Lockers

[Dockstrada]

After going to Newnes for the weekend and getting my butt kicked by a busted up Hylux with a front locker , I'm now after lockers for my 2008 Puma can anyone make a brand suggestion. Should I go for just front or both front and rear ?
.

[Drover]

Hey Dock,

General rule is rear first.

I recently bought the new HDP38 with locker centre from Ashcroft's.

Solves all the issues with the stock P38, pinion bearing spacing etc.

I bought mine as complete bolt in centre fully set up at Ashcroft's.

Just about to order the front rover diff. Again it will be a full bolt in centre.

Yeah you need to through a couple of dollars at it but it the best upgrade available.

[n plus one]

Hey Dock,

General rule is rear first.

I recently bought the new HDP38 with locker centre from Ashcroft's.

Solves all the issues with the stock P38, pinion bearing spacing etc.

I bought mine as complete bolt in centre fully set up at Ashcroft's.

Just about to order the front rover diff. Again it will be a full bolt in centre.

Yeah you need to through a couple of dollars at it but it the best upgrade available.

Yeah, in my view this is probably the best locker option for a Puma - solves a bunch of issues in one stroke.

I've been rolling around with an Aschcroft ATB in the front of my Puma for a while now - it's a good option and I (hope) will match well with an Ashcroft rear locker.

Drover - did you buy local or direct? Any issues? I want to do my rear diff before i go to the Cape this year but still have a few doubts about the Ashcroft rear conversion (mostly in terms of noise).

[Drover]

Yeah, in my view this is probably the best locker option for a Puma - solves a bunch of issues in one stroke.

I've been rolling around with an Aschcroft ATB in the front of my Puma for a while now - it's a good option and I (hope) will match well with an Ashcroft rear locker.

Drover - did you buy local or direct? Any issues? I want to do my rear diff before i go to the Cape this year but still have a few doubts about the Ashcroft rear conversion (mostly in terms of noise).

I bought direct from Ashcroft's, as I have done in the past, very easy to deal with and to the door in under a week.

I was lucky mine was nice and quite from the start, others had some noise issues. I understand that all the issues have now been sorted.

I have not had any probs, other than a pinion seal that was getting a little wet but not leaking.

The locker works a treat, engages and disengages with out issue.

No problem in recommending the product and Ahcroft's as a whole.

[Dockstrada]

Hey Dock,

General rule is rear first.

I recently bought the new HDP38 with locker centre from Ashcroft's.

Solves all the issues with the stock P38, pinion bearing spacing etc.

I bought mine as complete bolt in centre fully set up at Ashcroft's.

Just about to order the front rover diff. Again it will be a full bolt in centre.

Yeah you need to through a couple of dollars at it but it the best upgrade available.


So if I was to order the same complete bolt in centre fully set up, what would I order from Ashcroft for front and for rear ?
What was the cost ?

[Drover]

HDP38
- new casting
- new HD Gears
- new air locker
- full assembled. = £1350

Front (As above). = £840

For the rear diff you need to have prop shaft shortened by 75mm.

[ProjectDirector]

Has anyone had any experience with this lockers.

[MLD]

Has anyone had any experience with this lockers.

I fitted one to the front of a 130. Yet to use it in anger. I had a problem with mine at first with it self engaging because of a lazy spring that allowed the dog to engage or more accurately didn't provide enough resistance to keep the dog disengaged when the power was cut to the magnet. It would drive normal for a few hundred metres than engage without warning. I live in an area with bendy roads so it was interesting in a very scary way. It was a problem with the early development E-lockers that was meant to be fixed. Mechanic and Harrop replaced it without question. Seems all good now.

No reports from the mechanic (Opp Lock) of known failures. I'm certain it will outperform what I demand of it. Given the locker options on the market I wouldn't have bought it if I had any concerns for quality.

Mum's partner has a set in his Landcruiser that was used constantly up the Cape. He hasn't had any problems and is happy with them.

I don't want my experience to be a stain on the locker's reputation and i fully appreciate that manufacturing standards can throw anomalies from time to time, i just so happened to catch it. The marker of a product sometimes is not whether it works but whether the manufacturer stands by its word and warranty when something goes wrong. They did on this occasion so 2 thumbs up for Opp Lock and Harrop. That said, you still want it to work as intended.

As for the HDP38 Ashcroft are making them only in the 3.54 ratio (for the time being I was told). Fine if you are sticking with the OEM tyre size or even the 33", 3.54 is too tall for a larger than 33" tyre.

Don't forget to budget for upgraded axles and flanges (and CV's if you bolt one in the front). Lockers are a F........ expensive exercise.

MLD

[ProjectDirector]

I fitted one to the front of a 130. Yet to use it in anger. I had a problem with mine at first with it self engaging because of a lazy spring that allowed the dog to engage or more accurately didn't provide enough resistance to keep the dog disengaged when the power was cut to the magnet. It would drive normal for a few hundred metres than engage without warning. I live in an area with bendy roads so it was interesting in a very scary way. It was a problem with the early development E-lockers that was meant to be fixed. Mechanic and Harrop replaced it without question. Seems all good now.



No reports from the mechanic (Opp Lock) of known failures. I'm certain it will outperform what I demand of it. Given the locker options on the market I wouldn't have bought it if I had any concerns for quality.



Mum's partner has a set in his Landcruiser that was used constantly up the Cape. He hasn't had any problems and is happy with them.



I don't want my experience to be a stain on the locker's reputation and i fully appreciate that manufacturing standards can throw anomalies from time to time, i just so happened to catch it. The marker of a product sometimes is not whether it works but whether the manufacturer stands by its word and warranty when something goes wrong. They did on this occasion so 2 thumbs up for Opp Lock and Harrop. That said, you still want it to work as intended.



As for the HDP38 Ashcroft are making them only in the 3.54 ratio (for the time being I was told). Fine if you are sticking with the OEM tyre size or even the 33", 3.54 is too tall for a larger than 33" tyre.



Don't forget to budget for upgraded axles and flanges (and CV's if you bolt one in the front). Lockers are a F........ expensive exercise.



MLD


Thanks for your reply and your experience. I am at this stage doing research and learning more about lockers.
Currently my traction control is ok but on a few occasions didn't work very well and got stuck, I winched myself out anyway.
Trying to find advantages between air and electromagnetic so, I still have some ground to cover.
The other concern I have, my car is hardly 12 months old and suspect I will void warranty.

[Sandgroper]

Lockers will definitely void your warranty, I asked my landrover dealer that very question as I was interested in fitting a rear locker and he said wait till it's out of warranty first or you will void the warranty.

[RVR110]

Since it's a 2008 Puma it would have been out of warranty for a few years now.

Have a look at the Harrop e Locker (http://www.harrop.com.au/4wd_detail.php?prod=99-ELKR11301). Much neater than air lockers as there's no compressor to worry about. Quieter too. Each locker draws 4 amps when in use. I've had some experience with an eLocker and have been happy with it. I've never been a fan of air lockers - too many stories about oil blow back from the breather tubes, plus there's more components that can potentially fail.

[Michael2]

I've seen good results with the Tru Tracks (front & rear on Defenders and Discos). For the price of fancier stuff, you can get front and rear Tru Tracks, and being Rover diffs, you can fit them yourself.

I've got front & rear ARB Air Lockers, which have let me down as many times as they've helped me, (dislodged air line, fuse, compressor issues).

[ProjectDirector]

Since it's a 2008 Puma it would have been out of warranty for a few years now.

Have a look at the Harrop e Locker (http://www.harrop.com.au/4wd_detail.php?prod=99-ELKR11301). Much neater than air lockers as there's no compressor to worry about. Quieter too. Each locker draws 4 amps when in use. I've had some experience with an eLocker and have been happy with it. I've never been a fan of air lockers - too many stories about oil blow back from the breather tubes, plus there's more components that can potentially fail.


Mine is 2013 model so it will void warrantee and yes it is the Harrop I have been investigating. Good to hear your feedback. As you know the puma doesn't have much room for compressor so e locker would be preferable

Cheers

[ProjectDirector]

I've seen good results with the Tru Tracks (front & rear on Defenders and Discos). For the price of fancier stuff, you can get front and rear Tru Tracks, and being Rover diffs, you can fit them yourself.



I've got front & rear ARB Air Lockers, which have let me down as many times as they've helped me, (dislodged air line, fuse, compressor issues).


Tru tracks, well I haven't yet come across so I will look into them

[RVR110]

Be aware that Truetracs are limited slip diffs, not lockers. More info here (http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Automotive/DifferentialsLockingDifferentials/PCT_317264).

[dullbird]

and I dont know if they have a locker for the puma yet do they?

[n plus one]

Fitting lockers doesn't void your warranty - dealers can't do that, they have to be able to show that the locker caused the failure. The biggest issue is that, in practical terms, this typically shifts the burden of proof to the owner, particularly given some dealers woeful attitude.

Be an interesting insurance claim if a failed front locker caused an accident, I reckon :D

[RVR110]

and I dont know if they have a locker for the puma yet do they?Harrop have front & rear lockers currently available for the Puma.

[dullbird]

Harrop have front & rear lockers currently available for the Puma.

im talking about Eaton tru tracks and full lockers. they fit the front because thats standard Rover I thought but I didnt think they had anything to fit the p38 rover type rear

[tonic]

Harrop now make the e-locker for Lsnd Rover too. Love this concept. No hoses, no compressor etc, just a wire. I like the detroit locker too but will go with manual now that the e-locker is available. Just have do lots of saving.

[ProjectDirector]

I suppose I have more time to research but i think e lockers are my preference.
Now as MLD noted that they engaged while driving that worries me a bit. Just thinking if air lockers will be safe because you need to provide air to engage.

[MLD]

im talking about Eaton tru tracks and full lockers. they fit the front because thats standard Rover I thought but I didnt think they had anything to fit the p38 rover type rear

Lou, Harrop have an e-locker for the Salisbury, P38 and rover diff. I went through the process a month ago when I contemplated buying a 130 Salisbury to fit a rear e-locker. I opted for the swap from the 110 because of cost.

I'm not sure about the tru-trac for the P38 but I'd be surprised they didn't develop one. They have the sizing for the e-locker and there is a market in the US in the P38 RR.

ProjectDirector. I warned you against taking my experience as a reflection of the product. Mine was an anomaly. Furthermore if you find your locker faulty it will be evident from the outset and Harrop will replace it without question. I only mentioned it so people can identify the problem and act to remedy it.

The cause of the fault (lazy spring) would allow the same thing to happen in an air locker. What was happening is the hydraulic pressure when the oil was cold pushed against the dog engaging the locker. The spring didn't have the resistance to push it back out. The ARB relies on a spring to push the dog from its engagement so a lazy spring could give the same effect in an air locker.

If you want to save a few bucks consider a ATB/tru-trac for the front and a locker or ATB for the rear. The ATB will work well with your TC. Having had a 110 locked in the rear and ATB in the front you can go a long way before getting stuck. That said there are times you will get stuck no matter what you have in your arsenal. An ATB will not ever lock up so you will never have that fear.

MLD

[ProjectDirector]

Lou, Harrop have an e-locker for the Salisbury, P38 and rover diff. I went through the process a month ago when I contemplated buying a 130 Salisbury to fit a rear e-locker. I opted for the swap from the 110 because of cost.



I'm not sure about the tru-trac for the P38 but I'd be surprised they didn't develop one. They have the sizing for the e-locker and there is a market in the US in the P38 RR.



ProjectDirector. I warned you against taking my experience as a reflection of the product. Mine was an anomaly. Furthermore if you find your locker faulty it will be evident from the outset and Harrop will replace it without question. I only mentioned it so people can identify the problem and act to remedy it.



The cause of the fault (lazy spring) would allow the same thing to happen in an air locker. What was happening is the hydraulic pressure when the oil was cold pushed against the dog engaging the locker. The spring didn't have the resistance to push it back out. The ARB relies on a spring to push the dog from its engagement so a lazy spring could give the same effect in an air locker.



If you want to save a few bucks consider a ATB/tru-trac for the front and a locker or ATB for the rear. The ATB will work well with your TC. Having had a 110 locked in the rear and ATB in the front you can go a long way before getting stuck. That said there are times you will get stuck no matter what you have in your arsenal. An ATB will not ever lock up so you will never have that fear.



MLD


Thanks MLD y
You have now cleared the air. I am novice when it comes to lockers and am now learning a bit more. I have some time to save for them and want to put the best product so I can get ready for an expedition with my brother in law up in the Pilbara region (long way from Melbourne). As you know 4wds are a big money pit and and trying to control myself, I will only spend money where it is necessary. What is ATB by the way?

[rar110]

I have a Trutrac on the front and no locker on the back. It's been great for sand and bush driving. A locker is required for steep hill climbs.

[n plus one]

Thanks MLD y
You have now cleared the air. I am novice when it comes to lockers and am now learning a bit more. I have some time to save for them and want to put the best product so I can get ready for an expedition with my brother in law up in the Pilbara region (long way from Melbourne). As you know 4wds are a big money pit and and trying to control myself, I will only spend money where it is necessary. What is ATB by the way?

ATB = automatic torque biasing diff = basically an LSD but through an arrangement of gears rather than the traditional clutch pack configuration.

I've got one in the front of my 110 Puma - works well and works all the time (as opposed to an air actuated locker which only works when you press the button) but isn't the equal of a full locker once you get wheels in the air.

For me an ATB front and a air locking rear seems to be the right balance - but I'm still waiting on the rear locker for my current rig (it's on the 'to do' list for the Cape).

[ProjectDirector]

Many thanks guys, good to learn from your experiences

[MLD]

If you put in ATB in the front you can get away with the standard CV's and axles. If you lock the front you have the additional cost of HD CV's, axles and flanges. I'd budget $3,700 to $3,800 (fitted) for a front e-locker, HD CV's and HD axles, flanges. Not much cheaper for the air locker when you include the compressor. Budget $2,800 for a rear e-locker with axles and flanges (fitted). You can fit an ATB for $1,000 to $1,100 and it's set and forget. I'm not a fan of detroit lockers but that is an option for the rear. Still need axles and flanges (say $800 ish).

All depends on what type of driving you do. I drove the hardest of the tracks up Cape York without wishing for more traction aids with the ATB/rear locker. Sometimes taking a different line is all that is required.

MLD

[ProjectDirector]

If you put in ATB in the front you can get away with the standard CV's and axles. If you lock the front you have the additional cost of HD CV's, axles and flanges. I'd budget $3,700 to $3,800 (fitted) for a front e-locker, HD CV's and HD axles, flanges. Not much cheaper for the air locker when you include the compressor. Budget $2,800 for a rear e-locker with axles and flanges (fitted). You can fit an ATB for $1,000 to $1,100 and it's set and forget. I'm not a fan of detroit lockers but that is an option for the rear. Still need axles and flanges (say $800 ish).

All depends on what type of driving you do. I drove the hardest of the tracks up Cape York without wishing for more traction aids with the ATB/rear locker. Sometimes taking a different line is all that is required.

MLD
Interesting point of view MLD.
Even with my standard hilux I had I did some crazy things but now I bought the Defender not for extreme work but to do touring and seeing more of Australia. Yes I did try some hard stuff only because my sons wanted to have fun for the last 10 months but that is where it ends because I don't want to destroy it and keep throwing money fixing it.
I am only looking at lockers for some extra flexibility and not to put the vehicle under a lot of stress.


Cheers

[Lennie_4]

Just my 2 cents worth. Have had 2 previous vehicles with air lockers and had issues ranging from failed I rings to air lobes pulled out. Am currently on my 2nd vehicle with e-lockers and have a single rear locker on a 2010 110 wagon. Nil failures to report and I am happy that should the activation wire be broken it can be quickly be repaired trackside without leaving me stranded. This is just my experience but I can certainly recommend the product and confirm its availability on p38 diffs.

[rutmutt]

My Deefer is at Opposite lock as we speak having E-lockers fitted for a trip to cape in June. We got lockers as we are pulling a trailer and wanted the extra confidence without damaging the truck.

As has been stated earlier, fitting lockers only voids the warranty on the diffs and the dealers have to prove that the locker has damaged anything else (or reverse proof by us) so this should just about limit it to the axles and drive shafts. Everything else is still covered.

Harrod-eaton offer a 3yr warranty on the e-locker upto 33" tyres. (i 95% sure) and Opposite Lock offer a 2yr warranty on all the work and items. but we'll have to wait and see if thats worth the paper it written on.

If you're worried about the lockers engaging while highway driving i would suggest fitting an isolating switch somewhere out of the way. so you would have to unisolate and then activate the lockers. I have heard a few stories about e-lockers engaging by themselves, generally due to the diff oil being too thick.

[ProjectDirector]

My Deefer is at Opposite lock as we speak having E-lockers fitted for a trip to cape in June. We got lockers as we are pulling a trailer and wanted the extra confidence without damaging the truck.



As has been stated earlier, fitting lockers only voids the warranty on the diffs and the dealers have to prove that the locker has damaged anything else (or reverse proof by us) so this should just about limit it to the axles and drive shafts. Everything else is still covered.



Harrod-eaton offer a 3yr warranty on the e-locker upto 33" tyres. (i 95% sure) and Opposite Lock offer a 2yr warranty on all the work and items. but we'll have to wait and see if thats worth the paper it written on.



If you're worried about the lockers engaging while highway driving i would suggest fitting an isolating switch somewhere out of the way. so you would have to unisolate and then activate the lockers. I have heard a few stories about e-lockers engaging by themselves, generally due to the diff oil being too thick.


If you don't mind asking what is the cost in doing your lockers and is it for front and back.

In terms of switch I could always use switches with interlocks

[rutmutt]

I'm doing front and rear fitted by OL Newcastle. I'll get some coin change from $4000. They retail at 1485 each.. the rest is fitting.

[ProjectDirector]

I'm doing front and rear fitted by OL Newcastle. I'll get some coin change from $4000. They retail at 1485 each.. the rest is fitting.


Well that is a big expense and I suppose that will include replacing axles etc with HD.
Thanks for sharing this info.
Cheers

[isuzurover]

... I suppose that will include replacing axles etc with HD.
...

I doubt it.

[ProjectDirector]

I doubt it.


Well, judging from what MLD said it could be closer to $7k if not more.
I don't think I will be spending this sort of dough, ATB may be the option.
I have plenty of time to work this out, my next priority is roof rack and fridge/2nd battery.

[isuzurover]

Well, judging from what MLD said it could be closer to $7k if not more.
I don't think I will be spending this sort of dough, ATB may be the option.
I have plenty of time to work this out, my next priority is roof rack and fridge/2nd battery.

HD axles are around $500/pr and can be installed easily in about 30 mins per corner for the rear and about 3 hrs per corner for the front.

[noogie]

HDP38
- new casting
- new HD Gears
- new air locker
- full assembled. = £1350

Front (As above). = £840

For the rear diff you need to have prop shaft shortened by 75mm.
Hey Drover

Didn't you also have the diff pegged?
Now that is well worth doing when rebuilding the diff IMO.

[Drover]

Hey Drover

Didn't you also have the diff pegged?
Now that is well worth doing when rebuilding the diff IMO.

Front was pegged, as recommended by Dave Ashcroft. The rear is there fully redesigned/manufactured unit and was not pegged.

Cheers

[uninformed]

Nothing wrong with pegging, but its not neccesary for every built diff.

[tonic]

I'm doing front and rear fitted by OL Newcastle. I'll get some coin change from $4000. They retail at 1485 each.. the rest is fitting.



So you would have a p38 rear end I take it, the best I have been offered on the gold coast was $1650 for front and $2200 for the rear Salisbury, not including fitting.

[chopper]

Detroit locker

[frantic]

Ditto for Detroit on rear with Salisbury, Tonic and hy-Tuff to be sure. Will cost almost half of what a ARB does if you buy from USA. About 6-700 including shipping. Lucky 8 ship at a good price.

[Ancient Mariner]

Detroit Fit and forget:D

[uninformed]

what about Ashcroft ATB?

[Ancient Mariner]

Not a Locker

[RVR110]

Detroit Fit and forget:DApart from the odd "clunk" now and again
:wasntme:

[dullbird]

Apart from the odd "clunk" now and again
:wasntme:

mine has never clunked you wouldn't even know it was fitted unless you were told