how i selected my a synthetic rope

[weeds]

i had a lengthy discussion with a couple of guys here at work...we are wanting to convert our steel wire winches to synthetic and were mulling over which rope to buy and whether we are getting value for money. i.e. braking strain, SWL, WLL, 8 strand v 12 strand, cheap, expensive etc etc.

i read and click all the links on DB's thread than hopped on the phone.......

i jagged chatting to an australian manufacturer of synthetic rope....and to his credit he didn't bag any of the ropes on the market. he was a wholesaler so he couldn't sell to me even though spend at least 30min chatting to me......he was mainly interested in getting to right info out there, he only put me onto one of the re-sellers right at the end of the conversation.

Synthetic rope is UHMWPE Fiber rope (Ultra-High molecular weight polyethylene)

Dyneema (Europe) and Spectra (America?) were the first to produce this product, each were given a market share years ago due to some sort of court ruling........now there are around 8 or 9 factories producing UHMWPE fibre (mostly in china)

just because your rope is labelled dyneema doesn't mean its from the dyneema factory........no real cause for alarm but everybody is using the name

Spectra and Dyneema are known brands and you would assume can be trusted, the other manufacturers have come on board with varying level of product.

looks like i am going to chase down a rope that uses spectra or dyneema fibre.....not sure how many supplier know which factory the fibre comes from.

8 v 12 strand, no real differences here it just the way the rope is constructed apart from the 12 strand does not deform as much as the 8 strand. the biggest thing to check is actually measure the thicknes of your rope i.e. are you only getting 9.8mm of rope instead of the 10mm.....9.8mm will break before 10mm.

12 strand is for me
oh and i might just take my verniers along to see if i'm getting all of my rope
hawse or rollers - most of the ebay seller advertise hawse only......but why?? rollers look after the rope way better than hawse i.e. no friction = less heat build up. the only risk with roller is the pinch point in the corners, if its a quality roller where they are nice and close with enough overlap than the pinch point is not an issue. hawse fairleads biggest risk is after a long winch with the rope going over the one point is the heat build up esp. if you stop the winch and keep it under load. by doing this all the heat on the hawse is not going through one point on the rope.....you have now decreased the strength in the rope at that point.

a custom hawse from nugg_t for me only because i cannot be botheres making rollers to suit my winch
what size rope.........all my research today confirm you will not get a SWL or WLL with your systhetic rope........the best you will get is a breaking strain. a rule of thumb used in the industry is what ever the the rating of your winch is in pounds select a rope that has a breaking strain arond the same figure in kilograms i.e. 9000lb winch = 9000kg breaking strain rope

i have ditched all online seller that do not state a breaking strain of there rope
i'm going to use the rule of thumb above
metal eyelet or not. he indicated there was not much differance i.e. its a personal preference, if it doesn't have a metal eyelet and it should have a protective sheath around the eye. he also indicated the bigger diameter of the pin going through the eyelet (metal or not) the better. the biggest issue with damaging the rope near the eyelet is those who drive the eyelet in between the roller or hawse, this not only damages the rope but also damages the roller or hawse i.e. small nicks which will cut the odd fibre here and there

no metal eyelet for me
in the wash up he asked what my rig was set up for, comp work or touring......mine is a tourer so he basically said any of the 10mm ropes on the market where they are prepared to state the breaking strain would be fine

this guy is in and around the 4wd comp scene, i really liked how he didn't bag any of the products out there on the market....the perfect guy to speak at a 4wd club meeting

anyways, i have decided to go with an australian manufactured rope by Whittam Ropes, funny how good service gets a sale.......my local supplier is dobinson springs. i am going with the Auz12 10mm x 40m (which is not listed on there website) 9000kg braking strain. they do have a comp spec rope but i don't think it.......

Winch Accessories - DSS (http://www.dobinsonsprings.com/accessories/winch-accessories.php)

Whittam Ropes – Manufacture of high quality rope and cordage (http://whittamropes.com.au/?page_id=12)

hopefully that helps others out......i'm sure there are other views for and against

[Pedro_The_Swift]

you must be great at picking gifts---;)

I'd buy your choice after reading that Weeds.:cool:

[roverrescue]

Only comment I would make weeds would be to consider going to a larger diam rope for the winch drum.
Depending on where and what you winch 10mm will get fluffy pretty quickly and thereby reduce its BS.
It wont be too much more to spool the winch drum with 12mm for long term fray protection. I have had 12mm chinese special rope on for >5 years now. It would have winched kilometres in that time. It is terribly frayed in places but still has not failed.
In its frayed state it is still thicker than much of the 10mm stuff I have layed hands on.

Definitiely 10mm for winch extension sections though - they dont seem to get as hard a time as the spooled rope.

S

[goingbush]

Great info.

I changed my roller fairlead to alloy hawse when I changed from Steel wire rope to synthetic because of the knurling that had worn into the rollers from the wire, that could soon damage your plastic rope.

How do you hold its shape to measure it with a vernier ? it would be like measuring a piece of soggy macaroni

I ordered mine from China about 12 months ago just because its was so cheap & free post, 40m x10mm 9.5t w thimble & 2m rope cover

I had to winch a Dyna tipper with a full load of screenings back onto a driveway , single line pull thru a snatchblock on a tree with a doubled over 8 ton tree protector , broke the tree protector :eek:, winch rope looks ugly where is squashes into itself and bunches up on the drum but I find it dosent get damaged anywhere as near as much as steel.

As prev post , yes my 10mm rope is getting fluffy, I will take that advice and swap to 12mm when due.

[weeds]

@ roverescue, we all started out looking at 12mm, I have the room on my PTO winch but the standard electric winches would loose a fair bit in length with 12mm fitted

@ goingbush lol will see what happens with the vernier

[roverrescue]

Ideally you want a short rope on your drum so you are always low down on the 2nd or 3rd wrap to maximise pull.
Then have copious lengths of extension to get you from goop to solidity.

I have 25 - 30m of 12mm on a 12000lb winch and then carry up to 3 hanks of 30m in length of ropes.

In some cases I have used just under 200m to get to solid anchor.

S

[Tank]

i had a lengthy discussion with a couple of guys here at work...we are wanting to convert our steel wire winches to synthetic and were mulling over which rope to buy and whether we are getting value for money. i.e. braking strain, SWL, WLL, 8 strand v 12 strand, cheap, expensive etc etc.

i read and click all the links on DB's thread than hopped on the phone.......

i jagged chatting to an australian manufacturer of synthetic rope....and to his credit he didn't bag any of the ropes on the market. he was a wholesaler so he couldn't sell to me even though spend at least 30min chatting to me......he was mainly interested in getting to right info out there, he only put me onto one of the re-sellers right at the end of the conversation.

Synthetic rope is UHMWPE Fiber rope (Ultra-High molecular weight polyethylene)

Dyneema (Europe) and Spectra (America?) were the first to produce this product, each were given a market share years ago due to some sort of court ruling........now there are around 8 or 9 factories producing UHMWPE fibre (mostly in china)

just because your rope is labelled dyneema doesn't mean its from the dyneema factory........no real cause for alarm but everybody is using the name

Spectra and Dyneema are known brands and you would assume can be trusted, the other manufacturers have come on board with varying level of product.

looks like i am going to chase down a rope that uses spectra or dyneema fibre.....not sure how many supplier know which factory the fibre comes from.

8 v 12 strand, no real differences here it just the way the rope is constructed apart from the 12 strand does not deform as much as the 8 strand. the biggest thing to check is actually measure the thicknes of your rope i.e. are you only getting 9.8mm of rope instead of the 10mm.....9.8mm will break before 10mm.

12 strand is for me
oh and i might just take my verniers along to see if i'm getting all of my rope
hawse or rollers - most of the ebay seller advertise hawse only......but why?? rollers look after the rope way better than hawse i.e. no friction = less heat build up. the only risk with roller is the pinch point in the corners, if its a quality roller where they are nice and close with enough overlap than the pinch point is not an issue. hawse fairleads biggest risk is after a long winch with the rope going over the one point is the heat build up esp. if you stop the winch and keep it under load. by doing this all the heat on the hawse is not going through one point on the rope.....you have now decreased the strength in the rope at that point.

a custom hawse from nugg_t for me only because i cannot be botheres making rollers to suit my winch
what size rope.........all my research today confirm you will not get a SWL or WLL with your systhetic rope........the best you will get is a breaking strain. a rule of thumb used in the industry is what ever the the rating of your winch is in pounds select a rope that has a breaking strain arond the same figure in kilograms i.e. 9000lb winch = 9000kg breaking strain rope

i have ditched all online seller that do not state a breaking strain of there rope
i'm going to use the rule of thumb above
metal eyelet or not. he indicated there was not much differance i.e. its a personal preference, if it doesn't have a metal eyelet and it should have a protective sheath around the eye. he also indicated the bigger diameter of the pin going through the eyelet (metal or not) the better. the biggest issue with damaging the rope near the eyelet is those who drive the eyelet in between the roller or hawse, this not only damages the rope but also damages the roller or hawse i.e. small nicks which will cut the odd fibre here and there

no metal eyelet for me
in the wash up he asked what my rig was set up for, comp work or touring......mine is a tourer so he basically said any of the 10mm ropes on the market where they are prepared to state the breaking strain would be fine

this guy is in and around the 4wd comp scene, i really liked how he didn't bag any of the products out there on the market....the perfect guy to speak at a 4wd club meeting

anyways, i have decided to go with an australian manufactured rope by Whittam Ropes, funny how good service gets a sale.......my local supplier is dobinson springs. i am going with the Auz12 10mm x 40m (which is not listed on there website) 9000kg braking strain. they do have a comp spec rope but i don't think it.......

Winch Accessories - DSS (http://www.dobinsonsprings.com/accessories/winch-accessories.php)

Whittam Ropes – Manufacture of high quality rope and cordage (http://whittamropes.com.au/?page_id=12)

hopefully that helps others out......i'm sure there are other views for and against
I can guarantee that if your rope breaks under load it will be at the eye of the rope (unless it has been damaged elsewhere on the rope), especially if you use a hook with the small pin. If you insist on not using a metal Thimble eye on your rope, then at least use a shackle (about 4T SWL) as it will have a thicker pin than a hook and will put much less strain on the eye of your rope.
Why dont you want to use a Thimble Eyelet on your rope? Regards Frank.

[weeds]

Why dont you want to use a Thimble Eyelet on your rope? Regards Frank.

main reason is because the pre-made rope i am buying does not have a thimble fitted.......

i did mention above its preferred to use the biggest sized pin you have throught the eyelet.....i must go and see what size my shackles are

as yes a good point which can be considered as part of your purchase...........the reason i researched the topic so much because i just wasn't sure about some of the ropes on the market. a few other lads here at work look at price only and brought the cheapest they could find.

look forward to other members input on rope selection......

[Tank]

It is simplicity itself to fit a thimble, just slip it into place and use some twine/cord to whip it to the rope, start an inch or so back from the eye and wrap up to the thimble or continue right arond the thimble, Regards Frank.

[SimonM]

Here is another manufacturer of rope using Dyneema®SK75 - Donaghys (https://www.donaghys.com/rope-and-cordage/products/industrial-and-safety-braids/specialty-arborist/ocean12-rigging-crane-line).

I recently purchased some 3mm rope for my hammock whoopie slings, but they have larger diameter rope to suit winch applications.

This is where I got it from Rope Galore (http://www.ropegalore.com.au/dyneema-r-high-strength-rope/).

[weeds]

Here is another manufacturer of rope using Dyneema®SK75 - Donaghys (https://www.donaghys.com/rope-and-cordage/products/industrial-and-safety-braids/specialty-arborist/ocean12-rigging-crane-line).

I recently purchased some 3mm rope for my hammock whoopie slings, but they have larger diameter rope to suit winch applications.

This is where I got it from Rope Galore (http://www.ropegalore.com.au/dyneema-r-high-strength-rope/).

yes i found the product............it at the top end of price

[SimonM]

yes i found the product............it at the top end of price

Is that with their current sale of 33% off + 5% if you have the sales code ;)?

[SimonM]

Hey Weeds,

Thanks for putting up this information. I emailed Russell Whittam today and it is considerably cheaper than Ocean 12, and Aussie made to boot. I will be switching over to Whittam rope from now on I think.

[Blknight.aus]

its worth putting long eyes on...

its pretty quick and easy to feed 2 long eyes through each other to join 2 ropes and it will feed onto the winch if you need it to.

[DoctorJ]

we sell them at work and for the simple reason they are a quality rope made here in Australia, the only thing i would mention would be that the 40 metre rope more than likely wont fit in lo mount winches it is advised to go for the 30 metre variant, feel free to pm me if you need further info

cheers
Julian

[SimonM]

http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/Technical%20Bulletins/TB_CM_Rope%20Selection%20Usage%20Retirement_MAY201 3_WEB.pdf

[Tank]

http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/Technical%20Bulletins/TB_CM_Rope%20Selection%20Usage%20Retirement_MAY201 3_WEB.pdf
http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/...AY2013_WEB.pdf (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=0f96a38a5a863735e17251f4eccd9b82&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aulro.com%2Fafvb%2Frecovery%2 F178841-how-i-selected-my-synthetic-rope-2.html&v=1&libId=2744f05e-da3b-4028-9298-6de67259ad99&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.samsonrope.com%2FDocuments%2F Technical%2520Bulletins%2FTB_CM_Rope%2520Selection %2520Usage%2520Retirement_MAY2013_WEB.pdf&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aulro.com%2Fafvb%2Frecovery%2 F&title=how%20i%20selected%20my%20a%20synthetic%20ro pe%20-%20Page%202%20-%20Australian%20Land%20Rover%20Owners&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.samsonrope.com%2FDocuments%2F ...AY2013_WEB.pdf&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13775890912778)
__________________


The above web-site would be a good addition to the Good Oil section, everyone that uses a rope on their winch should read this, Thanks Simon, Regards Frank.

[SimonM]

The above web-site would be a good addition to the Good Oil section, everyone that uses a rope on their winch should read this, Thanks Simon, Regards Frank.

No worries Frank. Hope you are well.

[FeatherWeightDriver]

http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/Technical%20Bulletins/TB_CM_Rope%20Selection%20Usage%20Retirement_MAY201 3_WEB.pdf

Great link - thanks!

As an aside rock climbing ropes (core-dependent double braids) are rated for a specific number of falls at the maximum fall factor and/or over a specific edge radius. For anyone interested in some light reading about the forces involved in various dynamic load scenarios, try this link: BEAL ROPES - CLIMBING ROPE - ALPINISM ROPE - How to Choose a Climbing Rope (http://bealplanet.com/sport/anglais/facteurdechute.php) or the certification processes: http://www.bealplanet.com/portail-2006/private/Sport/100dpi_Beal_Sport_2012_GB.pdf

Compare and contrast against the way winch line is rated, which is why you should never use a winch in such a way that turns it in to life support equipment. ;)

[weeds]

Bump for Ranga

[twr7cx]

From briefly reading this, it seemed that a fair few of you have converted your steel cable winch setup to rope? Firstly, why? Secondly, I thought there was a difference in the drum setup between a steel cable winch and a rope unit, which prevented swapping over like this?

[weeds]

From briefly reading this, it seemed that a fair few of you have converted your steel cable winch setup to rope? Firstly, why? Secondly, I thought there was a difference in the drum setup between a steel cable winch and a rope unit, which prevented swapping over like this?

Not that I have fitted mine yet........

Firstly......my steel cable has a couple of kinks in it........I also spent a day out with the boys from dirty weekends and had to set my winch up in three or four positions, it was muddy, slippery and I feel it would have been slightly easier with a soft rope....

Secondly......I have a PTO so no heat build up form the brake to worry about. I believe with electric you are alright if it's got an external brake.....if you have an internal brake than it's only an issue when if you are lowering/winching out under load

[Graeme]

Not that I have fitted mine yet........
Me neither although only because there's no power to the winch yet but at least its mounted.

I changed to synthetic rope because it weighs much less, its safer if it breaks, its easier to handle and it floats. I know I'll have to be very mindful of heat buildup if winding out under load.

[HarryO]

Mmmmmmm - If only this great thread was posted / spotted a little earlier :( - I have broken the rule of thumb regarding "9000lbs winch = 9000kgs rope", 10mm vrs 12mm advice, and may others....

I purchased the "Dyneema SK75 Synthetic Winch Rope, Cable 10mm x 30m, 12000lbs, Replacement" of ebay from Aussie supplier alaka_shadesail (http://www.ebay.com.au/usr/alaka_shadesail) Arrived real quick, fits winch nicely but after reading this thread I am worried I may have stuffed up. Now trying to find out from him exactly what the 12000lbs rating represents :(.

[Redback]

Just some info and another alterative to Dyneema:p

Plasma Vs Dyneema - PlasmaRope.com.au - Fibre winch ropes and extension kits (http://www.plasmarope.com.au/plasma-vs-dyneema.html)

Baz.

[Bush65]

....if you have an internal brake than it's only an issue when if you are lowering/winching out under load
That statement is very misleading.

The fact is that with a brake inside the winch drum, winding out creates the same damaging heat whether under load or no load whatsoever. This is because the brake is applied by the drum rotating in the direction that spools the rope out.

The brake doesn't know, or care, whether the tension in the rope is 1 Newton or 100 kiloNewton, it is just a dumb mechanical device. When powering out, the motor has to supply enough torque to overcome the friction torque from the brake and that is where the heat comes from.

Because the mass of the drum has capacity to absorb some heat before the temperature rises enough to cause an issue with synthetic rope, a small number of drum rotations can be tolerated.

With winches that have an internal brake you should always engage free spool and pull the rope out manually, if you use synthetic rope. Edit: this excludes them from use when it is necessary to lower under load.

[weeds]

That statement is very misleading.

The fact is that with a brake inside the winch drum, winding out creates the same damaging heat whether under load or no load whatsoever. This is because the brake is applied by the drum rotating in the direction that spools the rope out.

The brake doesn't know, or care, whether the tension in the rope is 1 Newton or 100 kiloNewton, it is just a dumb mechanical device. When powering out, the motor has to supply enough torque to overcome the friction torque from the brake and that is where the heat comes from.

Because the mass of the drum has capacity to absorb some heat before the temperature rises enough to cause an issue with synthetic rope, a small number of drum rotations can be tolerated.

With winches that have an internal brake you should always engage free spool and pull the rope out manually, if you use synthetic rope. Edit: this excludes them from use when it is necessary to lower under load.

There you go.....a much better explanation

[urumax82]

hey guys i just bought some 12mm-25m dyneema from a rigging store $300 they made an eyelet on one end and crimped a electrical eye to connect the other end to the drum. I ask them if i needed to put an metal eyelet on the loop they made for the hook but said there is no need ??? what you think

[Tank]

hey guys i just bought some 12mm-25m dyneema from a rigging store $300 they made an eyelet on one end and crimped a electrical eye to connect the other end to the drum. I ask them if i needed to put an metal eyelet on the loop they made for the hook but said there is no need ??? what you think
I think your rigging store is a lot slack, easiest thing in the world to fit a thimble (metal eyelet), read my post #7 this thread, Regards Frank.

[weeds]

Bump for andrew

[Blknight.aus]

From briefly reading this, it seemed that a fair few of you have converted your steel cable winch setup to rope? Firstly, why? Secondly, I thought there was a difference in the drum setup between a steel cable winch and a rope unit, which prevented swapping over like this?

mostly because it is getting cheaper, its light, easy and safe to handle, easy to clean and is easy to rejoin in an emergancy to get you winching again.

the suitability of the winch drum is governed by it being grooved to start the bottom layer of a wire rope or a flat drum, if you have a flat drum you're good to go. If its a drum with an in drum anchor for the winch cable you should crimp an aglet onto the end of the rope or an electrical crimp of the right size and cut the eye off of it. If its a side mount on the flange of the drum crimp on an electrical eyelet and you're good to go. in a pinch you can tie a timber hitch or choke hitch around the drum and just hold tension on it till it takes up tension on the recovery.


Mmmmmmm - If only this great thread was posted / spotted a little earlier :( - I have broken the rule of thumb regarding "9000lbs winch = 9000kgs rope", 10mm vrs 12mm advice, and may others....

I purchased the "Dyneema SK75 Synthetic Winch Rope, Cable 10mm x 30m, 12000lbs, Replacement" of ebay from Aussie supplier alaka_shadesail (http://www.ebay.com.au/usr/alaka_shadesail) Arrived real quick, fits winch nicely but after reading this thread I am worried I may have stuffed up. Now trying to find out from him exactly what the 12000lbs rating represents :(.

most likely the minimum guaranteed breaking strain you should use this number and punch it through basic rigging numbers to come up with the SWL when you're using it. best guess on a single line pull you should be good to pull about 3.5t(line pull not vehicle weight) while staying within all the safety margins.


That statement is very misleading.

The fact is that with a brake inside the winch drum, winding out creates the same damaging heat whether under load or no load whatsoever. This is because the brake is applied by the drum rotating in the direction that spools the rope out.

The brake doesn't know, or care, whether the tension in the rope is 1 Newton or 100 kiloNewton, it is just a dumb mechanical device. When powering out, the motor has to supply enough torque to overcome the friction torque from the brake and that is where the heat comes from.

Because the mass of the drum has capacity to absorb some heat before the temperature rises enough to cause an issue with synthetic rope, a small number of drum rotations can be tolerated.

With winches that have an internal brake you should always engage free spool and pull the rope out manually, if you use synthetic rope. Edit: this excludes them from use when it is necessary to lower under load.

most electric winches have the brake on the drive shaft from the motor. This uses the gearbox to increase the brake torque to the drum. These are the worst for heat on wind out. and if you do electric winch out often you should check it for its ability to hold load. Some other winches have the brake on the gearbox side of the drum inside the gearbox, these are spring applied and cam released. the only time these add heat to the drum is when the brakes ability to hold the load is exceeded and the brake slips. When this happens things get really hot really fast. In either setup, in most cases when you find out the brake wont hold you're not going to be worried about the rope, or the brake or anything else other than not being anywhere near whats unfolding followed by hoping that everyone else got as far away as you did.


hey guys i just bought some 12mm-25m dyneema from a rigging store $300 they made an eyelet on one end and crimped a electrical eye to connect the other end to the drum. I ask them if i needed to put an metal eyelet on the loop they made for the hook but said there is no need ??? what you think

no need for an eyelet in synthetic rope but you do want the eyelet to be big enough to comfortably feed a very large shackle pin through.

I like to set the eyes up so they are about 40-60cms long when finished, long enough to sit over the pully of a snatch block and keep the included angle at the splice under 45 degrees. such a large eye also makes it very easy to bend other ropes onto the eye when you want to join it and gives you an easy way of grabbing the rope when you need to haul it off the drum.

[86mud]

Thanks Kelvin for resurrecting this thread.

I am still a little confused. I have a Warn 9500xd electric winch on the front of the 130. The 130 is weighs an average of 3t.

The thought of using 12mm over 10mm gives me more peace of mind, but I doubt I'd fit 30m on the drum.

and I need to look for a rope with the most strands?

Thanks

[weeds]

I purchased three ropes, one for myself and a mate and than we cut the third one in half so they could be used as winch extensions. You could at fit 20m of 12mm to the winch than you would have a 10m extension.

I had plenty of room on the PTO drum to fit rope.