Lift Kit Requirements to fit 255/85's

[defrover]

Righto,

been searching for a while now on the forums and have found some pretty useful info but for the most part a lot is un answered as I'm getting mixed responses from however i ask the question to:

I want to fit 255/85 BFG KM2 to my puma 110 and I want to make sure not to over modify my current stock suspension as I love the standard setup performs… this is why I bought my defender in the first place.

Lifestyle 4WD in Morley WA has advised me that the only way to setup with these tyres is to go for a 2inch lift(king springs & terrafirma shocks) for this to work and even then will rub a little. Personally I would rather keep standard height if I could.,

Has anyone had any experience with these tyres fitted to a puma that could help???

[frantic]

Yes have them now(255/85 R16 bighorns), you don't need a lift, I had them originally on stock suspension(sagged as 120,000k's old) and with the boost alloys which are +30mm offset(that's 30mm closer to car,0 is dead centre and negative causes the wheel to stick out further) the rear tyre would only just touch the spring mount on full flex up /other side hanging down. I've now fitted Gwyn Lewis kit along with 2in dobinsons and OME shocks and also put 4, 30mm wheel spacers from the U.K so they don't touch the mounts at full flex. These spacers are not legal in Oz but are Ok in U.K and E.U. and with 255's your tyres are just inside the standard flares so you don't need the extra cost of new ones.
The other option is to fit offset wheels, as the tyres are 255 there are plenty of options.+10mm , 0, -15mm, etc. but if 35 inch rubber is even a remote thought others recommend -25mm. Remember once you go past 0 you will need wider flares to stay legal.
One other thing , have a read about the transfer case/prop when lifting a Puma as I've read off issues with some people.
Could you stick up a few pic's of the finished def?:D

[defrover]

Cheers for that info… others tell me things to sell unnecessary mods..

I have heard of the driveline issues which is why I'm not too keen to raise her, I would much rather prefer to have downward travel and leave the height close to standard. I will have to figure all this out soon enough as I just put some $$$ down on BFG 255/85

Oh and are the black sawtooth alloys the same +30 offset??

[Wicks89]

Hey mate dunno about the sawtooths but I'd say they're definitely in pos offset. I went the bfg km2 in that size and they were perfect without a lift.

However I have 0 offset steelies and I had 130 or county springs in the front of mine, were standard height but held up under the increased weight of my ARB bar. Only needed on my old 110 as the fronts were sagging.

[n plus one]

Cheers for that info… others tell me things to sell unnecessary mods..

I have heard of the driveline issues which is why I'm not too keen to raise her, I would much rather prefer to have downward travel and leave the height close to standard. I will have to figure all this out soon enough as I just put some $$$ down on BFG 255/85

Oh and are the black sawtooth alloys the same +30 offset??

Edit: looks like Sawtooths are actually the same offset as HD steelies i.e. +20mm.

Yep, they're +33mm offset - same as the standard Boosts.
I'm not sure you need to lift a Defender to fit 255/85s, all the rubbing I've seen has been on spring tower and radius arms. These are offset (rather than lift) issues.

I have 255/85s on mine, but fitted them at the same time as changing the rims and fitting a lift.

[defrover]

Yeah Rite…… Well I got HD genuine landy springs up front already to compensate for the winch/bumper

I reckon it might be worth my while to have the tyres fitted and then see what rubs n what doesn't. As Frantic mentioned maybe spacers would solve the problem.. Even if there not quite legal.

[Red90]

255s fit stock okay. Rims with less offset are best. Wolf wheels are a good choice. The tires will just barely touch in the rear at full stuff and extending the rear bump stops a bit is a good idea.

Spring lifts do not change wheel travel and do not affect tyre clearance. Bump stops are what limit compression travel and tyre clearance.

[Furka]

255s fit stock okay. Rims with less offset are best. Wolf wheels are a good choice. The tires will just barely touch in the rear at full stuff and extending the rear bump stops a bit is a good idea.

Spring lifts do not change wheel travel and do not affect tyre clearance. Bump stops are what limit compression travel and tyre clearance.

Always I have think that to put bigger tires, generally, requires a lift.

[Red90]

What tends to happen.... People put in lift springs. These are longer and/or stiffer. It makes it harder to hit the bump stops, so it appears during testing there is more clearance. You can still get to the bump stops though and at some point the wheel will move as far as it did with stock springs. Clearance should be checked with the springs removed and the axle moved through a full range.

[rijidij]

You might want to stick to alloys being a Puma, but a common fittment to Countys and Defenders is steel D1 wheels changed from their 33mm offset to a 0 offset to gain the inner clearance required. I've seen this done without lifting the suspension, but it's also common to combine the wheel change with a 2" lift which is considered by most to be conservative, but handy for a bit more vertical clearance.

Cheers, Murray

[Psimpson7]

Yep, they're +33mm offset - same as the standard Boosts.

.

No they are not. Sawtooths are +20mm NOT +33.

[uninformed]

255s fit stock okay. Rims with less offset are best. Wolf wheels are a good choice. The tires will just barely touch in the rear at full stuff and extending the rear bump stops a bit is a good idea.

Spring lifts do not change wheel travel and do not affect tyre clearance. Bump stops are what limit compression travel and tyre clearance.

I will have to disagree with the wolf rim as a good choice for these. I have wolf rims on my 110 running 235/85R16 (smaller than the 255s) Steering is not great and its not for lack of adjusting steering stops. (my radius arms are my stops :o )

You will also find the tyre will fowl on the 110 rear spring pearch (110 having larger dia springs than your 90)

They are a good simple strong rim. They are just wide enough for a 255, maybe even too narrow legally at 6.5? They just do not have enough negative offset.

Rick130 has come from running 255s on wolf rims to Mach5s with only .5inch more negative offset and 7 inch wide, its made noticable difference.

thats my 2 cents anyway.

[n plus one]

No they are not. Sawtooths are +20mm NOT +33.

Well, there's something new - I was sure they were the same as Boosts - have you measured a set? I recall that they were claimed to be a different offset initially but then others asserted that they weren't?

Edit: LR literature confirms Sawtooths are the same offset as the HD steel wheel option.

[VladTepes]

As a slight aside - anyone know of any GOOD looking wider flares for the Defender to suit wider wheels - eg 8" rims with -33mm offset.

[defrover]

So is there any specific alloys that anyone recommends that has the right offset?? I might go ahead and change my shocks to longer ones to achieve more travel .. Bilstein ok ?? Or terrafirma big bore the go??
The shop here in WA are speaking highly of these but I couldn't imagine being better than a good old set of German made quality,

[VladTepes]

Why would anyone want alloy wheels on an offroad vehicle ?

[uninformed]

Why would anyone want alloy wheels on an offroad vehicle ?

less unsprung mass for one, looks for two. Im sure there are other reasons.

[uninformed]

So is there any specific alloys that anyone recommends that has the right offset?? I might go ahead and change my shocks to longer ones to achieve more travel .. Bilstein ok ?? Or terrafirma big bore the go??
The shop here in WA are speaking highly of these but I couldn't imagine being better than a good old set of German made quality,

Koni and Bilstein about the best of the standard type shocks. After that you have the semi racing/off road shocks by King, Fox, Bilstein.

There are also others like radflo, and now being sold by Superior Engineering Amanda and Profender.

Seach here, there are 100s of threads with shock info.

Back to the topic at hand, I have no experience with alloys so can not help sorry.

[dcale]

If you go the 2" longer shocks you will also need to drop the sway bars and add spring relocators and retaining bars. I have sway bar blocks that drop them about 30mm, but I am still getting the rear sway bar inverting, which I still need to resolve.

[patclan]

I have ZU Alloy rims on my 110 with 255's the rim is +11 offset, it does make a difference to turn circle as well as adjusting the stop bolts.

I had a bit of sag on the front with the bullbar and winch so the tyre was quite close to the flair, some +2 springs in the front fixed that, in the rear I have the auxiliary full tank in the right rear corner, fully laden going over the Simpson the tyres did rub the tank on a couple of occasions but these were big hits if you know what I mean, I have airbags to put in the rear before my next trip to help that. I also have Koni raids all round, I have not actually lifted the vehicle, the gaps between the bump stops are pretty much what they used to be before I added lots of weight, the springs just compensated for that weight.

I find the bigger tyre great for the extra clearance, my only issue is the steering does not feel as good as it used to, my 255's are km2, but I will probably change to 265 AT soon and keep the km2 for reserve, not sure if the change in tyre height affect the steering much but I am going to find out I guess when I go to the 265.

Cheers
Pat

[MLD]

Edit: LR literature confirms Sawtooths are the same offset as the HD steel wheel option.

The HD (wolf) are +20mm. I have sawtooth rims at home but haven't looked at the offset.


As a slight aside - anyone know of any GOOD looking wider flares for the Defender to suit wider wheels - eg 8" rims with -33mm offset.

have a look at Flatdog. Sold by Coffs Harbour 4wd and a few others on Ebay. Bit pricey. I got mine from the UK but postage is a killer with the falling dollar.


Why would anyone want alloy wheels on an offroad vehicle ?

As uninformed said, unsprung weight. I have Disco 1 alloys and disco 1 steelies with 33" muddies. There is a marked groan factor when lifting the steel rim over the alloy. A test a while back done by 4wd Action (take what you like from the info) on after market steel v factory steel v factory alloy v aftermarket alloy. Long and short the factory steel and factory alloy were about the same strength which was twice as strong at the aftermarket steel. Aftermarket alloy was 50% stronger again over the factory stuff. Factory alloys take a hell-o-va beating before becoming broken. I've been running around on alloys for 3 years doing tough stuff and giving them a real working over and they are scratched and showing signs of abuse but yet to fail me.

As for the OP, in my opinion and experience with the 255/85 a lift is not necessary if your springs are holding up well (not sagging). If you are minded to change shocks you might as well splurge on coils as well and have them matched. Coils are cheap (relatively) and a modest extra expense in labour versus just replacing the shocks.

As mentioned earlier a 0 offset is about perfect for the 255/85 to maximise steering lock and avoid rubbing on the rear spring hanger. Easiest and cheapest is a tie between 30mm spacers on the factory +33mm rims OR aftermarket steel rims with 0 offset. It's an option to re-dish the disco 1 steelies to a 0 offset but unless you have a set laying around the cost of buying a set then modifying them may not be cost effective. Eastern Wheel Works will make you a set of HD steelies for $340 each but word on the street is that they are very heavy.

MLD

[n plus one]

I have ZU Alloy rims on my 110 with 255's the rim is +11 offset, it does make a difference to turn circle as well as adjusting the stop bolts.

I had a bit of sag on the front with the bullbar and winch so the tyre was quite close to the flair, some +2 springs in the front fixed that, in the rear I have the auxiliary full tank in the right rear corner, fully laden going over the Simpson the tyres did rub the tank on a couple of occasions but these were big hits if you know what I mean, I have airbags to put in the rear before my next trip to help that. I also have Koni raids all round, I have not actually lifted the vehicle, the gaps between the bump stops are pretty much what they used to be before I added lots of weight, the springs just compensated for that weight.

I find the bigger tyre great for the extra clearance, my only issue is the steering does not feel as good as it used to, my 255's are km2, but I will probably change to 265 AT soon and keep the km2 for reserve, not sure if the change in tyre height affect the steering much but I am going to find out I guess when I go to the 265.

Cheers
Pat

I've found that 255/85s feel more 'rolly' when cornering or lane changing than 265/75s.

I too like the extra clearance the bigger tyres provide - to the extent that I'm thinking about changing my diff gears and running 35s.

To the OP, it's important to remember that any lift that involves increased travel doesn't give you additional tyre clearance at full compression - it just means you'll be less likely to spend as much time at full compression. Only a body lift/suspension-drop style lift will give you more clearance at full compression.

[defrover]

The HD (wolf) are +20mm. I have sawtooth rims at home but haven't looked at the offset.



have a look at Flatdog. Sold by Coffs Harbour 4wd and a few others on Ebay. Bit pricey. I got mine from the UK but postage is a killer with the falling dollar.



As uninformed said, unsprung weight. I have Disco 1 alloys and disco 1 steelies with 33" muddies. There is a marked groan factor when lifting the steel rim over the alloy. A test a while back done by 4wd Action (take what you like from the info) on after market steel v factory steel v factory alloy v aftermarket alloy. Long and short the factory steel and factory alloy were about the same strength which was twice as strong at the aftermarket steel. Aftermarket alloy was 50% stronger again over the factory stuff. Factory alloys take a hell-o-va beating before becoming broken. I've been running around on alloys for 3 years doing tough stuff and giving them a real working over and they are scratched and showing signs of abuse but yet to fail me.

As for the OP, in my opinion and experience with the 255/85 a lift is not necessary if your springs are holding up well (not sagging). If you are minded to change shocks you might as well splurge on coils as well and have them matched. Coils are cheap (relatively) and a modest extra expense in labour versus just replacing the shocks.

As mentioned earlier a 0 offset is about perfect for the 255/85 to maximise steering lock and avoid rubbing on the rear spring hanger. Easiest and cheapest is a tie between 30mm spacers on the factory +33mm rims OR aftermarket steel rims with 0 offset. It's an option to re-dish the disco 1 steelies to a 0 offset but unless you have a set laying around the cost of buying a set then modifying them may not be cost effective. Eastern Wheel Works will make you a set of HD steelies for $340 each but word on the street is that they are very heavy.

MLD
Ill second the whole alloy thing… been using them forever and I reckon they are fine

[Drover]

285/75x16 MTZ's on 8inch-Neutral off set.

Flares are Flat Dogs +50mm.

Flat Dog flares are far superior quality than the TF's, perfect fit and do not develop the "sag" between the screws. These have been on over 2 year.

No rubbing on steering links or guards. A little on the stock flares but not on the FD's

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/1458.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/1575.jpg

[defrover]

285/75x16 MTZ's on 8inch-Neutral off set.

Flares are Flat Dogs +50mm.

Flat Dog flares are far superior quality than the TF's, perfect fit and do not develop the "sag" between the screws. These have been on over 2 year.

No rubbing on steering links or guards. A little on the stock flares but not on the FD's

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/1458.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/1575.jpg
Looks like a sweet setup bru. So then you don't have a lift just flares and different wheels??

[Red90]

I will have to disagree with the wolf rim as a good choice for these. I have wolf rims on my 110 running 235/85R16 (smaller than the 255s) Steering is not great and its not for lack of adjusting steering stops. (my radius arms are my stops :o )

You will also find the tyre will fowl on the 110 rear spring pearch (110 having larger dia springs than your 90).

What you are saying does not make sense. The Wolf rims have less backspacing than a stock Defender rim. This must give more clearance than stock.

On your 235s, the center of the tyre is moved out by 13 mm, so steering lock has to be better than stock. The fact it is crap is the way it comes from the factory....

Believe it or not, people have 110s here as well..... Lived in Aus for 5 years as well. If you were in the Gold Coast in the late 90s, we probably met on the trails.

The only time I've seen people with spring perch problems is running Disco or RR rims which have much more backspacing. The aftermarket wheels with 0 to 10 mm neg. offset are great but you start running into problems fouling the arches and need to trim with bigger tyres.

[Drover]

Looks like a sweet setup bru. So then you don't have a lift just flares and different wheels??

It has a 50mm lift.

[defrover]

Do you reckon it has improved your articulation and all that jazz or just made you sit higher and did nothing for performance ?

[uninformed]

What you are saying does not make sense. The Wolf rims have less backspacing than a stock Defender rim. This must give more clearance than stock.

On your 235s, the center of the tyre is moved out by 13 mm, so steering lock has to be better than stock. The fact it is crap is the way it comes from the factory....

Believe it or not, people have 110s here as well..... Lived in Aus for 5 years as well. If you were in the Gold Coast in the late 90s, we probably met on the trails.

The only time I've seen people with spring perch problems is running Disco or RR rims which have much more backspacing. The aftermarket wheels with 0 to 10 mm neg. offset are great but you start running into problems fouling the arches and need to trim with bigger tyres.

Ok, I never said the wolf rim was worse than the stock 5.5 steel rims. Just that the steering is not great with the wolf rim and my 235, so one could assume it will be a touch worse with the slightly wider and taller 255. and that not ideal. Its not rocket science.

Going from a stock 5.5 rim to a wolf 6.5 rim also changes the tyre profile slightly when mounted (ie the tyre will be a touch wider on the wider rim)

Even with no spring lift the rear tyres (235 on a 5.5) come very close to rubbing on the spring perch. Add taller, wider tyre on a not much less backspace rim and its not going to go away.

Add a lift and it gets worse.

Yes I am aware that there are 110s in Nth America, yes I am aware that you lived here for a few years....

[Drover]

Do you reckon it has improved your articulation and all that jazz or just made you sit higher and did nothing for performance ?

The lift has really only provided additional clearance. Obviously the chassis is 50mm higher and that has allowed for the 285/75x16 so about an additional 20mm on the diffs.

Performance and handling is better but that is likely a consequence of all of the after market bits. ( and it has had lots of bits to get it right )

[noogie]

I run those tyres on my td5 on standard rims and I have no issues. I know other guys who haven't had to lift their defenders. I don't think the puma is much different to the td5 regarding height requirements. Personally I'd recommend a double Cardon prop shaft if you lift it.

Cheers
Mick

[defrover]

cheers noogie, I have bought the tyres and there sitting at the tyre shop waiting to be fitted so I may just slap em on the sawtooths and find out for myself if it rubs on anything.. as for the lift the only thing I am hesitant about is the fact the 4WD shop which is a landie specialist didn't say I needed a DC shaft but yet it seems to be common knowledge on here.

Might have to get a second opinion on the subject.

[Red90]

Going from a stock 5.5 rim to a wolf 6.5 rim also changes the tyre profile slightly when mounted (ie the tyre will be a touch wider on the wider rim)

Even with no spring lift the rear tyres (235 on a 5.5) come very close to rubbing on the spring perch. Add taller, wider tyre on a not much less backspace rim and its not going to go away.

Add a lift and it gets worse.


The 255 is 20 mm wider. The rim is 25 mm wider and the width is all to the outside. The inside of the tyre won't stick in any further than stock. Anyway, I've seen a few 110s in person with 255s and Wolf rims and none had any rubbing issues. They put the tyre in a nice location that does not stick out past the flares. If you go bigger like 285/75, then the aftermarket rims with less offset are needed.

How does a lift make it worse? The axle travel is the same as before.

[Red90]

They are a good simple strong rim. They are just wide enough for a 255, maybe even too narrow legally at 6.5? They just do not have enough negative offset.

Rick130 has come from running 255s on wolf rims to Mach5s with only .5inch more negative offset and 7 inch wide, its made noticable difference.


And just so we don't get confused on terms. All of these wheel/rims we are discussing have positive offset (the tyre is offset closer into the car than the mounting surface).

Normally a 6.5" rim is legal for a 255/85.
Mud-Terrain T/A KM2 | BFGoodrich Tires (http://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/tire-selector/size/ltmetric/255/85/16/OE/BNW/mud-terrain-t-a-km2/tire-details#techspecs)

[landybehr]

does anybody see driveline vibes after a spring lift of 50mm with the TD4 ? IIRC the pre-TD4 have the engine/gearbox take 50mm usually without issue. But the TD4 could be more prone to, due to engine/gearbox angled upwards more than the earlier Defenders.

[n plus one]

does anybody see driveline vibes after a spring lift of 50mm with the TD4 ? IIRC the pre-TD4 have the engine/gearbox take 50mm usually without issue. But the TD4 could be more prone to, due to engine/gearbox angled upwards more than the earlier Defenders.

The TDCi (Puma) engined Defenders are more prone to front Uni binding as a result of a lift. It seems like most need a DC, although some have got away without it.

FWIW a DC was also recommended by certain suspension manufacturers (OME for example) when lifting a TD5 engined Defender, although in practice the seem to be less sensitive to a lift.

I fitted a DC to my Puma prior to lifting it so I don't know if I could have got away without it.

I'll be interested to see if 255/85s work we'll on Sawtooths. I know i had rubbing with 265/75s on Boosts.

[Drover]

If you lift a PUMA you will need a DC prop shaft, make no doubt about it !

After a lift PUMA's will suffer from either binding of the uni joints & those that don't bind they will vibrate at around the 80-90k's. Without exception !


Some of the other thing you will at least need to do, if your going to do it properly are
- caster correction control arms
- new front sway bar mounts to lower the sway bar to prevent rubbing on the front prop shaft.

[uninformed]

The 255 is 20 mm wider. The rim is 25 mm wider and the width is all to the outside. The inside of the tyre won't stick in any further than stock. Anyway, I've seen a few 110s in person with 255s and Wolf rims and none had any rubbing issues. They put the tyre in a nice location that does not stick out past the flares. If you go bigger like 285/75, then the aftermarket rims with less offset are needed.

How does a lift make it worse? The axle travel is the same as before.

When I mount my 235 on a 5.5 then a 6.5 rim, they mount up the exact same profile?? I think not.

While you math tells you that the 255 on the 6.5 is all out board, it is not. Mount a 235 to a 6.5 then mount a 255 to the same 6.5 and measure from the WHS to the furthest inside of tyre and they WILL be different.

SO, back to mo original post, I have 235 on these so called wolf rims, the turning circle is not great and the tyre rubs on the spring perch. Tell me how it is not going to change if I were to fit 255s. It's not just the width, but the height. The taller/larger OD tyre will contact the RA and spring perch before the 235, even if it was not wider, which it is....

Think about the Roll Center, the point at which the axle wants to pivot about. This does not change in the rear with a spring lift. Raise the chassis on the springs and now the tyres are arcing into the spring and perch more so than over the top of it.

[uninformed]

And just so we don't get confused on terms. All of these wheel/rims we are discussing have positive offset (the tyre is offset closer into the car than the mounting surface).

Normally a 6.5" rim is legal for a 255/85.
Mud-Terrain T/A KM2 | BFGoodrich Tires (http://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/tire-selector/size/ltmetric/255/85/16/OE/BNW/mud-terrain-t-a-km2/tire-details#techspecs)

yep agreed, they need less positive offset, or more negaitve offset (heading in the same direction, but not the best way to describe it I agree). yes it could still be a positive offset rim with less positive offset.

[defrover]

Thanks drover your info has been extremely helpful. I guess I am a little cautious as I know all about the consequences of lifting a vehicle. My last car ended up with a 6inch lift and needed a hell of a lot to get it driving ok to say the least (jeep Cherokees don't lift well) it's funny how land rover spend bulk money on engineers to get the setup right from factory and then we come along and mess with it and expect everything to sweeeet...

[n plus one]

Thanks drover your info has been extremely helpful. I guess I am a little cautious as I know all about the consequences of lifting a vehicle. My last car ended up with a 6inch lift and needed a hell of a lot to get it driving ok to say the least (jeep Cherokees don't lift well) it's funny how land rover spend bulk money on engineers to get the setup right from factory and then we come along and mess with it and expect everything to sweeeet...

I'd suggest that to get a two inch lift full sorted on a Puma you'll need:

The right springs and shocks (not opening up that can of worms!)
A DC prop.
Swaybars spacers (or removal).
Some form of castor correction (slotted swivels, bushes, radius arms).
Cranked trailing arms (or angled bushes).

FWIW my rims are ET10 (which means they have a positive 10mm offset i.e. they each sit 23mm further out than the standard Boost rims or ~ 10mm further out than Sawtooths) and I have no rubbing issues at all with 255/85s AND my 50mm lift does not (at least by design) limit the upward travel of my axles.

[Red90]

The comparison is 235 on stock 5.5 rim versus 255 on wolfs. The inside of the 255 will sit out a bit further. If your 235s are hitting the perches on wolfs, there is something seriously wrong with your truck.

[uninformed]

The comparison is 235 on stock 5.5 rim versus 255 on wolfs. The inside of the 255 will sit out a bit further. If your 235s are hitting the perches on wolfs, there is something seriously wrong with your truck.

ok, so what should I be looking for? Id like to fix it before it gets worse :(

[frantic]

ok, so what should I be looking for? Id like to fix it before it gets worse :(

Just wondering if only one side is touching , or both the same?

[chopper]

Unsprung weight , now that's funny. ( on a truck )
Ever had a look at how much unsprung weight there is with a live axle set up.
As for the original question, the 255 will be approx. 10mm wider each way and 17 mm taller ( not much difference on a truck )

[uninformed]

FWIW, I just went and measured my original 110 5.5w rims next to my 130 6.5w rims.

From the WMS to the inside lip was:

110 = 120~121mm
130 = 116~117mm

So at most a 5mm difference from WMS to inside lip. Looking at both rims, there is a material thickness difference (slightly thicker on the 130) and no noticable difference in the rolled edge that the tyre bead mounts against. To me I would say little to no difference and if anything the slightly thicker material puts the 130 that mm closer to the 110

Now as Red90 says that extra inch is pretty much all out board. BUT, the inside lip is pretty much the same give or take a few mm. Now I can tell you that a 235 mounted to a 5.5 will have a narrower profile in relation to its spec'd size than a 255 on a 6.5.

So a 255 on the 130 6.5w rim is going to have the inside of it near as close to a 235 on the 110 5.5w rim.

Now I guess the argument could be made that the 130 rim is not infact the Wolf rim... but since pretty much every one here refers to the 130 rim AS the wolf rim, I guess we can leave it there.

[Red90]

Yes that is what I was getting at. These are my measurements. http://www.red90.ca/rovers/roverwheels.html

[uninformed]

Yes that is what I was getting at. These are my measurements. Land Rover Wheel Specification (http://www.red90.ca/rovers/roverwheels.html)

meh, even with your measurements (in your favour) a 255 on a 6.5 will be the same inside point as a 235 on a 5.5...

I double checked and my Genuine LR 5.5 is definitely 120mm from WMS to inside lip as per your cross section.

BTW, im not the first person to report rubbing of rear spring perches on the rear of 110/130 on stock rims.

[Red90]

meh, even with your measurements (in your favour) a 255 on a 6.5 will be the same inside point as a 235 on a 5.5...


Exactly... THAT is my point. That is why they won't rub on the perches. That and all of the people with 110s, Wolfs and 255s that have no problems.

Spring perch rubbing is a problem with people that try and run Disco or RR rims on a 110. Those wheels have 1/2" to 3/4" more backspacing and with the 7" rear springs on a 110, you rub.

Your talk of lifts and taller tyres does not influence this. The axle moves up and down and the tyre goes past the closest point of the perch at some point, stock or lifted.

[n plus one]

Your talk of lifts and taller tyres does not influence this. The axle moves up and down and the tyre goes past the closest point of the perch at some point, stock or lifted.

While I don't know if Wolfs have sufficient offset for 255/85s to clear the spring perches, the axle doesn't just move up and down it also rotates around its axis point under articulation - which, in my experience, is when you really find out if you have sufficiently offset wheels.

[uninformed]

here are some pics to add to my BS :)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[DeeJay]

I'll bet my left one, before measuring my 2 vehicles, that the spring mount for the 130 is wider than the 110,
Big dejavue for me as I had the same problem, not realizing that the 110 I bought second hand had a 130 rear end grafted over. I'm fairly sure it also had the bigger ( says he checking the left one) spring mounts grafted as well.
I run 255's on 7" black aftermarket rims with 113mm space.
No worries, so the 4mm makes enough difference. I had real issues with Rangie alloys that are 138mm. Could smell the rubber:o


Edit. I just measured both, 130 is 24 cm 110 is 20 cm. That's your problem..

[uninformed]

I'll bet my left one, before measuring my 2 vehicles, that the spring mount for the 130 is wider than the 110,
Big dejavue for me as I had the same problem, not realizing that the 110 I bought second hand had a 130 rear end grafted over. I'm fairly sure it also had the bigger ( says he checking the left one) spring mounts grafted as well.
I run 255's on 7" black aftermarket rims with 113mm space.
No worries, so the 4mm makes enough difference. I had real issues with Rangie alloys that are 138mm. Could smell the rubber:o


Edit. I just measured both, 130 is 24 cm 110 is 20 cm. That's your problem..

What and where are you measuring that's is giving you 240 and 200mm ???

[DeeJay]

From the chassis to the outer point - Where your tyre is rubbing. Suggest you double check as the 110 tray I have is custom built & engineered but definitely has a 130 rear axle & inner & outer rear springs.

[uninformed]

Ok, so you have a 1985 custom built 110 extra cab with some 130 parts and your spring perches are 240mm wide from the outside of the chassis......and thats my problem also

hahaha :D funny stuff

Nope, mine are 200mm. I also can not imagine why the 130 spring perches would be an extra 40mm wide. I can imagine 4-6mm for some extra strengthening, plate etc, but not 40mm?? I was under the impression that the 130 share the same coil dia and wheel track (basic axle assembly sans thicker tube) as a 110? If so how can they fit an extra 40mm width in the spring perch?

Could it be that your custom 110 has something done to it that is not stock?

Maybe a 130 owner could measure there rear spring pearches and report back?

There are a couple of simple reasons my tyres rub and its not something seriously wrong, nore is it rocket surgery :)

[DeeJay]

OK, Sorry for trying to help.:angry:

[uninformed]

OK, Sorry for trying to help.:angry:

Did you notice the BIG smiley I had in my txt??? :D

Don't be angry you assumption was completely wrong :p

[DeeJay]

Did you notice the BIG smiley I had in my txt??? :D

Don't be angry you assumption was completely wrong :p



Your post- for all my comprehension- was mocking me - and the poking out of the tongue in your response also does...
I said from the outset that my County was custom built.

[uninformed]

Your post- for all my comprehension- was mocking me - and the poking out of the tongue in your response also does...
I said from the outset that my County was custom built.

meh, you were fairly confident it was "my problem" without ever laying eyes on my truck ;)

BTW, im still not sure how the 130 mounts are 40mm wider? or do you mean 4mm (even though you wrote 24cm and 20cm)???

Even if it is only 4mm, it would not be enough to make a difference, my tyres would still rub on either. (especially since they already are on the narrower of the two ;) )

I still stand by my original comment that if the OP is going to buy new rims to suit the 255/85R16, that the "Wolf", "130" or "HD steel wheel" not the best option, nore even a good one. IMO :)

And Im still wanting to hear how, or what is "seriously wrong" with my truck :angel:

[n plus one]

here are some pics to add to my BS :)

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=72243&d=1391318404

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=72244&d=1391318448

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=72245&d=1391318613

My 265/75r16s did the same thing on Boost rims - I don't think the side biters help!

[voltron]

IN reference to the comments about alloy vs steel wheel. Whilst I was up in Rockhampton over xmas, I had my car serviced at a LandRover workshop. Whilst there I saw pictures of a Black 110 that had aftermarket alloy wheel failure, causing it to flip 3 times. It was the rear left wheel from memory and it looked like the car flipped sideways wheel to wheel as the damage to the roof wasn't as bad as it should have been but the car was a mess and the driver somehow survived. The rims were expensive alloys and rated appropriately for the car.

I do not want to remove the factory rims after seeing these pictures and I am surpised it hasn't been mentioned on the forum. Does anyone know or know of the owner.

And sorry for being a bit off topic.

Osss

[uninformed]

My 265/75r16s did the same thing on Boost rims - I don't think the side biters help!

I think a 265 on a 7 inch Boost rim is going to have close to the same side wall overhang as a 235 on a 5.5 inch Steel rim. Given that a Boost is a + 33mm offset rim, same as the 5.5, but wider, Im going to make a huge GUESS and say the inside of the 265 tyre would be further in than the 235.

Can I ask what vehicle they were fitted to?
what were the rear spring rates?
what was the rear weight?

[defrover]

Yes have them now(255/85 R16 bighorns), you don't need a lift, I had them originally on stock suspension(sagged as 120,000k's old) and with the boost alloys which are +30mm offset(that's 30mm closer to car,0 is dead centre and negative causes the wheel to stick out further) the rear tyre would only just touch the spring mount on full flex up /other side hanging down. I've now fitted Gwyn Lewis kit along with 2in dobinsons and OME shocks and also put 4, 30mm wheel spacers from the U.K so they don't touch the mounts at full flex. These spacers are not legal in Oz but are Ok in U.K and E.U. and with 255's your tyres are just inside the standard flares so you don't need the extra cost of new ones.
The other option is to fit offset wheels, as the tyres are 255 there are plenty of options.+10mm , 0, -15mm, etc. but if 35 inch rubber is even a remote thought others recommend -25mm. Remember once you go past 0 you will need wider flares to stay legal.
One other thing , have a read about the transfer case/prop when lifting a Puma as I've read off issues with some people.
Could you stick up a few pic's of the finished def?:D
Wil definitely post some photos once the tyres and rims are on.. This is gonna take longer and cost a lot more than I expected.. Got some wheels to be ordered from UK if the price don't shock the misses… maybe i should just buy them and hope she doesn't notice:angel: I think they are silverline rims with +15 offset.

Prob go with with a slight lift on the backend and change shocks to bilsteins. fronts already raised slightly with heavy duty LR springs so should be ok

[n plus one]

I think a 265 on a 7 inch Boost rim is going to have close to the same side wall overhang as a 235 on a 5.5 inch Steel rim. Given that a Boost is a + 33mm offset rim, same as the 5.5, but wider, Im going to make a huge GUESS and say the inside of the 265 tyre would be further in than the 235.

Can I ask what vehicle they were fitted to?
what were the rear spring rates?
what was the rear weight?

I'd second your guess.

Vehicle was (is) a MY09 110 wagon - heavy rear springs (cant recall rate, sorry) plus air assist bags (~20psi) and dual shocks. Load varied from 500kg to 1000kg.

255/85s on ET10 rims on the same rig don't touch.

[Red90]

My 265/75r16s did the same thing on Boost rims - I don't think the side biters help!

Boost rims have 3/4" more backspacing than Wolf and stock Defender steel wheels. It is expected that they will rub on a 110 in the rear with the wider spring perches.

I have no idea why uninformed's stock sized tyres are rubbing on stock sized wheels unless there is something non-stock about his truck.

[n plus one]

Boost rims have 3/4" more backspacing than Wolf and stock Defender steel wheels. It is expected that they will rub on a 110 in the rear with the wider spring perches.

I have no idea why uninformed's stock sized tyres are rubbing on stock sized wheels unless there is something non-stock about his truck.

Yeah, I expected them to rub!

Surprised tat they would have that much additional back space though - they're ET33, while Wolfs are ET20.6 but a bit narrower.

[uninformed]

Boost rims have 3/4" more backspacing than Wolf and stock Defender steel wheels. It is expected that they will rub on a 110 in the rear with the wider spring perches.

I have no idea why uninformed's stock sized tyres are rubbing on stock sized wheels unless there is something non-stock about his truck.

yes there is something(s) not stock about my truck.

+2 spring lift, different rate springs, +25mm bumpstops.... The answer is in one of my photos ;)

[uninformed]

I'd second your guess.

Vehicle was (is) a MY09 110 wagon - heavy rear springs (cant recall rate, sorry) plus air assist bags (~20psi) and dual shocks. Load varied from 500kg to 1000kg.

255/85s on ET10 rims on the same rig don't touch.

When you say heavy rear springs, do you mean LR type of AM? And were they stock height or longer?

[n plus one]

When you say heavy rear springs, do you mean LR type of AM? And were they stock height or longer?

Dobinsons, 50mm lift.

[uninformed]

Dobinsons, 50mm lift.

Ok, next question. When the tyres would rub, was the axle on the bumpstop or still gap between them?

[n plus one]

Ok, next question. When the tyres would rub, was the axle on the bumpstop or still gap between them?

Too many questions! :D sorry, can't answer that one. If I get out in the weekend I'll let you know the circumstances that result in the least tyre/spring seat gap (as the Boosts aren't on the car anymore).

[DeeJay]

I dug out this photo of a Puma from an ARB field day stand & you can see the spring mount rubbed shiny from the 255's. It was fully articulated on ramps & the other side was pressed hard against the tyre. Not sure what the rims & their offset was, but I'd say standard suspension from its looks.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/02/1061.jpg

[uninformed]

Thanks Deejay,

I have no idea of the names of the LR alloy rims as fitted to the Defenders, but do know they are not all the same offset.

As stated above the Boost alloys will be further inboard than a LR steel rim. So if the ones in the pic are the Boost rims, then they are behind before they even start.

Here is what I think is happening. 2 things: 1st, if you have a spring lift, the roll centre is now lower in relation to the upper spring perch, the roll centre is the point in which the suspension wants to pivot about. lower it and the arc the axle housing scribes will put the tyres into the spring perches at a lower point.

2nd, its not as simple as the roll centre staying fixed and having the axle pivot/swing from that point. Depending on your spring rates and sprung mass, the point at which the axle on the compression side, or up travel side, during articulation, stops moving up in a nice arc and starts to pivot at the axle end can change. Imagine if you installed 100mm taller bump stops and had no bump stop gap. With the axle touching the bump stop, the wheel/tyre being so close to that point would just start to arc into the spring.

If you look at the second picture I added of the three, you can just see that the bump stop axle pad has a clear gap above it. There would have been at least 40mm before it was going to hit my 25mm longer bump stops.

Why, well for my sprung mass, my springs are too stiff, or too much spring rate for them to compress any more. So the spring gets to a point where it stops compressing and the axle end - wheel/tyre starts to pivot there and arc into the spring perch at a faster rate.

Now some may say well that wont happen on a stock vehicle. Well it does! my springs are 80lb less/lighter than the stock LR springs that were in there (250 lb as opposed to LR 330 lb)

While my truck is fairly light in the rear end, it is not much lighter than a stock cab chassis with alloy tray. When it was stock, my 235s on 5.5 steel rims use to rub as well. That was with stock springs (330 lb, stock height, no lift)

I would guess that even a full bodied 110 with no gear in the back would be hard pressed compressing the 330 lb springs fully for the axle to hit the bump stop at low speed articulation.

Then again, I could be totally wrong?? ( if so, disregard all that wafting) :)

[defrover]

I dug out this photo of a Puma from an ARB field day stand & you can see the spring mount rubbed shiny from the 255's. It was fully articulated on ramps & the other side was pressed hard against the tyre. Not sure what the rims & their offset was, but I'd say standard suspension from its looks.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/02/1061.jpg

Nice pic deejay... Did you notice any rubbing on the front of the vehicle??

[n plus one]

Nice pic deejay... Did you notice any rubbing on the front of the vehicle??

If he did I expect it would have been on the Radius Arms and not the spring towers. You can eliminate this by adjusting your steering lock stops, but then your turning circle gets worse.

My 265/75s on Boosts used to rub their side biters on the RAs - you could feel the lugs seperately as it did it!

All these issues are easily addressed with greater offset wheels though.

[strangy]

Ok, so you have a 1985 custom built 110 extra cab with some 130 parts and your spring perches are 240mm wide from the outside of the chassis......and thats my problem also

hahaha :D funny stuff

Nope, mine are 200mm. I also can not imagine why the 130 spring perches would be an extra 40mm wide. I can imagine 4-6mm for some extra strengthening, plate etc, but not 40mm?? I was under the impression that the 130 share the same coil dia and wheel track (basic axle assembly sans thicker tube) as a 110? If so how can they fit an extra 40mm width in the spring perch?

Could it be that your custom 110 has something done to it that is not stock?

Maybe a 130 owner could measure there rear spring pearches and report back?

There are a couple of simple reasons my tyres rub and its not something seriously wrong, nore is it rocket surgery :)


My 96 130 has 200mm from chassis to edge of spring perch.
I have always understood the 110 perch and 130 perch were the same.
Army chassis are different around this area.

[DeeJay]

My 96 130 has 200mm from chassis to edge of spring perch.
I have always understood the 110 perch and 130 perch were the same.
Army chassis are different around this area.


After reading this I jacked up my modified County tray & washed out all the mud & crap $ re measured & it comes out at 200mm also. It measures 240 to the chassis centre weld, so my bad on that one...
As a matter of further interest here is another couple of photo's of that Puma, possibly one on loan from a customer to ARB, but you can see from the bump stop that the limiting factor here on articulation is the tyre hitting the spring perch. Not great advertising for ARB:angel:
Defrover N plus one has summed it up as for the front..

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/02/1022.jpg




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/02/1023.jpg

[dingsy]

Interesting thread. I was under the impression that +20mm 7" dynamic wheels would clear the spring perch for 255/85's ,and they're very close in offset to the wolf rims. Not so sure now after reading all this. This is also for a perentie which adds further complication. I was leaning toward 255/85's but might need to settle for 265/75 or 235/85. Looking at that ARB puma an extra 13mm or so offset would probably make a substantial difference though.

[uninformed]

Interesting thread. I was under the impression that +20mm 7" dynamic wheels would clear the spring perch for 255/85's ,and they're very close in offset to the wolf rims. Not so sure now after reading all this. This is also for a perentie which adds further complication. I was leaning toward 255/85's but might need to settle for 265/75 or 235/85. Looking at that ARB puma an extra 13mm or so offset would probably make a substantial difference though.

IMO with the right wheels and spring rate there should be no problem running 255/85R16s

[n plus one]

As a matter of further interest here is another couple of photo's of that Puma, possibly one on loan from a customer to ARB, but you can see from the bump stop that the limiting factor here on articulation is the tyre hitting the spring perch.

Pretty sure those pics are of the Deefer in the ARB cattle dog - presumably an employees rig?

[defrover]

If he did I expect it would have been on the Radius Arms and not the spring towers. You can eliminate this by adjusting your steering lock stops, but then your turning circle gets worse.

My 265/75s on Boosts used to rub their side biters on the RAs - you could feel the lugs seperately as it did it!

All these issues are easily addressed with greater offset wheels though.

I have made a few measurements under the car at full steering lock and I reckon we are talking mm for the 255's to touch the radius arms. Given I have the sawtooths with 20mm offset should be pretty close.

[defrover]

Finally had the BFG 255/85 fitted on the black sawtooth rims and while i hnavnt been off road, I can report there is no rubbing on the radius arms at least .

the rear may rub only time will tell…
http://imageshack.com/a/img577/7821/7pnz.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img833/7139/2y26.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img196/9659/1yrx.jpg

[dingsy]

Well, i just jumped in and put some BFG All Terrain 265/75r16's on the Perentie on 20mm offset dynamic rims. The rear tyres look very close to the spring perches, what sort of clearance in mm would be required here? I think i'd be lucky to fit two fingers in the gap.

No steering adjustment required at the front, so the turning circle was obviously bigger than it needed to be before.

I'm worried i'm going to smash up the spring perches the first time i go off road with the new tyres - although i may be over-reacting. I probably should have gone the 235/85's but it's a bit late for that now!

Cheers,

Matt

[100inch]

defrover, thanks for posting the pics. So are you running stock springs at this stage? I am looking at 255s as well. I am pretty sure it will have a positive effect on the overal gearing. Where did you get the Sawtooth's from? Dealer? Thanks m

[frantic]

Well, i just jumped in and put some BFG All Terrain 265/75r16's on the Perentie on 20mm offset dynamic rims. The rear tyres look very close to the spring perches, what sort of clearance in mm would be required here? I think i'd be lucky to fit two fingers in the gap.

No steering adjustment required at the front, so the turning circle was obviously bigger than it needed to be before.

I'm worried i'm going to smash up the spring perches the first time i go off road with the new tyres - although i may be over-reacting. I probably should have gone the 235/85's but it's a bit late for that now!

Cheers,

Matt
My 255's when first fitted rubbed on the back spring mount with boost alloys which have 30mm positive , if you have +20mm offset this is 10 mm further away and the 265 is only 5 mm closer but 1 inch shorter than a 255/85. You should be fine
100inch, I don't know about dealer but price check all options as they would be uk imports. Try a few local suppliers and check the cost of importing from th uk direct. As long as the wheels cost under $1 k aus you pay no GST, if their over you pay it on freight as well+ other charges.

[Daniel]

IN reference to the comments about alloy vs steel wheel. Whilst I was up in Rockhampton over xmas, I had my car serviced at a LandRover workshop. Whilst there I saw pictures of a Black 110 that had aftermarket alloy wheel failure, causing it to flip 3 times. It was the rear left wheel from memory and it looked like the car flipped sideways wheel to wheel as the damage to the roof wasn't as bad as it should have been but the car was a mess and the driver somehow survived. The rims were expensive alloys and rated appropriately for the car.

I do not want to remove the factory rims after seeing these pictures and I am surpised it hasn't been mentioned on the forum. Does anyone know or know of the owner.

And sorry for being a bit off topic.

Osss

How can one tell what failed when after a truck has rolled 3 times over????

Anyway, FWIW I've run many 100,000 kms off road on factory LR alloys with no failures. On the other ahnd I've had experience with Status alloys (chinese crap sold by Bob Jane T Marts) which failed after 200 km - yes two hundred km - 2 trips to town and back.

[defrover]

Just wanted to add to this by sayin anyone keen on goin with these tyres is that they work well with absolutely no rubbing on the black sawtooth alloys at least .. I have tested the suspension on some heavily rutted tracks with longer bilstein shocks so lots of articulation and not one single bit of rub mark