I need to make an injection pump locking tool

[Jode]

as the prices for these (around £125 http://images.landrovernet.com/smilies/eek.gif) are driving me to distraction. Can anyone send me a drawing or scanned picture of the retaining plate (ERR2216)? I've googled this without result.

If you have an ERR2216 laying about your workshop plus access to a scanner, perhaps you would kindly place it face down on your scanner, scan it, and then indicate the measured distance between the centres of two of its holes. I could then use your image plus measurement to faschion a locking tool at rather less than the LR tool costs!

Thanks.

[Blknight.aus]

im a little confused. the cam retaining plate has nothing to do with timing the pump.....

the part number is the cam shaft retaining plate.. (quick google) you can just trace it up by centering a card on the cam cutting the relief for the first lip on the front of the cam and then cutting the outside to suit the block and then drill it to match. at anyrate they can be had for about $5-10 from EB or various UK suppliers + shipping. from memory its about 5mm in thickness and you need to surface finish the camshaft side.

heres a site with a break down image on ithttp://landrover.shukersparts.co.uk/plate-camshaft-pulley-retaining-err2216.html


given that you're chasing a tdi300 cam retainer Im assuming you need the timing tool for doing the timing belt... and not the pump to pully boss aligning tools

check http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/133800-tdi300-timing-belt.html
down the bottom has what you need to know for the timing pins.

the cam wheel only fits the cam shaft in one position and it has timing marks on the wheel there is a female threaded riser with a ridge on it that is the line up post for the cam wheel to time the camshaft. (picture #3 in post #4 of the above link)

post # 9 has a couple of helpful hints if you cant get to see straight onto the cam wheels because its still installed and you have the front of the vehicle still in one piece.

Hope thats what you were after.

[roverrescue]

I assume you dont mean this LR special tool:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/55098-300tdi-injection-pump-retaining-tool-lrt-12-045-a.html

Steve

[Jode]

I assume you dont mean this LR special tool:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/55098-300tdi-injection-pump-retaining-tool-lrt-12-045-a.html

Steve
Steve -
That article is what got me going in this direction. I need to remove the dip, and it seems like less work to fix the dip pulley to the front timing case by using the LR tool than having to remove the belt etc. - but the LR tool costs silly money. So I figured if someone had one of these

74236

laying on their workbench and would lay it on their scanner and scan it, a PDF of that would be a true-scale piccie of the face of the dip pulley timing slot/bolt locations. It should be an easy matter to make up a tool from that pattern.

[Jode]

im a little confused. the cam retaining plate has nothing to do with timing the pump.....

the part number is the cam shaft retaining plate.. (quick google) you can just trace it up by centering a card on the cam cutting the relief for the first lip on the front of the cam and then cutting the outside to suit the block and then drill it to match. at anyrate they can be had for about $5-10 from EB or various UK suppliers + shipping. from memory its about 5mm in thickness and you need to surface finish the camshaft side.

heres a site with a break down image on ithttp://landrover.shukersparts.co.uk/plate-camshaft-pulley-retaining-err2216.html


given that you're chasing a tdi300 cam retainer Im assuming you need the timing tool for doing the timing belt... and not the pump to pully boss aligning tools

check http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/133800-tdi300-timing-belt.html
down the bottom has what you need to know for the timing pins.

the cam wheel only fits the cam shaft in one position and it has timing marks on the wheel there is a female threaded riser with a ridge on it that is the line up post for the cam wheel to time the camshaft. (picture #3 in post #4 of the above link)

post # 9 has a couple of helpful hints if you cant get to see straight onto the cam wheels because its still installed and you have the front of the vehicle still in one piece.

Hope thats what you were after.
Dave -
My post wasn't very clear - what I want to do is make up a replacement for this LR tool:

74237

I can buy the retaining plate for about £1.50 from LR Direct (from whom I'm about to other some other bits) but it would be quicker if someone had one laying about that they were willing to lay on their scanner and scan. The retaining plate piccie will give me the correct locations for the timing tool cut-out as well as the bolt positions; then I'll just need to cut out a suitable size of something flat (I'm thinking of using an old CD case), glue (since I'm thinking plastic, I might be able to use a bit of PVC pipe) a spacer to its back, measuring the offset from the face of the timing cover to the face of the retaining plate in-situ, and get some longer bolts to fit it to the dip pulley.

[roverrescue]

I would be hesitant to use a CD case for the retaining plate.
Once the FIP (fuel injection pump) is removed the plate and bolts are resisting the load of the timing belt.

Ill be out at the shed this arvo - I can get some measuremnts for you but you do realise that you can pull that plate off your engine and use it as your own template. This is what I did?

S

[Jode]

I would be hesitant to use a CD case for the retaining plate.
Once the FIP (fuel injection pump) is removed the plate and bolts are resisting the load of the timing belt.

Ill be out at the shed this arvo - I can get some measuremnts for you but you do realise that you can pull that plate off your engine and use it as your own template. This is what I did?

S
There's a thought. So I should slide in the timing tool, restrain the dip shaft nut and loosen the three plate keeper bolts, then remove the keeper bolts plus plate - correct?

[roverrescue]

Correct
set TDC and lock at flywheel
slide in locking pin to fuel pump (this needs to be a round bar with no lip as it will slide through the pulley and out the back) First time I did the job I used an 11/32 drill bit. Since then I have machined up a 316L stainless rod of appropriate diameter.

Remove three M10 bolts in the retaining plate

voila - you have a template

Use something substantial to make the locking plate it will be holding belt tension and pulley location (think 3-5mm steel or 6-10mm Ally) - ensure you drill the timing hole round but make the other two holes slotted as your timing location will vary by the slots on the plate depending on timing.
Slide locking plate over the pump locking pin and bolt two of the M10s to the pulley.

Now you are good to unbolt and then slide the pump out

S

[Jode]

Correct
set TDC and lock at flywheel
slide in locking pin to fuel pump (this needs to be a round bar with no lip as it will slide through the pulley and out the back) First time I did the job I used an 11/32 drill bit. Since then I have machined up a 316L stainless rod of appropriate diameter.

Remove three M10 bolts in the retaining plate

voila - you have a template

Use something substantial to make the locking plate it will be holding belt tension and pulley location (think 3-5mm steel or 6-10mm Ally) - ensure you drill the timing hole round but make the other two holes slotted as your timing location will vary by the slots on the plate depending on timing.
Slide locking plate over the pump locking pin and bolt two of the M10s to the pulley.

Now you are good to unbolt and then slide the pump out

S
Thanks, Steve, that'll be my weekend project as it's unlikely that I'll get a chance during the week. But I need to pull the pump off and take it back to the bloke that rebuilt it (actually, I rebuilt it but ended up putting the stator ring upside-down, so instead of having the local "expert" just set the timing he ended up stripping it and flipping the stator right-way-round), as the engine is smoking terribly! It's not stem seals and it's not timing, as I've done the timing twice and also checked the seals. So it must be the pump.

[roverrescue]

"the engine is smoking terribly!"

At what point is it smoking terribly - idle on full boost
before yanking the IP is it worth checking the simple things like aneroid first?

Is your timing set from the pin or using the more accurate plunger depth measurement at TDC?

Not saying it isnt a pooched pump re-build but worth checking things on engine first?

Steve

[Jode]

Smokes at idle, after extreme effort to get the diesel to combust. Uneven as all get-out, and will only really go under turbo boost. Smokes heavily on overrun, but I pulled each valve spring and the stem seals are fine (should be, they're brand new). I checked the belt timing twice and it's spot-on. All four injectors were rebuilt by the same guy who set up the dip, so it seems most likely the pump timing is off. The lr wsm states 1.35mm at tdc (IIRC - I wrote it down somewhere...), so I intend pulling the pump off, taking it back for the guy to recheck; and once he's done with it I'm taking it to another crowd for a second opinion, as it's a pain in the backside to keep fiddling with this. I drove it about 150km to run it in, hoping that the thing would even out, but that wasn't to be.

[Blknight.aus]

do you have a DTI that can use to check the plunger lift?

[roverrescue]

The lr wsm states 1.35mm at tdc (IIRC - I wrote it down somewhere...), so I intend pulling the pump off, taking it back for the guy to recheck

Jode,
You CANNOT check the plunger lift with the IP on the bench.
Your numbers are correct and it relates to the actual movement of the plunger when the cylinder is at TDC. The plunger lift is measured by removing the centre cap between the fuel lines.
The easiest is to use a dial indicator (DTI) with a small plunger, then the DTI housing threads onto the injection pump port (M10x1.0) I made up a jigger for my dial indicator - BUT I believe Toyota diesel DTI can be used with no mods needed. Now you just roll the engine over on the crank (pop out the glowies to make it easy)

The lift measurement is pretty easy to ascertain once you have frigged around doing all the above. As the crank turns the DTi will just sit still then as engine approaches TDC for each pot the gauge will spike up and then down - it is essentially the shot of fuel being given to each fuel pipe.

The above cannot be done with the pump on the bench as the timing is a function of piston location which is not set by the IP.

Your problems do seem to be possible timing related however. Does a standard timing pin slide easily into the IP when the crank flywheel slot is set to TDC?

I think you are better off removing the timing case cover and ensuring that all is well inside and the engine is timed perfectly before pulling the IP off.

Steve

[roverrescue]

Hmmm,
Just thinking, if it "runs well at boost" but is smokey off boost
might be worth checking over the aneroid settings
Not discounting timing but the above symptoms could also be too much fuel off boost?
Do you have EGT & boost gauges by any chance?

Steve

[Blknight.aus]

Hmmm,
Just thinking, if it "runs well at boost" but is smokey off boost
might be worth checking over the aneroid settings
Not discounting timing but the above symptoms could also be too much fuel off boost?
Do you have EGT & boost gauges by any chance?

Steve

Im thinking he might be late injecting and over wound on the fuel screw/aneroid.

[Jode]

Steve and Dave -
1. Firstly, when I set the "belt" timing, I had the timing cover off and the rad out. I've recently done this twice - firstly when completing the reassembly after the engine rebuild, and secondly in response to all the smoke - again dropped the rad to ensure clear views to the crank, cam and timing gear marks. It was reasonable to look at belt timing being out being the cause of the smoking. So I'm very confident that the belt timing is spot-on.

2. Secondly, what is "aneroid"? I've checked all my dictionaires wihtout success, and the Bosch VE manual that I downloaded off the net doesn't have it in its text, either. Dave, I gather from your response that this relates to the fuel screw setting - I presume you are not referring to the idle screws but to the full load adjusting screw that sits above the fuel cut-off switch - correct? Or are you refering to the governor adjustment screw?

3. Unfortunately I have neither a boost or EGT gauge, but I do have a DTI; don't know if I can rig an adapter up to check the pump lift but will have a look-see today. Based on Steve's comments, I should leave the pump in and drive it to the pump guy for him to check the lift in-situ. I gather that by adjusting this timing screw the pressure of the hi-pressure chamber is either increased or decreased in response to a corresponding increase or decrease in the volume of the hi-pressure chamber in the distributor head; and consequently, as the injectors pop in response to specific pressures, either advance or retard the fuel delivery - correct?

[Blknight.aus]

the aneroid is the boost compensation device.

if its not hooked up setup and working correctly a less than stellar pump guy will get the fuel delivery right by winding up the max fuel screw. this produces masses of smoke while off boost.

as you may be about to find out just because the cam and pump wheels are in the right place it doesnt mean that the pump is matched to the wheel correctly. you can also run afowl of getting the timing out a bit if you have the slack in the belt in the wrong spot and then do the tensioner up, as you tighten up the belt the slack will let the wheels move slightly in relation to the crank and if your engine is "highly strung" that will be enough to make smoke.

theres 4 screw settings on the pump you can play with the one you shouldnt ever touch is the governoer set screw.

the two on the top that press directly onto the throttle arm are your low and high idle speed settings and the last one is the max fuel delivery screw (roughly named)

there are 3 other settigns you can play with.

on the top of the pump is a housing that is held down with 4 screw, has an air line on it that runs to the turbo side of the engine and has an anti tamper cover.
. under this is a diaphragm which is used to push a plunger against engine boost and controls the fuel set postion for varying conditions of boost.

Straight up under the anti tamper cover is the start position set screw. Wind it in for more fuel and out for less at idle I usually adjust this last to fine tune the idle with the engine warm.

with the cover removed you will find the diaphragm and its got a driving plate with a small hole in it for position marking reasons. If you pull it out you will see the plunger is an off set taper that will push against a plunger pin and move it to various positions. simply rotate the whole punger and diaphragm assembly to change how agressively the pump adds fuel as the boost comes up.

with the diaphragm assembly removed look at the bottom of the body there is a toothed spring seat on a threaded section of the body. this pushes back against the boost pressure. wind it up to increase the resistance to boost slowing the fuel ramp rate and wind it down to increase it.

[roverrescue]

In response.
1/ if you set timing by sliding a bolt/gauge through the front of the IP you will never actually be spot on - just close enough as to be okay. The only way to spot on time a 300tdi is via setting the plunger lift.

2/Aneroid or Boost Compensator is the jigger on the top of the IP with a boost line running around to the turbo. It increases fuel delivery as boost pressure increases. This is so the engine doesnt smoke excessively off boost. The eccentric cone beneath the actual aneroiddiaphragm adjust fuel delivery rate as function of changing boost conditions. Someplace on the web is a great tuning article that explains it better than I can. I have it as PDF if you cannot find it (pm me) but search along the lines of "300tdi Bosch VE injector pump tuning"

3/ There is no timing screw as a part of the plunger lift. You simple adjust the drive plate and pulley at the front of the IP to effectively advance or retard the pump relative to the belt (fixed at TDC)

Daves suggestion which is likely spot on is that the primary fuel delivery screw has been increased since rebuild (hopefully it is still safety wired from factory) but your symptoms may suggest it has been adjusted. And then the boost compensator (aneroid) is pooched such that it is over fueling in low boost conditions. I would argue it is very hard to tune a 300 without boost and EGTs but Im sure someone will claim to have mojo to do it. If your primary fuel delivery screw has been altered you will have some fun setting it without an EGT.

I think you either need to do a lot of reading on 300 tuning or find someone who knows what they are doing. In my opinion unless your tuner is putting a temporary EGT in place while tuning you should maybe find another diesel tech????

Steve

[Jode]

In response.
1/ if you set timing by sliding a bolt/gauge through the front of the IP you will never actually be spot on - just close enough as to be okay. The only way to spot on time a 300tdi is via setting the plunger lift.

2/Aneroid or Boost Compensator is the jigger on the top of the IP with a boost line running around to the turbo. It increases fuel delivery as boost pressure increases. This is so the engine doesnt smoke excessively off boost. The eccentric cone beneath the actual aneroiddiaphragm adjust fuel delivery rate as function of changing boost conditions. Someplace on the web is a great tuning article that explains it better than I can. I have it as PDF if you cannot find it (pm me) but search along the lines of "300tdi Bosch VE injector pump tuning"

3/ There is no timing screw as a part of the plunger lift. You simple adjust the drive plate and pulley at the front of the IP to effectively advance or retard the pump relative to the belt (fixed at TDC)

Daves suggestion which is likely spot on is that the primary fuel delivery screw has been increased since rebuild (hopefully it is still safety wired from factory) but your symptoms may suggest it has been adjusted. And then the boost compensator (aneroid) is pooched such that it is over fueling in low boost conditions. I would argue it is very hard to tune a 300 without boost and EGTs but Im sure someone will claim to have mojo to do it. If your primary fuel delivery screw has been altered you will have some fun setting it without an EGT.

I think you either need to do a lot of reading on 300 tuning or find someone who knows what they are doing. In my opinion unless your tuner is putting a temporary EGT in place while tuning you should maybe find another diesel tech????

Steve
Steve -
Thanks for the offer of the article on adjusting the manifold pressure compensator (what the Bosch manual calls the aneroid), hiowever I downloaded a copy some time back. I haven't done any fiddling with that yet as I wanted to get the pump working in standard setting before doing further adjustment.

I get your point that the pump can't be calibrated correctly unless it is fit to the vehicle, as it must be set to TDC - and that's a relationship within the engine itself and not something theoretical that can be fully set on the bench.

Based on your advice as well as Dave's, I've decided to drive the landie to my pump guy for a more detailed discussion of how he set it up - and more to the point, a discussion on what he intends to do to get it running properly. If he's fafffed about with the max fuel screw or aneroid, then he needs to adjust those with the pump on the engine to get it to behave the way it should.

[Jode]

the aneroid is the boost compensation device.

if its not hooked up setup and working correctly a less than stellar pump guy will get the fuel delivery right by winding up the max fuel screw. this produces masses of smoke while off boost.

as you may be about to find out just because the cam and pump wheels are in the right place it doesnt mean that the pump is matched to the wheel correctly. you can also run afowl of getting the timing out a bit if you have the slack in the belt in the wrong spot and then do the tensioner up, as you tighten up the belt the slack will let the wheels move slightly in relation to the crank and if your engine is "highly strung" that will be enough to make smoke.

theres 4 screw settings on the pump you can play with the one you shouldnt ever touch is the governoer set screw.

the two on the top that press directly onto the throttle arm are your low and high idle speed settings and the last one is the max fuel delivery screw (roughly named)

there are 3 other settigns you can play with.

on the top of the pump is a housing that is held down with 4 screw, has an air line on it that runs to the turbo side of the engine and has an anti tamper cover.
. under this is a diaphragm which is used to push a plunger against engine boost and controls the fuel set postion for varying conditions of boost.

Straight up under the anti tamper cover is the start position set screw. Wind it in for more fuel and out for less at idle I usually adjust this last to fine tune the idle with the engine warm.

with the cover removed you will find the diaphragm and its got a driving plate with a small hole in it for position marking reasons. If you pull it out you will see the plunger is an off set taper that will push against a plunger pin and move it to various positions. simply rotate the whole punger and diaphragm assembly to change how agressively the pump adds fuel as the boost comes up.

with the diaphragm assembly removed look at the bottom of the body there is a toothed spring seat on a threaded section of the body. this pushes back against the boost pressure. wind it up to increase the resistance to boost slowing the fuel ramp rate and wind it down to increase it.
Dave -
Thanks for the outline regarding what can and can't be adjusted on the pump. Your idea that the pump guy may have increased fueling via the max fuel screw seems like a real possibility as you suggested, what with all that smoke; as the amount of fuel delivered increases as the screw is turned in, it seems to me that it would be a good idea to back the screw off (anti-clockwise) to try to get rid of the excessive smoke. Then I think I'll need to see about getting my hands on an adaptor with probe so that I can check the lift myself, as well as perhaps a boost gauge and egt thermometer.

[Blknight.aus]

I'd be careful with doing that, the screw might be set right and the androids settings may be completely wrong. Or the pin that is driven by the android may also be stuck.

I would suggest as your first port of call finding out and making sure you understand how messing with the aneroid settings works, then back that off to the minimum settings and checking that it's not a case of somebthing keeping the android stuck in the full boost position while your having a look see and setting it back to minimum.

If it's working properly them the fault is most likely bad timing (late injection) and too much fuel. You night also find that the engine isn't breathi g properly until the turbo winds in. Which means you could have bent push rods a badly adjusted set of valves (won't be the first time I've seen a lash cap crack apart giving a valve clearance you could measure with a screwdriver instead of a deeper gauge) or even a collapses air filter

Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Forum Runner

[Jode]

I'd be careful with doing that, the screw might be set right and the androids settings may be completely wrong. Or the pin that is driven by the android may also be stuck.

I would suggest as your first port of call finding out and making sure you understand how messing with the aneroid settings works, then back that off to the minimum settings and checking that it's not a case of somebthing keeping the android stuck in the full boost position while your having a look see and setting it back to minimum.

If it's working properly them the fault is most likely bad timing (late injection) and too much fuel. You night also find that the engine isn't breathi g properly until the turbo winds in. Which means you could have bent push rods a badly adjusted set of valves (won't be the first time I've seen a lash cap crack apart giving a valve clearance you could measure with a screwdriver instead of a deeper gauge) or even a collapses air filter

Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Forum Runner
1. It's not likely a breathing issue - all the pushrods are fine (I pulled them out two weekends ago when I was checking the stem seals), and the valves are set to spec (this was one of the first things I checked when starting to try and diagnose the heavy smoke); I haven't checked the air filter but I'll turn it over less the filter and see if the smoke decreases.

2. I'll ask the pump guy if he's fiddled with the aneroid unit. If he has then I'll follow up on your lead (read up on how to set it back to "original" spec). If he hasn't, I'll mark the max fuel screw, loosen the lock nut and turn it back 1/2 turn at a time to see what happens with the smoke, keeping close track of the number of half-turns made. If no improvement then it would be a simple matter to set it back to "ol-smokey".

[Blknight.aus]

what work did he do on the pump?

Its exceedingly impossible to rebuild one of those pumps without messing up the settings for the engine its currently bolted to.

they can only be set to a basic spec but then require tuning to the specific engine. For example it may be a case of hes set it up to work on say a 3l volvo engine and not a 2.5l landrover one

not doubting your ability but If I had a dollar for every time something blindingly obvious had been missed and thousands of dollars worth of effort and parts had gone down the tube becasue everyone had assumed the simple stuff was already done and out of the way.....

[Jode]

what work did he do on the pump?

Its exceedingly impossible to rebuild one of those pumps without messing up the settings for the engine its currently bolted to.

they can only be set to a basic spec but then require tuning to the specific engine. For example it may be a case of hes set it up to work on say a 3l volvo engine and not a 2.5l landrover one

not doubting your ability but If I had a dollar for every time something blindingly obvious had been missed and thousands of dollars worth of effort and parts had gone down the tube becasue everyone had assumed the simple stuff was already done and out of the way.....
Point taken, Dave.

I re-read Ian Petersen's "Land Rover TDI Injectin Pump Tuning" article, and I take your point that the stroke pin or some such has "stuck" the aneroid cone in the fuel-rich position, which would cause excessive smoke at off-boost engine speeds. So I plan to remove the four screws and the boost compensator cover, mark the diaphram reference point, gently turn and remove the diaphragm and cone, and see if the stroke pin moves freely by pulling on the throttle cable. If it doesn't that could be the cause of the smoke, as you suggested; which, if that is the case, raises another issue - how to free up the pin, as the tear-down articles that I've found don't cover the aneroid module. But let's take one problem at a time....