Teaser of the Week!

[FANTOM P38]

Brains been running in overdrive lately & came up with what I think may be a good idea/solution to a niggling problem for a few of us!

See if you can guess what i'm up to :)

The FANTOM

More pics to come --- Later

[Pete38]

A handle to grab onto to get in? Going to screw it to the dash on the passenger side, closely missing the airbag :o

[p38arover]

Flattened duct to run through the wheel well for a snorkel?

[Pete38]

Flattened duct to run through the wheel well for a snorkel?

Good guess I think. For some reason my eyes saw it as much smaller, so didn't realise. But I think you could be right there.

Edit: Or is it much smaller and this is just a practice run for the bigger pipe?

[FANTOM P38]

On ya Ron,

I knew it would'nt take too long for the smarties on here to figure it out:arms:

So what is the concensus.

a - Flow rate should be same as 75mm
b - no turbulence effect from spiral ducting
c - less likely to puncture
d - fit easily to 75mm 90 deg bend for airbox & snorkel
e - no need to modify inner liner

Seems to tick all the boxes. :):):)

Will do some real world research tomorrow (FANTOM's fender coming off )

[FANTOM P38]

Oops I forgot.

e - Simple
f - Cheap

[Pete38]

On ya Ron,

I knew it would'nt take too long for the smarties on here to figure it out:arms:

So what is the concensus.

a - Flow rate should be same as 75mm
b - no turbulence effect from spiral ducting
c - less likely to puncture
d - fit easily to 75mm 90 deg bend for airbox & snorkel
e - no need to modify inner liner

Seems to tick all the boxes. :):):)

Will do some real world research tomorrow (FANTOM's fender coming off )

Looks good to me. Supposedly filling it with sand before getting to it with hte heat gun will help form it without crinkles or folds. But that's just internet searching previously, not from experience.

I will be very interested what the width and height restrictions are through there so you know how flat it should/has to be made. So thank you in advance.

Hopefully we can confirm the ID required prior to landing so the materials can all be sitting there waiting (which I think general perspective is it should be 3 inches or 76mm)

[Pete38]

Edit: Removing all evidence of my mistake

[FANTOM P38]

My thinking is to start with 75mm pipe that way you can't lose volume just change shape in centre section to fit between liner & chassis, then you also have correct od at each end for hose fitment.

Would love to hear others comments good or bad as to whether it should work, Cant be any worse than flexipipe surely!

[FANTOM P38]

By the way the photo is of 65mm pipe & it took no more than 10min to heat up & flatten down with a short length of 90x45. That was a way of keeping it firly even as I pressed down while it was quite warm & held it while it cooled down. Tomorrow i will get some 75mm & precut to correct length required to clear highest point of inner liner then test fit to ensure no interference!

Here's hoping

[Pete38]

I think it looks like it will work well. Those silicon connectors ain't that cheap, but you'll have a reliable and hopefully the wheel arch liner in place where it should be I hope so well worth it if you ask me.

[TheTree]

I thought about the square downpipe stuff but that is still 65mm high so it's probably no use.

I await with interest in the outcome of your adventures :cool:

Steve

[Pete38]

Out of curiosity, how do you plan on getting a hose long enough to go through the guard onto the airbox trumpet? It appears like 150-200mm distance but could be wrong.

This style looks too short, but hope there are angled ones with one side of the bend longer.

SILICONE HOSE 90 DEG 76 X 76MM BLUE - Supercheap Auto Australia (http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/SILICONE-HOSE-90-DEG-76-X-76MM-BLUE.aspx?pid=341485#Cross)

Edit: Otherwise I guess a short length of 75mm PVC pipe with a straight bit of silicone tube to mate to the trumpet.

[davidsonsm]

By the way the photo is of 65mm pipe & it took no more than 10min to heat up & flatten down with a short length of 90x45. That was a way of keeping it firly even as I pressed down while it was quite warm & held it while it cooled down. Tomorrow i will get some 75mm & precut to correct length required to clear highest point of inner liner then test fit to ensure no interference!

Here's hoping
Looks like just the job. Ideal. Interested to see if it will fit.

[Keithy P38]

Good onya Martin. Genius!

[TheTree]

Hi

You could easily use some of the silicone intake ducting instead of silicone elbows

76mm 3" Silicone AIR Ducting Flexible Brake Cold Induction Intake Pipe Hose 1M | eBay

Steve

[FANTOM P38]

Well progress has been made - Over the weekend Sam & myself started to pull apart the Fantom to see how my idea was going to work. Well with a bit of measuring heating & teasing we manipulated some 75mm pvc pipe into a form that allows just enough clearance to squeeze:mad: between chassis & inner liner & mudgaurd.

But the best thing I discovered, was that the early P38's are a breeze to connect into airbox ( see photo's). I purchased a 75mm x90degree Silicone bend from Supercheap cheap for $25 and it fits into airbox & onto pipe perfectly, just need to clamp & seal to pipe then push into air inlet in chassis through (directly ) to airbox & silicone seal both ends (airbox & chassis ) for water tight seal.
Then simply fit another 90 deg silicone bend to other end to slide onto 75mm snorkel pipe.

I plan to see local exhaust bloke tomorrow to get a price on 75mm s/steel pipe mandrel bent with 2x tabs welded on to fix to a pillar.
ps. If anyone has done this could they give me an idea of what cost I should expect. Even better if anyone knows a friendly exhaust person in Melbourne's West that I should talk to that can do this would be good.

If anyone is interested I will ask for qty price on pipe & bending/welding
see if it helps cut cost even further.

Lastly I have a Safari snorkel top inlet which will be fitted to pipe to finish off.
Will update once I have more details.

[FANTOM P38]

There's more!

[Pete38]

Nice progress and findings there. Assuming the stainless pipe and bending, pvc pipe and $50 worth of fittings will come in at quite a reasonable price. Following with great interest.

Would also consider jumping on the pipe bending wagon if plenty of others do as well, to validate the shipping to Sydney for me.

[davidsonsm]

Looks like you've got it cracked. I'd imagine an exhaust place would knock up the required A pillar pipe in no time.

Good work. When I'd investigated that routing through the inner wing, I'd decided it was too tight. But looks like you're onto a winner.

[FANTOM P38]

Been also thinking of trying 1mt length of 75mm silicone hose - only concern with that is that it could colapse internally under heavy load, However it would be easier than moulding pvc pipe!

[davidsonsm]

The world is.your lobster when it comes to hose options. I looked at many options. I eventually went for some spiral steel wire bound high temp exhaust hose, but that wouldn't shape very well for your need.

I assure you, the method you're pursuing is way less involved than the path I chose. And much less intrusive on the engine bay. My only comment is, would it be easier to start off with some rectangular PVC gutter down spout?

And you need to ensure the air box can be removed. Just in case.

[Keithy P38]

Shouldn't cost you much to have the wing-to-a pillar stainless done. My whole snorkel cost $700 to have someone else knock up, so I'd imagine a mandrel bend or two and maybe 1.5m of stainless shouldn't cost more than $300... Easy job.

Be wary of fixing to the A pillar, that trim is removable, so you'll need to ensure you can still do that if you need to, and it will need to fix to the body (not the trim)!

Good work mate!

[redandy3575]

Should be an interesting outcome.

[FANTOM P38]

There is already 3 x fixing screws to the A pillar underneath the trim just need to ensure tabs are welded in correct positions. Plus will need to cut out small sections of trim so I'll make up cardboard template for marking up trim.
Good point Sean re Airbox I'll need to think about how best to achieve that or just bite bullet & seal in situ. ( have never had need to take it out yet but never know ).

[mtb_gary]

An interesting project to follow. For me, I'm still not sure I want to start cutting up the old girl though. I still like the original look.

Gary

[davidsonsm]

Martin,

at 75mm diameter, you could rent a hydraulic pipe bending machine. Get yourself some st stl pipe. Make it yourself.

Just suggesting (copyright permitting!!) :D


Sean.

[Pete38]

Anyone see any problem using PVC pipe for the snorkel up the pillar if it's going to get painted anyway? Considering black to match my bar, sliders and wheels.

Inlet temperature maybe?

[davidsonsm]

Only aesthetics. Assuming you'd be using elbow fittings for the bends, which in my opinion really detracts.

PVC will handle ambient air temp no problem.

[Pete38]

Well I was contemplating a single pipe and making the bends with sand filled in the tube to make the bends smoother. I think the sand gives a high thermal mass, more consistent heat distribution and restricts the pvc from creasing/folding.

But have never done it so I fear the section changes at the bend will mean it has less diameter at the bend. Although it will only be a gentle bend so maybe not??? Only from an aesthetics point of view, not worried about the flow restriction.

Regards using PVC: I was more thinking intake temperatures and thermal properties/mass because of direct sunlight on the PVC, especially when it's painted black and its summer. I'm not worried about what temperatures the PVC can take.

[Pete38]

Not trying to hijack the thread so I'll start another one if this leads to further conversation... But I'm now wondering if I could put 75 diameter timber discs down the pipe prior to heating and bending, with spacers between them to allow the piep to bend but keep the bent section similar internal diameter. Just hope the pipe can be bent with a tight internal radius where it goes down through the bonnet and guard.

[davidsonsm]

I was wondering if you get hold of 3" pipe bending spings. But then this caught my eye:

PVC Pipe Bending Tool 9B - Heats Pipe from the inside. For bending 1 1/4" - 3" Sched. 40 PVC Pipe - SME Inkjet Printer Cartridge Supplies and SJ 27 Oil (http://www.smeinkjet.com/products.php?product=PVC-Pipe-Bending-Tool-9B-%252d-Heats-Pipe-from-the-inside.--For-bending-1-1%7B47%7D4%22-%252d-3%22-Sched.-40-PVC-Pipe)


Just the rotten job.

[Pete38]

Looked great.. Until I saw the price :o

[davidsonsm]

Tape a cap on an overly long length of the PVC pipe. Fill said pipe with sand. Put another cap on the other end. Use a heat gun and with the pipe on a flat surface, bend it around a curved wooden template (that is at least 2" high for 3" dia pipe) - to the desired angle.

That'd work. I reckon. Not tried it.

[FANTOM P38]

Well after speaking to several exhaust shops today & not having much luck finding someone that can mandrel bend 3" pipe, finally spoke to guy tonight that may be able to help.
I need to take car down there to get measured up for correct angle of bend, so if I can finish a little earlier tomorrow will pay him visit. Still not sure whether to go for stainless or mild steel, will see what difference in cost would be. I am not too concerned as I am thinking of painting in body colour either way. They only run certain sizes/pipe types in long runs so will have to fit in to their schedule/run. However It seems they would be able to do next week if they have specs sorted in time.
I know I could get it welded but I really prefer cleaner look of bend without join so will see what $$ come in at.

[davidsonsm]

Wouldn't mild steel rust from the inside out? You could buy the straight and mandrel bends and weld them up, and then polish out the welds. A lot of work polishing though.

[FANTOM P38]

That thought had crossed my mind, particularly if it is made up in sections & welded.
Stainless is definitely prefered option, just thinking out loud I guess.
Would be nice to get this all sorted prior to Wombat though!:D

[davidsonsm]

Yes, it will be pretty wet I expect. Have you considered hiring a pipe bender? The hydraulic ones.

[clubagreenie]

Even with the sand I'd guess the PVC may flatten out rather than hold the perfect round shape. I've sand bent a lot of steel and you still get some creasing/rippling unless you're very careful. Also make sure the sand is VERY dry and leave one end uncapped as is will displace and needs to go somewhere and it allows any moisture to escape as it can and will explode. I've seen it happen in steel with bad results and PVC is weaker (though possibly less harmful but wouldn't want to find out).

For the area an ellipse starting from the same 75mm round squished to 100 x 50.

(100 x 50)0.8 = 4000mm/\2

Area or round 75mm tube

A = (75/\2 x n)/4 = 4417.86mm/\2

So it will be slightly less but fine in reality for the engine. You won't be pulling fluid velocities large enough to build a big enough boundary layer of laminar flow to worry it. For testing I fed a 4.7 V8 with a single 60mm inlet and it was only above 9000rpm that boundary layer formation started to restrict flows, without that it would have been fine with volume restriction starting to occur at 11,750 and up (ended up feeding with 2 x 100mm, for looks).

[davidsonsm]

Regards using PVC: I was more thinking intake temperatures and thermal properties/mass because of direct sunlight on the PVC, especially when it's painted black and its summer. I'm not worried about what temperatures the PVC can take.

[/Pete, I've re-read your posting. Apologies for repeating some of your comments and suggestions - I read the original post on my phone i.e. I wasn't paying suffient attention.

Anyhow, I can't see how using PVC would have any significant on intake temperatures - when compared with any other black plastic snorkel. ]

[Pete38]

Regards using PVC: I was more thinking intake temperatures and thermal properties/mass because of direct sunlight on the PVC, especially when it's painted black and its summer. I'm not worried about what temperatures the PVC can take.

[/Pete, I've re-read your posting. Apologies for repeating some of your comments and suggestions - I read the original post on my phone i.e. I wasn't paying suffient attention.

Anyhow, I can't see how using PVC would have any significant on intake temperatures - when compared with any other black plastic snorkel. ]

No worries at all. Appreciate the comments anyway.

[TheTree]

Hi

I am wondering if the silicone intake hose may be flexible enough to deform to shape without needing to make a special piece or to heat and shape the wheel arch liner.

I guess I will find out when I buy some :p

Steve

[Rage Over]

Very interesting progress. Big thumbs up for thinking outside the box (tube?)! :BigThumb:

[FANTOM P38]

Hi

I am wondering if the silicone intake hose may be flexible enough to deform to shape without needing to make a special piece or to heat and shape the wheel arch liner.

Steve

Hi Steve, that is still a consideration, only concern with that option is, if that hose may collapse under pressure cutting off air supply:confused:

Anyway further to previous post just got quote today for 75mm stainless
mandrel bent to correct angle to run along windscreen & down inbetween gaurd & inner chassis.
Quoted $150 so have told them to go ahead - should be ready for pickup late next week:)
Have asked for qty buy price & they seem keen to assist but are waiting on arrival of new mandrel bender before they will commit to price:angel::angel:
so will advise once I can provide more details on that!!

Can't wait, so in meantime I will start by cutting bonnet & gaurd in preparation for install of snorkel, more photos in coming days.

Once completed I will summarise costs for anyone thinking of doing same installation. But so far looks like no more than $260 done & dusted plus my own time!

[TheTree]

Hi Steve, that is still a consideration, only concern with that option is, if that hose may collapse under pressure cutting off air supply:confused:



Hi

I am pretty sure that silicone air ducting hose will not collapse under the pressure

I guess the thing will be to see how much it deforms!

Steve

[Pete38]

Hi

I am pretty sure that silicone air ducting hose will not collapse under the pressure

I guess the thing will be to see how much it deforms!

Steve

Yeh I wouldn't think so either. And its only squashed a little into an ellipse over the wheel arch liner, so wouldn't think it would loose its radial strength that much would it??

But you won't be able to boost your engine to 2 bar though :D

[TheTree]

Hi

Actually I was wondering if there is enough room in there somewhere to fit an inline precleaner

Probably wishful thinking though !

FLEX-N-LINE: Heavy Duty Engine Intake Air Precleaners • Turbo® Precleaner (http://www.turboprecleaner.com/products_flex-n-line.html)

Steve

[davidsonsm]

Steve - how would you access the "pre-cleaner" to clean it? If its within the void between the inner wing and outer.

On the snorkel I made, I used a fine mesh (flyscreen within a round PVC pipe fitting - off the shelf at Bunnings/Masters) on the inlet to my airbox. It is amazing how many bits of debris and flys it collects.

[TheTree]

Hi Mate

It seems the modern ones are self cleaning

Filter Cross Reference - Toolbox - Tech Talk | Donaldson Australia (http://www.donaldsontoolbox.com.au/tech-talk/pre-cleaners/)

As for space I don't have any idea!

Steve
Steve

[DANMAL]

Problem with using the silicone hose and trying to squeeze it in there is that cavity is extremely tight!! The pvc work will hold its shape while the silicone hose will squash and definitely restrict the airflow. While Martin and I put the guard back on over the pvc, the guard was already bulging slightly, so silicone will definitely squash.
Cheers
Sam

[DANMAL]

80271

[TheTree]

Problem with using the silicone hose and trying to squeeze it in there is that cavity is extremely tight!! The pvc work will hold its shape while the silicone hose will squash and definitely restrict the airflow. While Martin and I put the guard back on over the pvc, the guard was already bulging slightly, so silicone will definitely squash.
Cheers
Sam

Hi

Since the hose is spiral reinforced i think it will deform rather than collapse and therefore maintain the same overall "passage area". This is what this hose is designed for.

But of course I could be wrong :eek:

This is the ducting hose I am referring to

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/201114621541?var=500285649209

The PVC will definitely hold up!

Steve

[DANMAL]

I'm not saying it will collapse but I think there's not enough room and it might just restrict airflow.. I could be wrong to but Martins guard was already bulging a bit because of the pvc.
Maybe a but more "makita" heat gun Marty! Hahaha

[DANMAL]

I'll be pulling off my guard this week too and have a starring session again haha

[davidsonsm]

What's the harm in cutting a section from the inner wheel liner, to allow more of the air duct (re-shaped PVC pipe) to stick through? If you're worried about road detritus degrading or damaging the PVC, why not adhere some rubber to its underside, to act as a protector layer.

Of course, you would need to check how close the upper part of the tyre came to the wheel liner - in full articulation of the axle.

[davidsonsm]

[QUOTE=DANMAL;2182086]80271[/

what's the yellow pipe/cable? Can't recall seeing that on mine. QUOTE]

[DANMAL]

What's the harm in cutting a section from the inner wheel liner, to allow more of the air duct (re-shaped PVC pipe) to stick through? If you're worried about road detritus degrading or damaging the PVC, why not adhere some rubber to its underside, to act as a protector layer.

Of course, you would need to check how close the upper part of the tyre came to the wheel liner - in full articulation of the axle.

If the Tyre does grab it under full flex while running 33 's it might dislocate it, damage it etc

[davidsonsm]

If the Tyre does grab it under full flex while running 33 's it might dislocate it, damage it etc

Yeah - you would need to check how close the tyre came to the current underside of the liner. But even gaining another 10mm of space would be worthwhile, given the restriction.

And is it possible to re-route the yellow pipe/cable to gain further space?

[TheTree]

[QUOTE=DANMAL;2182086]80271[/

what's the yellow pipe/cable? Can't recall seeing that on mine. QUOTE]

Hi

That yellow wrapped stuff is the crash sensor / airbag cabling so not something to be trifled with !

Steve

[TheTree]

I'll be pulling off my guard this week too and have a starring session again haha

Hi

While you are staring could you see if there is any chance of ftting an inline precleaner like this one?

https://dynamic.donaldson.com/WebStore/search/item_detail.html'section=10107&item=667616

I suspect it will be a little to large :(

Thanks
Steve

[DANMAL]

Hi

While you are staring could you see if there is any chance of ftting an inline precleaner like this one?

https://dynamic.donaldson.com/WebStore/search/item_detail.html'section=10107&item=667616

I suspect it will be a little to large :(

Thanks
Steve

I don't think you'll be fitting that inside guard plus like Sean said how are you going to access it

[TheTree]

I don't think you'll be fitting that inside guard plus like Sean said how are you going to access it

Hi

I didn't think it would fit but as I said in reply to Sean they are self cleaning so there would be no need to access it.

Edit: Looks like an intake sock and/or flyscreen is the only option

Steve

[FANTOM P38]

Hi Mate

It seems the modern ones are self cleaning

Filter Cross Reference - Toolbox - Tech Talk | Donaldson Australia (http://www.donaldsontoolbox.com.au/tech-talk/pre-cleaners/)

As for space I don't have any idea!

Steve
Steve
Hey Steve I can assure you there is NO SPACE anywhere in there for pre cleaner, I am thinking about trying the Donaldson Spinning type but for now I will fit Safari Snorkel Top

[FANTOM P38]

[QUOTE=DANMAL;2182086]80271[/

what's the yellow pipe/cable? Can't recall seeing that on mine. QUOTE]

Hi Sean, there's nothing to be gained effectively if you re routed the wire.
When Moulding the pvc pipe we did take advantage of the step created above the liner & below chassis rail so as to minimise any airflow restriction.
I agree with Sam that the Silicone hose would close in too much once gaurd is fitted.
Steve as far as the convoluted tubing you are looking at my thoughts (conscerns) with this is that to fit into position it would almost certainly be laying in a flattened position and would be far more restrictive than what we now have with PVC.

[clubagreenie]

If you're talking spiral wound silicon tube (like the blue bends etc) it won't collapse, but a convoluted spiral wire reinforced hose will need to be deformed to shape.

As for PVC and heat, anything on a car will be in the sun long enough that it won't matter what its made of.

I'd use rect section PVC downpipe, adapt at either end to round and use whatever for the snorkel and silicon bends to the airbox.

Guys, were talking 4.6l making what, approx 60hp/l? Nitpick the stuff the effects performance. The ecu adapts to air intake temps regardless of how cold the air you stuff in there is.

Nitpick calculating negative offseting the crank and matching bore increases to maintain capacity whike increasing revs while allowing to decrease main size to Honda B16 mains to reduce oil shear. Its a P38 brick.

[TheTree]

If you're talking spiral wound silicon tube (like the blue bends etc) it won't collapse, but a convoluted spiral wire reinforced hose will need to be deformed to shape.

As for PVC and heat, anything on a car will be in the sun long enough that it won't matter what its made of.

I'd use rect section PVC downpipe, adapt at either end to round and use whatever for the snorkel and silicon bends to the airbox.



Hi

I am not concerned there will be any noticeable air intake restriction just looking for the easiest way to do the job.

The rectangular down pipe is 100 x 65 mm and I am not sure if that wil fit.

I assumed FANTOM would have used that instead of deforming a tube if the rectangular stuff fitted

Maybe its the 100mm size which is too big

Steve

Steve

[clubagreenie]

Well that sucks, but anyway, you can move the SRS cabling. Just follow the procedures for isolating the system as if you'd remove an airbag etc.

[DT-P38]

Great stuff Martin and Sam.

I hope you've bought 3 of everything while your playing with it all.

:D

[FANTOM P38]

Rectangular PVC is available in 100x50 but even that wont fit!
Sorry but it's round or nothing! Gives most flexibility in regards to deforming as well as then connecting at each end to bends with minimum joins
(read potential leakage points).
Just waiting for s/steel to arrive so I can have another play & post up more pics.;)

[Gippslander]

Hello all i have been pondering the Snorkel issue for some time and was wondering, the standard exhaust is 2" the inlet MAF appears to be 2 1/2" why do we need 3" inlet piping?
On that note i grabbed a piece of 2 1/2" exhaust pipe and inserted it between the guard and engine bay wall on a wrecked P38 i have in the yard and it fits, with clearance so if you need 3" going up the window pillar for aesthetic appeal that's fine it can be reduced inside the mud guard so it still looks hot or whatever outside. I have a rough idea that the inner guard piping would be fine at 2 1/2" and where it goes through the guard it can be made 3" with a nice close 90 degree bend then led up the guard to a 15 degree bend to allow fitment to the window frame and a nice 15 degree bend at the top to accept a suitable top like from Safari or similar. I will be pursuing this in the weeks to come.
Just a thought folks here are the pictures of the exhaust pipe in place. Some of you can maybe run the numbers on air flow i don't believe there will be any problem these are not race engines.
Gippy:)

[TheTree]

Hi

I just checked my 99 4.6L and the inlet is 3" (75mm) so 2 1/2 (65mm) is not going to be big enough. It is 33 cm sq and we need 44 cm sq cross section.

It seems to me the squashed PVC may well be the go for those of use who need the 44 cm sq cross sectional area.

A rectangle of 65 mm x 70 will will provide the needed area so a cut down rectangular section may well be able to be used as well.

Steve

[Gippslander]

Is that the outside dimension Steve i will measure mine internally tomorrow.
Thanks for the input.
Gippy:)

[FANTOM P38]

Hello all i have been pondering the Snorkel issue for some time and was wondering, the standard exhaust is 2" the inlet MAF appears to be 2 1/2" why do we need 3" inlet piping?
On that note i grabbed a piece of 2 1/2" exhaust pipe and inserted it between the guard and engine bay wall on a wrecked P38 i have in the yard and it fits, with clearance so if you need 3" going up the window pillar for aesthetic appeal that's fine it can be reduced inside the mud guard so it still looks hot or whatever outside. I have a rough idea that the inner guard piping would be fine at 2 1/2" and where it goes through the guard it can be made 3" with a nice close 90 degree bend then led up the guard to a 15 degree bend to allow fitment to the window frame and a nice 15 degree bend at the top to accept a suitable top like from Safari or similar. I will be pursuing this in the weeks to come.
Just a thought folks here are the pictures of the exhaust pipe in place. Some of you can maybe run the numbers on air flow i don't believe there will be any problem these are not race engines.
Gippy:)

Hi Gippslander,
I assumed that min flow would need to 3" due to inlet & outlet of airbox.
Also the exhaust may only be 2" but there are 2 of them.
Maybe I should also have measured the inlet & outlet of MAF.
2 1/2" sounds a bit restrictive but I'll reserve comment if someone can calculate flow rates!
Does your guinea pig have the inner liner fitted as that is the main concern as I didn't want to remove mine!

[FANTOM P38]

Hi

I just checked my 99 4.6L and the inlet is 3" (75mm) so 2 1/2 (65mm) is not going to be big enough. It is 33 cm sq and we need 44 cm sq cross section.

It seems to me the squashed PVC may well be the go for those of use who need the 44 cm sq cross sectional area.

A rectangle of 65 mm x 70 will will provide the needed area so a cut down rectangular section may well be able to be used as well.

Steve

Hi Steve, I would steer clear of rectangular for couple of reasons.
Even if it would mould to pass chassis & inner liner ( which I think would be more difficult than round pipe)
You also then need to bend to fit between chassis & Gaurd.
Also you then need to change to round to match up to bends at each end anyway, just seems like way more work to me for no real gain.

[TheTree]

Hi

I measured the inside diameter of the MAF section with digital verniers :angel:

Steve

[TheTree]

Hi Steve, I would steer clear of rectangular for couple of reasons.
Even if it would mould to pass chassis & inner liner ( which I think would be more difficult than round pipe)
You also then need to bend to fit between chassis & Gaurd.
Also you then need to change to round to match up to bends at each end anyway, just seems like way more work to me for no real gain.

Hi

Yes more bits = more leaks plus more work for rectangular

I was thinking the molded/rectangular section would only be the piece which goes through the tight section of the guard. The rest would be silicone air intake duct

Steve

[FANTOM P38]

Hi

I measured the inside diameter of the MAF section with digital verniers :angel:

Steve

:confused: AND? :confused:

[TheTree]

:confused: AND? :confused:

Oh sorry that was the 3" (75mm) dimension i referenced earlier

Steve

[DANMAL]

Hello all i have been pondering the Snorkel issue for some time and was wondering, the standard exhaust is 2" the inlet MAF appears to be 2 1/2" why do we need 3" inlet piping?
On that note i grabbed a piece of 2 1/2" exhaust pipe and inserted it between the guard and engine bay wall on a wrecked P38 i have in the yard and it fits, with clearance so if you need 3" going up the window pillar for aesthetic appeal that's fine it can be reduced inside the mud guard so it still looks hot or whatever outside. I have a rough idea that the inner guard piping would be fine at 2 1/2" and where it goes through the guard it can be made 3" with a nice close 90 degree bend then led up the guard to a 15 degree bend to allow fitment to the window frame and a nice 15 degree bend at the top to accept a suitable top like from Safari or similar. I will be pursuing this in the weeks to come.
Just a thought folks here are the pictures of the exhaust pipe in place. Some of you can maybe run the numbers on air flow i don't believe there will be any problem these are not race engines.
Gippy:)

2.5" won't fit because you don't have the inner liner on in that pic

[DANMAL]

From memory (2 years back) I measured it and it's definitely not 2.5 ... it was 3 - 3.5 I think

[FANTOM P38]

Well I checked today & my stainless snorkel pipe is done, just need to get in there to pick up hopefully before weekend so I can have another play to work out mounting locations for A pillar & cut out gaurd & bonnet:)

[clubagreenie]

I'm giving up on trying to share knowledge acquired over 30+ years of racing, engine development and researching physics and theories of fluid dynamics.

BUT...

IF you had the engine, on an engine dyno, unloaded without the rev limit it has in these vehicles you may reach the limit of flow but there are other restrictions in the system that will affect flow well before (from the start of low in fact) before you reach Vmax of flow. Any ribbed section will create increased laminar flow and make any section effectively reduced in area reduced in size by an amount greater than that which a plain section will be affected at Vmax.

Then look at the power/torque curves of the engine. There's no need to be running it at high RPM's and so reaching areas where flow will be an issue as optimum numbers are well in the mid range of operations.

This topic comes up it seems in every discussion about snorkels. Have a look at the primary inlet on say a RRC or D1 with either the square or round filters. Looking at the square one, off the front there's a bellmouthed tube thats, by comparison to the rest of the inlet tract tiny, BUT, it works because the bellmouth (trumpet curve at the inlet edge) works to increase Vflow and so overcomes the limitation of size (faster flow vs slower larger vol flow). Probably also has an effect on what happens inside the airbox (haven't seen detail on in there) in terms of pattern of flow, distribution of air and so dust particles across the entire filter face, so reducing loading the filter in one place and relying on a smaller area for filtration and having flow restricted by the dust loading in that area of the filter.

Please, without malice, ill will, il feeling and with all respect. Just fit it, you won't feel it in the seat of your pants. You will feed cooler air (albeit compensated by the ECU anyway), cleaner air and keep it out of the water. Which I'd give up "perfect" flow for any day.

[DT-P38]

Well I checked today & my stainless snorkel pipe is done, just need to get in there to pick up hopefully before weekend so I can have another play to work out mounting locations for A pillar & cut out gaurd & bonnet:)
This I gotta see! Text me when you know when you are gonna do it. I will pop over for a sticky beak and moral support when the gas axe comes out!!! ;-)

[FANTOM P38]

This I gotta see! Text me when you know when you are gonna do it. I will pop over for a sticky beak and moral support when the gas axe comes out!!! ;-)

No Gas axe here Dave! Patience & some careful measure cut & grinding I think. Then I'll need to check double skin for gap on back edge of bonnet! :(

[Gippslander]

After taking a second look under the guard this time with the liner inserted i think i will be mounting the Snorkel on the outside all the way from the front and to hell with it. Thanks Danmal i didn't check with liner fitted just thought it followed guard arch i have included two end on pictures with the guard and liner in place for you all to check. Very tight squeeze through the middle section. And mine must be the poverty pack Steve i only have a single exhaust pipe which was 2", it now has a 2 1/2" and only one muffler to bring out that wonderful V8 sound.

Regards Gippy:)

[TheTree]

After taking a second look under the guard this time with the liner inserted i think i will be mounting the Snorkel on the outside all the way from the front and to hell with it. Thanks Danmal i didn't check with liner fitted just thought it followed guard arch i have included two end on pictures with the guard and liner in place for you all to check. Very tight squeeze through the middle section. And mine must be the poverty pack Steve i only have a single exhaust pipe which was 2", it now has a 2 1/2" and only one muffler to bring out that wonderful V8 sound.

Regards Gippy:)

Hi

Yes the middle section is the bit we are all exercising our "little grey cells" over, it's bloody tight in there!

Personally I am not interested in, or expecting, any power increase. My aim is simply to improve the wading abilty of the P38 without effecting the performance.

The way I see it if we can maintain a minimum of around 44 cm sq cross section then that will be fine.

Pretty sure I have a 2" exhaust as well and yeah the rear muffler is gone on mine as well :p

Steve

[Gippslander]

I just did some measuring for all concerned here are the results using inside caliper and digital caliper to take readings. First is the inside of my MAF at its smallest point (70.40mm), second set are of opening for inlet in guard vertical ( 60.00mm) and then horizontal ( 107.12mm) the air filter housing has a rubber insert to go through the opening into the air space created above the wheel arch so it is a little smaller.

Gippy hope it helps for those making components.:)
Couldn't get all photos in will make another mail

[Gippslander]

Last photos hope they help the last two are of the inside of the guard air filter box.

Gippy:)

[TheTree]

Gippy

Thanks for all that work :cool:

It seems either the later models or maybe it's the 4.6L had a different airbox, MAF etc

My MAF "tube" does not taper and the airbox internals look a little different as well

Steve

[Gippslander]

Bit the bullet went up to local welding shop ordered a one piece 3" stainless snorkel tube to go from the front of the guard to the top of the window frame. I am going to drill a 3 1/2" hole in outer guard and fit a 3" 90 degree silicone hose through the guard and onto an adapter fitted in the air box inlet. I will take photos as i go and show you all the end result. I am aware the internal route may look better but it seems a lot of trouble when i can do this, also all the other brands of 4 wheel drives have various designed snorkels which extend to the front of the vehicle as long as it is water tight i will be happy.:)

[TheTree]

Hi

KeithyP38 has a stainless snorkel which runs along the outside of the guard, he posted a pic here a while ago.

It looks pretty good

Steve

[Keithy P38]

Here's mine... Andy has one the same (almost exactly)!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/p38a-range-rover/63589d1375171747-snorkel-p38-blue-range-rover-068.jpg

Takes a beating too (I put the car on a lean and the snorkel took a lot of weight with not damage).

Cheers
Keithy

[olbod]

keithy that snorkle is great.
But regardless of how effective it is some folk will be put off by its appearance.
Now if it were mine I would colour coat it.
At first glance it would be invisible.
Second look people would think, by cripes I like that, I want one.

Me too, what size is it and what did it cost to have the thing made and would he do it again ?

[Keithy P38]

Cheers mate, it's always good to get opinions! The look does not phase me! I was tempted to paint it, but that raw stainless steel look has grown on me!

I got it done at Ado's Exhaust and Fabrication in Townsville. He did it in less than 2 days and it cost me $750. I'm pretty certain he'd do it again too. He is very open to ideas as well - he suggested a few things and asked if I wanted any particular angles or features.

Cheers
Keithy

[olbod]

Cheers mate, it's always good to get opinions! The look does not phase me! I was tempted to paint it, but that raw stainless steel look has grown on me!

I got it done at Ado's Exhaust and Fabrication in Townsville. He did it in less than 2 days and it cost me $750. I'm pretty certain he'd do it again too. He is very open to ideas as well - he suggested a few things and asked if I wanted any particular angles or features.

Cheers
Keithy

Ok thanks.
I have made a note of that and I will talk to The Bro about it.
I would have it slightly different at the top so I could fit a Safari type head on it.

[Keithy P38]

I'm sure he could sort that for you no worries!

[Gippslander]

As promised today i made the insert for the air filter box and a back plate to screw to the inner guard to support the internal pipe and insert. Here are the photos. I measured the intake area and transfered that to a piece of card board i then bent a piece of flat iron to shape. Next i got a piece of flat to make a cut out i will weld the insert into the plate the i have folded a piece of 3" stainless pipe which will be welded to the other side of the flat this will be connected to the actual snorkel tubing by the silicone 90 degree bend purchased from Supercheap photos to follow next week as the welder is yet to make the external tubing. Cost so far is $40.00 for hose and clamps, $15.00 in scrap steel, $60.00 Snorkel ram air top from Autobarn. Two hours in the backyard for labour.

Gippy:)

[FANTOM P38]

Well done Gippy!
Looking good, I just picked up my length of 3" stainless with bend so I guess I'll be doing some more work on mine tomorrow. Hope to be able to get top of guard & rear of bonnet cut & test fit everything & with any luck can take pipe back into exhaust guy to have mount tabs fitted & top adjusted to fit Safari Top:):)

[olbod]

Well done Gippy!
Looking good, I just picked up my length of 3" stainless with bend so I guess I'll be doing some more work on mine tomorrow. Hope to be able to get top of guard & rear of bonnet cut & test fit everything & with any luck can take pipe back into exhaust guy to have mount tabs fitted & top adjusted to fit Safari Top:):)


G'day.
With these stainless pipes that are being discussed and used, are they mandrel bent or just the run of the mill type bend with varying diameter differences ?

Ta.

[Gippslander]

i believe mine are to be mandrel bent but having said that i have only one main bend in the design as i am using a Silicone rubber 90 degree bend at the start. I will photograph all pieces when they are finished for assembly and after installation. My particular unit may be a bit agricultural to the others as i am not too worried about appearance considering the faded paint and pin striping the car has already i may make extensions to the bull bar to create wrap arounds so they protect the snorkel still pondering that.

Regards Gippy

[clubagreenie]

Looking at this pic,

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Why not use the big tube already there? Plug the small holes, drill an inlet and outlet. "Factory" snorkel ducting.

[TheTree]

Looking at this pic,

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Why not use the big tube already there? Plug the small holes, drill an inlet and outlet. "Factory" snorkel ducting.

Great idea, I assume that tube is there for reinforcement

Steve

[benji]

I couldn't bring myself to cut a sizeable hole in a body member though.

Sent from my GT-I9305T using AULRO mobile app

[FANTOM P38]

G'day.
With these stainless pipes that are being discussed and used, are they mandrel bent or just the run of the mill type bend with varying diameter differences ?

Ta.
Mine is mandrel bent at lower end, however it was difficult to provide exact dimensions to get top bend for Safari top in exact location so that will likely be cut & welded to fit.

[FANTOM P38]

Looking at this pic,

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/p38a-range-rover/80271-teaser-week-uploadfromtaptalk1405041465054.jpg?amp;d=140504146 7

Why not use the big tube already there? Plug the small holes, drill an inlet and outlet. "Factory" snorkel ducting.:
I did give that some thought for all but a few seconds: Too many potential leak points - not to mention possibly weakening a frame member
dont think that would go down well with insurance.

[FANTOM P38]

Well lots of progress made this weekend although not quite finished.
One major snag that I had not forseen was joint between silicone bend & bottom of stainless snorkel pushing measurements out by about 15mm,
resulting in guard not aligning with front door skin ( ie stepped out ),
So some reworking of stainless with plenty of heat & hammer required.
Now it looks as though it may finally work, fit & look right.
Also cut slots in windscreen trim to allow for locating tabs, just need to have those welded to snorkel & have top section cut & welded to take snorkel head. will post up some more pics soon.
Nearing the end now hopefully can get these done in next few days.
Then last job will be to take to my painter to be colour matched to body.

[FANTOM P38]

Almost there. :)
Everything is ready to go now for final assembly, I will hold off on painting for now just in case I like the stainless look.
Here are a few more pics of the finished components now.
Hope to get time to put it all together in next few days.

[davidsonsm]

Looking like a happening thing. Looking forward to splashdown!

[Hoges]

I couldn't bring myself to cut a sizeable hole in a body member though.

Sent from my GT-I9305T using AULRO mobile app

Naah... body piercings are not my style either :eek:

[Gippslander]

Looking good i hope to have my pieces finished this week also.:)

Gippy

[Gippslander]

Okay today i managed to have the stainless steel tube welded to the air intake insert so i now have a piece of plate with steel tubes welded to either side . One side inserts internally to the air box, i have siliconed this in place i then installed two locating screws on the flat plate to fix it to the inner guard. The stainless steel pipe which has been squashed to mate with the flat plate and the shape of the inlet to the air filter. I drilled and cut the guard to allow the external piping to be attached. Unfortunately the welding could not be completed today the local welding shop was doing the job in between more important work so i was sidelined today. I did inspect the piping and it is of a very high quality they are to fit the location tabs tomorrow morning and i hope to install the completed pieces. I have supplied some photos of today's work. And i think a couple of thought provoking ones do you think a short snorkel would make a hit check out the photo's in the second post:D.

Gippy:)

[TheTree]

nice work Gippy :D

I'd still like to go inside the guard though!

Steve

[Gippslander]

Well i got that wrong with the post numbers here is what should be the second post showing a different approach to snorkel for a P38 A do you think it could take off.:D

Gippy:)

[TheTree]

Well i got that wrong with the post numbers here is what should be the second post showing a different approach to snorkel for a P38 A do you think it could take off.:D

Gippy:)

I had thought about something like that, removable so you only fit it when you need it

Steve

[DT-P38]

Well i got that wrong with the post numbers here is what should be the second post showing a different approach to snorkel for a P38 A do you think it could take off.:D Gippy:)
I really like the idea of a temporary set up. Have even looked at using a two way ball valve before the air cleaner with a secondary (& somewhat constricted) air feed from within the cabin. it is possible to go through the fire wall using the LH drive steering column hole.

Obviously for limited, temporary use only. Not like we do that many deep and wide river crossings anyway.

[p38arover]

KeithyP38 has a stainless snorkel which runs along the outside of the guard, he posted a pic here a while ago.

It looks pretty good


:eek:

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - I now have to go and wash out my eyes!

When PaulP38A was doing his development work, I had thought about offering mine as a development mule but then realised that nothing along the outside could ever look good so I dropped out.

[TheTree]

My idea was to have the hole there and put a removable cover on it, like one from a Disco or later RR

That could then be removed and the riser fitted when needed. How to make sure the riser doesn't come loose is another issue!

Steve

[Keithy P38]

It grows on you!

Doesn't look bad in my opinion, just different!

Had a bloke come up to me a while back and ask why I've run my exhaust outside the front guard and onto the roof - he was genuinely concerned that I was putting exhaust fumes into the cabin :-)

[benji]

I suppose some ute owners run the truck stacks up to the roof.. You could always get a mirror made up and run the exhaust up the drivers side pillar... :)

Gippslander, do you remember when 4wd monthly did that comparison, and Glen had Camilla?

Sent from my GT-I9305T using AULRO mobile app

[Gippslander]

I do not remember Camilla do you have a issue number to look for so i can see it.
Gippy:)

[FANTOM P38]

Couldn't wait till tomorrow so I had a quick fit up before dinner.
Apologies for poor light in photo but will finish job tomorrow and take some better pics.
Fit is awesome - neat as! very happy. Just need to silicone inner & outer joints to airbox & refit guard & jobs done.:)

[FANTOM P38]

forgot to attach photo!:p

[Keithy P38]

Looking good man

[DT-P38]

It looks very cool in the flesh. Painted black it will blend in better than any other P38 snorkel out there.

[Gippslander]

I installed the snorkel this morning i will have the welder make a couple of small adjustments for finalised alignment other than that i am happy i believe i wil change the bright blue hose for a dark one and probably paint the piping black stainless is quite bright and seems out of place on the old girl.

Gippy:)

[Gippslander]

What a difference colour makes painted hose black and it changes the whole thing i will now leave it as is.

Gippy:)

[davidsonsm]

forgot to attach photo!:p
A significant achievement. Well done that man.

[FANTOM P38]

Well - FINALLY!! Jobs complete :D:D:D

Did all the finicky finishing off bits today to get the job done, must say Im sooo pleased with end result!

Here are final pics!

[p38arover]

forgot to attach photo!:p
A significant achievement. Well done that man.

What? Attaching a photo? :angel:

[FANTOM P38]

And the rest!!

[p38arover]

A damn sight better looking than Keithy's or Gippslanders!

[mtb_gary]

And the rest!!
Great result! Looking that good I might even reconsider not putting one on mine! Well done for raising the bar! ;)

Gary

[Scouse]

A damn sight better looking than Keithy's or Gippslanders!https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/07/217.jpg

[davidsonsm]

A damn sight better looking than Keithy's or Gippslanders!
Well Ron. You're certainly forthright.

[p38arover]

Well Ron. You're certainly forthright.

Yep. See http://www.aulro.com/afvb/2190963-post116.html

Scouse, would you be happy if you were being forced to take an overseas holiday? :(

[DT-P38]

And the rest!!

paint it black tomorrow if you have a spare half hour

[DT-P38]

A damn sight better looking than Keithy's or Gippslanders!

no offence to the aforementioned, but 110% true.

[FANTOM P38]

Went to panelbeater today & he reckons if i paint body colour it may end up with lots of scratches on it:confused:
So I picked up more Plasti Dip, but I think I'll hold off on that to see if the stainless look grows on me. It would be easier to keep looking good I think!

[Gippslander]

Very neat job Phantom it looks great.

Gippy:)

[Pete38]

Looking great Phantom. I'll eventually get round to measuring mine up and going the same route as you.

[Scouse]

Scouse, would you be happy if you were being forced to take an overseas holiday? :(You're not being forced to do anything - having decisions made for you is just part of married life.




:D

[FANTOM P38]

Looking great Phantom. I'll eventually get round to measuring mine up and going the same route as you.

Thanks Pete, looks simple enough but it is much more fiddy than I thought but with patience & persistence it's worth the effort.
I have noted angles for anyone interested just PM me.

[Keithy P38]

Looks amazing mate! Grab a beer and enjoy staring at it for a few hours!

Point taken Ron - doesn't float everyone's boat, but it's not going to change! Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Cheers
Keithy

[Rage Over]

Fantom, how did you get the lower-front bolt out for the guard with the ARB bar in place? I noticed a lot of scratched paint in one of your photos in that spot.

My bar was a pain in the proverbial to get on, I do not want to remove it just to get the guard off...

EDIT: By the way, I love both yours and Gippslander's (with the black painted silicone, not the original ricey blue :p) snorkels.

[FANTOM P38]

Fantom, how did you get the lower-front bolt out for the guard with the ARB bar in place? I noticed a lot of scratched paint in one of your photos in that spot.

Hi Rage Over,
that is an awkward one hence some scratches once loose i managed to bend brkt up slightly to get bolt out. When refitting I removed indicator assembly which made lining up & tightening much easier.