've seen is 8A). In theory it should be good to 25A, as that's what it's fused for.

I'm contemplating getting a CTEK to cig lighter socket attachment, so I can keep the doors closed, and still get external power.

[phl]

if your camper batteries are AGM Deep Cycle types which are poular for this type of use, then you may not want the two batteries in parallel (connected together) and charged by the same alternator as I believe that the AGM will not like the higher charging rates of the normal cranking battery types

FWIW, my D4 (current MY13) has an AGM cranking battery.

I gather from Tim that the AGM can take a higher charging rate via a higher voltage. The CTEK also has a higher voltage for AGM batteries, or normal wet cells in cold temperatures.

[murray073]

Barry, sorry for taking a while to get back, I've been on night shift. I ran the 30a circuit through a relay that is then switched by the 15 a circuit. That way I use the heavier circuit only when the ignition is on to prevent draining the cars battery when I'm not driving. I am only powering a 50 lt Chescold 3 way fridge/freezer in an off road camper. I cool it down with 240 before we leave & then use gas when camping. I'm not sure what it draws but have never had a problem keeping it cool (close to freezing) & always checked the wiring after long drives & there was never any increase in temp or other signs of overheating.

Cheers, Murray

[Muddy Diver]

So far I've connected the CTEK (5A) and solar panels (Theoretical max 10A, but max I've seen is 8A). In theory it should be good to 25A, as that's what it's fused for.

I'm contemplating getting a CTEK to cig lighter socket attachment, so I can keep the doors closed, and still get external power.

Phl. Good to hear someone getting a reasonable output from their solar panels. Auto tech I spoke to this week said the max he ever got was 0.25A and rubbished them! I bought the higher rated redarc charger as it included a regulator for solar but it just taken me over the 30A battery positive cct as it peaks at 35. Like you I get everything cold first so the fridge has no hard work ahead of it whie towing. Same with CT battery, always in tip top condition before we tow away. However afer the final camp night they will have discharged and with no solar top up I have to take this journey into account as a high charge one.

[Muddy Diver]

FWIW, my D4 (current MY13) has an AGM cranking battery.

I gather from Tim that the AGM can take a higher charging rate via a higher voltage. The CTEK also has a higher voltage for AGM batteries, or normal wet cells in cold temperatures.

I just checked my D4 My13 - AGM too. I never knew these were used for cranking batteries, always thought they suffered when deliveing such high power. Must have sorted it out then. Great batteries!

[Muddy Diver]

:) crack at nails was off target sorry and no apology needed. The biggest nail I have is myself :D
The minor voltage difference is the battery types, newer cranking battery is the lower but that is to do with the deep cycle battery I assume.
I will put the voltage thingy on another D3 or D4 in the white plug to see and will post it. Several pull up in front of my business at times. I have fun chatting not meaning to offend and refuse to be offended by almost any comment. I am always right as are people who disagree with me:D Every question on the forum often puts me off tangent looking at a perspective which is not alway suitable for others. 4wd tv on C31 tonight had a little on power draw YOUR4X4 (http://www.your4x4.com.au/) I was working when taking the voltages and while half looking at 4wd tv.

Look forward to seeing your project. Have fun and keep us in the loop where your trailer gets towed too.

Thanks weakestlink. Glad you werent offended. I draw a lot of suport from forums such as these and can "give back" on subjects I understand. Some may not agree but that is the fun of forums sometimes.

[Muddy Diver]

So far I've connected the CTEK (5A) and solar panels (Theoretical max 10A, but max I've seen is 8A). In theory it should be good to 25A, as that's what it's fused for.

I'm contemplating getting a CTEK to cig lighter socket attachment, so I can keep the doors closed, and still get external power.

Phl I just noticed that you mention a 25A fuse in your battery positive. I have 30A according to the manual. So you may have a little more than you thought.

[Muddy Diver]

Barry, sorry for taking a while to get back, I've been on night shift. I ran the 30a circuit through a relay that is then switched by the 15 a circuit. That way I use the heavier circuit only when the ignition is on to prevent draining the cars battery when I'm not driving. I am only powering a 50 lt Chescold 3 way fridge/freezer in an off road camper. I cool it down with 240 before we leave & then use gas when camping. I'm not sure what it draws but have never had a problem keeping it cool (close to freezing) & always checked the wiring after long drives & there was never any increase in temp or other signs of overheating.

Cheers, Murray

Cheers Murray. Thats the way to go and is the way I have decided. I think many just wire up to the ign positive (15A) and then blow fuses etc. Unfortunately I fear I may well have to add an anderson plug at the rear with something more than te 30A supply as the redarc charger I have will peak at 35A. Batteres always charged before I leave but will draw current when I depart camp in the morning after a discharge over night. I dont need a 25A charger but it comes with an MPPT for solar input so thought it was the best way. Why don'r redarc put a solar regulator in their smaller chargers:mad:

[Scary]

Barry, sorry for taking a while to get back, I've been on night shift. I ran the 30a circuit through a relay that is then switched by the 15 a circuit. That way I use the heavier circuit only when the ignition is on to prevent draining the cars battery when I'm not driving. I am only powering a 50 lt Chescold 3 way fridge/freezer in an off road camper. I cool it down with 240 before we leave & then use gas when camping. I'm not sure what it draws but have never had a problem keeping it cool (close to freezing) & always checked the wiring after long drives & there was never any increase in temp or other signs of overheating.

Cheers, Murray

Hi Murray,
So i don't get off track here are you saying that you had the white 12s plug wired with the 30amp constant into a relay with the 15amp ign switching the relay? What earth pin did you use?
I then assume you had a + & - coming out of the relay to whatever plug on the camper. Did this run to a charger or direct to the Camper batteries?

[murray073]

Hi Scary, I put the relay in the 30 amp circuit in the wiring in the car, before the 12s plug. I then used the 15 amp ignition switched circuit to switch the relay, which then gave me an ignition controlled 30 amp circuit at the 12s plug. I have a separate 12s male plug on the camper which is wired directly to the fridge in the camper. The earth from the camper through the male 12s plug then connects to the original 30amp pin in the female 12s plug on the car. The camper doesn't have batteries in it, I just use the battery/alternator in the car to keep the fridge cold until I put it on gas when stopped overnight.

Hope I explained it clearly.

Cheers, Murray

[Ashes]

Guys, this is a great conversation and I'd really love to hear what LR Australia advise on the use of the 12s socket.

What is confusing me most of all is that I haven't seen much discussed about this in the past and it would seem like a obvious solution to charging a camper battery or running a fridge on the move. I've read heaps of articles describing an isolator on 6b&s wired to a rear Anderson plug which certainly allows for high amps.

The wiring in of a relay sounds ideal, elegant and simple. This pretty much guarantees you can't drain the cranking battery if you leave the trailer connected for an extended stop and have a near flat camper battery.

I have a dual battery setup with an isolator that works flawlessly but now am looking to be able to charge a 3rd battery in my camper trailer. My need is to be able to charge/top up my 130ah camper battery while on the move or to run the car to give the battery a charge when stopped away from 240v for extended periods of time.

If it is viable to use the 12s socket for this, it would be by far the cheapest and simplest solution to providing charging power to the camper.

The questions I would have are
- even though the 12s pin (pin 4?) may be 30A fused, are we certain the wiring handles at least 30A? Surely it should...
- what sort of Amps would a 50% flat 130ah AGM battery in a camper draw from a D3 alternator/cranking battery. Could it be more than 30A?
- I assume you wouldn't need any sort of regulator/charger in the circuit to charge the camper battery as the alternator and main battery are being used to deliver the 12v to the pin.

[phl]

Phl. Good to hear someone getting a reasonable output from their solar panels.

Using an MPPT rather than a regular regulator; makes a difference. Don't forget that was also the max output I'm looking at, as that's what's likely to blow the fuse.

[phl]

Phl I just noticed that you mention a 25A fuse in your battery positive. I have 30A according to the manual. So you may have a little more than you thought.

When I built my charging setup, I hadn't taken delivery of my D4 yet, so was asking others. Then always assume the worst, to give me maximum safety margin.

BTW, WRT AGM cranking battery, the Optima Redtops are AGM as well, and they are specified as cranking battery, and have been out for years.

[Muddy Diver]

Guys, this is a great conversation and I'd really love to hear what LR Australia advise on the use of the 12s socket.

What is confusing me most of all is that I haven't seen much discussed about this in the past and it would seem like a obvious solution to charging a camper battery or running a fridge on the move. I've read heaps of articles describing an isolator on 6b&s wired to a rear Anderson plug which certainly allows for high amps.

The wiring in of a relay sounds ideal, elegant and simple. This pretty much guarantees you can't drain the cranking battery if you leave the trailer connected for an extended stop and have a near flat camper battery.

I have a dual battery setup with an isolator that works flawlessly but now am looking to be able to charge a 3rd battery in my camper trailer. My need is to be able to charge/top up my 130ah camper battery while on the move or to run the car to give the battery a charge when stopped away from 240v for extended periods of time.

If it is viable to use the 12s socket for this, it would be by far the cheapest and simplest solution to providing charging power to the camper.

The questions I would have are
- even though the 12s pin (pin 4?) may be 30A fused, are we certain the wiring handles at least 30A? Surely it should...
- what sort of Amps would a 50% flat 130ah AGM battery in a camper draw from a D3 alternator/cranking battery. Could it be more than 30A?
- I assume you wouldn't need any sort of regulator/charger in the circuit to charge the camper battery as the alternator and main battery are being used to deliver the 12v to the pin.


Ashes I'll answer what I know to be correct and leave others to comment on the stuff I am unsure of.

In any electrical circuit the wiring must be rated higher than the fuse as the fuse should always be the weakest link. I have heard (but have not had it confirmed) that wiring is typically a minimimum of 10% above the fuse rating. Where the thinner UK wires will take effect though is on charging your batteries from your car alternator. The thickness of the wiring will drop volts as the pressure of electrons proves too much for the thinner gauge. This is the main reason why people wire their set ups in big heavy gauge cable. But somrthing like the Redarc charger is smart enough to recognise that there is a volt drop and steps up the voltage from the plug in the car to a full charging voltage which then compensates. This means that your CT battery will always achieve full charge. The Redarcs (and other smart DCDC chargers) also have the solenoid built in to isolate the Camper battery from the car battery when the engine is stopped. It achieves this via a blue connection (redarc) which goes to the ign positive circuit in the 12s socket to tell it when to switch on and when to switch off.

While you don't need a reguator in the alternator charging circuit, if you want to take volt drops out of the equation then you do need to wire in heavy gauge or use a smart charger which compensates.

I believe that the currebnt draw during charging is aquestion related to what type of charger you have. I know that for my 100A/hr AGM Deep cycle when being charged from my home 7stage charger, that I select an 8 Amp output. With DC DC chargers I believe that this is not possible and have contacted Redarc to discover whether my charger will draw more than the 30Amps and wil feed back this info to the forum when I receive an answer.

[Ashes]

In this case my charger would be my car alternator. So I'm really trying to confirm factually if it is possible to use the 12s socket to charge directly a 130ah AGM in a camper trailer.

[Muddy Diver]

In this case my charger would be my car alternator. So I'm really trying to confirm factually if it is possible to use the 12s socket to charge directly a 130ah AGM in a camper trailer.

It is possible of course Ashes but you need to learn what your current draw is likely to be before making the decision to go through the 12S socket. If more than 30A then no. If less then yes. Hopefully I helped answer your other q's

[Muddy Diver]

In addition. My belief (open to disagreement here) is that charging via an alternator is a fixed voltage charge. This means that the current is not limited or controlled by any devices and at say 13.8V or whatever the alternator gives the battery the current will depend upon the level of discharge. So heavily discharged batteries will take much more current than Lightly discharged batteries. Unfortunately I cant tell you how much but maybe others will help.

There is an issue with forcing batteries to take a charge as opposed to controlling with a battery charger. When the battery takes a large amount of current it gets hot. When a battery gets hot it is prone to damage or at the very least it's life is shortened but also, the heat increases the batteries own internal resistance. (That is resistance to current) so the current in the charging supply is reduced leaving your battery never to achieve a full charge. Multi- stage (smart) chargers (despite what others may say on here) charge in stages to keep your battery cooler during charging, therefore reducing the increase in Internal Resistance and will achieve a full charge. I am aware theat AGM batteries have a much lower internal resistance to normal wet types band this of course prevent them getting so hot during charging. Once fully charged they will switch into a float mode and can constantly feed the battery to keep it charged and in prime condition. There is a large advantage in charging batteries in a controlled way (unless you need them charged quick that is) but if like me you have your discharges calculated to only 50% charge and have sufficient means to achieve a charge back during daylight hours (Solar) then you are better off charging with a charger as opposed to an uncontrolled charging current from your alternator. Just think that you don't ever need to check battery charge levels before hooking up or in transit!

[Ashes]

Yep agree. I use a multistage 240v 7A Ctek to charge the camper battery when mains is available. I'm now looking at options for recharging when off the grid for when I'm stationary and topping up the battery when touring.

For the record I'm dubious that the 12s socket and wiring has the capacity to sustain charging amps to a heavily discharged camper battery but it is there as an option and there seems to be little information available as to its real world capability on a D3/D4.
I can also understand how it is difficult to specify what can be done with it but surely some facts exist on volt/amp rating of the wiring to the socket.

[Muddy Diver]

Ashes

12V 30A Thats the rating. Unquestionable. The question is what will you pull through it?

[Ashes]

That is definitely the key question. At the moment it would need to potentially handle charging needs of a flat 130ah AGM battery. In future that may well turn into 2 x 130ah batteries or more. These things tend to happen with upgrades and as needs change..

I don't know enough about the D3 electrics to know if the 12s circuitry will allow more than 30amps to be drawn through it. Obviously the fuse will do its job if you exceed 30amps. Does the electrics have some smarts in it to limit current draw on that circuit even if a camper battery is demanding more than 30amps of charge.

Given that pretty much every rear Anderson solution uses 6b&s connected to a main or aux battery in the car and a 50amp rear plug to hook to the camper battery this suggests to me that you would not normally exceed a 50amp draw for even a large battery bank in the camper and I sure there are guys out there running 200-300+ah battery systems. Is the max amps being supplied to the rear more governed by the capacity of the alternator regardless of the demands being placed on it by flat batteries? What would a standard D3 alternator be able to supply? I'm guessing in practical terms that it is less than 50amps or we would hear lots of stories about fuses or circuit breakers continually tripping when charging flat camper batteries.

[Muddy Diver]

I've just come off the phone with Redarc and the information I have is that my wiring must be able to sustain the max rated outout of my charger.
The charger will not exceed its rated output and so mine, even if connected to a flat 100A/hr battery, will run at a constant 25-26Amps and no more. I am therefore going to go with a 12S plug battery Positive (30A) as opposed to re re running cables and Anderson plugs/sockets.

I can't help you with your question though Ashes. If you are proposing to charge these batteries directly from your alternator I would imagine that the charging current might be much larger than the LR wiring is designed for and think that a larger cable would be required, possibly even larger than 50A.

It is your batteries which will demand the current from your alternator. As I mentioned before, the alternator uses a "fixed Voltage" charging method which essentially means the batteries take whatever current they need during the charge. You will need to be careful here as too much and they can lose longevity and the price for two new 130's isnt low. A charger will charge your batteries in a more controlled manner (boost when needed) and float them when charged, condition them, will achieve a 100 % charge as opposed to around 90% from your alternator and will prevent excessive current load on your on vehicle wiring and perhaps allow the use of the 12S socket with no mods.

[Ashes]

Thanks for the info. Was hoping to avoid having an extra charger but there is some merit to installing something like a Ctek d250s. This hopefully would allow me to charge at up to 20amps from the 12s socket and also while camped could take a feed from solar panels in the future.

[Muddy Diver]

Thanks for the info. Was hoping to avoid having an extra charger but there is some merit to installing something like a Ctek d250s. This hopefully would allow me to charge at up to 20amps from the 12s socket and also while camped could take a feed from solar panels in the future.

Yep thats the advantage of these chargers, solar during the day and you can save money on the panel because the chargers also have their own solar regulator. (Although I am considering a regulated panel from which I can take my own unregulated supply so that it is useful for any others in our party or indeed for our own car battery should the worst happen. I have calculated worst case scenario (Winter, longer nights with low light during the shorter day) that I will have to make up 41 Amps depleted from my battery by running my fridge plus lighting and small tv, (60% charged) With a bright sunny day I should get 7Amps/hr our of the 120W solar panel which should more than replenish my battery fully each day. I think that during winter the fridge will be working a lot less than this so am comfortable that I am on the safe side.;)

[TerryO]

This topic has been moved from the D3/4/RRs section as it is no longer being discussed and could be of some interest to members in this section.

[Muddy Diver]

But dont the latest on board chargers negate the need for big heavy cabling? and isnt the battery feed fused at 30A? Its the ignition wire thats fused at 15A and this isued only to send a signal to the onboard charger to apply charging current to the trailer battery. The actual charging current should be connected to the pin for battery feed whicj on my disco4 is rated at 30A more than sufficient for battery charging. Am I mistaking something here because everyone is ripping out this socket in favour of a much less capable Anderson plug and perhaos they don't need to?


I need to correct my comment above.


I have found an error in the manual for the LR4. Mine states that the permanent 12V Positive (battery feed) at the 12s socket is 30A (hence my 25A charger should be well matched). When I blew my first fuse I discovered that a 15A fuse was fitted and that the fuse "map" on the back of the fusebox cover states that it was 15A. I have been to Landrover to check whether the wiring is rated at 15A or 30A (if 30A I could refuse to 30A) but they have confirmed that it wired to 15A only). So like many others I am forced to run some cable and fit an Anderson plug in order to power my charger.