Towing Capacity

[LandroverScott]

G'day,

I was hoping someone can help

What is the "official" towing capacity of a Perentie 110? can't seem to find it anywhere, checked the RPS etc etc.....

What is the "real" towing capacity, I would have thought 3t..........

thanks in advance
Scott

[isuzutoo-eh]

Probably 3500kg braked, one would expect it'd be the same as a civvy 110 of the same design but I can't check the numbers at the moment.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Herman Vlothuizen in the Netherlands collects original Land Rover brochures from all over the world.

This is the spec sheet for the civvy One Ten, note that it doesn't include the Australian spec 4BD1, but you wouldn't go too far wrong if you used the V8/LT95 110 spec.

http://www.landrover.vlothuizen.nl/images/brochures/4001/4001-17.jpg
http://www.landrover.vlothuizen.nl/images/brochures/4001/4001-17.jpg

[87County]

Hayman -Reece towbar for the County is marked 4000kg (braked), 750kg (unbraked), 180kg towball weight

[LandroverScott]

Thankyou everyone, that answers my question

regards
Scott

[oowa]

Rated to tow 900kg, later upgraded to 1200 kg, that's it unless you get it re- engineered.

Cheers

[rangietragic]

I would think the REAL towing capacity would equal or better the rr classic which was 4000kg or emergency slow short distance 6000 kg.

[isuzutoo-eh]

I would think the REAL towing capacity would equal or better the rr classic which was 4000kg or emergency slow short distance 6000 kg.

Disc braked Rangie versus rear drum braked 110? I know which I'd rather try to stop a trailer with.

[oowa]

I would think the REAL towing capacity would equal or better the rr classic which was 4000kg or emergency slow short distance 6000 kg.


I bought my perentie, partly cause I wanted to tow my car trailer, with my mb jeep on the back, bit saddened to know find out I can't just do it.
I haven't taken it to an engineer, but I know $$$ would be involved, I am sure the Landy is capable, just not legal to do it, not worth my insurance to try.

Cheers
Bruce

[Blknight.aus]

750kg unbraked

1200kg max towed load

as in accordance with the veh-g-100

[Bearman]

750kg unbraked

1200kg max towed load

as in accordance with the veh-g-100

That 1200kg would be with override brakes. Tow vehicle controlled electric all wheel brakes would be in the 3500 - 4000kg range.

[Blknight.aus]

That 1200kg would be with override brakes. Tow vehicle controlled electric all wheel brakes would be in the 3500 - 4000kg range.

not designed to have them....

the book says.....

but that said

and I know a certain ex aj raffie who won himself a whole pallet of beer (well it seemed that much when everyone who took up the "bet me a carton" paid up) by tow starting a cent with a perentie...

might have also used them to tow 8 and 20 ton trailers when he couldnt get a mack or a mog and could have hauled more than one bushmaster around with them....

it wouldnt take too many dollars to get an engineer to uprate the GCM if you could show that the hitch is rated to 4000KG and that you had retrofited a teshonka trailer brake controller to suit....

[oowa]

That 1200kg would be with override brakes. Tow vehicle controlled electric all wheel brakes would be in the 3500 - 4000kg range.

I hear you Brian, I am certain it can tow those figures, but law is law and insurance claims the way they are, I just can't risk the legalities.

Bruce

[87County]

I bought my perentie, partly cause I wanted to tow my car trailer, with my mb jeep on the back, bit saddened to know find out I can't just do it.
I haven't taken it to an engineer, but I know $$$ would be involved, I am sure the Landy is capable, just not legal to do it, not worth my insurance to try.

Cheers
Bruce

want to sell it ? :)

[101 Ron]

That rating would be a off road rating???????.
should be able to go to 2000kg with dual axle over ride brakes with out mods and a engineering cert.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

not designed to have them....

the book says.....

but that said

and I know a certain ex aj raffie who won himself a whole pallet of beer (well it seemed that much when everyone who took up the "bet me a carton" paid up) by tow starting a cent with a perentie...

might have also used them to tow 8 and 20 ton trailers when he couldnt get a mack or a mog and could have hauled more than one bushmaster around with them....

it wouldnt take too many dollars to get an engineer to uprate the GCM if you could show that the hitch is rated to 4000KG and that you had retrofited a teshonka trailer brake controller to suit....Then there was the 110 Pretendie that towed Mark W's WWII Mack T Rex out of a bog at Corowa Airport in 2010. The T Rex was down to its hubs on one side.

[paulak]

Gday, Im in the process of making my own tow hitch. Im using 125 mm x 75 mm rectangular section with 5 mm walls. A MrHitch receiver with a 8 mm plate gusset. Photos when its done. My question is how strong are the 4 bolts holding the original pintle hook on? Im hoping I don't need to drill out the original holes Thanks. Paul

[rathgar]

750kg unbraked

1200kg max towed load

as in accordance with the veh-g-100

Here we go again.

But l still not convinced this has been resolved.

Who wrote veh-g-100 the army or the manufacturer?

[weeds]

Here we go again.

But l still not convinced this has been resolved.

Who wrote veh-g-100 the army or the manufacturer?

The ARMY have a big input I would say........

I would have my two bobs worth but the emus would have to pull the heads out of the sand first :):):)

[Homestar]

So, if it looks like a 110, is registered as a 110, why would anyone assume it can't tow like a 110...?

I'm sure most cops or Vicroads people would have no idea that it has a lower rating, which I sure would be based on towing under all conditions? The 3,500 or 4,000Kg limits that apply to the civy 110 are only based for on road use.

I would (and eventually will) be using one to tow my 101 around. Or maybe a 6x6 - which I assume have the same ratings as the 110's?

[rathgar]

The only document I can find that is written by the MANUFACTURER is the Australian Owners supplement for the civilian 110 which gives a GCM showing a 4000kg towing capacity. This document http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/2005_10_towingtrailers.pdf (http://http:/www.rms.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/2005_10_towingtrailers.pdf)provides some interesting comments relating to Pre 1992 vehicles, vehicles where the towbar is a permanent part of the vehicle and vehicles where the manufacturer has not specified the maximum towing mass (2250kg x 1.5 = 3375kg).

[simmo]

My understanding is the max towing for a defender 110 is 3500 kg, (like most landrovers) I think the small print says "at the maximum GVM" Maximum GVM of a defender is about 3000 kgs or 3100kgs. Defender net weight is just over 2000 kgs. Most of the increase in weight between the net and GVM will be on the back wheels

I think the idea is you can't tow a 3500 kg trailer with a 2000 kg car, so the car has plenty of traction on the road, and the trailer can't take over.:eek:

[oowa]

[QUOTE=bacicat;2162226]So, if it looks like a 110, is registered as a 110, why would anyone assume it can't tow like a 110...?

I'm sure most cops or Vicroads people would have no idea that it has a lower rating, which I sure would be based on towing under all conditions? The 3,500 or 4,000Kg limits that apply to the civy 110 are only based for on road use.

I would (and eventually will) be using one to tow my 101 around. Or maybe a 6x6 - which I assume have the same ratings as the 110's?[/QUOTE


When you eventually will, start towing hope your insurance never finds out, I wish I was as brave as you.




Bruce

[oowa]

It is my understanding, that the word "Defender" is not on my compliance plate, just "Military 110"


Until someone re engineers or new paperwork for " Military 110" or has the word "Perentie 4 x 4 ,no point in talking about Civilian vehicles, or what people "Think", The rating IS 1200 kg until someone changes it..

[rathgar]

...The rating IS 1200 kg until someone changes it..

You speak with great authority. Can you please share the MANUFACTURERS documentation that you base this on please.

[JDNSW]

It is my understanding, that the word "Defender" is not on my compliance plate, just "Military 110"


Until someone re engineers or new paperwork for " Military 110" or has the word "Perentie 4 x 4 ,no point in talking about Civilian vehicles, or what people "Think", The rating IS 1200 kg until someone changes it..

"Defender" was not used until 1989, so of course it is not used on your compliance plate. Earlier Landrover documentation simply refers to the 110, and the Landrover 110 (not Defender) Owners Handbook specifies a maximum towing mass of 3500kg.

John

[UncleHo]

All Perenties were badged as 110's and not the civilian post 89 Defender,even the late 1990-91 build Perenties.remember that the Isuzu 4BD1 came from the 8 tonne truck,and the strengthened LT95 (LT95A) came from both the Rangie Classic and the 101 and their towing capacity is listed as 4 ton (4000kgs)

Most horse and farm trailers in the 1970's UK would have had a load capacity of that.

cheers

[oowa]

EMEIs

VEH G 102:
ADF 110 4x4 is rated to tow 1200kg max.

VEH H 020:
1/2T trailer is max weight at 800kg

VEH H 090:
750kg trailer is max weight at 1200kg.

[oowa]

G'Day.
EDE Project Perentie Profile states towed load of up 900kg.

EMEI G102, Tech Description of Truck, Utility, lightweight, P53 #157 states"...the towing pintle has a recommended towing capacity of 1200kg for both highway and cross-country operation."

Technical manual, User Handbook, Truck, FFR LtWt, states there is an approved towing pintle, but does not specify a weight.

Technical manual, User Handbook, Truck, Infantry Carrier, Lt, FF states
Maximum towed load: 2000kg

So, to get legalish...
The user manual is refered to as the highest authority unless over-rided by national legislation.
The Tech Manual, Use H'Book is not a LR publication.
So the argument then falls to: What does the civvy equivalent LR docs quote for the chassis and what is the manufacturers Max load rating?
What document would the Insurance assessor refer too ?
mmmm

[oowa]

Towing Capacity (http://remlr.com/forum/index.php'topic=1781.0)


Been discussed on REMLR pretty much as is here>

[Blknight.aus]

easy way to check, check the data plates on the vehicle.

thats what you have to go of, that or the manufacturers hand book.

the manufacturers hand book for the GS perentie is...

EMEI Veh G 100

there is also a UHB number for it which gets you exactly the same document.

[rathgar]

Round and round we go.

The user manuals are written by the army not the manufacturer. What we are looking for is a document by Land Rover (JRA) and so far through all of these discussions no one has produced one. Therefore the RMS document ( for NSW) provides guidelines for such cases.

A similar example might be an ex rental trailer from a fleet such as Kennards. The fleet operator has documented that no trailer may be towed in excess of 80kph. So if I buy one from a disposal sale can I only ever drive at 80? I don't think so.

Or in the case of the Land Rover 110 the user has told me I can tow 1200kg unbraked! That is illegal I am sure.

[rathgar]

And one more thing. I have been over the data plates on my vehicle and have not found one stating towing capacity or GCM where would one be located?

[oowa]

When you do find such documents, please pass them along, only then will I tow my Caravan or jeep on the car trailer.

[rathgar]

And without those documents in NSW I will tow inaccordance with th RMS document that sets out what is the maximum as tare weight x 1.5 or 2250 x 1.5 = 3175kg

As confidently as you state 1200 kg l say 3175kg

[101RRS]

And without those documents in NSW I will tow inaccordance with th RMS document that sets out what is the maximum as tare weight x 1.5 or 2250 x 1.5 = 3175kg

i say you will be on shakey ground and leaving yourself open for possible grief in the future.

Unlike most vehicles where the specifications are set by the manufacturer, the Perenti was commissioned by the Army to be built to the specifications stipulated by the Army not Landrover, so the tow capacity is as specified in the Army documentation - unless you get it engineered differently.

Tow at 3175kg at your legal peril.

Garry

[rathgar]

I wont be on shakey ground because I will continue to investigate the issue. But given that I wont accept that a user produced document is the same as a manufacturers. Unless someone here has more documentation then the answer lies elsewhere.

[101 Ron]

The manufactures ......Landrover specs for the 6x6 perentie is only 1500kg or there abouts and is in writing from from the factory and not army.
Sorry if we cannot not give you want you want to hear.
I have no info on the 4x4 perentie which should be less than a 6x6.

[Blknight.aus]

i say you will be on shakey ground and leaving yourself open for possible grief in the future.

Unlike most vehicles where the specifications are set by the manufacturer, the Perenti was commissioned by the Army to be built to the specifications stipulated by the Army not Landrover, so the tow capacity is as specified in the Army documentation - unless you get it engineered differently.

Tow at 3175kg at your legal peril.

Garry

And theres the money shot.

for rathgar...

there isnt an ubraked in service trailer that has a design GVM for the trailer of over 750KG, every trailer that goes over 750KG has at a minimum over run brakes fitted to it and while yes, the perentie will quite easily move in service trailers with much higher weights than this its not designed to because it doesnt have a braking system fitted that can operate the brakes on the trailer.

on paper the tow pack fitted to my disco is good for 3500KG, it doesnt say anywhere on the tow pack that I have to have brakes fitted to it to do so it just says I can pull a 3.5T trailer..

Id love to see a copy of the user manual that you have that tells you you can tow 1200kg unbraked because that means you've skipped past the associated documentation part of the manual that tells you to refer to SOVO's and other emeis that then stipulate what and how you can and cant tow.

The MAX GCM for the 4x4 variants of the perentie is... 4.5T. which means if you have one of the heavier variants (RFSV, RSV, FFR W/Winch) you loose the ability to haul trailer mass.

let me give you a hint. Get a copy of the UHB for the variant you want/have in it is a liability number, dig long enough and hard enough and that ties into all the documentation that ever existed for the variant from the design spec to as delivered SCES, Equipment Kit SCES, RPS, EMEI, AAP, Block Scale, and SOVO's.

Let me save you a bunch of effort and give you the same answer that you will arrive at once you have dug all the way through everything.

the Technical Documentation tells you what the vehicle is rated for and that detail came from the design specification of the vehicle. The Perentie is, while similar to, not the same as the civvy 110's and therefore are a different kettle of fish because it was built to a set of design specifications given by the customer, NOT what the manufacturer wanted to build. Its this simple fact that you're overlooking because you want to have an answer thats more to your own liking.

The only way you can legally tow more than a 1200KG Trailer (which must have at least over run brakes fitted) is to dig into your pockets and pay an engineer to respec the vehicle with a blue plate (or whatever is equivelent in your state) with a higher GCM and higher permissible towed load.

Remember if you want more than 2000KG trialer GVM you also have to fit command brakes of some type. and yes, conveniently there is an easy way to do this by tapping the ACC feed in the trailer socket and the brake light feed for a brake controller, theres even a couple of spare pins in the trailer plug you can use. all of this is accessible by removing the protection panel behind the RHR wheel that has all the fittings for the rear harness.



the 6x6 from memory the 6x6 was good for 2T towed on road and 1.5 cross country. I dont have the 6x6 UHB/EMEI's in front of me right now.

[rathgar]

Blknight;
Please dont get me wrong I'm not trying to be difficult just using this forum to investigate the issue and I appeciate the input from the knowlegable peope here, but what is needed to ensure that there is no "shakey "legal ground is hard proof. That is what I seek to find.

I am not looking for an answer that suits me.

I understand fully the requirements for trailer breaking systems.

All the documents you have quoted are army documents (I dont really know what half the aconyms you have quoted are about).

What I am trying to point out is what is needed to be found is a manufactures document.

Ron;
You quoted manufactiures specs. Do you have and can you post that document?

[Dougal]

From a non adr compliant engineers perspective, I'm wondering if the changes to the rear of the chassis are the main reason? Aside from the military not requiring a higher rating from that class.

[Mick_Marsh]

I too would be interested in a copy of the manufacturers specs from the manufacturer, Ron.

My Perentie is registered as 5.6t GVM and 7.1t GCM.
Oh! That leaves 1500kg!
Amazing.

I have a question for the brains trust.
The tare (fuel tanks full) is as near to 4t as you can get for my question. Let's say I'm 100kg, so let's call that 4.1t. If I carry nothing else in the tow vehicle, does that mean I can legally tow 3t? 4.1t + 3t = 7.1t = GCM

[Mick_Marsh]

From a non adr compliant engineers perspective, I'm wondering if the changes to the rear of the chassis are the main reason? Aside from the military not requiring a higher rating from that class.
That is a fair point.
However, when I look at 3.5t towbars on modern utes and think how flimsy they and their mountings look compared to the Perentie, I cannot help but think it may be able to be re-rated by an automotive engineer.

[Dougal]

That is a fair point.
However, when I look at 3.5t towbars on modern utes and think how flimsy they and their mountings look compared to the Perentie, I cannot help but think it may be able to be re-rated by an automotive engineer.

Any chance of a type modification under the Aussie system?

Perhaps a group of Perentie owners could get together, commission an appropriately licensed Engineer to re-rate the Perenties both as-is and with any supporting modifications to meet a 3,500kg rating.

Then any following Perentie could be rubber stamped as complying to that pre-approved mod.

[oowa]

What we need is a precedent, someone to actually do the process, and see what comes from it how much $$$ and persuasion.
I'd love to just have 2500 kg, then I can tow my stuff

[Mick_Marsh]

Any chance of a type modification under the Aussie system?
I think so. I know a couple of people who have had engineers reports on modifications they sell.


Perhaps a group of Perentie owners could get together, commission an appropriately licensed Engineer to re-rate the Perenties both as-is and with any supporting modifications to meet a 3,500kg rating.
That would require some organising.

Tony, that 6x6 Perentie club idea is getting closer.

[Mick_Marsh]

Hey Gav, I may need an intro to your engineer mate.

[Blknight.aus]

Mate the fancy acronymns are the actual docs you need. They are the ONLY documents that count for the perenties.

the Perentie was made under and ADF contract to the specifications given IN the contract. the liability code is the link you need to get those details

Even then thats not going to do you any good for what you need, all that gives you is

1. what the original specification was for the vehicle
2. the testing TO that specification
3. the references to the published documents
4. the relevant compliance to the ADR's of the time of manufacture
5. The liability acceptance for the vehicle as designed and tested.
6. Parts compatibility details.
7. more irrelevant legal mumbo jumbo about who does what and where in regards to initial servicing, warranty and parts guarantee

here's what you will go ahead and find out. (someone might have just gone through this rigmarole already)
you might want to read all of this post carefully and do some inferring of things that I am not coming out and openly saying based on things that I have said.
once you dig all the way into that mess that the vehicle has been tested as designed and that the technical specifications for the vehicle are laid out in

UHB XXXXXXX
EMEI XXXXXXX


Let me quote some of the points from the warranty section from one of the liabiltiys... (and most of the points are suitably replicated in the UHB)

the warranty shall not apply where


the vehicle is not operated in accordance with the user hand book
vehicle not being maintained in accordance with the user hand book or EMEI manuals
misuse or neglect



Welcome to dealing with specific military build equipment mate, its not like the stuff out there in civvy street because in its infinite wisdom the ADF never, EVER does a straight out MOTS purchase, they must always modify stuff to suit themselves, resulting in a custom build which then becomes ADF/ADI specific so there is no way you can do anything with it in stock form outside of the ADF limits.

The perentie is a one off beast, they dont exist in any other theater in the world but this one and the documents that you can get your hands on are (IF you're lucky) the EMEI's and the UHB. They are the documents that everyone is using including the insurance people, including the engineers. There is no EURO, JIS, DIN, SAE or other standards on them apart from the ADF/ADI and ADR specifications provided.

let me give you a more recent example.

The Gwagon.

ITs not a G350 and its not a straight out MOTS Gwagon. The ADI has its very own special set of them and they have their own special set of documentation. you cant look at the data sheet for a G350 or a MOTS gwagon and say, the manufacturers sheet for that vehicle says this therefor that applies to the ADF Gwagon. There are some points that are the same but the document sets are on completely different releases and therefor do not interchange Fine for reference material on the parts where they do match but thats it.

In the same way because the Perentie has its own custom chassis at the rear end with its own custom recovery and towing setup you simply can not look at a county/defender book and then decide that because they both look like the perentie, the county has the same engine and has the gearbox as an option in australia that the data sets are totally interchangable.

hell even the suspension is different in several key areas.

I figure IF you go hard at it it will take you about 6-9 months to dig in far enough to find out the information you think you'll find. When you find it you will find that your answer is going to be one of 2 things

1. its rated to 900-1200KG towed load depending on variant
2. the chassis was tested to 1200KG towed load In accordance with the design requirements.

all of which is what we've been saying since the get go.

Theres a very specific set of reasons why there are exactly 3 varients of the perenties that I am interested in and why so far, Ive had exactly no interest in any of the vehicles coming up for auction.

[Blknight.aus]

I too would be interested in a copy of the manufacturers specs from the manufacturer, Ron.

My Perentie is registered as 5.6t GVM and 7.1t GCM.
Oh! That leaves 1500kg!
Amazing.

I have a question for the brains trust.
The tare (fuel tanks full) is as near to 4t as you can get for my question. Let's say I'm 100kg, so let's call that 4.1t. If I carry nothing else in the tow vehicle, does that mean I can legally tow 3t? 4.1t + 3t = 7.1t = GCM


Pretty sure off the top of my head that they are the correct numbers for a 6x6 GS or similar

and no, it doesnt partly because the pintle from memroy is only rated to 4000LB and because there is a specification that sets your maximum towed load.

IF you had a max towed spec of 3T and you had a GCM of 7.1T so long as you kept your vehicles GVM under 4.1 then yes you could tow 3T with it but if you then put another half ton on the tray you would have to take it out of the trailer letting you tow only 2.5T.

If you were in that configration the limiting factor would be the brakes on the vehicle and trailer. In reality its now very very rare to see a vehicle whose GCM is lower than its rated max GVM and max Towed GVM combined.

[rathgar]

Maybe no engineering is required as the perenties are pre ADR62 that relates to towing.
Do any other ADR's relate to towing?

[rathgar]

Mick
Where did that GCM come from? Is it on a plate on the 6x6?

[101 Ron]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/coil-sprung-military-land-rovers/184234-perentie-army-personal-introduction-information.html

[101 Ron]

I point out the towing capacity on a 101 Landrover legal for Australian roads Is 2000kg as the army plate on the vehicle states that and is what the vehicle was tested for.
It is able to tow more in the real world as it has better drive train to do so than a Defender,Perentie, or Range Rover etc........beening not tested or plated for it as the vehicle was rated for on and off road the same and was only intended by the military to pull and gun or power driven trailer etc of 1500kg
It is almost the same story as the perentie 4x4.......both used by the Australian army and similar drive trains.....infact the perentie uses the 101s gearbox and transfercase and why they were able to produce the 6x6 as the 6x6 rear axle drive was really the power driven trailer drive.
Both the 101 and perentie are military only designs.
I note the Australian army are able to change the payload of the vehicle as they seem fit after there own testing and needs.
The Australian 101s have a 1500kg payload on the tray whisle all others...ie imported from UK ect are 1000 kg.
It follows though in civie street the payload of the Australian 101s being different to the UK ones even though the vehicles are exactly the same.......the civie rating is the same as the military one as that is what the vehicle was tested to and only a engineers cert will change things legally as you are driving a Perentie and not a 110
Engineers cert is the only way to cover yourself for civie use if you want to tow more than what the army tested the vehicle to do.
I note with my own dealings with the RTA/RMS in NSW when I was chasing LPG installation and govt rebates I had the vehicle over the pits.
I missed out on a rebate because they found the army plate in the cabin with a GVM of over 3500kg when previously they were all set to pass it best on civie figures and information.
I was welcome to have the vehicles GVM changed lower with a engineers cert, very simple, like changing to slightly lighter duty tyres than standard and would have not cost that much, but I wanted the higher GVM.
Fit your vehicle with a electric brake controller and specs for a civie 110 landy to help the process and the engineer should be happy to do it and it shouldn't cost too much as the engineer is not sticking his neck out much to do it.

[rathgar]

Thanks Ron

Its late, I have read through those specs but may have missed something.
With regards the 6x6 it does give a GVM and GCM but it doesn't state a maximum permissible towed load.

That’s the sort of document I would consider to be a manufactures statement. I assume that exists because the 6x6 was available to the public and therefore unlikely for the 4x4 which wasn't (to the same spec). Till now!

[101 Ron]

One other point I will make is the Perenties use in replacing the 101 landrover for the rapier missle system which in Australian use is Three vehicles and Three trailers
1/ Launcher trailer
2/Radar trailer
3/ Resupply/reload trailer

The 4x4 perentie was not used to replace the 101, but the 6x6 was used simply because of the 6x6s slightly larger towing capacity over the 4x4 as the towing loads can be 1500kg .
I believe the 101s increase in payload for Australia after Army testing was for the Rapier missle system..........they used it in the UK, but not in the way Australia did and didn't need the payload or towing increase.
None of the above vehicles were tested or designed for anything more than non braked trailers/guns or over ride brakes and therefore not tested for more unlike any civie developed versions of the vehicles.

[101 Ron]

Thanks Ron

Its late, I have read through those specs but may have missed something.
With regards the 6x6 it does give a GVM and GCM but it doesn't state a maximum permissible towed load.

That’s the sort of document I would consider to be a manufactures statement. I assume that exists because the 6x6 was available to the public and therefore unlikely for the 4x4 which wasn't (to the same spec). Till now!

If you know the GVM and the GCM sub tract one from the other and you get very close..........draw bar weights come into play.

GCM......7050kg
GVM.....5500kg

you end up with 1550kg.........less draw bar weight.........so something like 1500kg with over ride brakes in the real world on Aussie roads both military and civie as designed.

[101 Ron]

I will be having this problem with my 101 landrover in a few years.
Its military towing/civie towing is 2000kg and is the maximum you can tow in civie street with over ride brakes.
I have a WW2 Wiles cooker which is well over 3000kg.
As last used in the services they were air braked.
I in tend to tow with Three different vehicles
1/
Alvis stalwart.....towing cap 10 tons , air braked.......no problem except it is (a very poor towing vehicle from a running cost point of view.)
2/
Studebaker 6x6.........military rated to tow up to 5000kg with vacuum brakes
( not legal above 2000kg in civie street and no air brakes.
3/
101 landrover 2000kg with override/vacuum brakes
( no air brakes and not enough towing capacity)

My answer is I should be able tow the Wiles cooker with all Three vehicles with simple engineering certs
The trailer brakes are air over hydraulic.
In recent years electric/battery/hydraulic systems have been advailible for trailers and are straight forward common to engineers cert trailers up to 4000kgs for these systems.
I should be able to leave the air brakes in place too.

The Studebaker will need a civie electric brake controller fitted and no engineering because of its mass is well over 4000kg unladen and rated army/ manufactures tow rating.

The 101 will need engineers cert for electric trailer brakes and upping the rated towing.
I should be able to get this cheaply as the hard work is already done for the engineer.
Correctly rated pintle hook is already fitted to vehicle and a extra renforcing plate at back of chassis of pintle hook bolts fitted.
The vehicle has drive train improved or equal to similer civie vehicles by the same manufacturer with 4000kg tow rating.
The vehicle has improved brakes( discs fitted to front and silicone brake fluid.)
Tyre specs fitted are well with in possible loads.
Why would a engineer and RTA/RMS not pass it ..........I found if you don't fight the system , but cover the pen pushers bum with safety they are happy to help you.
This towing thing with a military only design I have been looking into carefully.
Yes it will cost some money...........

[JDNSW]

Thanks Ron

Its late, I have read through those specs but may have missed something.
With regards the 6x6 it does give a GVM and GCM but it doesn't state a maximum permissible towed load.

That’s the sort of document I would consider to be a manufactures statement. I assume that exists because the 6x6 was available to the public and therefore unlikely for the 4x4 which wasn't (to the same spec). Till now!

I should point out that the difference between the perentie 6x6 and civilian 6x6 is much greater than the difference between the perentie 110 and civilian 110. For a start, the cabs are completely different and the track is significantly different.

John

[rathgar]

Blacknight
"..you might want to read all of this post carefully and do some inferring of things that I am not coming out and "openly saying based on things that I have said."

I'd prefer not to infer anything but state all the facts . I'm not sure what you are getting at there.

To look at this from another angle. The process and not the outcome.
Can I ask, given your knowledge ( I mean that and in no way am I trying to be rude) of the military documents and processes;
What testing procedures did the military use?
Are the tests and calculation documents available?

ADR 62 sets out various loads (longitudinal, torsion, etc) that a towing system must meet.
Perhaps the military testing may prove compliance with ADR62 (for which the vehicles don’t need to comply). Just that the military used a greater margin of safety when establishing there towing loads.
If so I think this would make any engineering approval process far easier.

[isuzutoo-eh]

There's a good chance that Dave is writing the way he is because the information he has access to is classified and hence can't be quoted or posted directly...

[Blknight.aus]

Maybe no engineering is required as the perenties are pre ADR62 that relates to towing.
Do any other ADR's relate to towing?

sadly no, while the ADR's arent retro active for as is vehicles, once you begin to modify a vehicle you are required to comply with the current relevant ADR's for the mods you make.

while 20 years ago you would have been on the money with the old regulation of 1.5X tare for your max towed load thats out the window on 2 counts.

1. there is a documented towed load
2. there are current ADR's that you must comply with if you modify the vehicle for a larger towed mass.

me personally.

I wouldnt mind betting that with the right engineer and the right PAM that you could easily fit something like a teshonka and then have the vehicle recertified/blue plated for 3500KG towed load.

Heres a hint.

Remember when the Army used to A frame a crock landrover with another landrover?

What was the GVM of a 110 perentie again?

bet you could do the same with a 6x6 but I wouldnt recomend that as you'd force yourself into requiring a medium rigid license to drive it after it was replated.

[Mick_Marsh]

You already have a LR to drive one of these vehicles. Probably most that do already have a HR.
Any trailer over 2t and up to 4.5t ATM, as far as I am aware, must have electric brakes with a break away system. The towing vehicle must have a brake controller installed (although I have seen trailers with the brake controller installed on the trailer).

This may be of interest:
http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/F3998CFD-B6EA-4124-B1A0-BBD4CF2C1DFF/0/VSI24.pdf

The way I see it, all that has to be done is the rear cross member and chassis has to be assessed to conform to these standards (or whatever standards are current) and an electric brake controller installed. Is there anything I am overlooking?

Who mentioned A frame towing?
http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/5CEB231C-BAC0-4834-9604-6A2C0CE36DBD/0/vsi6requirementsaframetowing.pdf

[Blknight.aus]

You already have a LR to drive one of these vehicles. Probably most that do already have a HR.
Any trailer over 2t and up to 4.5t ATM, as far as I am aware, must have electric brakes with a break away system. The towing vehicle must have a brake controller installed (although I have seen trailers with the brake controller installed on the trailer).

This may be of interest:
http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/F3998CFD-B6EA-4124-B1A0-BBD4CF2C1DFF/0/VSI24.pdf

The way I see it, all that has to be done is the rear cross member and chassis has to be assessed to conform to these standards (or whatever standards are current) and an electric brake controller installed. Is there anything I am overlooking?

Who mentioned A frame towing?
http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/5CEB231C-BAC0-4834-9604-6A2C0CE36DBD/0/vsi6requirementsaframetowing.pdf


almost correct.

over 2T you must have some kind of command brake system, it can be vac, pnuematic, hydraulic or electric, electric is easiest AND whichever system you fit must be able to automatically brake and hold the trailer in the event of a break away for a period of 15 minutes (from memory) until a secondary braking mechanism or method of securing the trailer can be effected.


and yes, if you were lucky the minimum requirement is an inspection of the cross member, hook up mounts and safety chain mounts for suitability to handle the load you want to put on it legally, an Engineer would do this and then if all was good put his moniker on a bit of expensive paper and attach an equally expensive bit of ally plate along side the ADR compliance plate up on the fire wall.

What doesnt exist is a bit of paper that says yes you can already tow 3.5T (which is most likely where most engineers would draw the line in the sand when you go to get one replated for a higher towed load)

There are (were) some very heavy restrictions on A framing one landrover with another but for a while It was an ADF approved method of short range moving a broken down landrover

From memory

must have operable brakes on the crock (not the park brake)
must have operable steering
must have a driver to control the steering and brakes
Towing must not be likely to cause futher damage
Neutral must be selectable on the Tcase
CDL must be disengaged
maximum distance was <50km
maximum speed was less than 40KPH
Towed vehicle was to weigh less than the towing vehicle
some form of communication between the two vehicles was required (hand signals were acceptable

[Jeff]

I may or may have not seen Army 110s being used to tow L5 Pack Howitzers (1.6 ton) and L119 Light Guns (1.9 ton) and assumed it was legit for short distances, but maybe I was wrong and said driver or drivers could have been in very deep poo.

Jeff

:rocket:

[isuzurover]

This should all be pretty simple. There must be an engineer out there willing to certify the perentie 4x4 - which has a chassis as strong or stronger than the one-ten and is otherwise identical where it counts - can tow the same load as a civvy one-ten.

[Homestar]

This should all be pretty simple. There must be an engineer out there willing to certify the perentie 4x4 - which has a chassis as strong or stronger than the one-ten and is otherwise identical where it counts - can tow the same load as a civvy one-ten.

I sure there is, it just doesn't look like anybody has gone down that path yet. Land Rover owners are tight (I am) if they can get a workable solution without spending money, they will. Doesn't look like there is an 'out' on this one without going down the Engineering path.

[Mick_Marsh]

I sure there is, it just doesn't look like anybody has gone down that path yet. Land Rover owners are tight (I am) if they can get a workable solution without spending money, they will. Doesn't look like there is an 'out' on this one without going down the Engineering path.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/coil-sprung-military-land-rovers/189505-towing-capacity-2.html#post2163974

[isuzurover]

I sure there is, it just doesn't look like anybody has gone down that path yet. Land Rover owners are tight (I am) if they can get a workable solution without spending money, they will. Doesn't look like there is an 'out' on this one without going down the Engineering path.

In reality I think people are worrying over nothing. If you have an accident while towing, the odds of the insurance co and or the cops pulling the specific perentie docs as opposed to the one-ten or defender docs is next to zero...

[Homestar]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/coil-sprung-military-land-rovers/189505-towing-capacity-2.html#post2163974

Missed that - I'll dig up his name and number - it's been a while since I chatted to him.

[MR LR]

If I'm correct in understanding that the Perentie's have "Land Rover 110" on their compliance plate, as do the civvy 110's, then what is the worry about? If they're complied the same there should be no issue, they have a stronger chassis, so it's not like hanging 3.5T off the back is stupid...

The GCM-GVM is your towing capacity anyway (legally)... should all be on the rego papers I'd have thought.

[Blknight.aus]

Blacknight
"..you might want to read all of this post carefully and do some inferring of things that I am not coming out and "openly saying based on things that I have said."

I'd prefer not to infer anything but state all the facts . I'm not sure what you are getting at there.

To look at this from another angle. The process and not the outcome.
Can I ask, given your knowledge ( I mean that and in no way am I trying to be rude) of the military documents and processes;
What testing procedures did the military use?
Are the tests and calculation documents available?

ADR 62 sets out various loads (longitudinal, torsion, etc) that a towing system must meet.
Perhaps the military testing may prove compliance with ADR62 (for which the vehicles don’t need to comply). Just that the military used a greater margin of safety when establishing there towing loads.
If so I think this would make any engineering approval process far easier.


The military didnt do the testing JRA did.

JRA tested it to the standard required and not beyond. This is why you're pooched, to uprate it its your responsibility to prove it meets ADR62 (and some others that come in on the fringes)

its not like the unimog, the R series or the fleet liner. They are almost completely off the shelf vehicles that have been derated to get a nice long life out of the equipment. Getting one of these uprated is easy, you take the model number off of he manufacturers data plate, grab the civvy nomenclature for the same vehicle and get it registered at the higher civvy limit.

theres no documentation like that for the perentie.

now you might be able to pull it off for the 6x6 as that was released as a civilian available item and the civvy one could have a higher towed load rating BUT, from what I remember the civvy one had a different tow hitch setup (and it also only came in the narrow front end so the rear axle track was about a wheel width wider than the front)

[Mick_Marsh]

The GCM-GVM is your towing capacity anyway (legally)... should all be on the rego papers I'd have thought.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/coil-sprung-military-land-rovers/189505-towing-capacity-3.html#post2163952

[Homestar]

If I'm correct in understanding that the Perentie's have "Land Rover 110" on their compliance plate, as do the civvy 110's, then what is the worry about? If they're complied the same there should be no issue, they have a stronger chassis, so it's not like hanging 3.5T off the back is stupid...

The GCM-GVM is your towing capacity anyway (legally)... should all be on the rego papers I'd have thought.

That's the problem. They're not. The Perentie complies with a completely different set of rules than the civy 110.

[Mick_Marsh]

An extract from ADR 62/02



12.3.2. Up to 3.5 tonnes ‘ATM’
‘Couplings’, other than those at clause 12.3.1, specifically designed for use between towing vehicles and trailers up to 3.5 tonnes ‘ATM’ when installed in the design configuration must withstand the relevant static or dynamic forces nominated in clause 12.3.2.1 or clause 12.3.2.2 when these forces are applied separately at the intended ‘Coupling’ centreline, without incurring any residual deformation that would interfere or degrade the function of the assembly or any breaks, cracks or separation of components. The static forces must be maintained for not less than 10 seconds.
12.3.2.1. Up to 3.5 tonnes ‘ATM’ – Static Testing
12.3.2.1.1. Longitudinal tension and compression of minimum (N) 1.5 x 9.81 x ‘ATM’ (kg) for the ‘ATM’ at which the ‘Coupling’ is rated; and
12.3.2.1.2. Transverse thrust of minimum (N) 0.5 x 9.81 x ‘ATM’ (kg) for the ‘ATM’ at which the ‘Coupling’ is rated; and
12.3.2.1.3. Vertical tension and compression of minimum (N) 0.5 x 9.81 x ‘ATM’ (kg) for the ‘ATM’ at which the ‘Coupling’ is rated.
12.3.2.2. Up to 3.5 tonnes ‘ATM’ – Dynamic Testing
12.3.2.2.1. Horizontal alternating force of minimum +/- 12 kN acting in a line parallel to the ground and in the longitudinal median plane of the towing vehicle for at least 2 million cycles. The frequency is not to exceed 35 Hz, and must be chosen so as not to coincide with any natural frequency of the system.You get an automotive engineer to sign off that it conforms to that, you're laughing. Nowhere on a Perentie ADR compliance plate does it say it conforms to that ADR.

For the Perentie, there was no ADR for towing capacity in the second edition ADR's and it was a manufacturer specified thing. For the 6x6 Perentie, the manufacturers specifications were 5.6t GVM and 7.1t GCM. To get it rated for a higher GCM, it has to be tested against ADR 62/02 and probably some others. The military spec 6x6 Perentie is a different beast compared to the civilian 6x6. These diferences must be taken into account when they are comparred. For example, I believe the 4x4 the chassis rails in the Australian military 110 are much smaller than the civilian 110 in order to fit the spare wheel. That would affect the towing capacity. There may be other pertinant differences.

[THE BOOGER]

If I'm correct in understanding that the Perentie's have "Land Rover 110" on their compliance plate, as do the civvy 110's, then what is the worry about? If they're complied the same there should be no issue, they have a stronger chassis, so it's not like hanging 3.5T off the back is stupid...

The GCM-GVM is your towing capacity anyway (legally)... should all be on the rego papers I'd have thought.

As said they are not compliance as a land rover 110 but as a military 4x4 so as far as rms are concerned they are totally different

[Dougal]

An extract from ADR 62/02


You get an automotive engineer to sign off that it conforms to that, you're laughing. Nowhere on a Perentie ADR compliance plate does it say it conforms to that ADR.

For the Perentie, there was no ADR for towing capacity in the second edition ADR's and it was a manufacturer specified thing. For the 6x6 Perentie, the manufacturers specifications were 5.6t GVM and 7.1t GCM. To get it rated for a higher GCM, it has to be tested against ADR 62/02 and probably some others. The military spec 6x6 Perentie is a different beast compared to the civilian 6x6. These diferences must be taken into account when they are comparred. For example, I believe the 4x4 the chassis rails in the Australian military 110 are much smaller than the civilian 110 in order to fit the spare wheel. That would affect the towing capacity. There may be other pertinant differences.

I've designed truck towbars and while the method was different, it was stress based analytical rather than deformation based physical testing, the end result for loads and safety factors appears about the same.

Which suggests there may be a stress based adr standard which could be cheaper for an engineer to approve than the physical test.

[rathgar]

I'm pretty sure the ADR talks about approved calculations or something to that effect. Which is why I asked about the testing documentation. But that didn't go anywhere.

[101RRS]

I enquired about getting a tow bar build about 2 years ago. There are approved engineers who can do this - was going to cost $700 for the engineer to design the bar, inspect the vehicle and inspect the bar after it was built - so the cost of the bar was extra.

No testing required as that was the reason in using the engineer. Bar the conforms with current ADRs.

Of course the tow capacity is primarily determined by the vehicle so if not available this figure would also need to be engineered.

To me the answer on the Perenties is clear - right or wrong - 1200kg in all terrain and if you want higher then get the vehicle and bar engineered and wear the expense.

Same as a 101 - 2 ton in all terrains (is capable of much more) and if I want more then I would alos have to go through the same engineering process.

Garry

[Mick_Marsh]

I'm pretty sure the ADR talks about approved calculations or something to that effect. Which is why I asked about the testing documentation. But that didn't go anywhere.
I would say that documentation is not available to us and, if it were, would only reflect the load towing capacity of 1500kg.
That's why it would be worth getting an automotive engineer to have a look at it.

We know the tandem Haulmark trailers towed by the 6x6 Perenties were 1250kg ATM. Interestingly, the ADF had a number of trailers made by ARB that had an ATM of 2000kg.
I can only assume they were intended to be towed by the 6x6 Perenties.

[Dougal]

I enquired about getting a tow bar build about 2 years ago. There are approved engineers who can do this - was going to cost $700 for the engineer to design the bar, inspect the vehicle and inspect the bar after it was built - so the cost of the bar was extra.

That's about right. Same cost whether you're building a commercial truck tow-bar or certifying a one-off towbar for a taxi.

Here in NZ private use light vehicles don't need tow-bars certified. But taxi vans etc in commercial use do. Same process and design/cert cost for a toyota previa shuttle-van tow-bar as a scania truck towbar.

[303gunner]

We know the tandem Haulmark trailers towed by the 6x6 Perenties were 1250kg ATM. Interestingly, the ADF had a number of trailers made by ARB that had an ATM of 2000kg.
I can only assume they were intended to be towed by the 6x6 Perenties.
The Haulmark Tandems are a Tare of 750Kg and payload of 1250Kg, Agg Trailer Mass of 2000Kg.


My operators instrucions for the 6x6 states max towed load of 2000Kg. AFAIK, the 1500Kg limit was for the civvy 6x6.

[rathgar]

Does anyone have link to the EMEI VEH G 100 document or one that could be posted here.

Thanks

[303gunner]

I previously uploaded it in post no 7 in this thread: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/195763-how-rego-brisbane-perentie-nsw.html


Apparently AULRO won't let you upload the same attachment to the site twice.

[neophyteguy]

Firstly,
Thanks to you all who have contributed to this discussion! Unfortunately I had planned to pull a boat with my Perentie and am going to need to go through some sort of process to try and get the towing capacity increased. If anyone is planning to go through this process (I'm in NSW) and would like to look at the possibility of splitting engineering costs I'd be keen.....

Cheers,
Neo

[rathgar]

I would be.

But the first thing would be to investigate if it is possible to get a "type" approval. I'm not sure this is possible in NSW with the Vehicle Modification Compliance Scheme or how it would work nationally.

If engineering is required ( I'm still investigating this with the RMS and Land Rover) my intention was to have it done with other engineering that will be required for my vehicle so I don't expect the engineering costs to be to bad when spread across a few mods.

[Mick_Marsh]

I would be.

But the first thing would be to investigate if it is possible to get a "type" approval. I'm not sure this is possible in NSW with the Vehicle Modification Compliance Scheme or how it would work nationally.

If engineering is required ( I'm still investigating this with the RMS and Land Rover) my intention was to have it done with other engineering that will be required for my vehicle so I don't expect the engineering costs to be to bad when spread across a few mods.
I'd be talking to an automotive engineer first, which I will be.
I think cookey got "type" approval for his disc brake conversion. Maybe have a chat with him to find out the process.

[THE BOOGER]

Yes he did get type approval send him a PM or if I see him I will ask going to the shed this week end he may be there:)

[rathgar]

I'd be talking to an automotive engineer first, which I will be.
I think cookey got "type" approval for his disc brake conversion. Maybe have a chat with him to find out the process.

Thanks for that a disk brake conversion is something else I would be considering. Got to help with towing among other things.

[AIF]

Firstly,
Thanks to you all who have contributed to this discussion! Unfortunately I had planned to pull a boat with my Perentie and am going to need to go through some sort of process to try and get the towing capacity increased. If anyone is planning to go through this process (I'm in NSW) and would like to look at the possibility of splitting engineering costs I'd be keen.....

Cheers,
Neo
So does that mean you can't just add electric brakes if you have a trailer rated to 3000kg braked???

[THE BOOGER]

So does that mean you can't just add electric brakes if you have a trailer rated to 3000kg braked???

Strictly by the book no you cant:(:(
but lots of people have and most of the new 110 owners don't know about the lower tow weight and probably don't care until something goes wrong then we will have head lines about the Army selling unsafe vehicles (again):(

[neophyteguy]

So does that mean you can't just add electric brakes if you have a trailer rated to 3000kg braked???

That's not what I'm reading mate. I would like to get some resolve as it sounds like many people would!

Cheers,
JRW

[wayne]

I was just wondering if the 6x6 can tow a 4.5 ton trailer.
Am I better off buying a 1700L unimog. This is for towing long distances approximately 6000 km a fortnight.

[Mick_Marsh]

I was just wondering if the 6x6 can tow a 4.5 ton trailer.
Am I better off buying a 1700L unimog. This is for towing long distances approximately 6000 km a fortnight.
Not legally.

Oh, have a read here about the Mog.
http://www.unimogexpeditions.com.au/
Somewhere towards the bottom it gives towing ratings.

[wayne]

Thanks Mick for redirecting me to this post. I did extensive searches on this topic but got no real hits.

[Mick_Marsh]

One day, in the near future (I hope), I'll be taking my Perentie to an acredited engineer to have the GCM re rated. Hopefully it will be over 3.5t but I'll be going for the maximum I can get.

[Kobsperentie]

One day, in the near future (I hope), I'll be taking my Perentie to an acredited engineer to have the GCM re rated. Hopefully it will be over 3.5t but I'll be going for the maximum I can get.

Hi mick_marsh,

could you pm me or post how you went with the getting re rated & to what you were able to get

[grey_ghost]

Hi mick_marsh,

could you pm me or post how you went with the getting re rated & to what you were able to get

Hi Mate,

Mick_Marsh is rarely on this forum anymore (if ever). So unfortunately I don't think that you will get an answer. I do see him on a few FaceBook Perentie pages though.

Cheers,
GG.

[Redback]

I read the legal tow capacity the other day, very surprising, but, maybe the low rating is because of the pintle hook and or how it's mounted, either way it's disappointing.

[Homestar]

The rating used is an 'all terrain' rating the Military use, so it's based on off road towing which is why it is so low. The Pintle is good for 4500Kg I think and the chassis easily to 3000kg. It would require an Engineer to sort this legally and some have done this. Given the Defender of the same era can tow crap loads more, I wouldn't think it would be a difficult sell to an Engineer if you can find a sympathetic ear.