Puma snorkel warning

[nugge t]

I hope this does not get me in strife with the mods as I have a product for sale in the Verandah but I think that people need to be aware that fitting a snorkel to a Puma does not guarantee an airtight system for deep water crossings.

The original system is push together plastic and as can be seen in the photo, has huge gaps...around 2mm on each side so if the duct is pushed to one side, that leaves a massive 4mm gap for water to be sucked in. Any water entering at this point goes straight to the air filter box and the next stop is the engine. Consequences of that on a Cape trip are not what any off us want to think about.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/965.jpg


The real problem is that it is out of sight out of mind and getting a snorkel gives a false sense of security. I would strongly recommend anyone with a snorkel, getting a fix whether it is mine or another system, before hitting a water crossing. It is easy to understand why LR calls their system a raised air intake and not a snorkel.

[fonfe]

They call it a raised air intake as that's exactly what it is.
Its not designed to be a snorkel, its meant for vehicles that travel dusty roads, anyone who plans on wading should not be buying the LR one

[Disco Muppet]

They call it a raised air intake as that's exactly what it is.
Its not designed to be a snorkel, its meant for vehicles that travel dusty roads, anyone who plans on wading should not be buying the LR one

Except Nugget's not talking about the LR factory RAI.
He's talking about the Safari Snorkel, which is exactly as it's name suggests, a snorkel for wading.
As such, it's a valid concern.

[nugge t]

It is ANY snorkel. The ducting shown in the photo is the original LR airbox and duct that is on the inside of the guard.

It doesn't matter what you bolt onto the outside because they all still use the original ducting which is as shown.

Great having a water tight seal between your new snorkel and the bodwork when the other side has huge gaps in it.

The reason LR call it a raised air intake is because they know the ducting leaks like a sieve.:D

[gitney]

Hi all,
If you install a safari snorkel yourselves or get a reputable installer and they follow the safari installation instructions that come with the snorkel, They clearly show you how to separate these suspect joins and seal them up with sikaflex or similar.
This although arguably not as good as nuggets aftermarket fix does do the job well if your diligent with the sealant.

[Disco Muppet]

The reason LR call it a raised air intake is because they know the ducting leaks like a sieve.:D

It is a Defender :p :angel:

[nugge t]

Hi all,
If you install a safari snorkel yourselves or get a reputable installer and they follow the safari installation instructions that come with the snorkel, They clearly show you how to separate these suspect joins and seal them up with sikaflex or similar.
This although arguably not as good as nuggets aftermarket fix does do the job well if your diligent with the sealant.


That is excellent that they are doing that.

Do they recommend doing anything at the air filter box end?

I certainly do not remember that being included when I fitted mine a few years back, or it being included in the Airtec instructions when we fitted Witchdoctors....could be corrected on that as I have turfed the instructions but neither Dave or I remember it.

[Chops]

Thanks for the heads up Nugget.

I'm hoping to get a good look at mine this weekend as whilst away on our last trip I noticed the box just inside the guard had what looked like a split/crack in it, running down what looks like a welded/moulded join.

So depending what I find I may be looking at various options,, including getting LR to fix their workmanship/parts.
I'll try to get some pics when I check things out.

[fonfe]

Except Nugget's not talking about the LR factory RAI.
He's talking about the Safari Snorkel, which is exactly as it's name suggests, a snorkel for wading.
As such, it's a valid concern.

Sorry my bad, thought he was talking about the LR item as he mentioned LR but not safari.
Thought it was normal practise to use sealant on any snorkel install though?

[Bundalene]

IMHO the original air intake adapter inside the guard is a piece of rubbish and I doubt whether it can be successfully sealed.

I know there are some shonky installers out there as I have seen a couple which had the snorkel bolted on the outside with no remedial work done under the guard at all

We eliminated this adapter altogether with a write up in our Puma Build post. Nuggets design provides an off the shelf solution without having to do your own proto-typing and trial and error.



Erich

[Sue]

I wish I could get in to have a look at mine to see if it was sealed when it was fitted by TJM.. either way as soon as Nugget gets something happening for the Airtec snorkel I shall be the first in line to put one on my car. If you ask me it's a small price to pay for piece of mind.. :)

[Drover]

The whole issue is the sealing from the snorkel to the air box. All the snorkel options are water proof, wether they are LR, Mantec, Safari ......

The issue starts by trying to seal the snorkel to guard. Not so easy !

Then, the factory ducting is a throw away. Sure the instruction say use SikaFlex to seal it......but have you tried it, SikaFelx ( or anything else ) doesn't stick to that type of plastic, it just peels off.

So the ducting MUST be replaced, simple as that !

And......even if you install a system that is totally sealed from the tip of the snorkel to the air box. The air box lid leaks like a siv and its right at the font of the bonnet, where water is push straight over it.

[gitney]

That is excellent that they are doing that.

Do they recommend doing anything at the air filter box end?

I certainly do not remember that being included when I fitted mine a few years back, or it being included in the Airtec instructions when we fitted Witchdoctors....could be corrected on that as I have turfed the instructions but neither Dave or I remember it.

hi nugget, yeah my instructions mentioned to sikaflex the plastic duct to the inner air box in the guard, to sikaflex the actual snorkel to the guard, and also came with new rivets to drill out the air filter air box pull out the air box and sikaflex the duct into the air filter box. As drover mentioned though the actual air filter box leaks through the top lid easilly and also the little drain valves have a good chance of leaking in both air boxes so it is a bit of a job to seal this system totally up. You're solution looks simple and great and I would be buying one for sure if I hadn't already spent all the time tinkering with my current setup.

[labrado]

The whole issue is the sealing from the snorkel to the air box. All the snorkel options are water proof, wether they are LR, Mantec, Safari ......

The issue starts by trying to seal the snorkel to guard. Not so easy !

Then, the factory ducting is a throw away. Sure the instruction say use SikaFlex to seal it......but have you tried it, SikaFelx ( or anything else ) doesn't stick to that type of plastic, it just peels off.

So the ducting MUST be replaced, simple as that !

And......even if you install a system that is totally sealed from the tip of the snorkel to the air box. The air box lid leaks like a siv and its right at the font of the bonnet, where water is push straight over it.
so how to seal the air box lid?

[nugge t]

hi nugget, yeah my instructions mentioned to sikaflex the plastic duct to the inner air box in the guard, to sikaflex the actual snorkel to the guard, and also came with new rivets to drill out the air filter air box pull out the air box and sikaflex the duct into the air filter box. As drover mentioned though the actual air filter box leaks through the top lid easilly and also the little drain valves have a good chance of leaking in both air boxes so it is a bit of a job to seal this system totally up. You're solution looks simple and great and I would be buying one for sure if I hadn't already spent all the time tinkering with my current setup.


Excellent. I wonder if they actually do that as removing the airfilter box on these is a total PIA if you haven't done it before. There is actually a significant gap in the join at this end as the air filter box has a join in it which definitely needs filling.

I was never comfortable with the "no clamps" concept apart from the massive gaps. Just feel a whole lot more comfortable with some pressure holding it together.

[Reads90]

As said never trust them any off them to be waterproof.

Even If you have fitted them or a dealer.

[ProjectDirector]

Hi all,
If you install a safari snorkel yourselves or get a reputable installer and they follow the safari installation instructions that come with the snorkel, They clearly show you how to separate these suspect joins and seal them up with sikaflex or similar.
This although arguably not as good as nuggets aftermarket fix does do the job well if your diligent with the sealant.

Sorry for my ignorance but what is nugget's fix. I am asking this because I have my new defender booked in at a reputable workshop specialising in LR and they are installing a safari.
Do you think I should be speaking to them?
Also, this workshop recommended against Mantec or LR version as it is not waterproof, but they said if i insisted on LR version they can modify it, it was too expensive anyway.

[chook73]

Have a look in the verandah and you will see nuggets fix. It replaces everything between the snorkel and the air filter which is the most concerning section as it doesn't matter how well fitted or waterproof your snorkel is if you leave this section as is you don't have a waterproof air intake.

[ProjectDirector]

Have a look in the verandah and you will see nuggets fix. It replaces everything between the snorkel and the air filter which is the most concerning section as it doesn't matter how well fitted or waterproof your snorkel is if you leave this section as is you don't have a waterproof air intake.

Thanks, got that.

[Scallops]

I was lucky enough to win one at the Defender Day....MR fitted it for me today whilst Grover was being serviced. They liked the design.....

I'd just like to thank nugget again for making this great prize available. :)

BTW - it will work with a variety of snorkels (mine is a genuine mushroom top LR snorkel) - as long as your vehicle is a Puma.

[Loubrey]

Also, this workshop recommended against Mantec or LR version as it is not waterproof, but they said if i insisted on LR version they can modify it, it was too expensive anyway.

Obviously stocks the Safari as any snorkel/ RAI is only as waterproof as the ducting to the air box and into the engine. In a standard Puma this will not happen without special kit like Nugget's, regardless of what the workshop claims.

Scallops, great news mate! I have the Mantec one and if it works on a OME Puma RAI it will work on the Mantec.

Only Defender I ever managed to seal close to perfect was my last 300Tdi. Safari with a "home made" duct of 78mm reinforced rubber tubing. I could suffocate the engine to a stand still by covering the top of the snorkel (intake off) with an old piece of mud flap...

Cheers,

Lou

[Defender Mike]

Im glad I read this before crossing Yardi Creek ( Exmouth) in a day or 2. I thought my snorkel factory (dealer ) fitted was the ducks nuts and water proof. No time to seal it up before we go so hope the water is not too deep.
Mike

[Summiitt]

Im glad I read this before crossing Yardi Creek ( Exmouth) in a day or 2. I thought my snorkel factory (dealer ) fitted was the ducks nuts and water proof. No time to seal it up before we go so hope the water is not too deep.
Mike

If it makes you feel better, I have run across the Murray at Tom groggin and geehi with a factory RAI more times than I care to remember with the water over the bonnet and a couple of times up to the windscreen wipers in my puma, no probs, just siliconed the flexible ducting and the air box intake..

[Chops]

If it makes you feel better, I have run across the Murray at Tom groggin and geehi with a factory RAI more times than I care to remember with the water over the bonnet and a couple of times up to the windscreen wipers in my puma, no probs, just siliconed the flexible ducting and the air box intake..

We have done the same, although not quite that high, never had a drama, although I'll be checking mine tomorrow anyway.

[Drover]

If it makes you feel better, I have run across the Murray at Tom groggin and geehi with a factory RAI more times than I care to remember with the water over the bonnet and a couple of times up to the windscreen wipers in my puma, no probs, just siliconed the flexible ducting and the air box intake..


Did you bother to check the air box or filter for water egress ? Or we're you just happy to drive on ?

Not trying to be clever, but the from the tip of my snorkel to the air box is 100% sealed, no doubt - no question.......and I still got water in the air box after Nolan's Brook last year !

We're from.......the air box lid :(

[ProjectDirector]

Obviously stocks the Safari as any snorkel/ RAI is only as waterproof as the ducting to the air box and into the engine. In a standard Puma this will not happen without special kit like Nugget's, regardless of what the workshop claims.

Scallops, great news mate! I have the Mantec one and if it works on a OME Puma RAI it will work on the Mantec.

Only Defender I ever managed to seal close to perfect was my last 300Tdi. Safari with a "home made" duct of 78mm reinforced rubber tubing. I could suffocate the engine to a stand still by covering the top of the snorkel (intake off) with an old piece of mud flap...

Cheers,

Lou

Well, you are right, they are ARB agents so guess what snorkel they will recommend. Thing is, the mantec is $100 dearer than the safari and LR $200 more. Is there any difference between the three apart from the traditional look?
I certainly prefer the traditional look but concerned about air tightness and cost.

[camel_landy]

Except Nugget's not talking about the LR factory RAI.
He's talking about the Safari Snorkel, which is exactly as it's name suggests, a snorkel for wading.
As such, it's a valid concern.

As much as you don't want to hear it, FONFE is correct.

The wading depth on the Defender is only 500mm, anything more is done at your own risk and not warranted in any way.

M

[Sandgroper]

Im glad I read this before crossing Yardi Creek ( Exmouth) in a day or 2. I thought my snorkel factory (dealer ) fitted was the ducks nuts and water proof. No time to seal it up before we go so hope the water is not too deep.
Mike

Most of the time the sandbar is high and dry there and ok to drive on, I wouldn't be too keen on driving through sea water high enough to need a snorkel anyway.

[4runnernomore]

I was there a month ago with work.

Yardi Creek was landlocked then. Sand is super soft though so momentum is your friend.

Cheers, Chris

[Disco Muppet]

As much as you don't want to hear it, FONFE is correct.

The wading depth on the Defender is only 500mm, anything more is done at your own risk and not warranted in any way.

M

I'm not arguing against that, and it doesn't bother me as I don't have a defender :p

My point was the difference between a raised air intake and a snorkel, they both do similar functions but the snorkel is designed for water work primarily.
However as Nugget has pointed out, it's not so much an issue with the snorkel, it's the airbox.

[Summiitt]

500mm wading depth for a defender is a joke, you can drive a falcon thru 500mm of water!!

[chook73]

500mm wading depth for a defender is a joke, you can drive a falcon thru 500mm of water!!

The air system is probably sealed better from the factory on a falcon. :wasntme:

[Loubrey]

500mm wading depth for a defender is a joke, you can drive a falcon thru 500mm of water!!

It's only the depth at which you warranty seizes and you'll be surprised at how shallow the majority of 4x4 marques place theirs (if they bother at all).

Believe me, Ford won't entertain a warranty claim if you drove a Falcon through 500mm of water...!

The Mantec RAI is also labelled a "snorkel" and its as waterproof down to the attachment to the car as the Safari. However, unlike Safari they don't refrain from telling you that you have to do serious modification to your air ducting to prevent water ingress - hence the warning on the packaging that in "normal" form its only a RAI.

What people seem to blissfully ignore is the fact that should you get stuck in deepish water and it enters the car (as it definitely would) you throttle sensor inside the Puma is a far bigger problem than the level of the intake (by about a 150mm).

Properly driven with a decent bow wave a Defender will easily wade 900mm and pre-Td5 they will even happily run/ idle in 800mm of standing water (underside of the intake), not allowing for the breathers that would need raising.) This is still significantly deeper than the recommended or "allowed" depth and the number of unknown factors in a water crossing makes it far too risky to even attempt.

Nugget's fix is a major step in "piece of mind" for a Puma on a water crossing, but stall or hit an underwater obstacle in water deeper than 600mm - 700mm in any standard new 4x4 other than the higher end Land Rovers with air suspension and your day is most probably going to end badly.

Cheers,

Lou