BLOODY BRAKES

[banjo]

Ok so the wife goes & buys me a disco 1 .. YES she bought me one.. Anyway its always had spongy brakes & the 2 rubbers under the fluid resivor where leaking.. So I drained all the fluid & replaced the 2 rubbers & fitted all new brake pads.. Then I bleed the brakes CAR NOT RUNNING, & NON ABS & we gets a perfect pedal hard as a rock, Sweet.. So I start the car & the brakes are still SPONGY. So I jumps on the forum & read everything I could find & seems I am bleeding the brakes correctly . So I read on threw more threads , & someone had the same problem as me & was told it was the booster So I have gone out today & bought a new one. BUT I desided to rebleed the brakes again since the car has been started & moved , So I bled each nipple 5 times every nipple & not one bubble anywhere. So I starts the car again & still the same..I have checked all flexible hoses with the car running & not running theres no swelling at all so its not those.. So I will replace the booster tomorrow BUT I don't want to drain the system & rebleed it all.. So was wondering if anyone has changed out the booster without taking the master cylinder off. I am going to try but just thought someone here may have done it & can tell me about it.. When I built the green series I made the brake pipes a tad longer near the master cylinder just in case I ever needed to change out the booster.. Also the car is a 1992 3.5 EFI 5 speed. IS there anything else I should be looking for..So if anyone has any ideas what to look for now & anything else I should be looking at.. Also the brake light switch don't work properly as the lights stay on. I read someone has same problem so had a look at my switch it doesn't seem to be adjustable like what I read about so ill either need to replace or do what others have done & put a small screw in the end of it :D.. Anyway I hope use can understand my ramblings & whats going on.

Thanks for any help guys


Cheers Jason..

[banjo]

Oh yeah the car is registered & ive spend a heap on doing it up all so I can have a pretty garden ornament. So yeah need to sort the brakes..

Thanks Jason..




All pics I have are in the emmbaracement thread if use are interested . Bout 10 pages back from the end..




I'm starting to HATE this car so much & I haven't even had the chance to drive the bloody thing,,. GGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRR

[Dougal]

It's not the booster. A booster not working gives a hard pedal, not a soft one.

Have you taken it out for a drive? It could be your brakes are fine but expectations somewhat different.

[banjo]

It's not the booster. A booster not working gives a hard pedal, not a soft one.

Have you taken it out for a drive? It could be your brakes are fine but expectations somewhat different.

Na haven't driven yet brakes don't work well enough for me to drive.. Pedal is perfect when engine not running & only spongy when running.. I read someone had same problem as me & they where told the booster wasn't working so I was just going off what they was told.. I have never driven a disco before so have no idea as to what a good pedal feels like BUT this pedal doesn't feel right at all..way to spongy yet I can get any air out of the lines anymore just nice clean fluid with no bubbles & ive bled them heaps so I know theres no air in them as I have put 3 BOTTLES of fluid threw the system as I like to be certain..

Thanks Jason

[Dougal]

Na haven't driven yet brakes don't work well enough for me to drive.. Pedal is perfect when engine not running & only spongy when running.. I read someone had same problem as me & they where told the booster wasn't working so I was just going off what they was told.. I have never driven a disco before so have no idea as to what a good pedal feels like BUT this pedal doesn't feel right at all..way to spongy yet I can get any air out of the lines anymore just nice clean fluid with no bubbles & ive bled them heaps so I know theres no air in them as I have put 3 BOTTLES of fluid threw the system as I like to be certain..

Thanks Jason

If you haven't driven it, then how do you know they aren't good enough to drive it?:confused:

On my rangie a rock hard pedal with the engine off is the sign the bleed was good.

[banjo]

If you haven't driven it, then how do you know they aren't good enough to drive it?:confused:

On my rangie a rock hard pedal with the engine off is the sign the bleed was good.

Have moved it around the yard a bit & it doesn't pull up very good.. YES this is my first modern landy but after close to 25 years building breaking & fixing landrovers one would think I would have some idea as to what feels right & what doesn't.. Not being nasty to you at all just saying this isn't my first dance with brakes.. & these don't feel right at all.. YES the pedal is PERFECT after I bled them & the car not running but when I start it the pedal is just way to spongy.. The pedal IMO should still be hard to some degree when the car is running & the brakes have vacumn..

After I have T I will find the other threads I read & post a link of what I have read & why I got the new booster. Someone else had the EXACT same problem as mine & was told the booster is leaking.. ONLY GOING ON WHAT I HAVE READ.. BUT since this is my first modern landy with disc brakes all round I thought I would ask for sugestions..

[banjo]

This thread is the same as what im having

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-1/130129-spongy-brakes.html


And this thread tells me I am bleeding them all in the correct way.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-1/83501-brake-bleed-sequence.html


And this thread tell me about the brake light switch problem i'm having is the same as this persons.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-1/149733-brake-light-switch.html

[98discovery]

You make mention that all pads were replaced. I recently replaced all my pads and can say for certain that the pedal will feel very spongey until you take it for a run and let them bed in a little. Mine took probably the first 100km to feel their best but after a short drive improved dramaticallyThis is normal and will vary depending on the condition of the disc surface and how you drive. Interestingly the pads I fitted advised against any bedding in process , rather just to avoid hard breaking for the first 100km.

[Dougal]

You make mention that all pads were replaced. I recently replaced all my pads and can say for certain that the pedal will feel very spongey until you take it for a run and let them bed in a little. Mine took probably the first 100km to feel their best but after a short drive improved dramaticallyThis is normal and will vary depending on the condition of the disc surface and how you drive. Interestingly the pads I fitted advised against any bedding in process , rather just to avoid hard breaking for the first 100km.

Indeed. New pads on worn rotors wil feel a bit mushy until they wear to fit the not-flat rotor surface.

[banjo]

I will take it for a small drive this morning & see how it goes before I change out the booster. Can try it anyway..

[Vern]

Check your rubber brakes hoses for swelling. Mine did this, then I swapped them for braided ones, best move ever

[chang]

Took mine about 100k to feel their best on old rotors.

Are the rotors clean without any antisqeal or antiseize on em or brake fluid, same as pads??? Can be an easy mistake to make & that would cause probs.

New pads wont grab as good as once they are bedded in & combine that with stuff on the rotors & pads, more effort & pedal travel will be needed to pull her up, even in the backyard at low speed it will feel crap.

[banjo]

Check your rubber brakes hoses for swelling. Mine did this, then I swapped them for braided ones, best move ever

Yes checked those all good..


Took mine about 100k to feel their best on old rotors.

Are the rotors clean without any antisqeal or antiseize on em or brake fluid, same as pads??? Can be an easy mistake to make & that would cause probs.

New pads wont grab as good as once they are bedded in & combine that with stuff on the rotors & pads, more effort & pedal travel will be needed to pull her up, even in the backyard at low speed it will feel crap.


Na made sure everything was clean before I put the pads in..


The wife just took the car upto all4x4 at Kotara to see the owner as he's a friend of ours & he took the car for a drive.. II just heard from her & he says there binding && BINDING BADLY somewhere or something.. They said something about pressure in the lines .. Have no idea what would be binding or why its binding..Will wait see what else he said when they get home..

[banjo]

Ok the wifes back & Peter says they are working ok BUT there is something wrong in there somewhere.Says they are binding badly & staying on somewhat. He doesn't think its the hand brake & neither do I as its on the back of the gearbox & has nothing to do with the foot pedal or the brakes other then its the hand brake.. Wife parked out the front when she got back. So I went got car & bought it back in the yard , We have a slight incline coming up into the yard & driveway is inclined when was reversing back in about half way up I stoped & when I took my foot off the pedal it rolled forward but only just BUT when I pulled the pedal up with my foot it rolled freely & easly until I put my foot on brakes again & it did the same then I pulled pedal up with my foot again & it roll easily & freely.. So theres something wrong somewhere.. Got a price on all new pistons & seals for all the brake calipers $180 for everything so mite have to do that & work my way back to the pedal.. I have no idea anymore & have just about had enough of it all together..

[Dougal]

So why not jack up each wheel and see how they turn?

[chang]

If your having to pull the pedal back up to relieve pressure, my money would be on the master cylinder. May have crud in the ports not allowing fluid to flow back to the bottle & relieve pressure or damage inside the bore of the master etc. the seals you installed for bottle all good, not blocking fluid or kicked over etc???

[banjo]

So why not jack up each wheel and see how they turn?


Have done this & all turn freely even after putting brakes on.

[banjo]

If your having to pull the pedal back up to relieve pressure, my money would be on the master cylinder. May have crud in the ports not allowing fluid to flow back to the bottle & relieve pressure or damage inside the bore of the master etc. the seals you installed for bottle all good, not blocking fluid or kicked over etc???

I thought of that so pulled em out again to check & all good..& they don't leak now so bonus LOL

[Dougal]

Have done this & all turn freely even after putting brakes on.

And did you see any stuck pistons or evidence of previously stuck piston while doing this?

[banjo]

And did you see any stuck pistons or evidence of previously stuck piston while doing this?

I honestly cant remember . These brakes are doing my bloody head in.. Its to hot out in the sun now so will take each wheel off in the morning & do it again then I can tell you.. Just seems funny that if you pull the pedal back with your foot its all fine & the car will roll freely.. I was starting to think its just the bloody spring on the pedal..

[Dougal]

You need to check all the basics before randomly swapping parts like boosters.

[banjo]

Well the only thing I got done today was to adjust the handbrake ..Gets to hot out in the sun..

[banjo]

Ok so this morning I took each wheel off & did as follows.
turned the hubs they turned easy. So got wife to put brakes on they stoped fine.. So got multigrips & held each pad open then got wife to brake & there working so got the wife to go on & off on the pedal with me opening the pads so they went back as far as they could each time so they are all working fine.. Then she went on & off the pedal as I turned the hubs & they where working fine as should.. Disc brakes don't retract they just release the pressure & that's what they where doing they would clamp the disc then release the pressure so they could turn ..Theres not much room for them to move back anyway as there all brandnew pads.. I also taped lightly around each caliper with a small hammer just to be sure .. THEY ARE ALL WORKING FINE & AS THEY SHOULD.. I also taped lightly around the master cylinder with the brakes on & off to see if any different..

When I was finished I started the car & moved back & forth They are still the same spongy as ever .. & I have bled them quiet a few times && flushed the system first then put 3 bottles of fluid threw them so there is deffantly no air in them..


So any ideas ????

[waltsd]

I had brake issues with the vacum pump, was replaced, but brakes still not stopping properly. The mechanic looked in the servo unit and was full of oil. That was replaced and I can't believe how good these brakes are on the Disco now. It's amazing how well they now work, non ABS, almosts gives you whiplash at the stopping power now. Anyway, I don't know much about brakes, but is there a way to check the Servo unit??

[cookey]

Hi Jason,
just came across this thread and sorry to hear you are having so much grief with the brakes. It must be really ****ing you off by now:confused::confused::confused:
Sounds to me like your problem is in the pedal/booster/master cylinder.
A couple of small checks to make:
1) pedal MUST have free play before actuating the brakes (this is adjustable)
2) pedal should fully return against stopper (maybe lubricate the pivot)
3) there MUST be clearance between between the rod coming out of the booster and the master cylinder piston. To check this back off all the nuts holding the master cylinder to the booster by about 3 threads and then try the brakes again. If this cures the problem then you will have to unbolt the master cylinder, move it forward a bit, and adjust the rod coming out of the booster.(you will have to wind it in 1-2 turns)

Hope this helps,
Cookey

[banjo]

Hi Jason,
just came across this thread and sorry to hear you are having so much grief with the brakes. It must be really ****ing you off by now:confused::confused::confused:
Sounds to me like your problem is in the pedal/booster/master cylinder.
A couple of small checks to make:
1) pedal MUST have free play before actuating the brakes (this is adjustable)
2) pedal should fully return against stopper (maybe lubricate the pivot)
3) there MUST be clearance between between the rod coming out of the booster and the master cylinder piston. To check this back off all the nuts holding the master cylinder to the booster by about 3 threads and then try the brakes again. If this cures the problem then you will have to unbolt the master cylinder, move it forward a bit, and adjust the rod coming out of the booster.(you will have to wind it in 1-2 turns)

Hope this helps,
Cookey

Thanks Cookey, Yeah just about had enough. got the car cheap spend a heap on getting all the accessories for it ready to use now this.. I knew there was something when we bought the car about the brakes & I thought yeah new pads allround & flush the whole system & bleed them,,. But no not my luck.. I'll check what you've said tomorrow .. Though the pedal moves freely it just seems to not return all the way & turn the brake lights off..

The other day in the driveway since its an incline up our drive I stoped halfway up & when I took my foot off the pedal it rolled but not what you would expect & when I pulled the pedal up with my foot it rolled freely & easy. Mind you when you pull the pedal up its not like its on the floor its only say an 8th of an inch at most..

We just wanted to try & better ourselves with a bit more modern car.. Start to go forward only to go backwards faster. GGGGGRRRRRRR.

I'm sure it will be sorted soon enough I hope as its just a pretty lawn ornament at the moment. I will look at what you have advised tomorrow if it doesn't rain anyway..

Thanks Jason

[banjo]

I had brake issues with the vacum pump, was replaced, but brakes still not stopping properly. The mechanic looked in the servo unit and was full of oil. That was replaced and I can't believe how good these brakes are on the Disco now. It's amazing how well they now work, non ABS, almosts gives you whiplash at the stopping power now. Anyway, I don't know much about brakes, but is there a way to check the Servo unit??

That's exactly how they should work without any sponginess to them aswell.. :(:(:(:mad::mad:

[rangieman]

Sounds like the master cyclinder to me , Seems to me like the fluid is by passing the seals in side they can do this with out leaking , Check in side of the car firewall for tell tale signs , Maybe put a kit through the M/C or just grab a good second handy to try;)

[Dougal]

Sounds like the master cyclinder to me , Seems to me like the fluid is by passing the seals in side they can do this with out leaking , Check in side of the car firewall for tell tale signs , Maybe put a kit through the M/C or just grab a good second handy to try;)

If they do that, then the pedal will fade to the floor under steady pressure over maybe 10-40 seconds. But still stops fine in spite of that.

Mine would do this. I put a seal kit through every maybe 5 years and it helped. But I finally just bought a new MC from the UK. Problem gone.

[rangieman]

If they do that, then the pedal will fade to the floor under steady pressure over maybe 10-40 seconds. But still stops fine in spite of that.

Mine would do this. I put a seal kit through every maybe 5 years and it helped. But I finally just bought a new MC from the UK. Problem gone.

Jason is quoting spongie fading pedal :wallbash:

[Dougal]

Jason is quoting spongie fading pedal :wallbash:

A hard but fading pedal is not a spongey pedal. He needs to get his descriptions right if he wants the right help.

A fading pedal will fade with the engine off and no vacuum. He's not reported this yet.

[Tank]

Ok so the wife goes & buys me a disco 1 .. YES she bought me one.. Anyway its always had spongy brakes & the 2 rubbers under the fluid resivor where leaking.. So I drained all the fluid & replaced the 2 rubbers & fitted all new brake pads.. Then I bleed the brakes CAR NOT RUNNING, & NON ABS & we gets a perfect pedal hard as a rock, Sweet.. So I start the car & the brakes are still SPONGY. So I jumps on the forum & read everything I could find & seems I am bleeding the brakes correctly . So I read on threw more threads , & someone had the same problem as me & was told it was the booster So I have gone out today & bought a new one. BUT I desided to rebleed the brakes again since the car has been started & moved , So I bled each nipple 5 times every nipple & not one bubble anywhere. So I starts the car again & still the same..I have checked all flexible hoses with the car running & not running theres no swelling at all so its not those.. So I will replace the booster tomorrow BUT I don't want to drain the system & rebleed it all.. So was wondering if anyone has changed out the booster without taking the master cylinder off. I am going to try but just thought someone here may have done it & can tell me about it.. When I built the green series I made the brake pipes a tad longer near the master cylinder just in case I ever needed to change out the booster.. Also the car is a 1992 3.5 EFI 5 speed. IS there anything else I should be looking for..So if anyone has any ideas what to look for now & anything else I should be looking at.. Also the brake light switch don't work properly as the lights stay on. I read someone has same problem so had a look at my switch it doesn't seem to be adjustable like what I read about so ill either need to replace or do what others have done & put a small screw in the end of it :D.. Anyway I hope use can understand my ramblings & whats going on.

Thanks for any help guys


Cheers Jason..
Do your front brake calipers hav 2 seperate brake lines going into the caliper, if so there is a third bleed nipple on the outside of the caliper (wheel side) which needs the wheel to be removed to bleed. Also it needs to be bled in conjunction with one of the 2 nipples on the inside of the caliper. Get hold of the workshop manual for correct bleeding of these type front calipers. If these nipples haven't been bled before (and if it has the 3rd. nipple it likely hasn't) then the top outside piston will be full of muck and water, if not the setup I've described, can't help except to wish you luck, regards Frank.

[snowbound]

If you have replaced all the pads and not driven it any distance, then they won't have bedded in. I bought a brand new van once, the first time I drove it' it scared the beejesus out of me as the brakes were useless! They soon improved, but it's worth considering. As previous poster says, 3 bleed nipple on the front are tricky! I found the best way was to waste some fluid by not putting any bits of rubber pipe or anything on the nipples, just let em squirt! :eek: Mate, I feel your pain though, I was so exhausted taking those bloody wheels on & off.

[banjo]

Do your front brake calipers hav 2 seperate brake lines going into the caliper, if so there is a third bleed nipple on the outside of the caliper (wheel side) which needs the wheel to be removed to bleed. Also it needs to be bled in conjunction with one of the 2 nipples on the inside of the caliper. Get hold of the workshop manual for correct bleeding of these type front calipers. If these nipples haven't been bled before (and if it has the 3rd. nipple it likely hasn't) then the top outside piston will be full of muck and water, if not the setup I've described, can't help except to wish you luck, regards Frank.

Yes the front has the 3 nipples & I have bled all 3.. The correct way.. Deffantly no gunk in them bleeding it with 3 bottles of fluid made sure of that..

[banjo]

If you have replaced all the pads and not driven it any distance, then they won't have bedded in. I bought a brand new van once, the first time I drove it' it scared the beejesus out of me as the brakes were useless! They soon improved, but it's worth considering. As previous poster says, 3 bleed nipple on the front are tricky! I found the best way was to waste some fluid by not putting any bits of rubber pipe or anything on the nipples, just let em squirt! :eek: Mate, I feel your pain though, I was so exhausted taking those bloody wheels on & off.


YES bloody sic of taking the wheels off. Plus I hate those wheel nuts who the hell thought that those caps on them was a good idea needs shooting..

[banjo]

OK my brakes are SPONGY & when you pull the brake pedal back with your foot the tinny bit that it needs the car will roll freely down the driveway.. It does roll without doing this but not freely.. I have checked all the caliper & all are working as they should . I guess there could be some slight bit of air in the fronts but I don't think so.. THE MASTER CYLINDER was leaking under the resivor so I replaced the 2 rubbers under it .. But it looks like it has been leaking for some time & the master cylinder doesn't look that goos as it has made a mess of it.. NOW with all the calipers working as they should the only other part that moves is the master cylinder other then the pedal which I think is fine , I think the master cylinder is stuffed , I wont put kits threw them so I am going to replace the master cylinder & rebleed . BUT I will drain all fluid before I replace as its just easier & doesn't make as much mess that way I can bleed from scratch..IT feels like theres air in them with the sponginess of them that's why we thought just a bleed & they would be fine ..But with everything else working as should I think its the master cylinder. YES these are my first disc brakes on a landy but not my first disc brakes..
I hope I have described them correctly .. I do realise they need to bed in but there spongy aswell & to spongy to say they just need to bed in..
The engine miss I mentioned comes & goes , Its just a burnt lead , you can see where the lead is burnt from shorting on a bit of metal. I have new leads & plus which I will put on today while I wait for the wife to get home & after she has done the shopping we will get a master cylinder..
I also know those front calipers can be a pain in the ass to bleed correctly ..


Does that all make sence ??

[Dougal]

If you've got a rock hard pedal with the engine off, then the MC is fine.

If you've got a pedal that falls down by itself, then get a new return spring.

If you've just replaced pads, then they will need to wear to the shape of the used rotors before the brakes will work properly.

If you've got a really spongey pedal, check all 5 of your flex lines. One of them could have a rip in it's internal braiding which is letting it swell.

[banjo]

If you've got a rock hard pedal with the engine off, then the MC is fine.

If you've got a pedal that falls down by itself, then get a new return spring.

If you've just replaced pads, then they will need to wear to the shape of the used rotors before the brakes will work properly.

If you've got a really spongey pedal, check all 5 of your flex lines. One of them could have a rip in it's internal braiding which is letting it swell.


Have checked the flexable hoses several times defiantly no swelling.. I will get a return spring first & see what happens..

[460cixy]

If the master has been leaking there's a fair chance the booster will be full of fluid and no longer serviceable pull the master forward and get some thin electrical cable and poke down inside if it comes out wet with fluid your looking at a new booster. But seriously you need to put a couple of hundred kilometres on the new pads before they will even look like bedding in to the old ****ty rotors.

[banjo]

OK so I got a return spring for the pedal & now the pedal comes all the way back & the brake lights are now going off.. I also rebled the front brakes as I think I may have done them separate not the 2 together so redid..

I took the car for a drive today up hills down hills stoping lots.. They still feel spongy but are working ok. So ill give it the benefit of the doubt with the new pads.. Doesn't skid if you hit the brakes hard but it does stop..Doesnt seem to need much pressure on the pedal to slow down & stop..

I will get the wife to take it to ALL4x4 again just to get a second opinion BUT I THINK THERE FINE .SO ill say there sorted & just need to bed in.. So I thank everyone for there help it was very appreciated.. Now to get out & enjoy it.:D:D

Thanks again everyone..

[rangieman]

So did SWMBO take it to All 4X4 what was the outcome ?

[banjo]

So did SWMBO take it to All 4X4 what was the outcome ?

YES all sorted. They still feel spongy to me BUT the owner of all4x4 Our friend he says there fine & one of the mechanics said there fine.. So I guess there fine .. We have been using it a bit now & im used to the feel ( I don't like it but used to it ).tried to fit the second battery under the bonnet on the passengers side after I moved everything out of the way only to have the battery be to big , Yes I measured it first but with the top of the inside guard it tapers a bit so wont fit. So have picked up some MDF today to make drawers & a fridge slid in the back of the car..