IIA 88 rear shock absorber lengths

[Johnno1969]

Hey all,

Apologies if this query appears elsewhere and I've been too lazy to search for it...

A question: Could anybody suggest the correct travel for a rear shocky on a standard set-up 88? I ask because I bought some items a while back which didn't even reach the mounting points when fully extended, even though the supplier was adamant that they were correct ( I believe that they were HD front shocks from a 109 (part number RTC4235), which, according to the supplier, would be what I wanted for rear HD shocks in an 88).

My springs are off-the-shelf replacements for the standard set-up, bought some time ago. At present they sit a little high as I haven't driven the car since putting them back in during my current rebuild. The length from eye to eye at rest is approximately 21". Even accounting for a little extra height at present, that is way longer than the maximum extension of the shocks I bought. Whatever I fit, I want to use HD items.

Thoughts/advice/part numbers????

Thanks,

John

[B.S.F.]

Extended 526mm( 20.7") closed 334mm(13.1") for 88" rear according to an old Acdelco catalogue. .W.

[Johnno1969]

Thanks for that. Yeah, the thing is that I don't think my springs will be flattening that much when I drive it - I wouldn't want any less extension than that you quote.

I wish I had kept my previous shockies. I'd love to know that the compression and extension measurements were on them.

[Johnno1969]

Anybody got a part number or a supplier for a heavy duty item which would fit the bill?

[mick88]

ES3000 Shock Absorbers for Series | Pro Comp | Brands (http://www.paddockspares.com/brands/pro-comp/es3000-shock-absorbers-for-series.html)

[Johnno1969]

Thanks for that, Mick.

I thought about ordering Pro-Comp shockies a while back, but I ran into a wall at the time when I was told that the gas shocks can't be air-freighted to Australia. Does that sound right????

What I can't understand is that the shock which I was sent (and is listed by a lot of suppliers as the right HD item for the rear of an 88) had an extended length of only seventeen inches... I couldn't even begin to fit it.

John

[marting]

Hi John

Have you tried talking to MR Automotive. I was talking to Dwayne last week about shocks for mine and he mentioned they recommended (and stocked) Boge shocks for series vehicles. AFAIK the HD front shocks for a 109 should be the same as the HD 88 rear shocks.

Let me know what you find out. I will watch this thread with interest!

Cheers, Martin

[Johnno1969]

Thanks Martin. I might give them a shout. I looked at the link which Mick posted here and have made an enquiry to the supplier about what it might cost to get four of the Pro Comp shocks delivered to Australia.

The frustrating thing has been that I've tried to buy HD shocks locally, and the rear ones (despite being the part number quoted from everywhere as correct) were a good 4" to short to fit. Maybe there was something wrong with the pair sent to me. Dunno. The front ones I obtained were alright, but I will change them too if I end up going for the gas shocks.

John

[mick88]

Not sure about the air freight issue John. I am intending to get a set myself in the next week or so.


Cheers, Mick.

[Johnno1969]

Thanks Mick,

Paddocks contacted me and gave an estimate of 87 quid for postage on top of a bit over a hundred quid for four shocks. I am doing some thinking.

Cheers,

John

[Johnno1969]

Hi John

Have you tried talking to MR Automotive. I was talking to Dwayne last week about shocks for mine and he mentioned they recommended (and stocked) Boge shocks for series vehicles. AFAIK the HD front shocks for a 109 should be the same as the HD 88 rear shocks.

Let me know what you find out. I will watch this thread with interest!

Cheers, Martin

I spoke to MR Automotive - they quoted the HD part that they stocked as RTC 4235 (like everybody else...) and they then recommended a business in Brisbane which makes shocks. I am yet to work out why the RTC 4235 items I had in my hands several months ago most definitely did not extend long enough to fit to my vehicle. I know that it is sitting a little high at the moment - but that is immaterial: The extended length quoted for rear shocks on 88s is 20.28". The RTC 4235s I had fell almost four inches short of that. What the hell is going on? It can't be this hard to get a HD shock for an 88's rear.

[Ozdunc]

Johnno

Are you sure that the RTC4235 shocks you have are ACTUALLY RTC4235 shocks and not another part number sent in error badged as RTC4235?

[marting]

Hi John
I checked the old shocks I have a here (a HD set off the front of a 109 and a set off the rear of an 88) and neither set extends anywhere near the 20.88 inches. One set are Pedders so no point contacting them!
Keep searching!!
Cheers, Martin

[UncleHo]

Have you got Parabolics? if so I would recommend getting a set off a coil sprung vehicle,like a RRC or Disco 1,I have just replaced mine on the D1 got them from REPCO, Maxtrax brand, gas about $175 a set :) They should be able to do a set of "eye-eye" types as my coil sprung vehicles and the LWB 2a are "eye-pin" type if not give them your specifications open -closed double action and see what they come up with :)


cheers

[Johnno1969]

Johnno

Are you sure that the RTC4235 shocks you have are ACTUALLY RTC4235 shocks and not another part number sent in error badged as RTC4235?

Good point. I assume that they were. It is a bit late to check now, as I returned them to the supplier.

Thanks,

John

[Johnno1969]

Have you got Parabolics? if so I would recommend getting a set off a coil sprung vehicle,like a RRC or Disco 1,I have just replaced mine on the D1 got them from REPCO, Maxtrax brand, gas about $175 a set :) They should be able to do a set of "eye-eye" types as my coil sprung vehicles and the LWB 2a are "eye-pin" type if not give them your specifications open -closed double action and see what they come up with :)


cheers

Nope, they're standard springs. Thanks for the info on the Maxtrax shocks. I think what I will do next will be to phone somebody who carries the RTC 4235 shock and get them to pull out a set and check them for travel. maybe there was something amiss with the ones I which were delivered to me.

Thanks,

John

[happydad59]

John, my 88 sits fairly high and I measured the rear shocks at rest at a shade under 20", so must be much more extended, front shocks were 16" at rest. The 20" extended sound more like front shocks??

[Johnno1969]

John, my 88 sits fairly high and I measured the rear shocks at rest at a shade under 20", so must be much more extended, front shocks were 16" at rest. The 20" extended sound more like front shocks??

Thanks for that. That sounds more or less like my 88's rear. It sits at about 21" now, but I know that the car will be settling lower (but not a hell of a lot lower) once it gets back on the road. No way is it going to drop four inches, anyway, to get down to the maximum length of the shocks I bought.

What you describe certainly sounds like more like the ticket. It seems to match up better with the quoted specs, anyway. What sort are they? Are they standard rated or heavy duty?

Cheers,

John

[Ozdunc]

I went out this morning and measured the rear shock length for Bill.
middle of bolt to middle of bolt (eye to eye) was 18.5". And I know Bill sits about 1" higher than stock at the rear due to some heinous cart springs that are under there currently.

I couldn't see what the rear shock manu was due to years of grime/faded paint/overspray but the fronts are Gabriel, so I popped on to their website and found they still list a HD Gas Ultra Shock G63510 for the rear of a SWB

The application chart is weirdly under NewProducts.

Might be worth giving them a ring to see what the lengths are of that option.

[Johnno1969]

I went out this morning and measured the rear shock length for Bill.
middle of bolt to middle of bolt (eye to eye) was 18.5". And I know Bill sits about 1" higher than stock at the rear due to some heinous cart springs that are under there currently.

I couldn't see what the rear shock manu was due to years of grime/faded paint/overspray but the fronts are Gabriel, so I popped on to their website and found they still list a HD Gas Ultra Shock G63510 for the rear of a SWB

The application chart is weirdly under NewProducts.

Might be worth giving them a ring to see what the lengths are of that option.

Thanks for that. I'll chase that one up too. It's interesting to see that measurement from Bill, because, even though it is not as large as that for my Landy, is still longer than the maximum extension of the RTC 4235 shocks I was sent.

Cheers,

John

[happydad59]

My shocks are old with no recognizable markings. There is another thread running at the moment about springs and number of leafs. Going by what is in that thread, my rear springs which have 9 leaves (2 thin and 7 thick) are most probably LWB springs, so maybe that is why the SWB shock specs aren't matching the springs.

[Johnno1969]

This is driving me mental. I've never really had any trouble getting parts for my IIA, but the rear shock thing is messing with my mind.

Everybody who lists a HD shock for the rear end of an 88 gives the part number of RTC 4235. When I had two of these, they only reached 17" in length when extended. The specs I can find suggest that the compressed and extended length of shocks for the rear of an 88 (the standard part number is RTC 4232) are:

RTC4232 320 12,60 515 20,28

Maximum extension 515mm or 20.28", compressed length 320mm or 12.60".

That is pretty-much is how my rear axle sits.

I can get HD shocks from a suspension outlet with those specs, but they are pretty expensive. When I phone Land Rover suppliers, asking them to pull out a pair of (nice and cheap) RTC 4235 shocks, they say things like "Oh they're in the warehouse... we can't check that."

Nobody I have contacted says "Yes, we have items for the rear of an 88. Here are the specs...."

Aaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.. ..........

[Ozdunc]

Just a question but why do you need the HD shocks over the standard shock anyway?
Will you be carrying heavy objects around all the time?
The springs support the load and are to a point self damping until you start carrying heavier loads. But if you use HD shocks with standard springs unladen you may find the spring can't respond fast enough to the trail/road leading to packing over corrugations.
Springs and shocks should usually be matched so the valving is compatible with the spring rate.

[Johnno1969]

Just a question but why do you need the HD shocks over the standard shock anyway?
Will you be carrying heavy objects around all the time?
The springs support the load and are to a point self damping until you start carrying heavier loads. But if you use HD shocks with standard springs unladen you may find the spring can't respond fast enough to the trail/road leading to packing over corrugations.
Springs and shocks should usually be matched so the valving is compatible with the spring rate.

Good question. Basically I am just doing a bit of experiment (having had standard oil shocks earlier) with a cleaned-up spring pack and I'm interested how it'll go with the heavier shocks. That's one reason why I don't want to pay an arm and a leg: I may go back to standard after a little time anyway. The thing is, I would like to find a supplier who could confirm the extended length, particularly...

[chazza]

Johnno, I have a very similar problem on the front of my 109".

The car had Monroe gas dampers on it when it arrived, but after reconditioning the springs and reassembly time came along, the dampers were about 50mm too short. I assume that because the springs were rusty, that they had settled in a low position when the Monroes were fitted, so I bought original dampers from Paddock.

The Paddock ones were 50mm too short as well :(

In the end I compressed the springs and fitted them, but I have of course lost a lot of downward travel on the front axle.

I await your solution with interest,

Cheers Charlie

[debruiser]

Johnno, I have a very similar problem on the front of my 109".

The car had Monroe gas dampers on it when it arrived, but after reconditioning the springs and reassembly time came along, the dampers were about 50mm too short. I assume that because the springs were rusty, that they had settled in a low position when the Monroes were fitted, so I bought original dampers from Paddock.

The Paddock ones were 50mm too short as well :(

In the end I compressed the springs and fitted them, but I have of course lost a lot of downward travel on the front axle.

I await your solution with interest,

Cheers Charlie

If you compressed the spring to fit the shock, doesn't that mean that under normal operation the shock is bottoming out?

I'm about to run into this problem as well, I've got a bit of lift on my 88, so I'm going to assume I'm in for a bit of a nightmare to find suitable shocks.

[Johnno1969]

Johnno, I have a very similar problem on the front of my 109".

The car had Monroe gas dampers on it when it arrived, but after reconditioning the springs and reassembly time came along, the dampers were about 50mm too short. I assume that because the springs were rusty, that they had settled in a low position when the Monroes were fitted, so I bought original dampers from Paddock.

The Paddock ones were 50mm too short as well :(

In the end I compressed the springs and fitted them, but I have of course lost a lot of downward travel on the front axle.

I await your solution with interest,

Cheers Charlie

Hey Charlie,

That's interesting, eh? That sort of thing is one reason I have been so pedantic with asking questions of suppliers to confirm the extended and compressed lengths before I'll buy a shock absorber. Luckily, I was able to return the set of shocks I bought a while ago, and I don't want to have to do that again.

The shame of it is that (having thrown away hardly anything when I stripped the car) I threw out the old rear shocks. What I wouldn't give now to know exactly what they were. At the time, I suppose I never guessed that I might run into trouble replacing them.

Your mention of getting too-short shocks from Paddocks confirms my hesitancy about buying sight-unseen unless I can absolutely confirm what I am getting first.

Thanks - and I will definitely post on this when I find a solution (or somebody pops up and explains what an idiot I've been and what I should be buying).

Cheers,

John

[Johnno1969]

If you compressed the spring to fit the shock, doesn't that mean that under normal operation the shock is bottoming out?

I'm about to run into this problem as well, I've got a bit of lift on my 88, so I'm going to assume I'm in for a bit of a nightmare to find suitable shocks.

Yep - good point. I am paying especial attention to the compressed length as well. Not good to have the shock bottom-out and the mounts take all that sudden force.

Must do some measurements this week to see how closely the compressed length I need matches the spec sheet I have.

Cheers,

John

[chazza]

If you compressed the spring to fit the shock, doesn't that mean that under normal operation the shock is bottoming out?



I think in my case it is more likely to take the load when the wheel drops; it is not a good situation, but I put them on anticipating getting it through licencing and hopefully finding a solution before it goes off-road.

I wonder if the longer travel dampers the parabolic spring people recommend is the better way to go.

It is extraordinary that it seems so many standard parts are quite clearly the wrong ones!

Cheers Charlie

[Johnno1969]

I guess for me the optimum extended length would mean that the springs are coming to about the end of their comfortable travel and the shock to its maximum extension at around the same time. I would want the axle at the top of its travel to encounter the bump-stop on the chassis just before the load hit the shock absorber and its mounts....

[debruiser]

Agreed, on shock lengths. Max travel is what we'd be chasing. Maybe it'd be a good idea to look up what they use with the para's cause those are supposed to give you up to 50mm of lift, so one would think that the shocks are longer to compensate. Although would the valving be different to account for the different spring rate of the paras?

[Johnno1969]

Agreed, on shock lengths. Max travel is what we'd be chasing. Maybe it'd be a good idea to look up what they use with the para's cause those are supposed to give you up to 50mm of lift, so one would think that the shocks are longer to compensate. Although would the valving be different to account for the different spring rate of the paras?

Yes, I get the impression that the shocks they seem to use for parabolics give 50mm more downward travel, but I am unsure of the compressed lengths.

It seems comparatively easy to order such shocks from the UK, but once they're here and they turn out not to be correct....

Also, the point of valving and spring rates has to be considered. Ozdunc raised a good question in why am I interested in getting HD shocks, and I realise that in the long run I may go back to standard. But I do want to have a bit of a play with some HD units to compare to my previous setups.

It is just frustrating to see stock items listed as correct, but the only examples I have managed to get hold of were definitely too short.

[debruiser]

I feel your pain, ordering the wrong thing is not an option for me either, and I'm extremely reluctant to order these sorts of thing without some form of guarantee. Finding shock details are often difficult.

I'd love to be able to try out different shocks to see what they feel like and what I like best, but there is no way I can justify purchasing more than 1 set. So it's research research research for me.

[chazza]

One advantage over the parabolic springs that the originals have, is the spring damping between the leaves.

I don't think heavier rates of damping are really that applicable on the standard set-up. Hopefully someone with dampers off a parabolic conversion, can measure the extended and compressed lengths for us and let us know a brand name, or part number.

Alternatively; if someone lives near a parts shop (I don't) examine every damper in stock and see if one comes close. I did this for a Morris Minor van once in 1982 and the perfect match was off a Ford Escort,

Cheers Charlie

[Johnno1969]

One advantage over the parabolic springs that the originals have, is the spring damping between the leaves.

I don't think heavier rates of damping are really that applicable on the standard set-up. Hopefully someone with dampers off a parabolic conversion, can measure the extended and compressed lengths for us and let us know a brand name, or part number.

Alternatively; if someone lives near a parts shop (I don't) examine every damper in stock and see if one comes close. I did this for a Morris Minor van once in 1982 and the perfect match was off a Ford Escort,

Cheers Charlie

You're right, Charlie. All advice seems to point to heavier damping not being particularly applicable to standard springs due to the inter-leaf friction providing in-built damping. BUT... everybody's vehicle is different once it gets to fifty years of age. My springs are pretty bouncy and supple (and not LR items) and I just want to give the heavier damping a go. If I don't like it, I will then buy standard shocks and make a generous donation to a more needy person...

John

[chazza]

OK, the latest in the damper saga. I emailed Rover parts and explained my problem on the 109" as explained earlier in this thread. Hopefully the information here might benefit you Johno. All dimensions are from centre-to-centre of the eyes.

RTC4442 is the standard damper for the front of a 109". Extended length 530mm; compressed 470mm.

STC3941 as fitted to Aust Army Rovers with the extended spring shackles. Extended 650mm; compressed 580mm.

Britpart one Paddock sent me. Extended 415mm; compressed 280mm - nowhere near the right size!.

If anyone can tell me what the Britpart one will fit, I will be happy to know; I also have a pair of Monroe gas dampers, which are similar in dimension to the Britpart and were on the car when I got it.

Anyway I am going to buy a pair of RTC4442 and I will let you know when I get them if they fit.

For those with SWB have a look here Land Rover Parts - SHOCK ABSORBERS - SWB 88"" (http://www.roverparts.com.au/shock_absorbers___swb_88__?b=1) and email Sean if you have questions; he has been very helpful to me with my stupid questions,

Cheers Charlie

[debruiser]

RTC4442 is the standard damper for the front of a 109". Extended length 530mm; compressed 470mm.


Are you sure that's not a typo? only 6omm of travel?

[Wolfman_TWP]

Have you guy's tried out this crowd Rocky Mountain Spares UK > Improved Engineered Parts and Accessories for your Land Rover (http://www.rockymountainspares.co.uk/?page_id=41)

I got a set for my 109. As I wanted to put para springs on it.. But changed my mind because of the rear mod that needed to be done for the para's. So ended up cleaning up and sticking to the standard springs. And I still used these shocks. They seem to handle very well. And from memory cost me around $400 with some other stuff I got with them..

Wolf

[chazza]

Are you sure that's not a typo? only 6omm of travel?

Whoops! Yes; that part no. is for the rear damper on a LWB. The figures quoted are from Rover parts ;)

Cheers Charlie

[debruiser]

Whoops! Yes; that part no. is for the rear damper on a LWB. The figures quoted are from Rover parts ;)

Cheers Charlie

rear just makes it worse.... :confused:

[Johnno1969]

For those with SWB have a look here Land Rover Parts - SHOCK ABSORBERS - SWB 88"" (http://www.roverparts.com.au/shock_absorbers___swb_88__?b=1) and email Sean if you have questions; he has been very helpful to me with my stupid questions,

Cheers Charlie

Thanks Charlie,

I've actually just ordered some parts from those folks, and rather wish I'd been aware of them a long time ago.

As for the shocks, I see my ubiquitous nemesis, RTC 4235, named as the HD shock for an 88. Having had a pair of these in hand, and seeing them still 100mm too short at maximum extension, I am loathe to order any more and hope that mine were somehow faulty.

Thanks for the tip. I might call Sean.

Meantime, I have left the details of the extended/compressed lengths of shock absorber required (515mm/320mm) with the local mob who'll be fitting a new exhaust to my Landy soon. They also do shocks and all manner of other things. I'll see what they find.

Cheers,

John

[Johnno1969]

Thanks Charlie,

I've actually just ordered some parts from those folks, and rather wish I'd been aware of them a long time ago.

As for the shocks, I see my ubiquitous nemesis, RTC 4235, named as the HD shock for an 88. Having had a pair of these in hand, and seeing them still 100mm too short at maximum extension, I am loathe to order any more and hope that mine were somehow faulty.

Thanks for the tip. I might call Sean.

Meantime, I have left the details of the extended/compressed lengths of shock absorber required (515mm/320mm) with the local mob who'll be fitting a new exhaust to my Landy soon. They also do shocks and all manner of other things. I'll see what they find.

Cheers,

John

Well, I ended up having an e-mail conversation with Sean, and he confirms the extended/compressed lengths for the RTC4235 items they hold in stock as 515mm/322mm - which is what they should be.

I have no idea what the story was with the other items I received all those months ago from another supplier. Probably just the wrong part. I'm going to order some shocks from Roverparts.

John

[landrover dave]

Front shockers for 109 and 88 std height should be the same, rear 109 you can use range rover rears and remove the limiting straps for more spring droop, have been doing it for years, and rangie rears are cheaper.
Ex army landies use swb rears on the front. Don't know part nos, that's what Sean is for lol.

[marting]

Thanks for all your hard work John. There might be a rush on these shocks from Sean!! I know I will be ordering some from him. Way cheaper than the $150/shock I was quoted for something suitable by a suspension place in Brisbane.
Cheers, Martin

[Johnno1969]

Thanks for all your hard work John. There might be a rush on these shocks from Sean!! I know I will be ordering some from him. Way cheaper than the $150/shock I was quoted for something suitable by a suspension place in Brisbane.
Cheers, Martin

No worries, Martin. Mind you, I kind of feel like I've led everybody on a wild goose chase as I will be ordering the item I thought I was getting in the first place.

All the same, if you want to wait a week or two, I will order some tonight and let you know what they're like when they arrive.

Cheers,

John

[marting]

All the same, if you want to wait a week or two, I will order some tonight and let you know what they're like when they arrive.


Good thinking John!! Let us know if these are correct lenght.

Cheers, Martin

[Johnno1969]

Well the shocks are here and they appear to have the right dimensions. I'll fit them this weekend then get back to you....

[marting]

The suspense is killing me!!

Martin

[Johnno1969]

Righto, all is well. The shocks fitted easily.

It really does look like I was simply sent the wrong shockies first time around.

The ones I have now are Armstrong HD items, part number RTC 4235, as per the parts list.

$150 delivered for the pair.

Now we'll see how they go.

John

[Johnno1969]

The computer won't let me attach a photo. It tells me that it's already on my Landy's "Refit" thread. Bossy computer.

Anyway, have a look there if you want to see it...