D1 v D3

[TerryO]

*updated with a few more pics added.

The pics are of my old favourite 'Mountain Goat' D1 and the D3 that we are slowly building up to be an even more capable off roader than they are standard.

Now most everyone knows that you can heavily mod a D1 to get lots of ground clearance and fit some pretty decent sized tyres.

The pics show that these two Disco's have reasonably similar ground clearance and approach angles. The thing is the old Mountain Goat is no standard D1, it has a 2" body lift, 2" suspension lift and 33" BFG's fitted. Gloria has to just about stand on a box to get in it.

Anyway the point is a D3/4 with some pretty inexpensive mods (LLAMS or GOE Rods and taller tyres) can come close to having similar off road height and suspension travel as a reasonably heavily modded D1. The D1 with its shorter wheelbase, better ramp over angle and just about no rear over hang though will still go places the D3 would struggle.

Both vehicles are great and I enjoy both as much as the other. In realty both are quite different while being very similar.




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Note the big difference in height with the D3 at Off Road height plus LLAMS at full extension and at normal on road height.
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Thank you for checking out the pictures.

[Tank]

Independent suspension has the major drawback that when the wheel travels up, the pivot point travels down, reducing ground clearance at that point.
With a solid axle (D1) when the wheel travels up so does the whole vehicle, increasing ground clearance, D1's do rule, Regards Frank.

[CaverD3]

Not quite that simple D3/4 air suspension models the system actually forces the other wheel to seek ground so has similar effect to solid axle. One reason why they are so good off road.
Coilers are not as effective when cross axle'd.

[mools]

If it were a beauty contest there would be a clear winner. The D3 is a pretty ugly vehicle, I much prefer the look of the D1.

Ever wondered where Landrover got the idea for the D1 styling from?

63203

[Tank]

Not quite that simple D3/4 air suspension models the system actually forces the other wheel to seek ground so has similar effect to solid axle. One reason why they are so good off road.
Coilers are not as effective when cross axle'd.
It cant be any simpler, "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction", a simple law of physics, the pivot point at the bush where the bottom suspension arm connects to the crossmember will move down if the other (outer wheel end) moves up, has no choice, it's the law, Regards Frank.

[Geedublya]

Independent suspension has the major drawback that when the wheel travels up, the pivot point travels down, reducing ground clearance at that point.
With a solid axle (D1) when the wheel travels up so does the whole vehicle, increasing ground clearance, D1's do rule, Regards Frank.

I'm a little confused by this statement, surely as a suspension system even a solid axle should move relative to the body and it has a pivot point.
What you are describing is not a suspension system just a wheel mounted to a chassis.

I understand that live axles have much more ability to drop and that the reaction on one wheel has an opposite reaction on the other. Definitely a solid axle has it's advantages in some off road situations however the huge unsprung weight and the inability to articulate wheels independently does mean that it is not as comfortable or as responsive.

D1, D2, D3, D4 and Defender they are all just vehicles designed with different and evolving parameters. In my instance I need a vehicle to drive day to day in the city and then to escape on the occasional weekend either towing a 1.2 tonne camper or carting a tent and gear to out of the way places. The D3/D4 is the best compromise I could find for those needs.

[Graeme]

It cant be any simpler, "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction", a simple law of physics, the pivot point at the bush where the bottom suspension arm connects to the crossmember will move down if the other (outer wheel end) moves up, has no choice, it's the law, Regards Frank.
That law is for energy, eg why a rocket engine propells the rocket, the recoil from a fired gun, not the mechanics of levers.

[rick130]

With an independent suspension when it's lifted from static ride height like that you do lose droop travel, but most solid axles that are lifted lose a respective amount of droop travel too, as (usually) only standard dampers are used, often the springs used have the same free length as stock, only the rate is increased, etc. etc. (not saying this is the case with Terry's, I have no idea what he's done to the D1)

You have to do a bit of work with the RRC/D1/110 suspension to maximise it's performance and take advantage of potential travel increases, (dampers, damper mounts, bushes, etc.) otherwise they are both just a tyre and obstacle clearance increase.

[Tank]

That law is for energy, eg why a rocket engine propells the rocket, the recoil from a fired gun, not the mechanics of levers.
Totally wrong, Regards frank.

[Tank]

I'm a little confused by this statement, surely as a suspension system even a solid axle should move relative to the body and it has a pivot point.
What you are describing is not a suspension system just a wheel mounted to a chassis.

I understand that live axles have much more ability to drop and that the reaction on one wheel has an opposite reaction on the other. Definitely a solid axle has it's advantages in some off road situations however the huge unsprung weight and the inability to articulate wheels independently does mean that it is not as comfortable or as responsive.

D1, D2, D3, D4 and Defender they are all just vehicles designed with different and evolving parameters. In my instance I need a vehicle to drive day to day in the city and then to escape on the occasional weekend either towing a 1.2 tonne camper or carting a tent and gear to out of the way places. The D3/D4 is the best compromise I could find for those needs.
If you loaded a large weight onto an independent suspensioned vehicle you could force the centre of the vehicle to touch the ground, the same weight on a live solid axle vehicle would not decrease the ground clearance under the diffs, Regards Frank.

[rb30gtr]

Love the pics of the two compared like that, awesome trucks both of them. And both with their advantages.

[vogue]

Nice pair of Disco's you've got.
I have a V8 D1 and love it. Would love a D3/4 but can't afford the maintenance costs:(

[Redback]

Nice pair of Disco's you've got.
I have a V8 D1 and love it. Would love a D3/4 but can't afford the maintenance costs:(

Our D4 doesn't cost anymore to maintain than our D2 did, service costs are almost the same.

Baz.

[vogue]

Might be ok for a new vehicle, but there is no way a 8 year old D3 costs the same as a 10 year old D2 to maintain especially when you factor in what can go wrong on a 200,000km

[SBD4]

If you loaded a large weight onto an independent suspensioned vehicle you could force the centre of the vehicle to touch the ground, the same weight on a live solid axle vehicle would not decrease the ground clearance under the diffs, Regards Frank.

Yes - in the absence of any controls to prevent that from happening - which the D3/D4 has. The inverse of your argument would be, there is no way to increase the diff clearance of live axle vehicle where as you can with an independent suspension vehicle - with relevant controls such as those that the D3/D4 has.

[TerryO]

Might be ok for a new vehicle, but there is no way a 8 year old D3 costs the same as a 10 year old D2 to maintain especially when you factor in what can go wrong on a 200,000km


100% agree, the D1 is by far the most affordable to maintain Disco of the lot.

D3's can be and with time will prove to be very expensive to maintain, D2's are not cheap either.

Owning all three at once I know what each one costs to own, to say its a labour of love is an understatement.

My advice to anyone thinking of buying a early D3 would be try and stretch yourself to a new D4, in the long run I bet it works out a much better all round proposition.

By the way I have added a couple more pictures this morning for those who are interested. Once the D3 is lowered to normal height it starts to look like a low rider compared to the D1.

And it's good to see Frank taking so much interest in how good the D3's independent suspension is. ...:p

[Graeme]

The 2 together show just how similar in size they are whereas a D3/4 normally looks, to me anyway, to be significantly larger. However the D1 is roughly the same size as my RRC, the wheels of which fitted between some rocks and a fence on my place that I wouldn't even try with the D4.

[VladTepes]

I'd have the D3 in preference as I can see out the windscreen - I sit too high in the D1 and its really been annoying the crap out of me. The more affordable answer to my problem, of course,is a Defender.

As you were.

[Glynhouse]

If you loaded a large weight onto an independent suspensioned vehicle you could force the centre of the vehicle to touch the ground, the same weight on a live solid axle vehicle would not decrease the ground clearance under the diffs, Regards Frank.

Correct about the diffs, but a large weight on a live axle vehicle if it had decent travel, would still see the body between the axles touch the ground, so the diff. is ?
Probably be stopped by the bump stops but then the same applies to an independent vehicle.

DD

[Redback]

Might be ok for a new vehicle, but there is no way a 8 year old D3 costs the same as a 10 year old D2 to maintain especially when you factor in what can go wrong on a 200,000km

I was talking comparable Ks of ownership, as the D2 got older, maintenence costs didn't rise that much over the years we owned it(sold it at 320,000ks)and looking at what is happening with the cost of parts now for the D3/4, I think the difference won't be that much and like we did with our D2, England and the USA were a great soarse of cheaper parts, you only have to look at Bi-Xenon light bulbs for the D4 as one example, from $500 each a bulb to as low as $67 a pair for the genuine replacement now, brake shoes and rotors are almost the same price as the D2, all the filters, oils, a new ECU from Land Rover for the D4 is $600, same price as the D2 was/is.

I think as the D4 gets older prices and aftermaket parts will become more available at cheaper prices keeping the cost of maintenence comparable to a point, I mean I'm not saying they will be the same, but they won't be all that different, although a different story if your getting your work done by a Land Rover dealer, but we aren't, so our costs are considerably less.

Baz.

[~Rich~]

It won't help the labour times on performing repairs such as turbo or engine replacement!

[BobD]

I have a D4 and a GQ Patrol with 2" lifted OME suspension, my son has a TDI 300 D1 with 2" lifted OME suspension. We tested the suspension articulation of all three by by driving onto ramps under one front wheel and the diagonally opposite rear wheel.

The D4 just had all four wheels on the ground, the D1 very slightly lifted one wheel (barely off the ground) and the Patrol easily had all four wheels on the ground. All three are pretty impressive but the D4 surprised us with slightly better articulation than the D1.

The problem with the D4 compared to the others is that the front cross member gets closer to the ground over bumps whereas the other two are limited by the diff clearance at the front and rear and the clearance is not affected by spring compression in normal off road driving. While they can all negotiate the same track, you have to do it slowly in the D4 to limit spring compression in ruts whereas the live axle vehicles can be hammered through with no problems.

Once you get the hang of it there isn't a problem but you can't drive it like a Patrol without severely hammering the front cross member and guards. The good thing is that the traction aids mean that you don't have to hammer the D4 to get through ruts and wombat holes.

Bob

[PostHistory]

On the day of my GOE Training day I did some wombat holes and yes Speed is not required for a Disco 4, I actually stopped probably at the most inconvenient time for any other 4x4 only to take off with out an issue.

Pro of the D3/4 is you don't have to put your car in a work shop / void the warranty to achieve what a Modded D1 can do.

This my opinion don't mean you have to agree :)

And going slow over obstacles has gotta be by far better for fatigue on your vehicle and its components.

[Epic pooh]

It won't help the labour times on performing repairs such as turbo or engine replacement!

... V8 ...

Love the vehicles Terry. I have very fond memories of my (100% stock) D1 V8 5sp ... which now, sadly, languishes unregistered in a relatives back yard. I do not miss that stupid excuse for a rear door - what were they thinking. I recently had a Pajero for a week which really rammed home to me how much I loath those side opening huge rear doors with wheels hanging on them. Why do they do that.

Anyway, I often go wheeling with a very heavily modded TJ Jeep (lifted, lockers, big wheels etc etc) - to date there has been nowhere it can go that I can't (in my stock D3) and I have been surprised at times to see him touch the ground (particularly at the rear) when I clear the same obstacle with no problems. He usually needs a lot more speed than me which is part of the ground hitting issue, I'm sure. Also, Jeep owners appear to care a lot less about their vehicles ....

[TerryO]

Its pretty easy to be a critic of a D3/4 or even a girly blouse RRS if you have never owned or driven one off road, especially if your into relying on old accepted norms about independant suspension being no good on a 4x4.

I know before I bought a D3 I thought the Moutain Goat D1 was the ducks guts off road and a D2a HSE was as flash on road as a man needs in a 4x4 and both could be bought for a lot less than a decent second hand D3 back then.

However once you own a D3/4 you realise very quickly how bloody good these things are and how capable they are on so many fronts both on and off road.

As I have said previously, to drive one even with mild off road mods is like cheating against other lightly and even some highly modded 4x4's, that is how good they are.

Anyway I didn't put this thread up to cause a blew or say one is better than the other, as I said originally it was to point out that the D3 with some reasonable mods had nearly as much off road height as a well modded D1.

Plus it gave me an excuse to be a tosser and show lots pics of two of my Disco's ...Now if I could just find a good excuse for putting up some pics of the D2a as well. ...:angel:;)

[Epic pooh]

I think you need to post the d2a in the interests of ride height comparison :)

[TerryO]

I think you need to post the d2a in the interests of ride height comparison :)

You know My Pooh I think your 100% right! ...Bloody hell why didn't I think of that! ...:twisted:

[bell1975]

That's a tidy looking D3 Terry. I'd love to step up to one from my D2. Yours looks nicely balanced in terms of the lift and the tyre size.

And the continuous strip of black across the bottom of the body with the sliders,wheel arch flares, bullbar just looks perfect. Dare I say it, it looks better than the current D4.

[steelo]

Love what you've done to both :D, but one argument that hasn't come up yet................ which one would you tour around Oz towing a, say 16'6", pop-top van. Oh & do the Savannah Way & Gibb River Rd's for example :).

[goingbush]

Im not a Disco freak by any stretch but this is the first time Ive actually thought a D3 looks good, compared to the D1 the D3 shines,
What they did to the D4 tho makes them look downright ugly (the D4 not the D3)

[TerryO]

Hi Steelo,

I bought the D3 because we have a 18" off road pop top and the D2a wouldn't tow it easily. I never intended to mod the D3 much at all, ended up getting carried away with it and love it with the mods it now has and yes there are more mods to come. ...:cool:

I once towed our then off road soft floor camper a couple of hundred clicks on rough dirt roads with the D1 with the mods you can see in the pics and the rear coil springs bent like bomerangs ...:(

Seriously the D2a is a good vehicle and if you never drove a D3 then you would be more than happy with one. Drive a D3 or 4 and well that kind of ruins it for the D2a. On the flip side it has made me enjoy driving the D1 even more.

Which Disco would I drive around Australia using the back roads and tracks, either towing a off road van or with a tent? ...easy the D3. ...:D

[rick130]

I once towed our then off road soft floor camper a couple of hundred clicks on rough dirt roads with the D1 with the mods you can see in the pics and the rear coil springs bent like bomerangs ...:(




Oooh, nasty QC, I reckon you won't buy that brand again ;)

[TerryO]

I didn't build the D1, the previous owner of 8 years did and looking at what has been done to the old girl he spent a small fortune getting it done.

It was built at Graeme Coopers automotive, the body lift kit and whole suspension including adjustable front shock towers, dislocation cones, different rear shock mounts, F & R springs, Bilstein shocks to suit the different mounts all came as a kit from LRA in Melbourne.

Actually it was a bugger to replace the springs as no one could tell me what they were including Coopers. In the end there was a set at Coopers hidden away that had been sitting on a shelf for a very long time.

In part that is why I'm into building up the D3 as rather than buying someone else's build this one is mine.

[rick130]

Browns Springs then.

Unusual, mostly they aren't bad. :(

[muddymech]

would be good if some D2 pictures appeared for comparison

[TerryO]

What a good idea Muddymech! ...why didn't I think of that ...when it stops raining I'll take some comparo pics. ...;)

[steelo]

Hi Steelo,

I bought the D3 because we have a 18" off road pop top and the D2a wouldn't tow it easily. I never intended to mod the D3 much at all, ended up getting carried away with it and love it with the mods it now has and yes there are more mods to come. ...:cool:

I once towed our then off road soft floor camper a couple of hundred clicks on rough dirt roads with the D1 with the mods you can see in the pics and the rear coil springs bent like bomerangs ...:(

Seriously the D2a is a good vehicle and if you never drove a D3 then you would be more than happy with one. Drive a D3 or 4 and well that kind of ruins it for the D2a. On the flip side it has made me enjoy driving the D1 even more.

Which Disco would I drive around Australia using the back roads and tracks, either towing a off road van or with a tent? ...easy the D3. ...:D

Bugger!! you were supposed to say the D1 LOL, ah well my old D1 will have to do just have to sort out some better fuel economy (v8) when towing & stiffer rear coils. We're turning grey nomads next year when we kick the last one out after he finishes yr12 LOL gotta do it while we can, already had 3 open hearts (2 valve replacements) over the years, so am not going to put it off any longer.
Great rigs but (yours), make me jealous :D

[steelo]

What a good idea Muddymech! ...why didn't I think of that ...when it stops raining I'll take some comparo pics. ...;)

Should live up here in the Sunshine State..............NOT, winter is supposed to be dry & sunny here, what's going on? :o hasn't stopped raining for months

[ozscott]

My D2 tows and handles better than my D1 - wider track I suspect, but never measured, stiffer suspension and anti-roll bar etc are the reasons behind that. Offroad with CDL and ETC kicking in it goes further, but there is something about the D1 offroad - pliable, supremely comfortable in the way it walks over obstacles softly tucking wheels so far up the guards its silly (in that soft easy riding way that modern vehicles just cannot emulate)...I cannot get rid of my D1. It is the last of the non-ABS V8 autos. It is the ultimate in low maintenance rovering - the big thing for me was to change out the old lucas dizzy with play in it for a homoligation of Ford and Holden...never a problem with ignition since and that was about 50,000k ago...no more new caps every 10,000k, more power and torque, no intermittent misfire. Cheap and simple fix to the Prince of Darkness. At 300,000 my D1 V8 just keeps going hard and the old ZF changes nicely. They were a beautiful vehicle, especially with offset rims to widen the stance. Long live the D1. I suspect plenty will live on when others have gone to the yard in the sky.

Cheers!

[scarry]

I was talking comparable Ks of ownership, as the D2 got older, maintenence costs didn't rise that much over the years we owned it(sold it at 320,000ks)and looking at what is happening with the cost of parts now for the D3/4, I think the difference won't be that much and like we did with our D2, England and the USA were a great soarse of cheaper parts, you only have to look at Bi-Xenon light bulbs for the D4 as one example, from $500 each a bulb to as low as $67 a pair for the genuine replacement now, brake shoes and rotors are almost the same price as the D2, all the filters, oils, a new ECU from Land Rover for the D4 is $600, same price as the D2 was/is.

I think as the D4 gets older prices and aftermaket parts will become more available at cheaper prices keeping the cost of maintenence comparable to a point, I mean I'm not saying they will be the same, but they won't be all that different, although a different story if your getting your work done by a Land Rover dealer, but we aren't, so our costs are considerably less.

Baz.

Umm,yes ,but....

Over time as the vehicle gets older,comparing the two,the D3/4 is going to cost you a lot more,looking at comparable k's and age.

Here are a couple of examples.
Fully independant air suspension repair costs over solid axles,coils and shocks.
Six speed auto and new style T/C compared to four speed and a T/C that has been around for a long time.
Engine repairs,body off,well we won't go there.
Timing belts for the 2.7
More complicated electronics in the D3/4,software upgrades,etc.

Sure TD5 had a few issues,oil in harness,leaking fuel reg etc,these are not really biggies.Actually probably cost less than a timing belt change in a D3.

Also with the D3/4 range,many of these 'common' issues that the TD5 had don't seem to be appearing,yet.

Also going to a good indy for repairs is going to save $,as is doing the work yourself.

Agree service parts for D3/4 range are a lot cheaper than they were and prices will continue to fall.

But in the long run,over the life of the vehicle,aD3/4 is going to cost a lot more,as there is more to go wrong.

Don't get me wrong the D3/4 are fantastic vehicles,but i still love the D2.

On another note,one of my brothers has a D1,V8 bought it one year old.Has around 350K on it.Had a leaky power steering pump,needed a rebuild,and he has just done the heads including new cam,etc as they were leaking coolant.
That is all the repairs that have been done to the vehicle,apart from normal servicing.:)

Just my 2 cents worth.

[ozscott]

Couldnt agreee more Scarry - if you are looking for a cheap to maintain mud puppy the D1 is the go - and the D2 isnt too bad either, but not as cheap to run. My D1 with 300,000 of short run miles (!!) has only had a new radiator and wheel cylinder and brake booster - all cheap and easy servicing (it has had the new dizzy as indicated above also). NO suspensions bushes, axles, diffs etc. I know plenty of D1 V8's with higher mileage and not major component changes. The auto's go and go also.

And...perhaps oddly they drive nicely. Its a change of pace - slow cornering, but safe. Good brakes, including 4 spot front calipers. Comfortable seating front and rear; commanding driving position (and who could forget...the last of the Camel discos...).

Cheers!

[lpj]

And going slow over obstacles has gotta be by far better for fatigue on your vehicle and its components.[/QUOTE]

Not to mention the damage to the bush that huge tyres, excessive wheel spin and speed does.

Heavily modified bush bashing vehicles do little for the public image of 4 wheel drivers.

[Tombie]

Love what you've done to both :D, but one argument that hasn't come up yet................ which one would you tour around Oz towing a, say 16'6", pop-top van. Oh & do the Savannah Way & Gibb River Rd's for example :).

I'd take my D4 over my highly modified D2....

[101RRS]

The big difference between Terry's Ds is that the D1 works where the D3 is always in being repaired and is rarely on the road :wasntme:

[TerryO]

The big difference between Terry's Ds is that the D1 works where the D3 is always in being repaired and is rarely on the road :wasntme:

Two can play at that game ...:angel:

The difference between my Disco's and Garry's Range Rover Sport is my Land Rovers haven't needed to be rescued when stuck in 6 inches of water and mud by an old Freelander! ...:twisted:

[101RRS]

Well at least it was my Freelander :D. And it wasn't 6" of water and mud - 2 foot of water and mud.

[TerryO]

Well the sun came out today for a brief period so i got some pics of all three Disco's together. The D2 has 255/60/18's fitted rather than the liquorice strap standard sized tyres, so its a bit taller than standard but still heaps lower than the D1 and D3.

Any way the photo's say it all regarding the various heights and ground clearances of all three vehicles.

Cheers,
Terry
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[vogue]

Very nice:D
The D2 looks small next to the other two.

[ozscott]

Nice. A stock d2 with standard 16 in wheels appears to have more clearance than a d1 in same trim.

Cheers

[bell1975]

Curse you Terry....your D3 is making me think nasty thoughts about getting rid of the D2! :cool:

Your photos show that the D2 looks like a lightweight...your D3 has presence.

Damn it looks good.

[ozscott]

Its hardly a fair representation. The D2 when properly kitted up is a very serious looking weapon and in my view the best shape that LR made. I mean the D1 is the meanest looking of the three - just picture the bolder panels of the D2 but with the same trick kit as the D1 photographed...

Cheers

[~Rich~]

Curse you Terry....your D3 is making me think nasty thoughts about getting rid of the D2! :cool:

Your photos show that the D2 looks like a lightweight...your D3 has presence.

Damn it looks good.

Take one for a drive then, that will sell the deal. ;)

[bell1975]

Take one for a drive then, that will sell the deal. ;)

Noooooo.....don't make me do that. There's a wife, kids, mortgage, 3rd child on the way, etc. She'd never let me do it at the moment.

Next year however...

[~Rich~]

Noooooo.....don't make me do that. There's a wife, kids, mortgage, 3rd child on the way, etc. She'd never let me do it at the moment.

Next year however...

Easy fix - take your wife & kids on the test drive!

[bell1975]

Easy fix - take your wife & kids on the test drive!

Ha! Good one...maybe the bank manager too!:angel: