Recovery points and liability.

[streaky]

I was told that Land Rover don't fit recovery points onto any of their cars because of liability issues.
We all know that our cars are fitted with lashing points but are the front lashing points on the D3 & D4 suitable as recovery points?
Surely a decent snatch recovery on a D3 or D4 would damage the monocoque front cross member?
Thoughts and advice please.
The same applies to rear I suppose?

[WhiteD3]

On the D3/4 the rear point is a proper recovery point, being connected to the chassis. The front ring is for winching onto a tilt tray and tie down only. Having said that I've been snatched by the front ring a couple of times given that there's no alternative.

I doubt its a liability issue. More likely cost and design.

[camel_landy]

I was told that Land Rover don't fit recovery points onto any of their cars because of liability issues.
Some people do talk a lot of nonsense! The front & rear recovery points are rated to 2x vehicle weight.

Have a flick through the owners manual as it may well be mentioned there.

M

[Fred Nerk]

We have had a few talks and presentations at our 4WD club on recovery issues.

Generally people agree that there is no such thing as a "rated recovery point". There are standards for shackles etc, but not for recovery points. ARB make a recovery point fitting which apparently has been rated, but they agree that as they have no control over the chassis to which it is fixed there can be no rating of the fitting and vehicle combination. An ARB speaker suggested that this is mainly because many recovery points are "directional". Their strength is greatly reduced when the load is at an angle.

And so you will not find a reference to rated recovery points in any (correctly written or translated) vehicle manual. That said, there are recovery points designed for recovering vehicles but there is no standard and we use them at our own discretion.

D4s have a front and rear recovery point. Just be careful and learn how to use them safely.

[Grumbles]

ARB no longer offer front recovery points on their bull bars and I thought the reason for this exclusion was liability.

This leaves the factory tie down point only but it usually gets removed because it was in the way or is hidden and inaccessible because of the bar.

[discotwinturbo]

Front and rear points are rated to the GCM which I think is about 6.6 tonne.

Brett....

[Geedublya]

ARB no longer offer front recovery points on their bull bars and I thought the reason for this exclusion was liability.

This leaves the factory tie down point only but it usually gets removed because it was in the way or is hidden and inaccessible because of the bar.

What??

The front recovery point remains when a bar is fitted. It is the loop in the center and is easily accessed.

[Mattt]

Land Rover Discovery 3/ LR3 -Strength-3of6 - YouTube

I hope this helps....

[camel_landy]

I hope this helps....
Ah ha!

I was looking for that vid... :D

M

[WhiteD3]

I hope this helps....

Nice vid but at no stage do they show the connections to the chassis. I suspect they are not using the recovery points as this is a chassis strength demo.

[Dougal]

Nice vid but at no stage do they show the connections to the chassis. I suspect they are not using the recovery points as this is a chassis strength demo.

They skim past them, but pause and all can be revealed. They are bolted into several chassis hard-points front and rear.

[SBD4]

the fittings are bolted to the chassis and do not use the recovery points.

[~Rich~]

What happens when someone who does not know what he is doing attaches the snatch strap in a recovery:

The Cruiser quite bogged -
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/426.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/VSK5/media/IMG_8248_zps980b5207.jpg.html)

The bottom of the bullbar ripped off -
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/427.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/VSK5/media/IMG_8252_zpsc486ad14.jpg.html)

Yes there where proper recovery points, but alas the Nissan driver attached the snatch strap to the bull bar instead, the Cruiser driver could not get out his door. So he stayed in the car, he got out the passenger side after the accident.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/428.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/VSK5/media/IMG_8249_zpseb0598b0.jpg.html)

The shackle created the hole! perhaps the saving grace was the steel bull bar section hit across the rear door stopping the shackle going any further into the Patrol. Lesson learnt by the driver, luckily no one was injured or killed.

That's how easily this can happen, don't assume anything. The Cruiser driver should of checked the attachment points prior to the first attempt.

[roverrescue]

The Cruiser driver should of checked the attachment points prior to the first attempt.

I disagree - the cruiser driver and patrol driver should have used the correct recovery technique in the first place. THAT was never a good option for dynamic recovery. (At least someone was doing a council worker impersonation and leaning on a shovel. perhaps insufficient training though ;) )

Dynamic recoveries create dynamic and "uncontrollable" loads. Put the snatch strap away or use it to drag firewood. With a controlled static recovery with some digging and road building I would have pulled that cruiser out using a single M10 rated eye bolt connected to the very same bar that ejected into the patrol. The failure in the above scenario WAS NOT THE RECOVERY POINT the failure was the technique used.

Thatll do

Steve

[~Rich~]

Next attempt, the shovels did come out before any recovery attempt was made. More so he was recovered backwards, Quite easily but not without some force as the diffs where on the surface.

[ozscott]

RR what would you have used instead of s snatch strap? Black snakes still have some stretch...a rated chain?

Cheers

[Dougal]

Dynamic recoveries create dynamic and "uncontrollable" loads. Put the snatch strap away or use it to drag firewood.

I disagree, there is nothing uncontrollable about dynamic recovery. They are as safe or unsafe as they people performing them.

[ozscott]

That LR video is cool but look at the mounts used...and its static. Iove the LR vids for their models but lets not get too caught up in the hype. Recovery is so much different especially using stock mounts. Cheers

[BSM]

The Cruiser driver should of checked the attachment points prior to the first attempt.

I disagree - the cruiser driver and patrol driver should have used the correct recovery technique in the first place. THAT was never a good option for dynamic recovery. (At least someone was doing a council worker impersonation and leaning on a shovel. perhaps insufficient training though ;) )

Dynamic recoveries create dynamic and "uncontrollable" loads. Put the snatch strap away or use it to drag firewood. With a controlled static recovery with some digging and road building I would have pulled that cruiser out using a single M10 rated eye bolt connected to the very same bar that ejected into the patrol. The failure in the above scenario WAS NOT THE RECOVERY POINT the failure was the technique used.

Thatll do

Steve

I don't disagree that the recovery attempt was poorly done. But why is a snatch strap not acceptable?

Perhaps they had no car mounted winch on any of the vehicles. and perhaps no hand winch either.

An exhaust jack probably would have been good in that situation, but those things are really bulky to cart around.

Maybe all that had between them was a snatch strap and shovels.

What approach would you have used Steve?

[THE BOOGER]

I don't disagree that the recovery attempt was poorly done. But why is a snatch strap not acceptable?

Perhaps they had no car mounted winch on any of the vehicles. and perhaps no hand winch either.

An exhaust jack probably would have been good in that situation, but those things are really bulky to cart around.

Maybe all that had between them was a snatch strap and shovels.

What approach would you have used Steve?

A shovel and tow rope make a much safer and controlled recovery but mean a bit more work. Tow rope takes up the same space as a snatch strap and can be make into a winch if need be a snatch strap cant because of the stretch in it. Having said that I carry a snatch strap, tow rope and winch extension they don't take up to much space:)

[Dougal]

A shovel and tow rope make a much safer and controlled recovery but mean a bit more work. Tow rope takes up the same space as a snatch strap and can be make into a winch if need be a snatch strap cant because of the stretch in it. Having said that I carry a snatch strap, tow rope and winch extension they don't take up to much space:)

Rigid tow ropes are only good for burning clutches and digging holes. A snatch strap used slowly is better in every way for recovery.
The forces on each vehicle (and each recovery point) is lower and there is no sudden sharp take-up.

A recovery is as safe as the people performing it.

[ozscott]

I agree with you Dougal. I have recovered many vehicles with a traditional flat snatch strap and a black snake - see 4WD | GLB VIC BLACK SNAKE (http://www.glbvic.com.au/4wd). I used the Black Snake to recover a 60 series towing a 22foot dual axle road van at a cutting at North Stradbroke Island - it was wholly in the sand. My Disco 2 was on the cording leading to the dirt road. The snake is excellent for this stuff - the one I used is not very long.

Sometimes with incoming tide there is not much time to dig a vehicle out and provided there are very strong couplings a flat snatch strap is a very sound way of removing the bogged vehicle from danger. If I had a 6x4 15 tonn army truck, then sure, just use a chain or rope and idle away, but a 2.5 tonn Disco pulling out a 2.5 tonn Cruiser bogged to the sills just isnt going to happen with anything but an inertia rope/strap unless the Disco is on hard bitumen and even then its asking a lot.

Cheers

[101RRS]

There is no reason that you cannot use a snatch strap in a tow recovery, the issue is that many people seem to think that it can only be used in a charging bull type of way.

Dig wheels, clear the underside - no matter if a snatch or tow connect to a rated recovery point - try a tow recovery - if that does not work - maybe redig and try again - if that does not work then snatch with its associated safety protocols.

Everyone is in a rush these days - gotta get out in 2 secs.

Garry

[Dougal]

There is no reason that you cannot use a snatch strap in a tow recovery, the issue is that many people seem to think that it can only be used in a charging bull type of way.

Bingo.

[Piddler]

Bingo.

I agree and in this situation looking at the image it was the old bull in the china shop.

Looks pretty clear behind and obviously went in frontwards wouldn't you pull him out backwards so he ran down his wheel ruts he had levelled? Seems like common sense to me and poor connection with the strap where the issues here.

Cheers

[AnD3rew]

Another fan of the snatch strap and snatch recovery, I have performed many of these over the years with no dramas including a Cruiser towing a large camper trailer up Big Red and a Taureg bogged to the chassis on Stradbroke.

Usually my recovery options in sand or mud start with shovel and maxtrax, then snatch strap, then winch. Cantbthinkmof a time I have ever tried a straight tow except just to move a mechanically incapacitated vehicle on clear ground.

As others have said you need some common sense, choose the most sensible angle and that might be reverse, do some digging if necessary to clear the escape path and always use proper recovery points and rated shackles to make the connections use a dampener and get bystanders out of the way because accidents can happen.

[benji]

Let's not forget winching can be just as hard on recovery points.

A good heavy snatch will have about 7-8 tonnes of load (4x4 action measured it with a paj towing out an f series in the sand).
A double line pull on a 9000 can yield 8tonne.
I've had the back windows on my classic creaking when being anchor vehicle for a pathfinder and camper. I've never had that happen on a snatch though.

[MY14D4]

...

[MY14D4]

Another snatch strap fan here as a the first point of call, as long as it's used in a controlled manor! Have used it successfully on plenty of other 4wd's.

I will be however be triple thinking it before doing it off the front tie down hook of the Discovery. Can we get a definitive answer on this to give us all a peace of mind, if it turns out it's not 'ideal' for recovery what is the alternative? Recovery hooks bolted / welded else where?

[scarry]

That LR video is cool but look at the mounts used...and its static. Iove the LR vids for their models but lets not get too caught up in the hype. Recovery is so much different especially using stock mounts. Cheers

Exactly,not really a real life recovery situation.

The Vid actually means not much at all.

.

[roverrescue]

I guess I should expand on my comments.

- first I was not there and so I am all full of speculation.
-second apologies if this comes across as opinionated - honestly the below is my musings on recovery. Take it as such and totally ignore me if you want. Chances are though if you get yourself stuck down the beach at Cape Flattery or the Cotterill or on the track into Lookout Point or your swimming through big or little swamp east of Kalpower and I happen along... if you want my help Im gonna do it my way!!! I guess in essence I totally agree with Dougal. A recovery is a function of the people doing it and their experience and abilities. Not the specific technique they use.

Many years ago after having a rated shackle let go during a slow snatch recovery in mud I have since not used a snatch. I have of course seen plenty of other failed snatch recoveries but thankfully no serious trauma. I have also seen plenty of failed winch recoveries. Just on Last Saturday I had a 16mm dyneema rope through a snatch block let go while trying to winch 5Tonne of tree off the shed. A bit of a bang, everything hit the deck. Re-assessed changed things up and got it done.
All techniques can fail but slow winching with Dyneema is pretty bloody safe in my experience. I have had three or four rope breaks in the last 7 years that I have used dyneema, all of them were wholly uneventful compared with the stored energy of a failed snatch or failed steel rope recovery.

I use lots of dyneema, winches, shovels and a 5m drag chain to anchor winch vehicle when necessary. Just to put this in perspective - between my antics and mates and then random phone calls from mates of mates I would be involved in more recoveries than most city slickers ;) Most good proper recoveries are at this time of year when the southern cape is sticky.

In sand - I can see the benefit of a snatch - you are never really bogged in sand just failing to proceed. In mud when a vehicle is proper stuck like the 80 series in this thread I want as much control and safety as possible. Time is likely my least important factor.

SO if I was involved in the above presented recovery.
First would be looking at that huge lump of dirt in front of the cruiser I would likely guess a recovery from rear would make most sense. If too messy behind then perhaps some road enhancement via trees affected by Stihl disease. (heck with a shovel and a chainsaw Malcolm Douglas et al would have reveresed that cruiser out of that)
If behind recovery was impossible then start looking to dig out those front tyres and make a ramp out to winch up. Obviously the picture is scarce on details but the edge of that clay pan will likely have a good tree candidate for a winch or for a winch vehicle to chain to for support. Obviously length to a good anchor can be an issue but Didnt I say carry plenty of Dyneema! (2 or 3 - 30m hanks of Dyneema would weigh in the same as a snatch strap)

Anyways Im sure you get the picture.

Steve

[~Rich~]

Myself and a few others where probably 150m away from this sand bogging and attempted recovery. We did not hear the noise when the incident occured, we just saw the Patrol driver get out and walk around the back of his car and put his hands on his head. At that point we went over to assist.

The 80s driver had attempted to drive out backwards and forwards again only to dig a deeper hole.
I'm sure the Patrol driver just rushed the recovery for no good reason and should of assessed the situation more prior to attempting anything.

As said with quite a lot of digging and the use of a snatch strap and quite a "lite" pull the 80s drove out backwards fairly easily.

I have great confidence in the use of snatch straps, but care must be taken and options / proper technique must be fully assessed prior to any recovery.

The proper recovery attachment points where not easy to see in this case due to the ground level, but the one on the passenger side was visible.
It's a good idea to paint your recovery points with either Red, Yellow, Orange, White or a Fluoro colour so they are not mistaken with the wrong recovery points.

[roverrescue]

I have great confidence in the use of snatch straps, but care must be taken and options / proper technique must be fully assessed prior to any recovery.

I have great confidence that the GU rear door plus fitting cost old mate or old mates insurance company about a thousand bucks...

quite a "lite" pull the 80s drove out backwards fairly easily

Chicken or the egg - everyone running around yanking 4wds with a snatch encourages people to try a yanking technique FIRST. Before snatch straps were the cool kid on the block hemp rope and capstans got all manner of vehicles unstuck ;) I guess I learnt my lesson and I reckon Mr GU has too. Each to there own I guess. When things go bad you change your go to technique.

I cant think of a recovery in the last 7 years where I would have preferred a dynamic snatch technique????


S

[MY14D4]

Purely out of interest - is there a recovery section in the GOE Handbook?

[Dougal]

Let's not forget winching can be just as hard on recovery points.

A good heavy snatch will have about 7-8 tonnes of load (4x4 action measured it with a paj towing out an f series in the sand).
A double line pull on a 9000 can yield 8tonne.
I've had the back windows on my classic creaking when being anchor vehicle for a pathfinder and camper. I've never had that happen on a snatch though.

That is a seriously heavy snatch to pull 7-8 ton.
Remember back in physics class, force = mass x acceleration.

To pull 7-8 ton requires a 2.5 ton vehicle to pull around 3g in decelleration. That's a pull that will throw everyone and everything in the pulling vehicle against it's stops.
People will be thrown against their seat-belts, everything loose will be thrown forwards (presuming snatching from the rear) etc.

[gghaggis]

Purely out of interest - is there a recovery section in the GOE Handbook?

Not really - it covers the pertinent bits regarding the recovery points and their approximate ratings, but generic 4WD recovery is not really a focus for our handbook, which concentrates on the T5 (Terrain Response vehicles) features and differences. There are several good handbooks out there that cover recovery and basic 4WD technique (eg RMP has a few out!).

Cheers,

Gordon

[AnD3rew]

That is a good point, not all snatch straps are not equal, they have different ratings they also have a use by date (not literally) I was checking my recovery bag the other day and realised one of my snatch straps was 20 years old from when I had a suzuki Vitara. Not only was it way too light for my current needs it was probably perished.

I think sometimes when failures happen it can be gear that is too light and or too old.

I threw that one out.

[benji]

Thats right Dougal. It straightened the rear end of the paj up really quick! Their aim was to test the upper level of snatch forces in the real world. I thought it was brave using a pajero for this, a defender or the f truck would have been better choices. They had a tj there too, but they thought it didn't represent the weight of the average four wheel drive.