TD5 taking a while to start

[plaven]

So can't say it's been smooth sailing so far... and this is probably the worst question to ask, but.....

The last couple of starts the engine doesn't fire first go, as has been the case once the glow plug light goes out. Instead the engine winds over and over.

That last time at work, I started pumping the accelerator ( not sure this is effective??? )

Since owning this car the head was done, lots of hoses replaced, the starter motor contacts replaced (that was done by me following tutes here and on discovery2.co.uk ( that's going to hurt when that site closes down! )) so I'm hoping someone can give me a few places to look at first before taking it to the mechanic, which given the dire financial position I'm in after the $5k spent last time it was there, I'm reluctant to do just now.

Thankfully I haven't sold my car yet. Guess I can just drive it and leave the Disco in the driveway until I can sell my first born.

[Blknight.aus]

fuel pump
fuel pump relay
fuel pressure regulator
crank angle sensor


they're the common ones

[plaven]

fuel pump
fuel pump relay
fuel pressure regulator
crank angle sensor


they're the common ones


Thanks. Way out of my league...

Guess it's off to the mechanic.

[jed]

How old is your battery. Mine became difficult to start, especially from cold. Engine spun over fine, just wouldn't catch. Something to do with the voltage drop being too much to power the ecu /injectors. Worth a try if you can borrow a good one. Changed mine for a Lucas 664 6 months ago and it's been fine since.

[plaven]

Ok based on the start this morning and that the fuel pump making odd noises I have a start point.

Time to find a tutorial on how to do it.

[bob10]

Thanks. Way out of my league...

Guess it's off to the mechanic.

Mate, buy a RAVE dvd from the MARKET section here, start doing as much of your own maintenance as you can, Get to know your vehicle. You'll save heaps, & as they say, you'll never never know, if you never never try ;) Bob

[plaven]

Mate, buy a RAVE dvd from the MARKET section here, start doing as much of your own maintenance as you can, Get to know your vehicle. You'll save heaps, & as they say, you'll never never know, if you never never try ;) Bob

Thanks Bob. I have a RAVE CD already.

I've found a run down on aulro and now watching a youtube video about how to get to the fuel tank.

I'll have a read through the RAVE CD shortly.

Once done it's time to have a crack... :)

Only the 2nd time with tools in hand doing something I've never done before. Go figure. :)

[Husky]

You don't need to take the fuel tank out to get at the pump.
I have just replaced mine and you can get at it from the top by just removing the trim.
Look in the rave manual there are good step by step instructions there and there are also tutorials if you search for them.

Good luck Mick

[plaven]

You don't need to take the fuel tank out to get at the pump.
I have just replaced mine and you can get at it from the top by just removing the trim.
Look in the rave manual there are good step by step instructions there and there are also tutorials if you search for them.

Good luck Mick

Thanks Mick.

Watched a youtube video: Land Rover Discovery 2 Fuel Pump Install - YouTube (http://youtu.be/qW-wDtmtwok)

Read this post on aulro: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2/64117-changing-d2-fuel-pump-td5.html

And read through the RAVE CD... all I need now is the new pump and the weekend to roll around.

Pete.

[Husky]

I got my pump from the Uk it was $300 or $400 cheaper,
But it takes 5 to 7 days to get here (from my previous experience)

[Blknight.aus]

Thanks Mick.

Watched a youtube video: Land Rover Discovery 2 Fuel Pump Install - YouTube (http://youtu.be/qW-wDtmtwok)

Read this post on aulro: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2/64117-changing-d2-fuel-pump-td5.html

And read through the RAVE CD... all I need now is the new pump and the weekend to roll around.

Pete.

and this is how it all starts

next weekend you'll be changing the DC unis after that you'll do the leaking pinion seal and by christmas you'll be eying of an engine crane in super cheap so you can lift the engine out to change that rear main you're a bit worried about and wheile youve got it out you' just pop the stiffner plate off and tolerance the big ends and mains...

next youve got your youngest or fist born helping fasten the nuts and bolts you cant quite reach both ends of and to help locate the sockets on the bolts you have to torque up hard.

thats how I started....

[Disco_Rock]

If the fuel pump sounds like its gargling its still ok it echoes in the tank a bit and what ever you do DON'T TAKE THE TANK OUT WITH THE PUMP IN I had a mechanic do that on me once (had to take it to him cause I didn't have enough space to do the job myself) and I didn't know what damage was done until my fuel pump fell off in the tank while I was doing 110km/h on the federal highway. When my disco was doing that within a week I had a new battery in it since the duel battery system was put in by Hume Off Road I have had no problems with that part of the car. Good luck!

[plaven]

I got my pump from the Uk it was $300 or $400 cheaper,
But it takes 5 to 7 days to get here (from my previous experience)

I had a look around online ended up calling the local LR spare parts, got a price, get the pump tomorrow.

Also get a chance to talk shop, the guy on the phone was pretty good about what to look for.

Asked about the oil pump bolt and he was quite suprised about it. Said he hadn't heard much about it, I told him it was all over the internet!!!

He also said a couple of guys across from where they are were building their TD5 engines... didn't get any names, but certainly would love to work on something like that with someone else who knows what they are doing.

[plaven]

and this is how it all starts


LOL... well I would really like to actually get the darn thing dirty!!! I haven't taken it off road yet.

I'm hoping the fuel pump is about it now... at least for a few months.



next weekend you'll be changing the DC unis


The what now???



after that you'll do the leaking pinion seal


What's that???

I want to do the oil bolt first, been scared silly with that one!!!



and by christmas you'll be eying of an engine crane in super cheap so you can lift the engine out to change that rear main you're a bit worried about


Well I wasn't until now! :) I guess it's possible to do that, pull the motor into the shed, the truck won't fit, but I could pull it out and drag it into the shed ok... I guess.



and wheile youve got it out you' just pop the stiffner plate off and tolerance the big ends and mains...


Sure, while the engine is out.. why not? :)



next youve got your youngest or fist born helping fasten the nuts and bolts you cant quite reach both ends of and to help locate the sockets on the bolts you have to torque up hard.

thats how I started....

Sadly the first born won't be dragged from his computer, but my daughter would be up for it. :)

Thanks for the chuckle. :)

Or the nightmares... will see how I sleep tonight.

[LandyAndy]

Its the glow plugs.
Mine is the same.
Once fired up all is good,same with yours???
I had the problem previously,wacked 4 non genuine glowplugs in all was good.1 winter and the issue is back:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:.
If you buy new ones pay the extra coin for genuine.
Despite being a 5 cylinder there are only 4 glowplugs.
Andrew

[plaven]

If the fuel pump sounds like its gargling its still ok it echoes in the tank a bit and what ever you do DON'T TAKE THE TANK OUT WITH THE PUMP IN I had a mechanic do that on me once (had to take it to him cause I didn't have enough space to do the job myself) and I didn't know what damage was done until my fuel pump fell off in the tank while I was doing 110km/h on the federal highway. When my disco was doing that within a week I had a new battery in it since the duel battery system was put in by Hume Off Road I have had no problems with that part of the car. Good luck!

The pump doesn't start when the key is turned, it eventually does and makes a high pitched whine, the sound is not consistent, I have to pump the accelerator to get it to start.

I've also noticed a slight miss at idle.

I think it's fair to say the pump isn't so good.

We'll know more by the end of the weekend I guess.

[Designosaur]

Hey Plaven,

The oil pump bolt tales are a cause for fear and trepidation for new td5 owners! I just did mine on my new to me D2. I didn't want to drive the thing without checking it.

The good thing is all the info available on fixing them here and elsewhere.

Good luck with doing the fuel pump

[bob10]

So can't say it's been smooth sailing so far... and this is probably the worst question to ask, but.....

The last couple of starts the engine doesn't fire first go, .
just a thought, does the engine start eventually? if so rule out Fuel pump relay , Main relay, & the crank thingamajig. They are definite non start items when broke. Have you checked the old oil in the harness at the ECU? That can be intermittent. Also, clutching at straws, when I change my fuel filter, the pump makes that whining sound, until the air is purged from the system. Grab a torch, get under & get personal with your fuel system. Good luck, Bob

[PhilipA]

Just a thing from left field.
I have read in pommy sites etc that there is a non return valve on the inlet of the fuel filter that can leak and let the sytem drain back to the tank.
It is relatively cheap and easy to get at.
Maybe try that before doing anything else as from what I read that problem causes slow starting.
Regards Philip A

[Pippin]

At the risk of teaching you to suck eggs, it is best to prime the Fuel Filter before fitting, this avoids the risk of a noisy pump. Also if you fit a new pump prime that as best you can before fitting for the same reason.

Nick:)

[plaven]

At the risk of teaching you to suck eggs, it is best to prime the Fuel Filter before fitting, this avoids the risk of a noisy pump. Also if you fit a new pump prime that as best you can before fitting for the same reason.

Nick:)

Not telling me to suck eggs, I've never done this before.

How do I prime the pump?

[Blknight.aus]

DO NOT prime the fuel filter before fitting.....

you will potentially be putting unfiltered fuel up into the engine.

make sure that before you try the priming sequence after fuel system maintenance that the tank is full. I happen to know a certain appy that made 2 mistakes when doing a tank change on a perentie that now religiously checks, physically, the contents of the tank before trying to bleed a fuel system.

[Pippin]

OK Dave, fair point about priming the filter I'll take that mechanics advice off my list. There seems to be a lot of talk about tank removal on this post I presume no one is going to remove the tank unnecessarily to replace the pump? If you don't have much fuel in the tank when fitting a pump making sure that there is fuel in the chambers of the pump before fitting is worthwhile?

Nick:)

[plaven]

DO NOT prime the fuel filter before fitting.....

you will potentially be putting unfiltered fuel up into the engine.

make sure that before you try the priming sequence after fuel system maintenance that the tank is full. I happen to know a certain appy that made 2 mistakes when doing a tank change on a perentie that now religiously checks, physically, the contents of the tank before trying to bleed a fuel system.

Thanks Dave.

Just reading up on priming sequence of the D2. I've just pulled the carpet up and taken the access cover off.

Came inside to grab the vacuum cleaner and a coffee.

Will sit back and think through the process before going back outside.

I'm amazed I got a response so quickly.

Thank you.. it's awesome.

:)

[plaven]

OK Dave, fair point about priming the filter I'll take that mechanics advice off my list. There seems to be a lot of talk about tank removal on this post I presume no one is going to remove the tank unnecessarily to replace the pump? If you don't have much fuel in the tank when fitting a pump making sure that there is fuel in the chambers of the pump before fitting is worthwhile?

Nick:)


Nope, tank is still on. Biggest effort has been pulling the carpet up.

Clearly this belonged to a fisho, the carpet is a bit wet from the recent rain and OMG the smell of fish is strong!!!

Going to be a nightmare getting some of those screws back in I think.

Pete.

[Blknight.aus]

When someone is turning up here for a fuel system job They are advised to turn up with the tank full.

as soon as I start If im doing something that involves the inside of the tank I drain it into jerries (fuel holding type, not Ze Germens) that i predose with biocide 50 then when the work is done I put it all back.

while you have the pump out, just have a feel around the inside of the tank, bet it feels slimy.

that slime combined with a fuel/water boundry is what starts diesel snot.

diesel snot is bad.

Bad in the kind of way that a toyota driver talks about landrovers, except factually, not just made up drivel.

[plaven]

When someone is turning up here for a fuel system job They are advised to turn up with the tank full.


I have a quarter tank according to the gauge.




while you have the pump out, just have a feel around the inside of the tank, bet it feels slimy.


Too late, pump is in :(

Car started! :)

I had a look at the bottom of the tank using a flashlight from a distance.. didn't actually feel for anything.



that slime combined with a fuel/water boundry is what starts diesel snot.

diesel snot is bad.

Bad in the kind of way that a toyota driver talks about landrovers, except factually, not just made up drivel.

What does one do about this snot?

Is it worth pulling the pump out while everything is up to do anything about it?

Pete

[plaven]

Right, still have a slow to start engine.

New fuel pump is in, fuel delivery seems fine, no miss at idle.

After sitting over night the engine takes ages to start. Once running things appear to be OK. I suspect it's the longer stilling turned off that is the first clue here. Either glow plugs are warning the cylinders or there's an air leak in the fuel line? I really don't know.

Reading back through this thread a few things have been mentioned, however I'm in need of some suggestions for troubleshooting.

Going to take it for a bit of a run to charge the battery up again.. it started to sound close to running out of power after this mornings attempt to start and I have only done short runs to the shops so far.

[Pippin]

Pete don't worry to much yet, it may just be some residual air in the system which is quite common after working on the fuel system.

Nick:)

[LandyAndy]

Right, still have a slow to start engine.

New fuel pump is in, fuel delivery seems fine, no miss at idle.

After sitting over night the engine takes ages to start. Once running things appear to be OK. I suspect it's the longer stilling turned off that is the first clue here. Either glow plugs are warning the cylinders or there's an air leak in the fuel line? I really don't know.

Reading back through this thread a few things have been mentioned, however I'm in need of some suggestions for troubleshooting.

Going to take it for a bit of a run to charge the battery up again.. it started to sound close to running out of power after this mornings attempt to start and I have only done short runs to the shops so far.

EXACTLY the same as mine;);););)
Once its been run its ok for that day and sometimes even the next.
I did once try cleaning the mini filter next to the tank so I may have damaged it allowing fuel to drain back as mentioned.
Last time I fitted new glow plugs,the 3rd set the problem went.Im wondering if like some japper diesels if it drops 1 glowplug the others quickly fail too.Other jappers,like my rodeo work ute happliy fire and run roughly until warm with a couple of glowplugs.
GOODLUCK
Andrew

[plaven]

Pete don't worry to much yet, it may just be some residual air in the system which is quite common after working on the fuel system.

Nick:)

OK, thanks Nick.

That settles it, I'm packing the camera bag, a jacket and going for a longer drive. We'll see how that works out.

Pete.

[plaven]

EXACTLY the same as mine;);););)
Once its been run its ok for that day and sometimes even the next.
I did once try cleaning the mini filter next to the tank so I may have damaged it allowing fuel to drain back as mentioned.
Last time I fitted new glow plugs,the 3rd set the problem went.Im wondering if like some japper diesels if it drops 1 glowplug the others quickly fail too.Other jappers,like my rodeo work ute happliy fire and run roughly until warm with a couple of glowplugs.
GOODLUCK
Andrew

Wow, I really need to read what I type!!!

I'll check out the glow plug situation, cost, installation etc. Although when the head was off for the machining, the mechanic said they were fine.

Hoping a longer run will clear any air or related issues.

[Blknight.aus]

Try this.

turn the ignition to run listen for the pump. when the pump cuts out turn the ignition off then on count out the pump time out and a couple of seconds before it cuts out crank it.

If that starts it reliably then its most likely the fuel pressure regulator not closing off properly and allowing the rail to drain.

[PhilipA]

This post discusses the non return valve ( and injector orings)
TD5 Fuel Pressure problem - Land Rover Zone (http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f50/td5-fuel-pressure-problem-161412.html)
Regards Philip A

[plaven]

Try this.

turn the ignition to run listen for the pump. when the pump cuts out turn the ignition off then on count out the pump time out and a couple of seconds before it cuts out crank it.

If that starts it reliably then its most likely the fuel pressure regulator not closing off properly and allowing the rail to drain.

Thanks Dave, I'll give that a go.

I've taken the truck for a long run this afternoon, over rough roads and bitumen, so any air should have moved surely??? And yes still it won't start first go. Scarily it was happening in places I'm not likely to see much traffic go by. Sigh. It started though.

So, the next question is, should I keep the old fuel pump? I note on the top it says it was manufactured in 2004, so this is a post build replacement. Might give some idea of age too... or not.

Thanks for the tip Dave. It's appreciated.

[d2dave]

(that was done by me following tutes here and on discovery2.co.uk ( that's going to hurt when that site closes down! ))

Sorry if a bit off topic, but is discovery2.co.uk shutting down, and when?

[plaven]

Sorry if a bit off topic, but is discovery2.co.uk shutting down, and when?

Not that I'm aware of Dave... I was just an off hand comment as I was thinking how valuable that site is with all the tutorials and information about D2's.

Sites do close down eventually... hence my comment.

Apologies if it's caused concern when it shouldn't.

[d2dave]

Sites do close down eventually.


This one had better not. If it did I might have to go back to watching TV.

[trog]

I am curious if the starting problem occurs no matter what the fuel tank capacity is or if lets say less than half. At less than half i found the issue was the non return not working.

[Blknight.aus]

Thanks Dave, I'll give that a go.

I've taken the truck for a long run this afternoon, over rough roads and bitumen, so any air should have moved surely??? And yes still it won't start first go. Scarily it was happening in places I'm not likely to see much traffic go by. Sigh. It started though.

So, the next question is, should I keep the old fuel pump? I note on the top it says it was manufactured in 2004, so this is a post build replacement. Might give some idea of age too... or not.

Thanks for the tip Dave. It's appreciated.

not quite....

think of the fuel system as a hose thats attached to a hose at the top of a hill with the hose running down hill. Theres a hand nozzle at the end of the hose

turning on the tap is the same as turning on the fuel pump
the hand nozzle is the pressure regualtor

when you turn the hose on if its full the first thing that comes out when you squeeze the handle is the water so long as the tap is on you get water out.

if you turn the tap off if the nozzle isnt leaking then you keep the hose full but if the nozzle leaks over time the water leaks out of the hose and when you turn the tap on again you have to wait while the hose fills up, pressurises and then wait some more while the airy water spurts and spatters out of the hose.

[plaven]

Try this.

turn the ignition to run listen for the pump. when the pump cuts out turn the ignition off then on count out the pump time out and a couple of seconds before it cuts out crank it.

If that starts it reliably then its most likely the fuel pressure regulator not closing off properly and allowing the rail to drain.

I finally got home early enough to try this out.

So if I did this right, the truck is still slow to start. So it appears it isn't the return valve.

With all the talk of checking the battery, I did. I can see it's a supercharge battery with a 650 CCA. Can't recall the model number. It's not clear how old the battery is, but I can see it has the years 2008, 09, 10 to mark when it was installed ( of course not marked! ).

I had a look as it has screw caps and there's plenty of water in there, but the plates look a like they are curling at the top. The water doesn't look all that clean, but to be honest I don't know the last time I've ever looked into a battery. The one of the car is a sealed unit. :-/

Is there a simple test I can do to check if it's the battery, or at this stage, should I check if Battery world have a testing unit and get them to check it?

[schuy1]

650 cca is at the bottom of proper battery size for a D2 TD5. 750cca min is more to the point and so long as it fits the tray there is no such thing as a too big a battery! :) If it has install markers that only go to 2010 it is already 3yo! A Supercharge is also not a top notch brand, although that is sometimes not the case. Battery world will have a load tester, as should any reputable place that sell/stocks car batteries.
But I think you may have found at least part of your problem.
Cheers Scott

[PhilipA]

With all the talk of checking the battery, I did. I can see it's a
supercharge battery with a 650 CCA. Can't recall the model number. It's not
clear how old the battery is, but I can see it has the years 2008, 09, 10 to
mark when it was installed ( of course not marked!

So how fast does the starter turn? zing zing zing or IthinkIcan, IthinkIcan.

If the battery is falling below the 11.4 or whatever cutoff of the ECU, AFAIK the dash will light up like it's Christmas.
BUT all things being equal it appears the battery is quite old and probably doesn't hold a charge. Take the resting volts after a couple of hours stopped , then check it the next morning. It shouldn't be more than a couple of tenths of a volt lower. Ie say 12.7 down to 12.5.
I must say that mine still started first cylinder with a very old battery before I got new u beaut ones.

Regards Philip A

[d2dave]

If your battery is in good nick it should be 12.7 volts a couple of hours after turn off, and still be 12.7 in the morning. If it is 12.5 volts it has lost around 15% of its charge.

http://www.mmbalmainauto.com.au/PDF/State_of_charge_12_volt_batteries.pdf

[plaven]

650 cca is at the bottom of proper battery size for a D2 TD5. 750cca min is more to the point and so long as it fits the tray there is no such thing as a too big a battery! :) If it has install markers that only go to 2010 it is already 3yo! A Supercharge is also not a top notch brand, although that is sometimes not the case. Battery world will have a load tester, as should any reputable place that sell/stocks car batteries.
But I think you may have found at least part of your problem.
Cheers Scott

Hope so Scott.

I'll take it to supercheap auto then, see what their testing unit says.. I'll make sure I get a suitable CCA battery too.

[plaven]

So how fast does the starter turn? zing zing zing or IthinkIcan, IthinkIcan.

If the battery is falling below the 11.4 or whatever cutoff of the ECU, AFAIK the dash will light up like it's Christmas.
BUT all things being equal it appears the battery is quite old and probably doesn't hold a charge. Take the resting volts after a couple of hours stopped , then check it the next morning. It shouldn't be more than a couple of tenths of a volt lower. Ie say 12.7 down to 12.5.
I must say that mine still started first cylinder with a very old battery before I got new u beaut ones.

Regards Philip A

Hi Philip,

It actually turns over quiet well. I have a multimeter, but for the life of me, can't find the darn thing.

I'll take it to a shop and get the battery tested. I'm really hoping now this turns out to be the issue.

[plaven]

A quick update.

New battery in and starts fine. :-)

[plaven]

This slow starting has been going on a while I see.

OK, to recap, head was taken off and machined, injector harness replaced at the same time (along with an awful lot of other items). I have since replaced fuel pump and battery. Found the battery negative lead wasn't properly grounded, fixed that.

While poking about to work out what could be wrong, found oil at the red ECU plug, have cleaned that now twice.

Now after each time one of these things was done, starting improved. However it's continued to get worse, to the point that it's a long draining start, lots of foot pumping and when it finally starts lots of exhaust, clearly too much fuel.

So I finally moved the D2 from the front yard back to in front the shed. I took it for a bit of a run to make sure some charge goes back to the battery. When I got back home, I turned off the engine. Gave it a few seconds and then tried stating it again. NOTHING. So no residual pressure and a warm engine.

Looking through all the slow starting posts, I seem to be down to the following things:

Air bleed valve,
non return valve
Fuel pressure regulator,
injector seals and washers.

I'm thinking from a cost/complexity point of view - and a lack of a clue to diagnose the issue, I should go with replacing the parts in said order?

For some reason the thought of pulling the rocker cover off freaks me out a bit. Put it down to a lack of confidence having never done it before.

[d2dave]

For some reason the thought of pulling the rocker cover off freaks me out a bit. Put it down to a lack of confidence having never done it before.

Nothing hard or complicated doing this.

[Tank]

This slow starting has been going on a while I see.

OK, to recap, head was taken off and machined, injector harness replaced at the same time (along with an awful lot of other items). I have since replaced fuel pump and battery. Found the battery negative lead wasn't properly grounded, fixed that.

While poking about to work out what could be wrong, found oil at the red ECU plug, have cleaned that now twice.

Now after each time one of these things was done, starting improved. However it's continued to get worse, to the point that it's a long draining start, lots of foot pumping and when it finally starts lots of exhaust, clearly too much fuel.

So I finally moved the D2 from the front yard back to in front the shed. I took it for a bit of a run to make sure some charge goes back to the battery. When I got back home, I turned off the engine. Gave it a few seconds and then tried stating it again. NOTHING. So no residual pressure and a warm engine.

Looking through all the slow starting posts, I seem to be down to the following things:

Air bleed valve,
non return valve
Fuel pressure regulator,
injector seals and washers.

I'm thinking from a cost/complexity point of view - and a lack of a clue to diagnose the issue, I should go with replacing the parts in said order?

For some reason the thought of pulling the rocker cover off freaks me out a bit. Put it down to a lack of confidence having never done it before.
Injector seals and washers. Why do you pump the accelerator, it doesn't have a carby or accel. pump, or are you trying to purge the fuel system, same problem on a friends TD5, replaced seals and washers problem fixed, not a hard job just follow instructions and don't mix up positions of injectors, Regards Frank.

[plaven]

Injector seals and washers. Why do you pump the accelerator, it doesn't have a carby or accel. pump, or are you trying to purge the fuel system, same problem on a friends TD5, replaced seals and washers problem fixed, not a hard job just follow instructions and don't mix up positions of injectors, Regards Frank.

Ok. I know what I'm doing this weekend then.

No idea why I'm pumping. Seems to be a response thing to the engine not firing. I do hold the accelerator down though and the engine struggles into starting then really fires and spins up.

[plaven]

Turns out injectors orings and washers were done.

Booked to go back to the mechanic.

[Tank]

How long ago and did the mechanic know that the injectors have to go back in their respective holes as the computer knows which hole each injector (numbered) goes, Regards Frank.

[plaven]

How long ago and did the mechanic know that the injectors have to go back in their respective holes as the computer knows which hole each injector (numbered) goes, Regards Frank.

About 3000kms ago.

I expect they would. One of Canberra's Land Rover specialists.

[plaven]

Quick update.

I got the d2 to the mechanic, spoke to him later in the afternoon. He was amazed I even got it started to get to his shop. He ended up pushing it into the workshop.

After hooking it up to the diagnostic equipment he found the injector pulse was weak. He put a spare 2nd hand ECU in and said it started first go and was fine all afternoon.

Then on the way over to pick it up I got a call saying it wasn't starting as easily again.

So it's still at the workshop for further diagnosis on Monday. :-(

[plaven]

I picked up the D2 this morning from the Mechanics.

The new ECU seems to have made gear changes much smoother than before, but I can really feel the difference in the performance of the engine compared to the old ECU. I still have it and plan to pull it apart to see if there's any oil in there that may have been causing any problems.

I also tried the cruise control on the way home, and it wouldn't 'set'. I CC switch was on. So I'm going to google ECU's now to see if there's a difference between them.

The interesting thing now is, that after a couple of days with the mechanic and him starting it over the course of the time he had it, I drove it home, stopped at the shops and when I went to start it, it was again slow to fire. Once it started this time, both the M and S lights started to flash. :(

I figured since the car would move and it wasn't far from home, I'd head off. I stopped at the servo to fill up and on getting in to drive home, starting was at its worst again. It simply wouldn't start.

Eventually it fired and I was able to drive home.

The M and S lights weren't showing though this time.

This is proving to a be a very expensive issue. Given all the diagnostics available at the workshop, does anyone have any theories on what could be causing the problem?

[mattadelaide1975]

Just a thought, with the M&S lights flashing, and im assuming the XYZ switch, and the other "obvious" causes of the M&S lights flashing has been ruled out, get your mechanic to check the harness between the XYZ switch and the Auto Trans ECU. Mine was rubbed through at one point and when going over a bump would short out onto metal, and cause the M&S lights to come on and my 02 D2 TD5 to go into limp mode.

May not be your issue, but worth a look.

Cheers

Matt

[schuy1]

To me it still seems like a voltage issue? M&S lights, sluggish starting , weak injector pulse. What do the others following this think? If there is earthing issues or faulty connection to the ECU it will have a bearing on it and those types of things are not easy to find :o
Cheers Scott

[plaven]

To me it still seems like a voltage issue? M&S lights, sluggish starting , weak injector pulse. What do the others following this think? If there is earthing issues or faulty connection to the ECU it will have a bearing on it and those types of things are not easy to find :o
Cheers Scott

Thanks Scott.

The problem with these hard to find problems is the bill gets very expensive. :(

The battery is new and I checked, 12.55volts. I think that's high enough.

The negative wire off the battery wasn't grounded to the chasis, I suspect this was my fault when I changed the battery. I have fixed this now.. just trying to work out what the continuity switch is on the multimeter to check it out.

I'll crawl under the car and see what I can see with the xyz switch and wiring.

I guess the thing is it does seem like it could pinned on something like a bare wire somewhere as he swore that the car started fine each and every time he had it (apart from late friday afternoon when he was going to move it out of the shop which is why it stayed the weekend), so it could be that with my driving it home today the wire may have moved and is now shorting out.

I'm really not sure how you test this though.. I barely know how to work a multimeter! :)

[plaven]

OK, continuity to the chasis is fine. Got to love youtube to teach you thinks.

So, I'm just back from a quick drive down the road. With testing the continuity, I think figured with my new found knowledge to test the battery while cranking the engine. I was in and out of the car to do this, so turning the key I can hear the fuel pump running fine, the volt reading is fine too, while checking the multimeter I can hear fuel 'squirting' through the fuel cooler (just checked it out on google and I'm sure that's it).

With the fuel primed I turned the key and the engine fired first go.

Good signs. It's stopped raining so maybe something was wet.

I turned off the engine, did it again and again it starts fine. Again I hear this sort of 'squirting' sound at the fuel cooler.

Is this sound normal?

Anyway, I drive down to bunnings (need a security bit set to get the old ECU open). The test would be starting again after a drive.

Once again the engine won't start. I gave it time to prime with the fuel pump, but it won't start first crank, and takes quite a while to start again and it does with a 'slow buildup' like it's not getting enough fuel.

Finally started and I get home, pull up and then just to see how it goes, I turn off the engine, wait 30 seconds and then turn it over again. The engine kicks in to life and then runs rough and then stalls like it isn't getting any fuel.

I'm thinking it might not be electrical... but then I have no idea really. I'm just guessing.

Anyone in Canberra who's a TD5 wizz? :)

[ScotsD2]

I think your getting there think there is a few problems.

None return valve on fuel filter head cheap to check and replace
Sounds like its that.

Does it take longer to start if its been sitting for a while fuel could be draining back

Pete

[d2dave]

It certainly sounds like a fuel problem to me.

[ScotsD2]

A good diagram and pictures are on this link

TD5 Fuel Pressure problem - Land Rover Zone (http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f50/td5-fuel-pressure-problem-161412.html)

Best photos and explanation I can find sorry it's not on AULRO

Pete

[plaven]

Thanks...

So it seems like we're back full circle. One of these threads it was suggested to check the fuel filter.

I did the 'simple' test as explained but it didn't really prove the fuel filter issue.

At this stage apart from finding rubbed wires in a loom some place, it's about the only thing that hasn't been done yet.

It's going back to the mechanic when I can get it back to him. He's going to work on it on his own time now, so that's a relief (financially).

Peter.

[ScotsD2]

Hi just trying to help sometimes diagnosing you will have to swap over known good parts if I can do a cheap part swap I will try to see if it will work sometimes it will cure the issue it's striking a balance against labour charges and how good your mechanic knows the car.

I bought a D1 that I was told needed an injector pump I had a rotten D1 for spares so had a pump.

Previous owner had car at specialist to find fault new lift pump, filter head heater plugs heater relay and 10hrs labour still got a wrong diagnosis.
All it needed was a new fuel line.

Pete

[bob10]

Can't help feeling it sounds like injector seals & washers. Did the mechanic have his apprentice do the job, or did he do it himself? Bob

[plaven]

Can't help feeling it sounds like injector seals & washers. Did the mechanic have his apprentice do the job, or did he do it himself? Bob

I can't say for sure but it's likely to be one of the other mechanics as he said that they forgot to add an item to the invoice when I picked it up.

I guess now it's a case of getting it back there to find out what the problem is. Like I said thankfully not at my expense for the labour.

[bob10]

I think you would get some value out of the tutorial from www.discovery2.co.uk (http://www.discovery2.co.uk) go to workshop, then injector seals& washers. A little bit of knowledge here might help, ;) Bob[ Discreetly ask how they removed the injectors, with the special tool, or some home made device. the possibility of damaging the seating surface if removed incorrectly is on the cards]edit

[bob10]

Found this under 'files ', at the top of the page, Bob,[ interesting.]
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/11/506.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/local_links.php?catid=7&sort=N&pp=10&page=3#) https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/11/507.jpg LR BULLETIN - D2 TD5 Hot/Cold Start Issues (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=7&id=94) https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/11/508.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=7&id=94)

[justinc]

Found this under 'files ', at the top of the page, Bob,[ interesting.]
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/11/506.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/local_links.php?catid=7&sort=N&pp=10&page=3#) https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/11/507.jpg LR BULLETIN - D2 TD5 Hot/Cold Start Issues (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=7&id=94) https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/11/508.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=7&id=94)

hi bob, this equates only to the l322 range rover with the bmw 6 cyl diesel,

jc

[Pedro_The_Swift]

A good diagram and pictures are on this link

TD5 Fuel Pressure problem - Land Rover Zone (http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f50/td5-fuel-pressure-problem-161412.html)

Best photos and explanation I can find sorry it's not on AULRO

Pete

This thread AND that pic now are;)

[plaven]

A quick update.

I've left the D2 with the mechanic and he's working on it in his own time.

He's said that when all the diagnosis equipment is hooked up, it starts fine, never fails. The latest included fuel pressure sensor stuff (I have to admit I'm only paraphrasing here) and each time the D2 was started, it was fine.

Remove all the analysis equipment and it starts failing with starting.

He's going to try the fuel pressure regulator next.

The simplistic (sarcastic) comments from work mates is maybe I just need to leave the diagnostic equipment hooked up so I can get it back.

It's going to be interesting to see come of this.

[plaven]

I spoke to the mechanic about progress on the D2, and he's admitted that this problem has driven him and his guys mad trying to track down the issue.

So here's what I recall of the conversation.

The fuel system itself was inspected and it turned out fine (good thing since I did the fuel pump myself and it had been a lingering concern I did something wrong there).

The problem was that the engine just wasn't consistent with the slow starting. It wasn't showing the general issues with injector washers and seals (keeping in mind they were changed during the head reconditioning only 3000km's ago).

In the end Ray said he built himself a test harness that allowed him to test the injectors as though they are in the cylinder, it allowed him to turn the engine and see what was going on.

It turns out that the injector on cylinder 4 would leak every now and then. Apparently engines will tend to stop turning when you switch them off generally in the same spot, and it turns out that often this engine will stop with the cylinder valve just open and the injector would leak, but since the value was open there was enough chance for the diesel to be expelled to prevent hydro-locking (is that the right term?) but with that it would cause problems with the engine actually firing ( a blocked fuel line valve was at this point contributing to the problem, however as I was told, often you can go years without a problem it's only an issue when you need to bleed the fuel line of air, which at this point the system needed to do).

So when the engine would stop with a different rotation in the engine, the problem wouldn't present and it allowed the engine to fire up pretty much first go as expected.

To test this out, a new injector has been put in from one of his spare engines. It's the newer one than was put in the 2001 model TD5 engine, it was programmed into the ECU and the engine now starts fine after a large number of test starts.

I'm still to get it back, hopefully on Monday and hopefully without a second mortgage.. :)

I have to wonder though about the mixing of the injectors. Should I think about having it replaced with the same as the others, or will it not be an issue?

Peter.

[d2dave]

I have to wonder though about the mixing of the injectors. Should I think about having it replaced with the same as the others, or will it not be an issue?

Peter.

I would your mechanic this question. Myself, if it started and ran fine I would be quite happy to leave it.

[plaven]

I would your mechanic this question. Myself, if it started and ran fine I would be quite happy to leave it.

Yeah, I've already asked, and he said that LR don't recommend it, but he can't see a reason not to.

I guess the main thing is to make sure the ECU's are programmed correctly for the injectors.

Hmmm.. does a diagnostic tool know what injectors are in which location?

I have a spare ECU and he will program it to match the new injector set up.

[bob10]

Yeah, I've already asked, and he said that LR don't recommend it, but he can't see a reason not to.

I guess the main thing is to make sure the ECU's are programmed correctly for the injectors.

Hmmm.. does a diagnostic tool know what injectors are in which location?

I have a spare ECU and he will program it to match the new injector set up.


From this site
www.discovery2.co.uk (http://www.discovery2.co.uk/) the 15P prefix engines injectors have a green top, earlier injectors a black top and they are not interchangeable. Perhaps you should get a second opinion. Bob