Defender TD5 vs Puma - 2nd hand buyer guide

[rar110]

I thought I'd start a tread on the TD5 vs Puma Defender model as I could one day move up to the 20th or 21st century and be a buyer of a newer Defender that my wife might be keener to do trips in (not a chance at the moment but you need to have hope).

Reading a few threads Ive picked up that the Puma is much more comfortable a vehicle and nice inside. Ive driven Newhue's 130 and was quite impressed in terms of power, torque, interior design and engine noise. However, the Puma seems to have a high incidence of diff and gearbox/transfer failures. And, those sorts of problems are hugely expensive if you don't have a warranty which makes me wary. However, Im getting the feeling that later production models are having fewer problems i.e the 2.2l Puma. Production of the Puma is probably going to finish at the end of next year, with 2014/5 Defender destined to have a mono chassis and completely new shape.

The td5 got itself a very good reputation particularly at the end of the production in 2006. The 2002 to 2006 models seem to be very reliable and have few problems (although I would probably at least carry a spare fuel pump and carby cleaner for oil in the loom problem) even though they went for a banjo diff. Its interior is not as refined as a Puma but is easily good enough for me.

So I thought I'd throw it open for discussion, particularly as it seems quite a few people on here have owned both.

thanks

[tuesdayfox]

hi rar110,
are you coming to the landy expo?
why dont ya take a drive in a 2.2. would love to see your face after driving one.

2.2 has engine blanket and hence a lot quiter
and i think land rover must have fixed the driveline problem as the cost of the warranty job that could have been avoided is quite significant.....:eek::eek::eek:

just remember to factor in the placebo effects that people experience with their landies......:D

[BilboBoggles]

I own a 03 TD5, and a 2013 PUMA. I've traded an MY09 PUMA on the MY13.

I like the TD5, and compared to the MY09, I felt the TD5 was better, it sounded and felt much nicer to drive. I think the TD5 was also better built with less cost cutting on little things. But hands down the MY13 2.2 beats both of them, its so much quieter, and smoother.

Most TD5's are now getting on in years and k's. I've spent a large fortune in maintenance on the MY03 over the years, as in $3000-8000 per year. Flywheels, Harmonic Balancers and a number of other maintenance tasks. I think you can spend an awful lot of money maintaining a TD5. All the better if you can do the work yourself, but even then the parts are not always cheap. Mine has 220,000 on it now, I don't think it's a really bad example - 220 out of the DMF was not too bad really, but still expensive to fix.

The MY09 Puma was nice, interior was better than the TD5 by a long way, the AC worked really well. But I could never get used to the roughness of the drivetrain, or the rattle of that engine. IT was bloody awful to drive, I don't think I ever got a nice gear change out of it. Whereas the TD5 I never get a bad shift. I suspect many of the issues were down to the EGR valve. Had that changed a few times, improved for a bit and then went back to crap. I hated the engine tone of that one. There is a nice defender noise (TD5) and then a rough nasty broken sound (2.4). I also have a few series 2a's and so I'm not adverse to a bit of noise, in fact I just organised to buy a V8 county, now that will be a nice noise...

The MY13 with the 2.2 is my favorite. It's got everything the MY09, but a much nicer engine. Many of the little issues I had with the MY09 have not happened with the MY13. (Both my MY03 and MY09 went through 3 diffs each in the firs few thousand k's, and they both leaked water badly.). No longer does the whole vehicle rattle to a stop when you turn it off, the 2.2 just .. stops... silently (well as close as you can get). It also does not do any weird rough running white smoke blowing crap that that 2.4 did when starting from cold, it just .. starts.! The traction control seems to work better on the 2.2 compared to the 2.4, not sure what changed there. About the only complaint I have is the entire hose situation under the bonnet. Looks like a Freddy Kruger nightmare, and I've already had an intercooler hose pop, I think they make those out of Fast Food eating diseased cow arteries.

I do think though that in time the 2.4 and the 2.2 will prove to be cheaper to maintain than the TD5, less expensive parts to wear out (no DMF for example).

Offroad - the Puma has better traction control, but less articulation (no sway bars on the 03 TD5).

[isuzurover]

Just install puma seats and dash into yours and you will have the best possible combination of 110 bits.

(and the Grubb's auto conversion kit if you want it to be a bit quieter on the highway).

[rar110]

hi rar110,
are you coming to the landy expo?
why dont ya take a drive in a 2.2. would love to see your face after driving one.

2.2 has engine blanket and hence a lot quiter
and i think land rover must have fixed the driveline problem as the cost of the warranty job that could have been avoided is quite significant.....:eek::eek::eek:

just remember to factor in the placebo effects that people experience with their landies......:D

No wont be going this year. Unfortunately it clashes with other commitments & I have a fuel tank leak which won't be fixed by then.

[rar110]

I own a 03 TD5, and a 2013 PUMA. I've traded an MY09 PUMA on the MY13.

I like the TD5, and compared to the MY09, I felt the TD5 was better, it sounded and felt much nicer to drive. I think the TD5 was also better built with less cost cutting on little things. But hands down the MY13 2.2 beats both of them, its so much quieter, and smoother.

Most TD5's are now getting on in years and k's. I've spent a large fortune in maintenance on the MY03 over the years, as in $3000-8000 per year. Flywheels, Harmonic Balancers and a number of other maintenance tasks. I think you can spend an awful lot of money maintaining a TD5. All the better if you can do the work yourself, but even then the parts are not always cheap. Mine has 220,000 on it now, I don't think it's a really bad example - 220 out of the DMF was not too bad really, but still expensive to fix.

The MY09 Puma was nice, interior was better than the TD5 by a long way, the AC worked really well. But I could never get used to the roughness of the drivetrain, or the rattle of that engine. IT was bloody awful to drive, I don't think I ever got a nice gear change out of it. Whereas the TD5 I never get a bad shift. I suspect many of the issues were down to the EGR valve. Had that changed a few times, improved for a bit and then went back to crap. I hated the engine tone of that one. There is a nice defender noise (TD5) and then a rough nasty broken sound (2.4). I also have a few series 2a's and so I'm not adverse to a bit of noise, in fact I just organised to buy a V8 county, now that will be a nice noise...

The MY13 with the 2.2 is my favorite. It's got everything the MY09, but a much nicer engine. Many of the little issues I had with the MY09 have not happened with the MY13. (Both my MY03 and MY09 went through 3 diffs each in the firs few thousand k's, and they both leaked water badly.). No longer does the whole vehicle rattle to a stop when you turn it off, the 2.2 just .. stops... silently (well as close as you can get). It also does not do any weird rough running white smoke blowing crap that that 2.4 did when starting from cold, it just .. starts.! The traction control seems to work better on the 2.2 compared to the 2.4, not sure what changed there. About the only complaint I have is the entire hose situation under the bonnet. Looks like a Freddy Kruger nightmare, and I've already had an intercooler hose pop, I think they make those out of Fast Food eating diseased cow arteries.

I do think though that in time the 2.4 and the 2.2 will prove to be cheaper to maintain than the TD5, less expensive parts to wear out (no DMF for example).

Offroad - the Puma has better traction control, but less articulation (no sway bars on the 03 TD5).

Great write up - thanks.

[rar110]

Just install puma seats and dash into yours and you will have the best possible combination of 110 bits.

(and the Grubb's auto conversion kit if you want it to be a bit quieter on the highway).

That would help, but another issue is time availability to fix niggly things. Time availability will only get worse. It's a great vehicle, strong, and SIMPLE, and really well set up now. Just doesn't tick the comfort box for long highway stretches. I'll probably continue noise mitigation efforts and see how that goes.

[Summiitt]

I'm onto my third 130 puma, it's running alongside a chipped td5 130 tray top that one of my employees drive. We do forestry/bush work and while the td5 has been great, I could never go back to driving one. The gear ratios are hopeless for the torque of the motor, that's where the 6speed leaves the old 5 speed for dead, the torque of the 2.2is brilliant considering what it's trying to move. The interiors are far better as far as dust sealing goes and it's light years ahead on the open road with the extra gear. Mind you we do operate the utes at about 3200kg gvm and run them off road at or above those weights. As for driveline issues, havnt had any, maybe I'm lucky but I'm not exactly gentle on the vehicles and drive them pretty hard..I'd aim for a 2010 onwards, and remember they don't really free up until about 45,000km.

[tbdefender]

get a 300TDI, no electronic dramas at all! I'm never trading up, everything i hear about anything from the TD5 on is enough to make me stay happy with a 300TDI. I honestly think u buy a defender to 'drive it' not be 'driven around in it' and the noise is part of the 'experience'.

I always say if i was going to look at an upgrade id just spend more on my 98 than a newer option. Even the guy who i bought mine from had just bought a 2012 for 'his wife' and told me in a private moment that he didn't want to sell the 98 because he preferred it.

Thats my opinion anyhow.

[Scallops]

07 Puma owner here - original diffs and box - all good. You hear about ones with trouble, not all the rest that are perfectly OK.

[wally]

I'm currently running a 300Tdi 130 and a 2012 130. I've had various Tdi Defenders and also a Td5 110. The 2.2, the Td5, and one of the Tdis were bought new. I've loved them all but when I look back on it all, I've had far more dramas with the Tdis than the others. The only issue I had in the four years of Td5 ownership was the fuel pump which I had to replace once. The 2.2 so far has only done 8500km and the only problem I've had was a minor A/C one. Otherwise it's performed faultlessly, and I'm growing to like it more all the time. At first (and probably because I spend so much time driving Tdis) it felt quite weird to drive but that was really a matter of getting used to its quirks and adjusting my driving style to suit. The six speed is fantastic, and combined with the 2.2, which by some spooky magic track appears to have bags of torque, it feels unstoppable. Even driven badly, it just doesn't stall. This is something that sets it apart from the Td5, which is easy to stall on hill starts or when towing. But the thing that I appreciate most is the quietness. It's easy to say that noise is a part of the Defender experience or whatever, but when you have less of it, you do appreciate it. Just look at how many people are soundproofing their Tdis. Most of my driving is on the highway and that's where the 2.2 feels relaxed, and I can actually hear my music. I like the puma dash. The old dash with its cheap plastics was rubbish, really, from the day it was introduced in the series 3. Overall, I'd find it pretty hard to argue in favour of the Td5. Having said all that though, I still maintain that if all of your driving is around town or slow bush work, the Tdi does it best.

[Samblers]

Search on my past threads... went through same thought process a year ago.

Drove a 2007 TD5 and a showroom Puma (all i could get hold of). Puma was better in every respect, hands-down. Much more refined and civilised - the wife and kids actually WANT to go in it... cant tell you how enabling this has been. We bought a 2010 model with a year to run on the warranty - allowing us to get rid of any niggles along the way (which there have been).

People ask crazy money for TD5's. Puma isnt really a lot more.

Another thing, seeing as youre in Brisbane - AIRCON.

Puma

[rar110]

I'm currently running a 300Tdi 130 and a 2012 130. I've had various Tdi Defenders and also a Td5 110. The 2.2, the Td5, and one of the Tdis were bought new. I've loved them all but when I look back on it all, I've had far more dramas with the Tdis than the others. The only issue I had in the four years of Td5 ownership was the fuel pump which I had to replace once. The 2.2 so far has only done 8500km and the only problem I've had was a minor A/C one. Otherwise it's performed faultlessly, and I'm growing to like it more all the time. At first (and probably because I spend so much time driving Tdis) it felt quite weird to drive but that was really a matter of getting used to its quirks and adjusting my driving style to suit. The six speed is fantastic, and combined with the 2.2, which by some spooky magic track appears to have bags of torque, it feels unstoppable. Even driven badly, it just doesn't stall. This is something that sets it apart from the Td5, which is easy to stall on hill starts or when towing. But the thing that I appreciate most is the quietness. It's easy to say that noise is a part of the Defender experience or whatever, but when you have less of it, you do appreciate it. Just look at how many people are soundproofing their Tdis. Most of my driving is on the highway and that's where the 2.2 feels relaxed, and I can actually hear my music. I like the puma dash. The old dash with its cheap plastics was rubbish, really, from the day it was introduced in the series 3. Overall, I'd find it pretty hard to argue in favour of the Td5. Having said all that though, I still maintain that if all of your driving is around town or slow bush work, the Tdi does it best.

Another great comparison. Thanks.

[rar110]

Search on my past threads... went through same thought process a year ago.

Drove a 2007 TD5 and a showroom Puma (all i could get hold of). Puma was better in every respect, hands-down. Much more refined and civilised - the wife and kids actually WANT to go in it... cant tell you how enabling this has been. We bought a 2010 model with a year to run on the warranty - allowing us to get rid of any niggles along the way (which there have been).

People ask crazy money for TD5's. Puma isnt really a lot more.

Another thing, seeing as youre in Brisbane - AIRCON.

Puma

Here is the thread Sambler started. Another great resource.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/161098-late-td5-early-puma.html

[rar110]

I'm onto my third 130 puma, it's running alongside a chipped td5 130 tray top that one of my employees drive. We do forestry/bush work and while the td5 has been great, I could never go back to driving one. The gear ratios are hopeless for the torque of the motor, that's where the 6speed leaves the old 5 speed for dead, the torque of the 2.2is brilliant considering what it's trying to move. The interiors are far better as far as dust sealing goes and it's light years ahead on the open road with the extra gear. Mind you we do operate the utes at about 3200kg gvm and run them off road at or above those weights. As for driveline issues, havnt had any, maybe I'm lucky but I'm not exactly gentle on the vehicles and drive them pretty hard..I'd aim for a 2010 onwards, and remember they don't really free up until about 45,000km.

Good to here they cope well with regular heavy loads.

[rar110]

get a 300TDI, no electronic dramas at all! I'm never trading up, everything i hear about anything from the TD5 on is enough to make me stay happy with a 300TDI. I honestly think u buy a defender to 'drive it' not be 'driven around in it' and the noise is part of the 'experience'.

I always say if i was going to look at an upgrade id just spend more on my 98 than a newer option. Even the guy who i bought mine from had just bought a 2012 for 'his wife' and told me in a private moment that he didn't want to sell the 98 because he preferred it.

Thats my opinion anyhow.

A 300tdi is a good vehicle. It proved itself on a recent desert trip with a great range of 110/130 vehicles. However the 300tdi isn't a great leap forward compared to my turbo perentie wagon.

[PAT303]

I have both a 98 Tdi and a 2011 TDCi and the TDCi wins hands down in every way,thats a lot coming from me as I'm a big Tdi fan. Pat

[Cobber]

Despite owning a TD5 ('03) I do think the Puma would be easier to live with day to day but in terms of driving it's much of a muchness IMO although I do like the gearing in the Puma better. Couldn't comment on owning a Puma and cost of that ownership but the TD5 isn't too bad. Mine's over 200k kms now, so little things are coming up for replacement and as said this isn't so bad if you can do some of the work yourself.

The major thing to keep in mind with a TD5 is that most will be pushing (if not over) 200000 kms now, however as long as it has been maintained it shouldn't be a drama :cool: if you can get one for a good price I'm not sure it would be worth paying double for a Puma? This is where you will need to consider other member's opinions on owning one :)

[rar110]

Despite owning a TD5 ('03) I do think the Puma would be easier to live with day to day but in terms of driving it's much of a muchness IMO although I do like the gearing in the Puma better. Couldn't comment on owning a Puma and cost of that ownership but the TD5 isn't too bad. Mine's over 200k kms now, so little things are coming up for replacement and as said this isn't so bad if you can do some of the work yourself.

The major thing to keep in mind with a TD5 is that most will be pushing (if not over) 200000 kms now, however as long as it has been maintained it shouldn't be a drama :cool: if you can get one for a good price I'm not sure it would be worth paying double for a Puma? This is where you will need to consider other member's opinions on owning one :)

TD5s with around the 150,000 km use seem to come on the market fairly regularly. Sometimes they are in the $18-21k range. However, they are generally priced in the $26 to $29,000 range. That's fairly high IMO when a 2.2 Puma wagon with moderate kms is as low as $39,000 (they don't last long admittedly). I've also seen some used 2.4 Puma wagons at new car prices.

[Chops]

Cant really comment on the TD5, but here's what we found, and subsequently did.

We were looking at getting a TD5 for touring etc, and took a couple for a drive. Although they seemed to have power etc, and I'm aware you can do a fair bit to them to make them even better.
Every one we drove, 4 off, were quite rough and noisy in the cab, but not very clunky-ish, not sure about aircon/heaters etc as we didn't try them.
Mrs not convinced we needed something that reminded her of Fred Flintstone (don't no-one be getting knickers' twisted,, woman's opinion :angel:)
Exit $20+G and check out new :eek: (Talking and doing are two very different things, I somehow feel rather sick at this point. Every mans dream is to have a new car of their desire,, but its a lot of coin,,,,,,)

Took a Puma for a drive, :D Now she's more than happy to traverse this great continent :D

I drive the Puma fairly hard, city traffic sucks, and there is a lot of it here :(, so there's a lot of clunks in the driveline, out of gear and then into gear. Just cant seem to get around it, although I am trying to constantly improve my driving style, (ie; slowdown a bit)
The car in general is just so much better than the TD5, IMHO. It has plenty of power, which can be improved upon as well, and is quiet and temp control is definitely good. Leeanne's happy,,, and you know the general rule,,, "Happy wife, Happy Life",, (and no, that doesn't mean we're getting married,, :eek: twice was quite sufficient thanks ;))

It seems that all Defenders see some kind of improvements made to them, whether it be mechanical, aesthetical or comfort. Our Puma is no different. Its had a couple of problems which have been dealt with by warranty, and another couple still to go, but all good.
Leeanne wants new seats, I want lockers etc, the usual type mods we all want.

So, it ended up we went down the $50G+ line and went new, and absolutely love it to death and wouldn't change a thing, buying wise. Its a big investment, but well worth it I believe.
There are some good examples of the Puma that are now up for resale, maybe this is an option too.

Have I told anyone today yet,,,
I love my car :D

[Bess]

G day RAR110, We have had the pleasure of owning both TD5 Defender (01) & Discovery 2A (03) also a Discovery 2 V8 & now have a MY11 Defender 2.4ltr. Both our TD5s were purchased second hand. The Defender was not as well looked after buy the previous owner. The only real issue I had with her was some body rust in the upper rear and the clutch went at about 200K, just as I traded her in on the Discovery 2A TD5. Our first Defender was a ball to drive, she just did it slowly. I found I just slowed down when ever I drove her & was happy to cruise along. Loved the push out front vents & wished our new Puma still had them. Generally I have found the TD5 engine to be very reliable & have found that driveline & fuel pump issues to be the weakest links in all our previous Land Rovers. ( The only fault the V8 had was gearbox thrust washers wearing out & I replaced a failed coil pack) Now the Puma! well so far I'am very happy(as is the wife, she just loves Defenders LOL ) Engine performance is very good thou she is already re mapped ( Alive tuned via BD performance) She only has 30K on her so far but definitely much better for highway touring ( done the Melb to Syd run twice already, easy as) I haven't used her much off road yet but one little trek near Jindabyne showed the traction control to be very good indeed. All up I would say the Puma will be a better tourer then the TD5 but I do have a real soft spot the the last of the Landy motors. Just buy the best you can find with a high maintence record would be my advice.
Regards Chris.
P:S ; The Puma still leaks water into the cab like a real Landy, but not a drop of oil yet. ( "Touch Wood" ):p

[chezzter]

Two weeks ago I purchased a td5 110 my05 with 64000km on the clock for 30K (they took a TD freelander trade in......for 5k so hip pocket assault was only 25k) Good deals are out there (there are a few dodgy ones out there aswell unfortunately).......you get the feeling that they are not ultra fast movers in the car yard like Tojo's and pootrols so you do have a little bit of bargaining power IMO) You must get it checked out by independant LR specialist. Mine may have an issue with centre diff locking linkages but all up i think its a bargain......with the money saved it wont take long to set it up with TT/Ashcroft DL etc.

If i'd of had the cash for the Puma....... (which i didn't).....it would of been a tough decision......i dont doubt they are more improved but i think you would be better off judging individual cars on their merrit...if that makes sense.

[rar110]

Two weeks ago I purchased a td5 110 my05 with 64000km on the clock for 30K (they took a TD freelander trade in......for 5k so hip pocket assault was only 25k) Good deals are out there (there are a few dodgy ones out there aswell unfortunately).......you get the feeling that they are not ultra fast movers in the car yard like Tojo's and pootrols so you do have a little bit of bargaining power IMO) You must get it checked out by independant LR specialist. Mine may have an issue with centre diff locking linkages but all up i think its a bargain......with the money saved it wont take long to set it up with TT/Ashcroft DL etc.

If i'd of had the cash for the Puma....... (which i didn't).....it would of been a tough decision......i dont doubt they are more improved but i think you would be better off judging individual cars on their merrit...if that makes sense.

Thanks, good advice.

TD5 Defenders with that few kms are pretty rare, so good find.

[newhue]

Pete, if you like, you are welcome to borrow mine for the weekend and give it a run. Take the family camping, run it down the highway for a few hours and get a feel for it.
A Tdci is an expansive bit of kit to be using them for what they were made for. They are too expansive to sit in the driveway and do little. So I'd be very disappointed for you if you went that road and family aren't completely sold.
Mine had it's last service the other day. I believe it's has taken the 3 years to finish it off, but that was my draw on the build I got. I can only hope maintenance is it's only ongoing concern, as we all do on here regardless of model.
I put almost 1000K on it this weekend towing a little boat. Have to say at 90K it's running like the first day, actually better because it didn't leak, has no drive line noise, and all my accessories added.
I'm no expert, but feel I can identify various clunks in a 2.4 drive line for you, and report what has been done to mine to resolve it. For gods sake though, buy a 130.

[mark2]

Well set up for touring, TD5 just listed on ebay in QLD:
Land Rover Defender 110 TD5 4x4 2000 4D Wagon 5 SP Manual 4x4 2 5L in in Buderim, QLD | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Land-Rover-Defender-110-Td5-4x4-2000-4D-Wagon-5-SP-Manual-4x4-2-5L-/261288024838?pt=AU_Cars&hash=item3cd5fadb06)

No connection with this vehicle or seller, but looks like good value at first appearance.

[newhue]

seems a few on here are currently on the market. Nuggets Tdci 110 cab ute, rutmutt is soon to put a Td5 110.