which defender engine is the best, a LRM mag test

[bob10]

From the latest LRM mag, a test to determine what they think is the best engine. The engines;


200Tdi
300Tdi
Td5
TDci


They were scored on;
Performance
value
off-road
on-road
simplicity
bush mechanics
economy
authenticity
ease of mods
reliability


The winner, 300Tdi.
Scores;
200Tdi 88


300Tdi 90


Td5 72


Tdci 73


All reasonably close Bob

[Slunnie]

I wonder what basis they scored value and authenticity on, and if authenticity even makes a difference.

Also, why they had performance, and also on road and offroad.

Also why they had bush repairability and also simplicity.

I think this would be like 4wdoty. 4 contenders and probably 8 different "should have" winners according to the readers.

[Disco Muppet]

Not sure if LRM is a pommie mag or not, but if it's pommie the basis was probably judged by a bunch of farmers with peaked caps, pipes, and no teeth leaning against a pub wall going 'nooo I doon't like tha Tee-dee-five, too many lectrics, mah tooo hoondred tee-dee-eye gooos plenty fast enoof faw me milk roon and to see me mam, dooncha noo?"

However, in all seriousness

Performance - Hast to be Td5 or Tdci, because struggling to pull the skin or a wet pudding doesn't classify as performance.
value - NFI
off-road - Td5 lacks the low down grunt of the rest but can be sorted with a chip
on-road - sure ain't the 200 or 300
simplicity - 200
bush mechanics - 200
economy - they're all pretty economical but probably one of the tdis
authenticity - And wtf does this mean, do we count out the puma as it's a transit motor?
ease of mods - Besides playing with the fueling, exactly what can you do to the tdis? Td5 imho
reliability - they're all land rover engines, even the pumas are having a munch on headgaskets later in life, You could have any one of them **** on you in the middle of no-where

That's this biased Td5 fanboys view :D

[simmo]

Disco muppet, you should be test writer. I love it, what has authenticity got to do with pushing a car.

reliability? you covered that fairly:D

OMHO the Td-5 is probably the best allrounder, it's proven itself over time.

[DieselDan]

Not sure if LRM is a pommie mag or not, but if it's pommie the basis was probably judged by a bunch of farmers with peaked caps, pipes, and no teeth leaning against a pub wall going 'nooo I doon't like tha Tee-dee-five, too many lectrics, mah tooo hoondred tee-dee-eye gooos plenty fast enoof faw me milk roon and to see me mam, dooncha noo?"

.........

In my head that went from a west country Zummerzet accent, morphed into a southern US drawl at "mah tooo hoondred...." then into Essex/Cockney wankah at "fast enoof faw" and finally into the finest Queen's English at "dooncha noo".

Genius.

Good work Muppet!!!

[bob10]

Well, Land Rover Monthly is a Pommie mag., & the testers were;


Dave Phillips [ LRM Editor


Patrick Cruywagen [ features Editor]

Terry Hayward [ defender expert]


I have no idea as to their credentials to do the test. The test criteria were;


Performance power, torque & refinement


Value how much LR do you get for your money, & how quick
does it depreciate


off road how it performs in the rough


on road how it performs in the smooth


simplicity how easy it is to understand


bush mechanics can it be prepared in remote places


economy how cheap is it to run


authenticity is it fit to wear the green oval


ease of mods how easy is it to personalise


reliability will it break down


The Verdict;


" The defenders were driven by all of us, on & off road, & along a section of moderate to easy green lanes.
Votes were cast & counted- & the results came as bit of a surprise. The worthy winner was the 300Tdi, which edged it over the 200Tdi- no great shock there- but the Td5 lost narrowly to the TDci.


It's a great win for the 300Tdi defender, but there are no real losers. We'd be happy to have a defender-any defender- as our everyday wheels.


We're all heartbroken that next year- its 25th- will be the last full year of production for the evergreen defender. Says terry' if Mercedes can do it with the G wagon, then there is no reason why Land Rover could not do the same with the defender. It's an old design, but it's popular & it works.


Will its successor be as good ? we'll have to wait & see. But rest assured, we'll be the first to check it out & deliver our verdict! "


Can't wait, Bob

[Blknight.aus]

Authenticity in my book would cover you for sticking to the ethos of the landrover in general... as in it doesnt have to look good, go fast but it must be reliable, repairable with the minimum of tools, it must tolerate the very worst of operating conditions and keep on going even if its dying.

In which case all the engines mentioned are out

X00TDI's are out because of rubber timing belts
the TD5 is out because of the fuel pump and the fragile nature of the fuel and cooling system if neglected
the ford is out because of it cant have its fuel system primed without special tools and is limited in the quality of fuels it can run.

(and notice I didn't even have to pick on electronics)


So whats that leave you with..

I'd put forwards the suzi 3.9 but that was never in the defender, nor was the 2.25D....

but thats only if you want to count authenticity....

[jerryd]

[QUOTE=Disco Muppet;2160387]Not sure if LRM is a pommie mag or not, but if it's pommie the basis was probably judged by a bunch of farmers with peaked caps, pipes, and no teeth leaning against a pub wall going 'nooo I doon't like tha Tee-dee-five, too many lectrics, mah tooo hoondred tee-dee-eye gooos plenty fast enoof faw me milk roon and to see me mam, dooncha noo


You mean a couple of country yokels like these two ;)

The Two Ronnies - The Yokels - YouTube


ps I know where there is a blown TD5 motor needing a good home

[ramblingboy42]

by blown do you mean supercharged?

[jerryd]

by blown do you mean supercharged?

No it's kaput :D

[PAT303]

Authenticity in my book would cover you for sticking to the ethos of the landrover in general... as in it doesnt have to look good, go fast but it must be reliable, repairable with the minimum of tools, it must tolerate the very worst of operating conditions and keep on going even if its dying.

In which case all the engines mentioned are out

X00TDI's are out because of rubber timing belts
the TD5 is out because of the fuel pump and the fragile nature of the fuel and cooling system if neglected
the ford is out because of it cant have its fuel system primed without special tools and is limited in the quality of fuels it can run.

(and notice I didn't even have to pick on electronics)


So whats that leave you with..

I'd put forwards the suzi 3.9 but that was never in the defender, nor was the 2.25D....

but thats only if you want to count authenticity....

Just to give some balance,the Isuzu's are being replaced where I was working in the Pilbara because of unreliability,total lack of customer support,total lack of parts kept on the shelf and general poor quality. Pat

[PAT303]

Authenticity in my book would cover you for sticking to the ethos of the landrover in general... as in it doesnt have to look good, go fast but it must be reliable, repairable with the minimum of tools, it must tolerate the very worst of operating conditions and keep on going even if its dying.

In which case all the engines mentioned are out

X00TDI's are out because of rubber timing belts
the TD5 is out because of the fuel pump and the fragile nature of the fuel and cooling system if neglected
the ford is out because of it cant have its fuel system primed without special tools and is limited in the quality of fuels it can run.

(and notice I didn't even have to pick on electronics)


So whats that leave you with..

I'd put forwards the suzi 3.9 but that was never in the defender, nor was the 2.25D....

but thats only if you want to count authenticity....

Forgot to add,the timing belt issue with Tdi's was fixed a decade ago,the Td5 fuel pump is well known,if you get stuck it's your fault,to prime the ''fords'' fuel system needs only a compressor,you should carry one with you,but then again why are you fitting an empty filter which causes the problem in the first place?,all fuel systems will fail if neglected,ditto the cooling system,are you saying the Isuzu won't overheat if the rad is blocked?,don't know about the quality of fuel bit,my engines are diesel,I fill them with diesel???. Pat

[Tank]

Not sure if LRM is a pommie mag or not, but if it's pommie the basis was probably judged by a bunch of farmers with peaked caps, pipes, and no teeth leaning against a pub wall going 'nooo I doon't like tha Tee-dee-five, too many lectrics, mah tooo hoondred tee-dee-eye gooos plenty fast enoof faw me milk roon and to see me mam, dooncha noo?"

However, in all seriousness

Performance - Hast to be Td5 or Tdci, because struggling to pull the skin or a wet pudding doesn't classify as performance.
value - NFI
off-road - Td5 lacks the low down grunt of the rest but can be sorted with a chip
on-road - sure ain't the 200 or 300
simplicity - 200
bush mechanics - 200
economy - they're all pretty economical but probably one of the tdis
authenticity - And wtf does this mean, do we count out the puma as it's a transit motor?
ease of mods - Besides playing with the fueling, exactly what can you do to the tdis? Td5 imho
reliability - they're all land rover engines, even the pumas are having a munch on headgaskets later in life, You could have any one of them **** on you in the middle of no-where

That's this biased Td5 fanboys view :D
If it had named the TD5 as the Tops it would have been a good test, eh!, Regards Frank.

[Disco Muppet]

If it had named the TD5 as the Tops it would have been a good test, eh!, Regards Frank.

About time you started talking sense eh Frank ;) :p


Did you not notice me naming the tdi motors as top in a few, and only Td5 as top in one?
Or my little disclaimer at the finish?
Yes, I love my Td5
Yes, I think it's the best diesel engine Land Rover ever made, as do plenty of others.
I do not hide this at all.
No offence intended with this post, just a friendly dig :)

[Disco Muppet]

*double post*

[bob10]

So, what about the 3.2 transit engine? Bob

[Tank]

About time you started talking sense eh Frank ;) :p


Did you not notice me naming the tdi motors as top in a few, and only Td5 as top in one?
Or my little disclaimer at the finish?
Yes, I love my Td5
Yes, I think it's the best diesel engine Land Rover ever made, as do plenty of others.
I do not hide this at all.
No offence intended with this post, just a friendly dig :)
It was a Joke Joyce, also, should have put a smily in, Regards Frank.

[Disco Muppet]

It was a Joke Joyce, also, should have put a smily in, Regards Frank.

Congrats for being the only other person I know to use the term 'It's a joke joyce' :p

[d2dave]

off-road - Td5 lacks the low down grunt of the rest but can be sorted with a chip


Either you have something wrong with your Td5 or I have something wrong with my Tdi.

My D2(currantly unchiped) against my D1 from a standing start is like comparring a Ferrari to a Renault 12

[Disco Muppet]

Well yes, my MAF is dicky atm.
I'm not talking off the line.
At least in mine it takes a bit of pedal to get it moving up hills in low range, whereas I've seen Tdis take it at idle.
But that could just be mine ;)

[Tank]

Congrats for being the only other person I know to use the term 'It's a joke joyce' :p
See I'm an old bastard, I remember watching Graham Kennedy on the B&W telly, back then it became part of the language, Regards Frank.

[RVR110]

It's no more than a ridiculous article designed as a page filler. As I am not a mechanic, the problem starts with the criteria that they chose:

Criteria that matter to me:
Performance
Off-road
On-road
Economy


Criteria that matter to a mechanic or someone who just has to tinker:
Ease of mods - Probably only important if you own a 200Tdi and want to increase the power from 80KW to 90KW and torque from 255NM to 360NM??
Simplicity - I don't care. That's my mechanic's problem. To me, simplicity does not imply reliability, which appears separately in the criteria. Just having simplicity just for the sake of being simple makes not sense to me.
Bush mechanics - I don't know how to fix any turbo diesel in the bush or in the workshop so I really don't care.


Criteria that remain a complete mystery to me:
Value - I can compare the price of a 1996 300 TDdi to a 2004 Td5 but value is highly subjective
Authenticity - One for the luddites. Presumably a 38Kw, 118 Nm 2052cc diesel engine would have scored well here if it were in a Defender
Reliability - Due to the various ages of these engines, it is next to impossible to compare like with like. It doesn't make any sense to me to compare the reliability of a 200Tdi with 300,000+Km on the clock with a Tdci with 15,000 Km on the clock

[vnx205]

I suggest that you don't dismiss simplicity so readily.

Don't forget you are paying for your mechanic's time. A simple engine could easily take much less of his or her time to fix and leave a smaller hole in your wallet. :)

EDIT
There is also the principle that parts that are not fitted don't weigh anything and can't break down. :D

[Blknight.aus]

Just to give some balance,the Isuzu's are being replaced where I was working in the Pilbara because of unreliability,total lack of customer support,total lack of parts kept on the shelf and general poor quality. Pat

Funny, you can still buy complete rebuild kits for them.


Forgot to add,the timing belt issue with Tdi's was fixed a decade ago,the Td5 fuel pump is well known,if you get stuck it's your fault,to prime the ''fords'' fuel system needs only a compressor,you should carry one with you,but then again why are you fitting an empty filter which causes the problem in the first place?,all fuel systems will fail if neglected,ditto the cooling system,are you saying the Isuzu won't overheat if the rad is blocked?,don't know about the quality of fuel bit,my engines are diesel,I fill them with diesel???. Pat

the timing belt is still an 80K Km replace item, and it doesnt handle ingress of much into the timing case.

so you need a compressor to prime the fuel system in the ford, odd how no preceding shed class landy needed that, so specialist tool for the job.

so your prefilling your filters on a common rail fuel system. Try that on a brand new one then tell the dealer thats how you did it and enjoy them smirking as they calmly write off your warranty on the fuel system.

yep the isuzu will over heat if the radiator is blocked but then so will pretty much every other water cooled engine on the planet. The comment on the cooling system for the TD5 was to do more with the secret hidden heater hose and the other known frequent leaks, like the fuel cooler on the early models, the fragile return to header tank line and the EGR cooler line on the mid range models of the td5.


yeah I fill my diesels with diesel, sometimes, but then not all diesel is created or supplied equal.

[ramblingboy42]

while I've got a td5 , it's the best

[RVR110]

I suggest that you don't dismiss simplicity so readily.

Don't forget you are paying for your mechanic's time. A simple engine could easily take much less of his or her time to fix and leave a smaller hole in your wallet. :)

EDIT
There is also the principle that parts that are not fitted don't weigh anything and can't break down. :D

That's true, but they don't make simple engines for cars any more, so by definition the simple engines in cars are now old and worn, so they will be at the mechanic a whole lot more. My '68 Corvette was simple, but it cost me many times more at the mechanic than any of my modern cars ever have... Fortunately it still had it's charms
:D

Actually, the reason that I first bought a puma was that my 1985 110 3.5L v8 was so expensive to keep on the road. The total cost of ownership of the old 110 on an annual basis was much, much higher than the cost of the puma, even taking into account depreciation given that the puma cost 10 times the price of the v8. I had both for a few months and did some side by side comparisons - the v8 couldn't keep up with the puma on or off road.

I'd also make the point that "sophisticated" can be the opposite of "simple".

[PAT303]

Funny, you can still buy complete rebuild kits for them.



the timing belt is still an 80K Km replace item, and it doesnt handle ingress of much into the timing case.

so you need a compressor to prime the fuel system in the ford, odd how no preceding shed class landy needed that, so specialist tool for the job.

so your prefilling your filters on a common rail fuel system. Try that on a brand new one then tell the dealer thats how you did it and enjoy them smirking as they calmly write off your warranty on the fuel system.

yep the isuzu will over heat if the radiator is blocked but then so will pretty much every other water cooled engine on the planet. The comment on the cooling system for the TD5 was to do more with the secret hidden heater hose and the other known frequent leaks, like the fuel cooler on the early models, the fragile return to header tank line and the EGR cooler line on the mid range models of the td5.


yeah I fill my diesels with diesel, sometimes, but then not all diesel is created or supplied equal.

Sorry mate but you just seem to make up problems to justify your reasoning,most of this post is just babbling or what if's and all the problems with the Td5 are avoidable with good servicing,80k timing belts,yep,never done it that early in 16 years but if you say so it must be true;). Pat

[Dougal]

Just to give some balance,the Isuzu's are being replaced where I was working in the Pilbara because of unreliability,total lack of customer support,total lack of parts kept on the shelf and general poor quality. Pat

Funny, it's not April first.

Those engines that do half a million km between overhauls in 8 ton trucks must be garbage.

[scarry]

Sorry mate but you just seem to make up problems to justify your reasoning,most of this post is just babbling or what if's and all the problems with the Td5 are avoidable with good servicing,80k timing belts,yep,never done it that early in 16 years but if you say so it must be true;). Pat

Don't think any is any 'better' than the other,the key element is to service it correctly,look after it.
And do a bit of reading about the one you have which will help you keep an eye on any common issues.

[PAT303]

Funny, it's not April first.

Those engines that do half a million km between overhauls in 8 ton trucks must be garbage.

Grandfathers axe :D Pat

[mools]

What about the 2.8l BMW M52 engine fitted to the SA Defenders? Never driven nor seen one but always thought they sounded like they'd be good.


Edit:

Bollox that was a petrol engine! Ignore the idiot.

Ian.

[Blknight.aus]

Sorry mate but you just seem to make up problems to justify your reasoning,most of this post is just babbling or what if's and all the problems with the Td5 are avoidable with good servicing,80k timing belts,yep,never done it that early in 16 years but if you say so it must be true;). Pat

I suggest you go and re-read the first post I put up....

then have a quick look around using the search feature and have a look at how many people have had the secret hidden heater hose let go and how many have had the fuel cooler sealing rings leak.

We wont mention the number of times the fuel pressure regulator leaks show up either....

cause doing that, might just support my original statement of


fragile nature of the fuel and cooling system if neglected

just because we know about the maintenance requirements based on experience doesnt mean everyone does.

[Dougal]

Grandfathers axe :D Pat

Nope.
Oil changes at 16,000km (since the early 80's) and they do 500,000km between overhauls in 8 ton (gross) trucks.
All parts are still available too.

So whatever engine you think you're talking about either it's not a 4BD1/4BD1T or your mechanics are saboteurs.

[Ancient Mariner]

Grandfathers axe :D Pat
Rather have an axe that keeps cutting than a chainsaw that wont start:D

[DiscoMick]

The Tdi is a bit underpowered when standard, but just goes on and on with sensible maintenance.

[ozscott]

Look they are all smelly crap. Just get a v8 and stop whinging. Seriously infighting about diesels is like comparing turds in a tub...that ones browner than that one!

Hahaha!

Cheers

[Disco Muppet]

That's cute :p

[jerryd]

:eek: After reading this thread I might just keep the "Holden Motor" and not put in the 300tdi

[scarry]

:eek: After reading this thread I might just keep the "Holden Motor" and not put in the 300tdi


Or maybe throw in a 1HD........

[Dougal]

Or maybe throw in a 1HD........

So you get practised changing conrod bearings?

[Ancient Mariner]

VM is conspicuous by its absence

[rangietragic]

VM is conspicuous by its absence
Are we talking "land rover" engines or engines that have been put in land rovers. The vm was an italian engine.For bush fixability,300 tdi.For performance,td5.

[Shingleback]

FWIW i've had both a Td5 defender 130 and an ISUZU turbo at the same time, and I ended up selling the Td5.

While the Td5 is nice and smooth, quiet and is zippy enough, it isn't in the same class as the mighty isuzu when it comes to sheer off idle stump pulling grunt. Yes the Td5 revs higher, and a 1/4 mile drag would be very close, but have that 1/4 drag up a hill fully loaded or towing... no contest. And both get similar fuel economy.

Everything has its pro's and con's and everyone has different needs. For me the isuzu wins hands down, with no bloody computers, heaps of torque, great fuel economy, simple robust proven bullet proof design, no timing belts and is easy to DIY service. The only area it lost in was the noise department but that has been addressed with good soundproofing.

Cheers,
Andrew