A costly mistake, please help!

[waccampbell]

Hi all,

So I didn't think much as I was pouring hot water over the negative battery terminal to remove the corrosion around it. I cleaned it up nice and then went back to work, typing work method statements (kill me).

I come back an hour later to start the car and a couple of fault lights come up and a message on the screen.

HDC FAULT and the low range light is flashing along with the a solid ETC light I believe. After the HDC FAULT message then it said SPECIAL PROGRAMS NOT AVAILABLE.

After first thinking what the ***( have I done, I search the internet and read a couple of forum posts. Mainly about brake switch, brake lights and then something about the transfer case module, which is behind the battery.

We removed the battery and cleaned the plug below it (the one with that grey pull out bit). No joy at all.

So I think to myself, well I have to get it home, does it even drive? I start it up, no problems. Whack her in drive and move forward and then there is another message! SUSPENSION LOWERING along with lots of noise, a solid brake light and a solid suspension light. I keep driving forward and notice that its stuck in LOW RANGE. I look down and Low and High lights near the selector are both flashing.

As soon as I would stop and place in Park, the Electric Park Brake would automatically turn on, when I would turn it off, it would beep at me constantly.

I ended up risking it and driving home, in low range, slowly.

So on top of all that, here lies one of my problems. I'm currently in Karratha. There are no dealerships, no diagnostic machines that I know of in town (most Auto Electricians have something called a G Scan).

I'm pretty sure I've stuff my transfer case module. I'm going to inspect further on the weekend, but if I have. How much am I looking at for a new one and as they have to be programmed after putting in, is this something that they can do with out the car at the dealership and send it up pre-programmed?

If they can't do that, should I be looking at maybe buying a Faultmate MVS-2 and just program it myself (I understand that this is possible?)

So what do you all think? Am I buggered? Will it just have to get whacked on a truck and get taken down to Perth?

Sorry all for the long post, got a little carried away! Thanks for listening.

[101RRS]

I hosed mine behind the battery a while back and got your faults - over the next week faults came and went as the module dried out then all was OK. The low range only fault is a bummer but a couple of restarts cleared it.

Good luck - it might come good by itself.

Garry

[Geedublya]

I would remove the battery and access the transfer case ECU behind it. Check the transfer case ECU connectors for water and corrosion. Soak the connectors (plugs and sockets) with methylated spirits and then carefully blow dry them or leave them sitting for a few hours. The alcohol will absorb any moisture.

You can carefully clean any corroded pins with a cotton bud and some CRC or some other product.

Hopefully with it all dried out the can bus will be able to communicate again.

[Graeme]

You could pull the park brake emergency release cable to stop it engaging then don't use it until all sorted. However because the cable re-connects the next time the switch is used, the misbehaviour may cause the switch to effectively be used thereby reconnecting the cables.

If you can get the suspension up to normal height you could then remove the main suspension system fuse (20A) from the engine bay fuse box. The passenger compartment suspension system fuse (5A) can be moved to stop the incessant suspension warning message.

If you can get the transfer case into high range, you could try removing the transfer case ecu. However the gearbox may then go into limp mode with only have limited gears available.

[Dougal]

Once you've got that sorted, why do you have corrosion on your battery terminals?
This only happens when your battery is leaking acid fumes around the post. I'd replace it as soon as practical.

[waccampbell]

I have disconnected the transfer case wiring and given it a good spray with contact cleaner and then dried with the air compressor gun but to no avail, the old man said give them a little spray with wd/crc afterwards.

There was some signs of corrosion on the pins but not a lot. Over the weekend I'll soak them in meth and give that a go! Might take the case module out as well and open it up to see if there is any damage inside.

The puddle of the corrosion and water is on the ground at work and it looks like it'll eat through the concrete, I wonder if it's still anywhere else in the car, surely it wouldn't be good for it.

If I have stuffed the transfer case module, how much are they to replace? Can they be pre programmed?

[Dougal]

Can you clear the error codes by any means?

[Geedublya]

If you can open up the ECU. Soak it with metho as well and have a good look at it for burnt or corroded components. It may come good after you dry it out.

Check any other connectors nearby to make sure they didn't get wet as well.

I have had wet PCBs come good after the metho and drying treatment and I have had others that continued to give faults. One backplane PCB that only had connectors on it never came good even after I baked it in the oven at a low temp for a while.

[wrinklearthur]

The later high specification Land Rover models are very demanding on their battery, I would adopt a policy of a new battery every twelve months and put the older battery into another car where it would probably go on for years.

Fit a new battery before any other complications show up.
.

[waccampbell]

I will soak the pcb over the weekend, are you talking like drowning it and then hanging it up to dry? or just a spray here and there? I have heaps of meth at work, might have to borrow some.

So when a battery is showing signs of corrosion does this mean there is something wrong with it? I always just thought thats what they do after a while. It was weird because the positive terminal is like brand new but the negative terminal looks pretty bad, well did look bad.

If its doing something like this would it be worth replacing the battery as well?

[Geedublya]

Have a good look at it first, if you see damaged components don't bother just replace it.
If all looks OK and you can see no other connectors that could have been wet flush it with metho and dry it out. Hopefully the alcohol will absorb the moisture.

You want the metho that absorbs the H2O to be flushed away so that when it dries it is only metho drying off and the moisture is gone.

Good luck.

[TerryO]

The later high specification Land Rover models are very demanding on their battery, I would adopt a policy of a new battery every twelve months and put the older battery into another car where it would probably go on for years.

Fit a new battery before any other complications show up.
.


This is good advice, change the battery for a new good quality one and see how that goes. Its possible that you may find most of your problems go away with a new battery.

Then go buy a diagnostic tool like a Hawkeye etc so you have a tool that you yourself can read and clear faults with when required. Not that I have often used it but I never go anywhere without mine.

[waccampbell]

I must say thanks for your help so far guys.

It was pretty quiet at work today so I nipped off early and took the battery out and had a look at the module.

http://imageshack.us/a/img18/1885/h72a.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img51/7530/ddzq.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img407/6774/qu3a.jpg

Didn't look bad at all, although there was evidence of the water on the bottom of the casing around the PCB. I didn't end up flushing it with meth, but might go back out tomorrow and give it one more chance. Although I reckon if I open those clips again they will snap off!

I might have to get a diagnostic tool. I'm taking it into somewhere next week but I highly doubt they will be able to do anything but I still think I should just purchase a faultmate, just have to convince the missus as we just bought our first house haha

DAMN CARS!

oh and I tested the battery with a multimeter and it was running at 12.6v.

[Yorkie]

Can of contact cleaner is cheap and a good start for those left side connectors. :)

[waccampbell]

Can of contact cleaner is cheap and a good start for those left side connectors. :)

nothings cheap in Karratha! 30 bucks for a can!

I'll give it another go tomorrow. I should just buy a diagnostic machine and see what the bloody problem is!

[101RRS]

Clean it up and ensure all is dry - do a hard reset of the computer system and there is an excellant chance that all will be well.

Garry

[djam1]

Nothing is cheap in Karratha I agree but I buy it for $9 a tin you just need to know where to shop!


nothings cheap in Karratha! 30 bucks for a can!

I'll give it another go tomorrow. I should just buy a diagnostic machine and see what the bloody problem is!

[waccampbell]

Nothing is cheap in Karratha I agree but I buy it for $9 a tin you just need to know where to shop!

Might have to get it on the work account with my CC at Atoms.

I'll try again tomorrow like I said. Fingers crossed.

[Geedublya]

I reckon there is a good chance the corroded pins are your problem. Contact cleaner, a pair of tweezers and some brillo pad will probably fix your problem.

You will need to clean the plug as well though and I'm not sure what you can use to get in to it.

I have used deoxit (http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.188/.f) before. Though I doubt it is readily available in Karratha. You may have to order it in.

[Graeme]

I reckon there is a good chance the corroded pins are your problem. Contact cleaner, a pair of tweezers and some brillo pad will probably fix your problem.

You will need to clean the plug as well though and I'm not sure what you can use to get in to it.
X2!

[Learner]

This is good advice, change the battery for a new good quality one
SNIP
I agree that changing the battery is appropriate here, but to recommend chaging every 12 months is nonsense.

My first battery lasted 7 years (and 4 years is common).

[Dougal]

So when a battery is showing signs of corrosion does this mean there is something wrong with it? I always just thought thats what they do after a while. It was weird because the positive terminal is like brand new but the negative terminal looks pretty bad, well did look bad.

If its doing something like this would it be worth replacing the battery as well?

Corrosion means the seal around the post has broken. It's not a problem for the battery supplying the required power, but it's a huge problem for eating terminals, rusting out metal below the battery etc. The corrosion can cause a huge amount of damage to other stuff.

If a battery did that to me inside warranty I'd be wanting it replaced free. If it's outside warranty but still in use I'd be replacing it myself and possibly never using that brand again.

Here in NZ Exide are chronic for it, I refuse to buy them. My 10 year old century (long past retired from vehicle duties but does workshop 12v supply duties) just started doing it. My 5 and 6 year old supercharge batteries haven't done it yet and the 4 year old bosch hasn't done it either.
My 1 year old Century-Yuasa battery is identical to the supercharge.

[wrinklearthur]

I agree that changing the battery is appropriate here, but to recommend chaging every 12 months is nonsense.

My first battery lasted 7 years (and 4 years is common).

I have had a similar run out of batteries, and yes, I got over ten years out of a N50Z Exide battery in my HJ Holden ute fitted with a standard 35 amp alternator.
But some times it is prudent to "wear braces as well as a belt" and by changing a battery in a vehicle that has a high reliance on electronics, before there is trouble is really cheap insurance.

As in this case were there has been corrosion from a battery that is starting to 'gas' and it has then gone on to causing other problems.
Treat the corrosion as the first warning signs of the battery starting to loose the edge from it's capacity to charge up to it's full voltage.
.

[101RRS]

The battery in my RRS is still the original and now over 6 years old and still working OK - despite freezing Canberra winters where the car is usually parked outside overnight.

So I don't think there is a need to change the battery every 12 months.

Garry

[mikeford]

my boss had a leaking battery on his D3, not noticed for a while. The acid destroyed the ECU that was below it. Hope yours is ok. Best of luck it is only dampness. I hate batteries, I used to work in a telephone exchange with heaps of them, I replace batteries the first time they misbehave.

[waccampbell]

Cleaned up all the connectors and the PCB and put back in. Still no go!

I went and bought a new battery as well, but it seems that the guy gave me the wrong one, its only 730cca. It's a Bosch 58014. I think I was meant to get a 60038 in the Bosch models. I'll have to sort that out tomorrow/Monday.

Whilst I was buying the battery he did say they had a different diag tool than the GScan that didn't work the other day.

So I have 2 more chances up here I believe before I buy myself a diag tool, I've been looking at the Faultmate. Any recommendations?

http://imageshack.us/a/img443/8779/fzzw.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img200/4673/buz5.jpg

[Graeme]

What are the symptoms now?

[waccampbell]

Still the same, just turning the key and not starting the motor there is a brake fault, dsc fault and flashing low range on the dash.

When you start the car and put it into drive then a suspension fault comes up and handbrake beeps to say please apply. Along with the suspension lowering and being stuck in Low Range!

It's been the same all along, hasn't changed one bit since the problem showed up.

[33chinacars]

Have a look at the IIDTool from GAP Diagnostic

Home - GAP Diagnostic (http://www.gap-diagnostic.com/home.html)

I have one for my L322 TD6 . Highly recommend. Excellent back up service.

Hope all works out

Gary

[Graeme]

The suspension fault and subsequent lowering is likely to be the result of the hand-brake message/fault because that is what the suspension system does for any brake system generated fault.

What year model D3 is it? On early vehicles the TC module connected to the high speed canbus but on later vehicles the high speed canbus was input to then output from the TC ecu which would mean that a dead TC module would cause a lot of other ecus including the park brake ecu to be unable to communicate.

Did you manage to clean-up the sockets in the connectors?

Are there any other connectors nearby that could be corroded by the battery acid? To change ranges the TC module has to know that the gbox is in neutral so bad connections at the gbox connector could be a cause.

[waccampbell]

The suspension fault and subsequent lowering is likely to be the result of the hand-brake message/fault because that is what the suspension system does for any brake system generated fault.

What year model D3 is it? On early vehicles the TC module connected to the high speed canbus but on later vehicles the high speed canbus was input to then output from the TC ecu which would mean that a dead TC module would cause a lot of other ecus including the park brake ecu to be unable to communicate.

Did you manage to clean-up the sockets in the connectors?

Are there any other connectors nearby that could be corroded by the battery acid? To change ranges the TC module has to know that the gbox is in neutral so bad connections at the gbox connector could be a cause.

Its a 2006 HSE. There is a plug directly under the battery that looked like it got something when this problem first occurred but when disconnecting the terminals are very clean.

The handbrake doesn't beep until after I have put the gbox into P, but what you are saying about the Low Range makes sense as well.

Does anybody know what the plug is that sits under the battery and just in front of the transfer case module? It has one of those grey bits that you have to pull out to disconnect and push in to connect.

I have heard that there is a transmission module, where is that one?

[Graeme]

Is this battery on the RHS in front of the brake m/c? The TC module on the D4 is there as well as the connector for the gbox harness but I don't know the D3. The transmisison module is inside the gbox.

[waccampbell]

Is this battery on the RHS in front of the brake m/c? The TC module on the D4 is there as well as the connector for the gbox harness but I don't know the D3. The transmisison module is inside the gbox.

This is the cranking battery on the LHS of the vehicle, perhaps the harness thats under the battery is the gearbox one on the D3 as well, that would probably explain a lot! Can anybody confirm?

[Graeme]

Could water have gotten into any other connector and it still be wet?

[Geedublya]

Could water have gotten into any other connector and it still be wet?

x 2

[Graeme]

If there are 2 canbus wire pairs for the TC module then the handbrake ecu and the suspension ecu will be cut-off from the rest of the network if the TC module is dead, according to the high speed canbus network diagram. Canbus wires are quite thin and each pair has a slow twist. Removing the TC module if there are 2 canbus pairs should not alter the existing faults if the TC module has failed.

I have conflicting information for the 2007 model, with the wiring diagram for the TC module showing only 1 canbus yet the comms network diagram showing 2. I suspect the change was made for the 2007 MY with some documentation not updated but perhaps the change was made earlier.

[CaverD3]

MY07 changed the way modules 'talked' to each other. Stopped cascade faults which caused the D3 to lower to bump stops an chuck it's toys out of the pram.

[Graeme]

I was aware of the e-diff ecu canbus connection change but hadn't even looked into the TC's connection to the rest.

Whilst the vehicle is a 2006 model, is it a 2006-built MY07?

[wrinklearthur]

Is there anything to be gained by testing the crook / suspect module in another ( same MY ) car?

Or is there a risk of creating problems in the good car, that stay after it's original module is reinstated?
.

[waccampbell]

I was aware of the e-diff ecu canbus connection change but hadn't even looked into the TC's connection to the rest.

Whilst the vehicle is a 2006 model, is it a 2006-built MY07?

I am unsure what MYyear it is at the moment, next time I'm out having a look at it I'll have a look. How do I find what MY year it is??

[sheerluck]

If the 10th digit of your VIN number is 7, then it's a MY07.

See Vehicle Identification Number - DISCO3.CO.UK Knowledge Base (http://www.disco3.co.uk/wiki/VIN_Details)

[waccampbell]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/09/492.jpg

So I took it into Barth Brothers today and they plugged in there diagnostic machine. We found a fault code saying something like invalid message from transfer case (I can't remember exactly what it was). Now I must admit, no matter how embarrassing is I can't remember if I was trying to put it in High Range properly (by putting into N first).

I'm saying this because I'm not sure if the guy cleared the fault and then it started working or if he just put it in Low Range the correct way, because I only remember trying in P and not thinking too much of it because I was getting no error message to say you're doing it the wrong way!

The guy also said that you have to clear the faults before they will go away, is this true?

So don't I look stupid! Either way its working though. Very happy! Especially when I didn't seem to stuff the module after taking it apart many times over the passed couple of days, hopefully the duck tape works although I'm not sure how it will fare with the heat coming from the motor.

Cheers everybody for helping! It was much appreciated!

[Graeme]

Good news that its all working properly again. I suspect you already know that the duct tape will turn to sticky goo when it gets hot. Replace it with some race tape.

[waccampbell]

Good news that its all working properly again. I suspect you already know that the duct tape will turn to sticky goo when it gets hot. Replace it with some race tape.

What is this race tape you talk of? Never heard of it before!

[Graeme]

AFAIK this type of tape got its name from being used to hold broken panels together on race cars. It has a fibrous backing that is strong along its length but tears across easily, not needing to be cut. The adhesive probably still doesn't like heat much so maybe not much better than what you've used.

[Dougal]

AFAIK this type of tape got its name from being used to hold broken panels together on race cars. It has a fibrous backing that is strong along its length but tears across easily, not needing to be cut. The adhesive probably still doesn't like heat much so maybe not much better than what you've used.

You've just described duck tape. But that still turns gooey at high temps.

[discotwinturbo]

You've just described duck tape. But that still turns gooey at high temps.

I call Graeme's description 100 mile an hour tape, race tape, gaffer tape or cloth tape.

Duct Tape is stretchy.....well I have a role in the shed still in its package and has Duct Tape written on it and has no ribbing in it.

Pic attached of Duct Tape.

Brett.....

[TerryO]

Cloth/ 100mph tape eventually turns sticky and crumples up then peels off in a heated environment as well. But it lasts fifty times longer than duct tape.

[Dougal]

I call Graeme's description 100 mile an hour tape, race tape, gaffer tape or cloth tape.

Duct Tape is stretchy.....well I have a role in the shed still in its package and has Duct Tape written on it and has no ribbing in it.

Pic attached of Duct Tape.

Brett.....

You can see reinforcement in that picture of tape you've just posted.

Duck is a brand of the cloth reinforced tape, gaffa, 100 mph, etc etc are generic terms for the same thing. Duct tape is used as a generic term by a lot of people to describe the same stuff. But it sounds like the "duct" tape you are thinking of is simply PVC tape, like electrical tape but wider.

But regardless, the tape with cloth in it (no matter what you want to call it) still doesn't handle high temps.
There are metal foil tapes that do.

[discotwinturbo]

You can see reinforcement in that picture of tape you've just posted.
But it sounds like the "duct" tape you are thinking of is simply PVC tape, like electrical tape but wider.

Must have posted the wrong pic (one I found on the net), as no reinforcing in duct tape.

PVC tape....Yep that's the one....it's just plastic tape. I picked up the duct tape in error when I was actually after the gaffer/cloth tape.
I saw a pic of a Pajero with gaffer/cloth tape once, trying to protect his car from scratches....it would have done more damage than good I would expect. It does tend to leave a mess after time.

Brett.....

[wrinklearthur]

I reckon there would be a heat shrink package that would do the job.

[superquag]

Heat shrink sounds a bit extreme, if you mean encasing the entire ECU / plug in a huge tube of it... Not to mention expensive.

If you must, then use 'Self-amalgamating tape' around the plug/socket/harness. - name says it all, it bonds and fuses into a single mass when applied under tension... Again, not overly inexpensive...

Easier way is to keep water OFF the ECU and the plug. Fabricate a 'roof' or umbrella or whatever, so next time you hose out the battery...no water actually reaches the ECU etc.

Australian Mini-Minors would always stop in rainy weather.... water-spray covered the distributor. Common fixes ranged from carrying dry rags and CRC.... to making rubber gloves to totally encase it all.

English Minis never stopped.... because they had a simple, cheap plastic shield that intercepted the spray.

BMC (later British Leyland) never thought 'water' would be a problem in a super hot & dry country like Australia... LR seem to think the same.

- Keep the water away from the Delicate Bits, instead of trying to make them waterproof....

[wrinklearthur]

Heat shrink sounds a bit extreme, if you mean encasing the entire ECU / plug in a huge tube of it... Not to mention expensive. 7 cents each !!!!


Easier way is to keep water OFF the ECU and the plug. Fabricate a 'roof' or umbrella or whatever, so next time you hose out the battery...no water actually reaches the ECU etc.
- Keep the water away from the Delicate Bits, instead of trying to make them waterproof.... I agree 100% on this.

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[Manjimobx7]

Hi,

I have a very similar problem and need some help please! I also made the mistake of pouring water on to the negative terminal of my battery causing the fault message "range change not available".
On the recommendation of a landcover specialist (who unsuccessfully tried to dry out the transfer case ECU, i purchased a new ECU and had that fitted by my local mechanic (I live 1 1/2 hours away from the Land Rover specialist).
Now the vehicle is permanently in low range and the symbol on the dash is flashing, the same message about range change is on the dash as is 'special programs not available".
Before I start looking for another problem, I'd like to know if the problem may be that ECU needs to be programmed, or shake hands with the vehicle and if so, which diagnostic tool could do it, or will I need to organise a trip to the specialist again?
Many thanks,
Andy.
2007 TDV6 SE D3

[Graeme]

A self-calibration is required for the transfer case ecu / transfer case. It is initiated by a particular diagnostic command to the TC ecu via the OBD port.

I was advised a couple of months ago by Gap Diagnostics that their IID tool (Bluetooth version) recently had this capability added for D3s. My Faultmate MSV does not have this capability and BBS have stated that they have no intention of providing it.

[Manjimobx7]

Thanks Graeme. Does anyone know of any other possibilities to reprogram the ECU or is this it?

[Graeme]

LR dealers can do it and an Autologic tool most likely also can it, which is what most LR specialist workshops use.