Shed insulation

[Scouse]

Hi all,

I'm finally at the stage where my new shed is 'happening' & I'm thinking about roof insulation.

The shed supplier (CSB at Narellan) has recommended E-therm from Thermotec which is a 5mm compressed foam between aluminium foil type of insulation.
Etherm for Metal Roofs | Thermotec (http://thermotec.com.au/products/thermal-insulation/e-therm/metal-roofs)

This is quite expensive compared to the bubble wrap between aluminium foil type that is available on eBay and other suppliers.
The eBay supplier for 4mm bubble (Insulations R Us) is 1/2 - 1/3 the price of the Thermotec product.
Insulation R us items - Get great deals on items on eBay Stores! (http://stores.ebay.com.au/Insulation-R-us?_trksid=p2047675.l2563)

CSB have told me that they stay away from the bubble insulations because they loose their air after a few years & just become loose foil.

There's so much conflicting information on the web & every manufacturer of course says theirs is the best so does anyone have any real life experiences with what works & what doesn't?


BTW, the shed is 10 x 22.5m & CSB have quoted $2900 to supply insulation. InsulationsRUS is $1170 to supply.

[Bundalene]

I know the thermotec material is excellent, having used it for heat proofing our Defenders.


There is a mechanical workshop across the road from us who have a low density bubble type of material as their insulation and they can't stop sparrows from destroying it and making their nests.



Erich

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Maybe sometimes Scott,
More is better.;)

[LandyAndy]

Have you priced antecon style insulation????
Fiberglass glued to foil. Use chicken wire to support it.
Andrew

[Don 130]

Check the R value of anything you consider. When I built a shed the builder would only fit the bubble type. After much enquiring I found out it was only R1.2. Not worth the money. I didn't fit any and haven't regretted it.

[Andrew D]

Well, to throw the cat amongst the pigeons, my old man put in the 'bubble wrap' and it made a noticeable difference and still does today.

The fibreglass (in my eyes) is old technology these days but still used and you do need the netting. The air bubble insulation is more rigid and typically doesn't need the netting.

Depending on your time frame I can do a bit of digging around for you because at the moment I'm currently in process of buying about 4 sheds of around 18 x 12 in size.

Happy to get their opinions and see what they say.

Regards
Andrew

[Kev the Fridgy]

Fibreglass may be "Old Technology" but have a very close look at "R" values, personally and IMO anything under R2.5 or preferably R3 is not worth the costs difference, from what I have seen F/Glass still out performs everything else when it comes to cost V R value per square meter, when it's all said and done you want the best performance you can afford.

[Vern]

I have the foam stuff but a different brand (made by air cell), I will never own another shed without putting this stuff in, in summer its definitely cooler in the shed than outside.
I spoke with the rep on this and he said the compressed foam stuff is better for sheds than the bubble stuff.

[JDNSW]

"The best you can afford" may not be necessary, depending what you are using the shed for and where you live - you probably are not living in it, and almost certainly neither heating nor cooling it, so power saving is not relevant. (If you are doing any of this then you may really need the best!)

Until quite recently, nobody even thought of insulating sheds in Australia.

My shed has the fibreglass/foil insulation, but only on the roof and western wall. This makes it quite comfortable to work in both winter and summer.

My view would be that any insulation will make a bigger difference than the differences between types.

John

[debruiser]

I put up a shed 18months ago, it's got the bubble wrap sorta stuff in the roof. Works ok. But I got my hands on a heap of 2inch coolite (it's the stuff that milk factories use to pack cheese) I cut it so that it jams between purlins. Did the roof (6x9 shed) and a little of 1 wall. Between the 2 the shed is pretty good to work work in.

My real problem now is that I was a tight-@*%# and only got a little tiny window down the back of the shed; there are also 2 big old roller doors down one end - or across the 6m side if you like so down the back of the shed doesn't get much ventilation. I need to invest in some sort of window/roof vent/ or some other such thing.

[ajge]

I have the foam stuff but a different brand (made by air cell), I will never own another shed without putting this stuff in, in summer its definitely cooler in the shed than outside.
I spoke with the rep on this and he said the compressed foam stuff is better for sheds than the bubble stuff.

Hello,
I am in the process of building a shed / workshop. I chose AirCell roof insulation. $369 for 45 square metres.
I had some left over after completing the roof, so I stuck it on the half the wall facing west. It makes a huge difference to the heat entering the shed. I am going to buy some more for the rest of that wall.
Not sure of the R rating tho
Regards
Andrew

[BilboBoggles]

Ten years ago we built a 200m2 shed, 5m roof height. I used fibreglass anti con mat in the roof as it was built. The walls I used poly batts, to attach I just used construction adhesive. On the inside I double lined with a second layer of corrugated iron. Looks really nice, and works well. We lived in that shed for 4 years, a single 3 kw reverse cycle ac was enough to take the heat edge off the 80m2 living section, and a wood burner kept it toasty warm throughout winter.

[dromader driver]

I've had good results with styrofoam sheet bonded with liquid nails onto the internal side of the colourbond. Agree with the floppy stuff being a haven for starlings and rats.

[Dougal]

I've just priced up materials for a ~150m^2 shed with R2.8 walls (90mm fibreglass batts) and R5 roof (200mm fibreglass batts).
It came to ~$NZ6k for walls and roof, with another $2k for 75mm of polystyrene in the floor.

But that's not the end of it, to get the best results you need to line the walls/roof to trap air. Each air gap is worth an R value of about 0.2. Batts which external or internal air can blow through are close to useless. I've got ~$NZ2700 down for gib to line the walls/roof, I haven't priced other options for lining, but considering corrugated iron on the inside of the pitched roof, need something tougher on the walls.

The aircell type insulation is IMO equivalent to building paper. It's enough for your moisture/condensation management but offers no insulation where it's pinched over rafters/purlines and isn't enough if you need to combat either heat or cold. I looked up the stuff used in a mates shed and it's only just R 1.0.

My big question is insulated shed doors. Roller doors are out with no insulation possible, tilt and sectional doors can take up a lot of room inside. Sliding doors are generally a maintenance PITA.

[Scouse]

Just coming back to this again after a while. The shed is being delivered in 2 weeks time :). Mind you, there's no slab yet so the build might be a little way off yet.


I know the thermotec material is excellent, having used it for heat proofing our Defenders.


There is a mechanical workshop across the road from us who have a low density bubble type of material as their insulation and they can't stop sparrows from destroying it and making their nests.



ErichThanks Erich, the last thing I want is my shed to become home to birds :mad: & have bits & pieces falling down.




Maybe sometimes Scott,
More is better.;)Maybe, but I just want to make sure after dealing with sales staff who often tell tales.






Check the R value of anything you consider. When I built a shed the builder would only fit the bubble type. After much enquiring I found out it was only R1.2. Not worth the money. I didn't fit any and haven't regretted it.


Fibreglass may be "Old Technology" but have a very close look at "R" values, personally and IMO anything under R2.5 or preferably R3 is not worth the costs difference, from what I have seen F/Glass still out performs everything else when it comes to cost V R value per square meter, when it's all said and done you want the best performance you can afford.The Thermotec insulation is:
E- therm 5mm = RO. 16
E- therm 6.5mm = RO. 20
E- therm 8mm = RO. 25
Information from here:
E-Therm Insulation | M.E.T. Sundry Supplies Pty Ltd (http://thevlpgroup.com/metsales/2013/05/14/e-therm-insulation/)


After enquiring direct to Thermotec, I've found they don't supply the general public. A call to their only distributor in Sydney (and talking to 2 staff members who didn't know they sold it), I found that the shed supplier was wanting to slap on a $1000 mark up.
I can get 240sqm of 5mm for $1888, 6.5mm for $1918 or 8mm for $2058.

For the sake of $170, I think I'll go for the 8mm stuff.

[Dougal]

The Thermotec insulation is:
E- therm 5mm = RO. 16
E- therm 6.5mm = RO. 20
E- therm 8mm = RO. 25
Information from here:
E-Therm Insulation | M.E.T. Sundry Supplies Pty Ltd (http://thevlpgroup.com/metsales/2013/05/14/e-therm-insulation/)


After enquiring direct to Thermotec, I've found they don't supply the general public. A call to their only distributor in Sydney (and talking to 2 staff members who didn't know they sold it), I found that the shed supplier was wanting to slap on a $1000 mark up.
I can get 240sqm of 5mm for $1888, 6.5mm for $1918 or 8mm for $2058.

For the sake of $170, I think I'll go for the 8mm stuff.

Numbers like that mean it's almost a waste of time. A sheet of building paper to create an airgap will give an R value of 0.2

A R value of 0.2 means with a temp of 60C on one side (roof in the sun) and 20C inside you'll be gaining heat at the rate of 200 watts per square metre.
Every 10 square meters is like having a fan heater inside.

If you can get R3 insulation into the roof you'll drop that to 13 watts per square metre.

[Saitch]

An interesting topic as I've often wondered how effective the stuff I put in 4 years ago really is so I've just done a little experiment.
The outside temp in direct sun, which my shed is, was 34.1 as shown on the Sontax thingo.
The inside shed temp was 27.2 as shown on the other thingo.
I had one car bay door open.
Shed is 6.5x12.5 C/bond on conc slab.
I used stuff called AIR-CELL INSULSHED.
Stamped as Oz made too.
Hope this helps.
Steve

[Basil135]

Is there a particular reason you are thinking of putting the slab down first?

When I built mine, I asked about which order to do it in, and the guy said that it didn't really matter, but with putting the slab in after the shed is built, it goes off a little slower, meaning less cracks, and it seals around the edges, helping to keep water out.

Just a thought... ;)

[Chucaro]

I built in Queensland 2 homes with Colorbond cladding and in both cases I used Air-Cell (http://www.kingspaninsulation.com.au/Products/Kingspan-Air-Cell/AIR-CELL-Glareshield/R-Values.aspx) in the roof and walls. The result was fantastic, we never used AC in both houses

[VladTepes]

Where you blokes get such big bloody sheds? Or room for em ? Ya buggers !

I'm in the house market at the moment (nightmare) and am hoping I'll be able to get a shed......

[Dougal]

I built in Queensland 2 homes with Colorbond cladding and in both cases I used Air-Cell (http://www.kingspaninsulation.com.au/Products/Kingspan-Air-Cell/AIR-CELL-Glareshield/R-Values.aspx) in the roof and walls. The result was fantastic, we never used AC in both houses

That stuff only gets to about an R value of 1.

[Chucaro]

That stuff only gets to about an R value of 1.

I am sure that now have a rate of RT2.1 but in any case it was approved as insulation under Queensland Building Laws.
Take note that there are several types of Air-Cell and some of them are only for sheds and commercial applications and others for residential purpose.

[Dougal]

I am sure that now have a rate of RT2.1 but in any case it was approved as insulation under Queensland Building Laws.
Take note that there are several types of Air-Cell and some of them are only for sheds and commercial applications and others for residential purpose.

Some of the shed insulation products have a rating that is "installed", meaning it's not the rating of the actual product, but the rating of the building construction with that product inside it.

For high R values the installed rating is actually lower as studs, purlins etc conduct heat/cold through (thermal bridges).
For low R value products the installed rating is higher as it gains a small amount from each air-gap and the conduction of thermal bridges isn't as significant because you have more heat coming in from everywhere else.

Keep in mind I'm not in Queensland. But the shed I plan to build will have at least R4 in the roof and at least R2.8 in the walls. Building code be damned, I'm insulating for my own comfort and long term cost reduction.

The office I'm sitting in right how has a black tile roof (can hit 80C in the sun) and originally had just building paper and 10mm boards in the ceiling. It was intolerable in full sun and you could feel the heat coming through. Even with all the windows open it was an oven that on a 30C day would be at ~37C inside.

Just over a year ago I fully lined it with R3.2 batts and a layer of Gib. Now it has no problem keeping at the outside ambient temperature under full sun.
You would be amazed how many people told me it would be hotter in summer with the insulation.:confused:

[Scouse]

Numbers like that mean it's almost a waste of time. A sheet of building paper to create an airgap will give an R value of 0.2

A R value of 0.2 means with a temp of 60C on one side (roof in the sun) and 20C inside you'll be gaining heat at the rate of 200 watts per square metre.
Every 10 square meters is like having a fan heater inside.

If you can get R3 insulation into the roof you'll drop that to 13 watts per square metre.Thermotec themselves are claiming a summer rating of 2.5 & winter of 1.4 for 5mm (pitched metal roof, no ventilation: Etherm for Thermal Performance | Thermotec (http://thermotec.com.au/products/thermal-insulation/e-therm/etherm-thermal-performance) ).
There's virtually no difference between 5mm & 8mm. I guess that means the air gap is more important than the material.


Is there a particular reason you are thinking of putting the slab down first?The shed frame is bolted to the slab. My current shed is on piers into the ground & I laid the slab last. This shed appears to be designed to be bolted onto the slab.


Where you blokes get such big bloody sheds? Or room for em ? Ya buggers !
Living out in the sticks has to have some plusses ;).

[Saitch]

Umm, yes.
The sticks does help.
My other shed is 7.5x14.5.
Sorry Vlad :angel:
Steve

[Dougal]

Thermotec themselves are claiming a summer rating of 2.5 & winter of 1.4 for 5mm (pitched metal roof, no ventilation: Etherm for Thermal Performance | Thermotec (http://thermotec.com.au/products/thermal-insulation/e-therm/etherm-thermal-performance) ).
There's virtually no difference between 5mm & 8mm. I guess that means the air gap is more important than the material.

Indeed.
It also means that the insulation isn't the part in the building offering the most resistance to heat transfer.

I was doing a lot of work last year on heat transfer to the air through stainless vs PVC piping. I was surprised to find virtually no difference.
In that situation the bottleneck (greatest resistance to heat transfer) was actually air against the outside of the pipes. The thickness or even material of the pipe was such a small contributor that it was irrelevant.

It was a serious WTF moment, but it did all eventually make sense.

The upshot is, there is a minimum thickness of insulation before it can make any difference. Below that minimum thickness, a single sheet of paper is just as effective as the air-gap is your insulation.

Like double glazed windows. Glass isn't the insulator. The air-gap is.

[Chucaro]

In the 2 steel homes that I have built the roof have a 15 cm air gap between the insulation and the inside face of the plaster board (15 cm purlins) and the walls have 10 cm gap. Because the insulation material was against the colorbond roof and the steel cladding I guess that was a big part why Air-Cell was so effective.

[Saitch]

Figures shmigures!
I know what I've got & it works!!!

[Vern]

Figures shmigures!
I know what I've got & it works!!!

Bingo saitch, as I said I have the air cell on my shed, (roof and walls) the other day it was 32 degrees here, 21 in the shed:)

[pop058]

Figures shmigures!
I know what I've got & it works!!!


Bingo saitch, as I said I have the air cell on my shed, (roof and walls) the other day it was 32 degrees here, 21 in the shed:)

Same as above, cannot quote figures, but find it works well. I would fit aircell (or similar) to more than half the sheds I build (30-40 a year). Ideally there should be a 40mm air gap (sag) between insulation and the shed roof although I find alot of customers prefer it to be taut as it does look better, just does not work as well.

[Andrew D]

Paul

With the air cell would you recommend to have the the steel netting or not. Your photos suggest it's not required (not installed in your photo anyway).

Regards
Andrew

[Chucaro]

Paul

With the air cell would you recommend to have the the steel netting or not. You photos suggest it's not required (not installed in your photo anyway).

Regards
Andrew

Have a look HERE (http://kingspaninsulation.com.au/design-guide/index.html) for technical installation.
And HERE for CAD drawings (http://kingspaninsulation.com.au/Literature/CAD-Drawings.aspx)

[pop058]

The mesh is a safety item used as part of a fall protection system. Not required in that job.

A couple of pics where wire was fitted (9.6mts to the eave)

[Dougal]

Bingo saitch, as I said I have the air cell on my shed, (roof and walls) the other day it was 32 degrees here, 21 in the shed:)

Must be nice and cool over-night.