Better than a 4BD1?

[Landiheaven]

How would one of these rate over the Isuzu 4bd1?

15b toyota diesel to lt85 land rover conversion | Trade Me (http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-parts-accessories/landrover/auction-612997062.htm)

Thinking it would go straight in to my 110 trayback:)

[Judo]

You could try, but the Landy chassis might reject it like an unwanted organ transplant.

[Blknight.aus]

Thinking it would go straight in to my 110 trayback:)

On the way to the tip I'm assuming.

with those numbers youd be just as well off with a tdi300.

[Dougal]

There was a 4BD1T on tardme a month back for $2k. Almost bought it myself.

[Bush65]

The 14BT and 15BT are good engines, the 15BT having better technology and larger displacement than a 4BD1T, but relies on some electronics. However the height (overhead cams) and the exhaust location on the RH side could be big problems.

The NA, 15B is a poor substitute.

[Landiheaven]

There was a 4BD1T on tardme a month back for $2k. Almost bought it myself.

You mean that 4BD1 that was set up for a marine application Dougal? I was looking very seriously at that 4BE1 3.6 and Nissan mq patrol box setup that was in a SIIA 109.

[Dougal]

You mean that 4BD1 that was set up for a marine application Dougal? I was looking very seriously at that 4BE1 3.6 and Nissan mq patrol box setup that was in a SIIA 109.

Yes. But all it really had was an intercooler bolted to the top, a rebuild of completely unknown quality and it was an 85/86 model like mine. So other than a swap in spare it wasn't any benefit to me.

4BE1 and 4BD1T are largely interchangable. So if you get a setup for one, it's no problem to upgrade later.

[Landiheaven]

4BD1 and T's are bloody expensive over here and we don't have the luxury of Isuzu Bellhousings to mate to the LT95/85

[Dougal]

4BD1 and T's are bloody expensive over here and we don't have the luxury of Isuzu Bellhousings to mate to the LT95/85

Would you be interested in an Isuzu MSA-5P gearbox (factory Isuzu 4BD1T box) with adapter shaft into LT230 and gear lever adapted to the "long stick" position of the early LT77?

[goingbush]

How would one of these rate over the Isuzu 4bd1?

15b toyota diesel to lt85 land rover conversion | Trade Me (http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-parts-accessories/landrover/auction-612997062.htm)

Thinking it would go straight in to my 110 trayback:)

Horrible looking bellhousing to bellhousing, conversion why not just use a Toyota gearbox and transfer case if your going to use a Toyota donk !

[Landiheaven]

Would you be interested in an Isuzu MSA-5P gearbox (factory Isuzu 4BD1T box) with adapter shaft into LT230 and gear lever adapted to the "long stick" position of the early LT77?

Sounds great Dougal, I'm guessing the MSA is invincible? I am interested. is it a RR lt77 position or 90/110?

[Dougal]

Sounds great Dougal, I'm guessing the MSA is invincible? I am interested. is it a RR lt77 position or 90/110?

Yes the MSA's are bulletproof. This one was fitted to my rangie from ~1992 to 2007 when I changed to another MSA with different ratios.

This is the early RR LT77 long stick position where the gear lever is in front of the LT230 transfer lever. I think it's the same as 90/110 but I've never had them out to check.
The short stick position in later RR and discos had the gear lever behind the transfer lever. It's not one of those.

There is a catch, I'm still using bits of it. I need to finish some other stuff before it'll all be available.

[Landiheaven]

Yes the MSA's are bulletproof. This one was fitted to my rangie from ~1992 to 2007 when I changed to another MSA with different ratios.

This is the early RR LT77 long stick position where the gear lever is in front of the LT230 transfer lever. I think it's the same as 90/110 but I've never had them out to check.
The short stick position in later RR and discos had the gear lever behind the transfer lever. It's not one of those.

There is a catch, I'm still using bits of it. I need to finish some other stuff before it'll all be available.

Dougal, is it possible to bolt a 4HF1T to where a 4BD was? 4.3L DI

[Dougal]

Dougal, is it possible to bolt a 4HF1T to where a 4BD was? 4.3L DI

They use a different bell-housing. It's possible to put the MSA-4B series bellhousings on MXA boxes so it should be possible to put the MXA-4H series bellhousings on MSA boxes.

The biggest problem with the 4H series is the rearward facing starter.

[airman08]

They use a different bell-housing. It's possible to put the MSA-4B series bellhousings on MXA boxes so it should be possible to put the MXA-4H series bellhousings on MSA boxes.

The biggest problem with the 4H series is the rearward facing starter.

I was trying to get some more information on the PERKINS 850 Series.

3.3L turbo diesel, industrial purpose, but low rev. dont know if it is suitable.

[Dougal]

I was trying to get some more information on the PERKINS 850 Series.

3.3L turbo diesel, industrial purpose, but low rev. dont know if it is suitable.

Recent Perkins are running 1.1L per cylinder. Is that a 3 cyl?

[Bush65]

Industrial diesels often use a governor that is unsuitable for use in a road vehicle. They are may be constant power or constant speed governors, depending upon the application.

For road vehicles the governor needs to be a variable speed variable load type.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I'm going back to the first post and want to ask about why the 15B at 86Kw is better than the 4BD1 at 88Kw?

[JDNSW]

Industrial diesels often use a governor that is unsuitable for use in a road vehicle. They are may be constant power or constant speed governors, depending upon the application.

For road vehicles the governor needs to be a variable speed variable load type.

Are you aware that Landrover diesels had variable speed governors rather than variable power for 25 years? Same as many typical industrial diesels.

John

[Dougal]

JCB have some real animal diesels now. I saw a pump yesterday, 4.8L turbo 4 cylinder.
115kw at 1500rpm.:eek:

But the most interesting thing, JCB list flywheel inertia in their engine specs. I've long suspected the 4BD1 has the lightest flywheel in it's class by about half.

[airman08]

JCB have some real animal diesels now. I saw a pump yesterday, 4.8L turbo 4 cylinder.
115kw at 1500rpm.:eek:

But the most interesting thing, JCB list flywheel inertia in their engine specs. I've long suspected the 4BD1 has the lightest flywheel in it's class by about half.

Sorry I mean PERKINS 845E 3.4 Turbo Diesel, dry ~270kg, smaller than 110mt Phaser. Power/Torque output is good, but low rev.

[airman08]

http://www.perkins.com/cda/files/2207701/7/854E-E34TA%20Engine%20PN1956.pdf

[isuzurover]

Are you aware that Landrover diesels had variable speed governors rather than variable power for 25 years? Same as many typical industrial diesels.

John

I assume you mean the CAV DPA? Are you sure?

[airman08]

3.4L Turbo Diesel+R380 or LT85 is quite a good combination from my point of view. It is not too torquey to destroy the R380, yet, still have the smooth gear changing.

Good weight distribution, power density, fuel consumption...

One thing i realised is that thenengine mounts for these 4-cylinder engines are pretty much the same as the 4BD1. (correct me if I was wrong)

Adapter kit, not sure if we can used the MD PERKINS Kit.

[isuzurover]

Speaking of Perkins, I remember years ago reading one of the UK LR mags, where someone had sent in a letter to the tech section asking about fitting a Perkins Phaser to a landie (101FC I recall). The mag's "expert" told them to stop being an idiot, that the phaser was far too large, heavy and powerful for the rest of the drivetrain.

I looked up the phaser and saw it was only 4L 4cyl - basically the same as the Cummins 4b(t) and Isuzu 4BD1(T).

Needless to say I stopped buying the mag after that...

Speaking of flywheels - looks like a nice heavy one on this phaser turbo:
Perkins 1004-4T AB - test Wibako - YouTube

[airman08]

Speaking of Perkins, I remember years ago reading one of the UK LR mags, where someone had sent in a letter to the tech section asking about fitting a Perkins Phaser to a landie (101FC I recall). The mag's "expert" told them to stop being an idiot, that the phaser was far too large, heavy and powerful for the rest of the drivetrain.

I looked up the phaser and saw it was only 4L 4cyl - basically the same as the Cummins 4b(t) and Isuzu 4BD1(T).

Needless to say I stopped buying the mag after that...

Speaking of flywheels - looks like a nice heavy one on this phaser turbo:
Perkins 1004-4T AB - test Wibako - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s-rFWYKgCw)

saw that video too.

Phaser was the previous generation product, heavy, big, and large displacement.

I always wanted to find good alternative power solution for LR Disco/Defender. Say around 100KW@2500-2800rpm and 400-450Nm@1600-1800rpm. Minor electrical stuffs, I guess we can't really get rid of it nowadays.

I have sent a couple of enquiries but no one seems to pick up calls and bother to reply emails during the holiday season.

[Bush65]

...

Speaking of flywheels - looks like a nice heavy one on this phaser turbo:...
Just going by the four engine mounts it is meant for industrial use, where they typically have to maintain a set speed.

When the load suddenly changes the heavy flywheel helps maintain that speed, until the governor catches up.

And talking about Perkins, aren't they owned by Caterpillar now?

[JDNSW]

I assume you mean the CAV DPA? Are you sure?

The early 2a I owned certainly did, and so did the late S3 I own the remains of, so I assume all the others did. I used to use the hand "throttle" as a cruise control and was quite surprised when I got the 110 and found it did not work the same.

John

[airman08]

Speaking of which, do you guys think the NV4500 gearbox can be fitted in to Defender?

[isuzurover]

Speaking of which, do you guys think the NV4500 gearbox can be fitted in to Defender?

Already has been several times...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/01/1268.jpg

http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/LR.images/Lonn_gearbox1.jpg

[Dougal]

Got a tractor here with a Perkins 1104D-44T. It's 4.4 litres turbocharged. Phenomenal engine for power, torque and NVH. I'm pretty sure it's mechanical injection too. I know when one is working nearby as you can hear the implements (mower, sprayer etc) but you cannot hear the engine. Which is the complete opposite to the Perkins AD3.152.
http://www.perkins.com/cda/files/334107/7/1104D-44T%20Engine%20PN1835.pdf

Higher ratings are available intercooled. But I don't know if they have any injection advance mechanism for higher rpm.

[airman08]

Got a tractor here with a Perkins 1104D-44T. It's 4.4 litres turbocharged. Phenomenal engine for power, torque and NVH. I'm pretty sure it's mechanical injection too. I know when one is working nearby as you can hear the implements (mower, sprayer etc) but you cannot hear the engine. Which is the complete opposite to the Perkins AD3.152.
http://www.perkins.com/cda/files/334107/7/1104D-44T%20Engine%20PN1835.pdf

Higher ratings are available intercooled. But I don't know if they have any injection advance mechanism for higher rpm.

Dougal, dont you think this engine is too heavy and too tall for the Defender engine bay?

[Dougal]

Dougal, dont you think this engine is too heavy and too tall for the Defender engine bay?

It's lighter than a 4BD1T The height difference is the industrial sump which you would need to modify for axle clearance.

[isuzurover]

Google just found this (old) ad for a 110 county with a Perkins Phaser:


Land rover county powered by a inter-cooled 4lt Perkins Phaser turbo diesel(110-MT)- the same engine used in the OKA 4x4. Lots of Torque. Cruises around 2000RPM at 100KM/H.
Adapter kit made by Milner Engineering in UK.
The engine was fitted at 200,000 km so yet to do 100,000KM. - Oil change every 5000km(Castrol RX Super)
LT95 gearbox with tapered roller bearing- recently replaced 2nd gear and synchro.
AP racing H/D clutch kit.
New starter motor
Fuelflow electric fuel pump
King springs and bilstein shocks.
Terrafirma Heavy Duty Rear axle drive flanges
Cranked rear radius arms
Front and Rear Disc brakes
Maxxis Bravo tyres on 16x7 performance alloys- still plenty of tread. Brand new spare.
Front and Rear sway bars- rear one is currently removed -comes with new link ball-joints but need a couple of new bushes.
New front whiteline sway bar/link bushes.
Recently replaced steering damper.
Replaced rear a-frame balljoint.
New Alternator and P/S belts
Safari snorkel
New donaldson air cleaner
Chequerplate wingtops- i sprayed them black but paint is peeling off.
Roofrack- just fitted new clamps.
Long range fuel tank
Warn winch- can't seem to locate the remote cable.
VDO gauges-oil pressure/voltmeter/boost.
CD player with ipod connection.
heavy duty rubber chequerplate flooring throughout.
Removed original A/C-Heater unit and replaced with defender heater but never got around to hooking up the piping.
Includes original Jack and will throw in whatever spare parts i have in shed.
Any questions please email/phone. Welcome to come have a look/test drive.
Can drop off at vehicle transport depot for interstate buyer.
*Vehicle is already registered with this engine so you don't need an engineers certificate.
Reluctant sale but can't justify rego on 2 cars.
Please note- vehicle also advertised elsewhere.

The only engine pic:
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA3MVgxNjAw/z/5MUAAOxyd8NScNDP/$%28KGrHqRHJE0FJj9KS,j%28BScNDO8wt!~~60_57.JPG

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/01/1114.jpg

EDIT: Another one here:
http://www.milweb.net/webverts/56545/

[airman08]

Google just found this (old) ad for a 110 county with a Perkins Phaser:



The only engine pic:
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA3MVgxNjAw/z/5MUAAOxyd8NScNDP/$%28KGrHqRHJE0FJj9KS,j%28BScNDO8wt!~~60_57.JPG

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/01/1114.jpg

EDIT: Another one here:
Military vehicles, militaria and military classifieds (http://www.milweb.net/webverts/56545/)

Got an Email back from Conversion & Precision Engineering UK, they don't make the conversion kit anymore. :(:(

[rb30gtr]

And that county is now for sale on this forum.. Small world!

[Landiheaven]

Well its finally installed, mated to the LT85 box which I rebuilt at considerable cost, I used the LT230 1.003 ratio which I had lying around from an early 727 trans RR. I can see why you guys love the 4BD1 engine owing to the huge seamless torque it produces. I thought it may have been over geared, yes reverse and 1st are a little higher than I would like, but with such gobs of off idle torque it doesn't worry it. Seems better than the 6.2 diesel I used to have. Quieter than I thought it would be. Posted a short video (not a good one) on it running. no exhaust at the moment


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkWq4hf_u6k


Next on list are new front shocks and springs (still has original v8 springs!)
Deeper bumpstops
Fitting LT230 Oil feed plate
Turbo (Advise here Dougal please!)


Cheers

[Dougal]

So you went 4bd1 in the end?

[Landiheaven]

No its 15B Toyota. I was making a comparison that the two (4bd1 and 15b) have fairly similar characteristics power wise

[Dougal]

No its 15B Toyota. I was making a comparison that the two (4bd1 and 15b) have fairly similar characteristics power wise

Gotcha. I didn't see the video yesterday on my phone. Today I can see the video, but not much in it. You need some more light in that garage!

Toyota CT12B is the factory turbo, same one used on the 3.0 1KZ engines. I beleive it's a MHI TD04 based turbo.
The MHI-TD04HL-19T is your best all-round turbo. With a 6cm exhaust housing. New reproductions are good money on Ebay.

[Landiheaven]

Thanks Dougal, I will look into it, is there anything else commonly available as a substitute in the garrett style flange as finding a 15b-ft manifold is near on impossible. I was going to copy the gasket and get a local firm to waterjet a plate out and make a simple log style manifold, using a t3 flange plate. Something like a Nissan skyline turbo. I don't want huge boost, just if im going to get it certified it may as well be done with a turbo fitted rather than have to cert again if its fitted later

[Dougal]

Thanks Dougal, I will look into it, is there anything else commonly available as a substitute in the garrett style flange as finding a 15b-ft manifold is near on impossible. I was going to copy the gasket and get a local firm to waterjet a plate out and make a simple log style manifold, using a t3 flange plate. Something like a Nissan skyline turbo. I don't want huge boost, just if im going to get it certified it may as well be done with a turbo fitted rather than have to cert again if its fitted later
That's the best turbo for these size engines and all uses. T2 flange on most but some volvo variants have a modified t3.

Any chance of making an adapter? I'm sure Toyota can order you in a new manifold.

[Dougal]

JCB have some real animal diesels now. I saw a pump yesterday, 4.8L turbo 4 cylinder.
115kw at 1500rpm.:eek:

But the most interesting thing, JCB list flywheel inertia in their engine specs. I've long suspected the 4BD1 has the lightest flywheel in it's class by about half.

So today I got to see this JCB animal start up. Client of mine has installed two new pump motors. One a 4.8L JCB. The other a 4BG1T.

JCB: http://www.google.co.nz/url'sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jcb-motoren.nl%2Fdownload%2FDieselmax-448-G-TCA-127kVA-EU-Stage-II.pdf&ei=ORkZVNXVGsSk8AXkzYKoBA&usg=AFQjCNEXN9A66rpW_F1k_zw1ICukZmnIGA&sig2=eMuNiVIBHascA1GxXUs0Fw&bvm=bv.75558745,d.dGc

Basic specs.
1500rpm governed speed (mechanical Stanadyne rotary pump same as JD diesels).
730Nm at 1500rpm to deliver 117kw.
Runs a lot of boost (should be over 20psi) from a Borg Warner Turbo.
A/F ratio around 25:1 at full load.
Intercooler and radiator side by side like the 300tdi.
Fuel injected max 160cc/1000 shots.
Exhaust is completely clean.
Intercooler return is cold.

4BG1T appears much quieter.
Costs about half as much.
Produces half the power at 1500rpm.
Comparable efficiency.
Turbo pipes look kind of small after staring at the JCB for an hour.