Pto winch

[RGD129]

Hi all

Has anyone had a maxi drive pto drive for there winch?im thinking of getting a pto winch for my county but I don't know if I should buy a maxi drive chain drive pto or try to get a army style gear driven which drive.is one better/stronger/ faster then the other?

If anyone has had any experience with either winch it would be great to get your opinion and any information.

Regards brett

[isuzutoo-eh]

The army style gear driven type with built in clutch is better as it doesn't rely on shear pins for overload protection. However, they are soooo much harder to come across, and thus pricier. Would be easier buying one with vehicle attached at the auctions...
I take it your County has a 4 speed gearbox? The army type won't fit the transfer on a 5 speed.

[RGD129]

At the moment I have a chassis with a motor in it and haven't yet decided on which gearbox to run.i went to the army auction and the cheapest 110 with a winch, that had been rolled went for over 2600.i like the sound of the inbuilt clutch in the army pto but do they still have the brass bolt where the driveshaft bolts to the winch like the maxi drive unit?

How do the clutches work on the army style ones?who built the army pto?

Regards Brett

[Freestyler]

Hi Brett, I had a Thomas PTO on one of my previous Landies which was 4speed it was the one on the back of the gearbox, I broke the rope with it and the shear pin didn't. ( rope was old ) but it is 1000% better than an electric. I currently have a thomas electric on my county now, have got the pto fot the 5 speed just need some time to put it on. They take a bit more time to put on but well worth it. The 5 speed pto are alot harder to find though I just happened to be in the right place at the right time. With the gearbox if you are putting a V8 in it I would go the LT85 but Isuzu would go LT95 as the Isuzu was know to kill the LT85 but was fine behind the V8. I have a worked 4.4 EFI Leyland V8 in mine and Dad has a works 4.6 Rover V8 in his and they take the horsepower of those engine well. Tim

[weeds]

re: your comment about one being faster than the other.......they are both controlled by what gear you select and what RMP the motor is running at. i am unsure of the diferances in gear ratios but that aside they would both winch at the same speed

i don't recall seeing a shear pin on the military...........many atime the clutch kicked and stopped me wincing which was annoying.....fixed by putting the t-case into low so that the tyres spinning would reduce the load which would allow the winch to start operating

i have a PTO fitted to my five speed on a 95 defender.......some say they are useless if your motor is not running, i sometimes wonder how long an electric will run without the alternator.......the good part about my PTO is you can operate without the motor i.e. with a crank handle

i have only used mine twice.....a self recovery out of a creek bed and to assist two cars over a bump on a hill climb

what i like is the control over the winching speed

good luck in finding a unit

have you consider hydraulic PTO that M R Automotive ....this would be my choice if i didn't have the PTO, the only downside the the hydraulic oil tank

[RGD129]

Thank you for the information, I now have no worries about the pto handling the torque. I have an Isuzu but plan to put the lt85 behind it as I have plans for a msa gearbox later down the line.

I'm trying to set up my county so that if there is electrical failure I can still get home without the need for electricity, so the pto winch is idea.i have thought about the hyd set up from mr auto but I'm trying to build my county on the kis principal (keep it simple) and the hyd set up with valves, compensator and hyd tank is a bit complicated/ expencive for the amount of times I'm going to use it.

I've put an ad in the wanted section but no luck yet?

Could you please tell me more about your crank handle for you pto?where did it attach? Which type of pto did you have?

Regards brett

[weeds]

mine is a thomas.......9000 i think

you can see the crank handle thing poking out under the cradle.........i must get around to making a crank handle

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/972.jpg

[roverrescue]

to be honest if you are trying to KIS
-put in the MSA from the outset and have the best gearing for the ZU
-and then plonk in a 12ooolb sparkie winch with two batts in parrallel.
Job done.

S

[RGD129]

Do all Thomas winches have the hand crank or was it an opt?

I don't understand how the sparkie winch would be any simpler in operation or reliability then a pto winch'the pto is variable speed and only requires the engine to be running to operate or a hand crank lever.it only take one wire to break or not earth properly and the sparks stop.

How far could you winch out of a bog with two batteries and no alternator?

Regards brett

[weeds]

I have never seen another with crank handle provision......military ones don't have this

[rar110]

Mine has capacity to receive crank handle.

[Bearman]

Hand crank option was available for extra cost on the Thomas 8000ld winches in the early 80's. I know because I bought one with it. I thought it was only on the electric ones but is possible you could get it on the pto one. Thankfully never had to use it, hand crank that is.:D

[clive22]

Hi

I've a Thomas PTO winch hooked up to an LT85 5 speed. I have the crank handle it fits over the shaft which runs through the worm gear box under the winch.

If you have this you should be able to fit an crank handle. I have used, its easier to turn being a worm gear drive, though its as slow well as a worm, I'd get one for the extra security.

You could add a socket to a convert fast handle on a socket set too I'd say, carefully grinding some two divets on the end of a socket that fits over the shaft. Then attach the fast handle to that


Clive

[weeds]

Hi

I've a Thomas PTO winch hooked up to an LT85 5 speed. I have the crank handle it fits over the shaft which runs through the worm gear box under the winch.

If you have this you should be able to fit an crank handle. I have used, its easier to turn being a worm gear drive, though its as slow well as a worm, I'd get one for the extra security.

You could add a socket to a convert fast handle on a socket set too I'd say, carefully grinding some two divets on the end of a socket that fits over the shaft. Then attach the fast handle to that


Clive

or maybe a cordless drill

[Blknight.aus]

the winch safety for the perentie PTO is a ball and spring loaded ball ratchet torque limiter.

What it does


If these loads are exceed, the spring loaded ball ratched is activated separating the drive line from the winch. Once the excess load is removed, the torque limiter resets itself and winching can resume

the drive plate is has a series of "dimples" drilled into it and the driven plate has a series of springs that push balls into these dimples. When the amount of torque from drive line is too high and the winch is over loaded the balls overcome the spring pressure pushing them into the "dimples" and the balls ride up into the driven plate and the drive plate rotates and will continue to do so untill either the load is reduced OR the torque applied is reduced.

Continued operation of the mechanism in a slip condition causes the balls to wear grooves into the dimples making it easier for them to ride out lowering the slip point.

As the winch is a Worm drive configuration failure of the clutch will not cause loss of control of the load.

Quoted from the 102 and expanded on in Layman friendly Farey speak.

[roverrescue]

I don't understand how the sparkie winch would be any simpler in operation or reliability then a pto winch'the pto is variable speed and only requires the engine to be running to operate or a hand crank lever.it only take one wire to break or not earth properly and the sparks stop.

How far could you winch out of a bog with two batteries and no alternator?

Sure a PTO is sexy and all and if one fell into my lap I would go to the hassle of fitting up the driveline etc etc etc. BUT they are not easy to find, are slow and a little hasslesome to fit up (just ask Weeds).

5 years ago I plonked a cheapy tigerz 12ooo in the defender bar. Took less than an hour to fit. In those 5 years time it would have winched me or other vehicles hundreds of metres and out of grief too many times to count. Have overhauled it once (pulled down before install to check grease and sealing) and replaced the solenoids once. Never let me down. I call that KIS.

Steve

[clive22]

Hi

Depends what you are doing a PTO winch once set up is a working tool on the car. They almost seem to come form a farm background, working all day, whereas the electric ones are short use only.

Where a PTO is a genuine advantage is on hilly terrain where long hauls need to done and/or a lot of cars reduced pulled through.

I have a PTO, but if just playing around in the mud I'd go electrical next time round.

That said if you have to do a couple of 50m+ hauls up a hill, PTO hand down.

Clive

[weeds]

I don't understand how the sparkie winch would be any simpler in operation or reliability then a pto winch'the pto is variable speed and only requires the engine to be running to operate or a hand crank lever.it only take one wire to break or not earth properly and the sparks stop.

How far could you winch out of a bog with two batteries and no alternator?

Sure a PTO is sexy and all and if one fell into my lap I would go to the hassle of fitting up the driveline etc etc etc. BUT they are not easy to find, are slow and a little hasslesome to fit up (just ask Weeds).

5 years ago I plonked a cheapy tigerz 12ooo in the defender bar. Took less than an hour to fit. In those 5 years time it would have winched me or other vehicles hundreds of metres and out of grief too many times to count. Have overhauled it once (pulled down before install to check grease and sealing) and replaced the solenoids once. Never let me down. I call that KIS.

Steve

lol as steve points outs......i wont be giving my pto up

i have never owned or used an electric winch, i have used PTO's on and off over the last 25 years

just trying to think whats different to an electric

- another place for oil to leak from
- had to manufacture a cradle (nothing off the shelf)
- modify front bar
- had to fit new exhaust due to winch drive shaft
- pretty sure the drive is now the lowest part of the drive train, i could rotate it a bit
- replcing a shear pin would be take some time in the bush.....infact i dont even carry one
- engine has to tbe running

umm not sure about being slower........i must challange a sparky one to a race, i reckon using fifth gear no load i would win, fourth gear with the revs up would also be pretty quick

as said i would swap mine.....because ts different just like the defer its attached to

i agree an electric winch would be easier to install.

[isuzutoo-eh]

Just went and had a look, my Thomas 8000lber has a crank handle attachment too, i'm pleased to see. Seems to be more with than without.

[roverrescue]

Yeah sorry, just re-read my bad writing.
I meant slow and a little hasslesome to fit up as in - your not going to knock it over in an hour on a sunday arvo...

Clive, between that 12ooo Tigerz and an old Worn 9000XP we pulled, the fender with boat, a disco, a tojo with boat and a hilux a heck of a lot further than 50m. More like 300m. Sure it wasnt up a hill but teatree black soil swamp that you sink to the sills in a heartbeat is probably just as sticky as a 30 degree incline.

I know all the theoretical problems of sparkie winches but in the real world they just seem to work. Heck they are just a stinking starter motor and some cogs. Its not like we all race to install hand cranks instead of starter motors "just in case".
Sparkies work and in my opinion that makes em KIS.

Even when solenoids play up with a set of jumper leads you can make a winch do what it is paid to do... unless said winch is in a new hilux that means you can barely access the clutch never mind the motor connections! But I guess all hidden away they look good for the latte set and builders.

Anyway you said KIS, as Kelvin mentioned above. Retrofitting a PTO winch is never simple.

S

[clive22]

Hi

I've no doubt you could pull such and such up so and so with an electric winch. I never said you couldn't. I said relative to a PTO they are inferior. I stand by this and can support it.

The PTO, well mine is anyway, is a driven a 4.2 Litre V8 through via a 5 speed gearbox fully controllable in either direction with the clutch and throttle.

They will outlast and out-pull any conventional electric winch which is usually 12V electric motor and say 50 Amp/Hr battery or two with a duty cycle and recovery time till recharged.

Whether an electric or PTO is for you is your own debate. The question of a lasting pulling power will favor the PTO which is what I said, not that an electric winches are no good they are.

Clive

[roverrescue]

I thought the question was:
"I have a defender, I need a winch, I want to keep it simple..."

If keeping it simple is the priority

-Sparkie-

If you want to winch to timbuktoo then sure go chase a PTO

As I said if a PTO landed in my lap I would definitely go to the trouble of fitting it and it would get a flogging being used too ... but they are not necessarily simple if you dont have one!


S