Alternator Failure?

[tiojeffe]

Hi, good evening.

Whilst driving the car to get our daughter from school the battery light came on, followed by medium strength electrical smell (the one that makes you go what smell is that?). She made it home (8 min round trip) but when I got home to check 20 minuets later she would not start at all. I jumped it from the Yellow top Optima (2nd battery) but upon removal of the leads the engine stalled right away followed by the smell my wife described.

I think the alternator is shorted out internally or something. The mega fuse is still ok though.

I have the main battery (12 months old) on charge linked to a big jump battery so that is charging right now with no obvious fault.

Any ideas people or has this happened to others?

[sheerluck]

You'll find a fair few alternator stories on here and Disco3.

Don't scrimp on the replacement though.

[Graeme]

I think the alternator is shorted out internally or something. The mega fuse is still ok though. LR stuffed-up the wiring for the alternator by attaching the B+ cable to the starter motor which needs a 500A fuse which means that a shorting alternator will not blow the fuse, flattening the battery and risking a fire instead.

[bbyer]

LR stuffed-up the wiring for the alternator by attaching the B+ cable to the starter motor which needs a 500A fuse which means that a shorting alternator will not blow the fuse, flattening the battery and risking a fire instead.Combining the alternator feed and the starter feed has the appearance of an elegant design.

Thanks to Graeme above, the light goes now on given that I had never before seen a vehicle alternator and starter wiring design where the conductors were common, (except on something where the alternator and starter were the same item.)

On vehicles I was used to, a thick conductor ran between the battery and starter and a second relatively thin one between the battery and alternator. In the case of the 3, while as I said, appearing to be an elegant looking design, I wondered if there was some major downside.

I had never thought about fusing of the alternator - that is major, and explains why a bad alternator seems to cause such unusual problems.

Is it still the same on the D4? I assume so. "Never say you are sorry."

Land Rover ......

[tiojeffe]

Thanks,

Definitely dead alternator then?

I charged the battery, put it back in and when the battery terminals were put back on the voltage plummeted. Direct short I take it.

I have never seen anything like it though. It is the fact there is no fuse huh?

So is it hard to replace?

[bbyer]

Graeme is the expert on this but the 500 amp fuse is probably OK.

It is so big it does not normally blow but instead allows the battery to be sucked dead as a result of an internal short in the alternator.

Internal shorts in an alternator are kind of a normal failure mode; a circuit design that allows the battery to be sucked dead is not.

In other words, as above, I expect the fuse is still good but the alternator, not.

[Geedublya]

The alternator is fairly easy to replace. The only difficult part is removing the viscous fan. You come in from the top behind the radiator.
A search on here will show up some examples.
They are pricey buggers though, I paid $430 when I did mine, since then they seem to be closer to $600.


http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/173434-d3-alternator-replacement.html (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/173434-d3-alternator-replacement.html)

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/69060-tdv6-alternator-replacement.html

http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic54774.html

[Graeme]

Same on the 3.0 in the D4! I haven't finished mine's conversion, with a 200A fuse (3.0 alternator rated at 180A) waiting for the separate cable to be installed. The delay is due to the 3.0's top radiator hose having to be removed and that I haven't yet worked out how to remove the top fan shield.

Ford Aust did a proper job of fitting a separate cable on the 2.7 in the Territory.

[Meken]

Yes why can't an inline fuse be installed at the connection of the cable to the alternator? Seems the logical fix - then again will an internal short blow a 200amp fuse?

[Rich84]

Seems to be a very common fault indeed and they all seem to die in the same way - battery light, smell, whirring noise - mine went at about 160K. 08MY RRS.


Alternators on other cars I've had seem to last longer:
-my Pintara TRX is on to its third alternator at 435K, the original died at 313K and the replacement I bought from a wrecker lasted until 435K.
-my missus' Audi B5 A4 1.8T is at 320K on original alternator
-my Audi B5 S4 is still on its original at 260K
-my current daily Audi A4's original alt lasted 270K. Now at 300K.


That said, very easy to job to replace it; the visco fan being a little bit tricky but with a bit of colourful language I've always been able to get it off.

[Graeme]

Yes why can't an inline fuse be installed at the connection of the cable to the alternator? Seems the logical fix - then again will an internal short blow a 200amp fuse?I considered fitting a fuse in the existing cable but then decided it wouldn't be a good enough spot exposed to mud and water and difficult to fit in the first place, most likely requiring the alternator to be removed to disconnect the cable so that terminals can be fitted.

An short circuit of the diodes in an alternator rated at 180A may require an even higher rated fuse than 200A (because at times it may exceed LR's specs) so I have acquired a 225A fuse as backup. With the 3.0's alternator's internal wiring capable of sustaining 180A output, a short circuit caused by 1 or more of its Zener diodes reverse conducting (due to age & load induced fatigue lowering its trigger voltage, originally around 30V) should allow more than 180A to flow. A quick check of the fuse in the Territory against its alternator's rated o/p would confirm the required fuse.

[tiojeffe]

Thank you everyone.

Your help has been just what i needed to know to know what is needed ;-)

I have ordered the alternator through Ashdown Ingram and as such it will be a OEX unit.

I will put it in tomorrow night or Saturday morning.

I will keep you posted.

Thanks again, much appreciated.

Carlos

[tiojeffe]

So,

Overnighted the alternator from Ashdown Ingram from Perth.

Went about the removal and replacement. I did not remove any hoses only two bolt/screws that were holding the coolant pipe that passes in front of the alternator. This gave enough room to wiggle the alternator past. I did have to turn the viscous fan bolt clockwise too. Anyhow, I try to put the belt back on and bam-bow. Six rib places not eight. Lucky I thought to tackle the job tonight so I can see wether I can swap the pulleys over somewhere tomorrow morning. Very disappointed indeed!

Also the alternator casting is not as neatly done as the denso and is rated at 150 Amps not 180 Amps as described somewhere here....
81455

[tiojeffe]

81456

[tiojeffe]

81457

81458

[bbyer]

It looks like you were wise enough to look at the pulley before you installed the alternator. Most end up wondering why what was a perfectly good belt is later in tatters. In some cases, by the time they notice, the removed alternator has been sent back.

Normally the pulleys are just swapped and problem solved.

On my 2005 LR3, the alternator is rated at 150 amps and I think that is what most 3's have.

I think the D4 alternator is now 180 amps, probably what the alternator on the 3 should have been.

[tiojeffe]

yeah,

The pulley changed right over and all was sweet. Charged the battery with a 25 amp charger and it bought it back from the dead.

The only problem now is that every few days the battery warning light comes on for less then a minute and today it came on three times and only when beginning to accelerate.

Could something be cooked?

Carlos

[bbyer]

The odds are all is good except that the battery state of charge is still low.

The electrical system computers have some sort of emissions related accessory low power cut off cycle feature.

As such, you can never really trust what the regulator and the engine computer is telling each other. Once upon a time, regulators told the alternator what to do based on battery voltage and some would even instruct the engine to speed up a bit at idle; now the engine computer tells components such as heated seats, radio amplifiers etc to shut down or cycle, and tells the regulator to minimize alternator output and suck instead from the battery. What this effectively means is the battery never gets fully charged no matter how much you drive.

As such, at least twice a year, for about a week at a time, every night I connect my battery, (actually both battery's), to my CTEK charger.

It seems to take a week of nightly charges on each battery to get them back up to where the CTEK is happy.

In other words, while there might be something wrong, first just try a week of battery charging at a low charge rate.

[tiojeffe]

So your saying that it might be related to a low battery charge?

I thought it meant there is a fault with the charging system?

We have found that the battery does start the car slower and slower over time - 1 year. Sounds like the top up charge is a good way to go though.

[bbyer]

I would say there is a lot of debate about what the red battery light illuminating on the dash really indicates. As with all things LR and electrical, there is always much discussion.

Myself, I think LR in their desire to be on the cutting edge of design back in 2003/4, got too smart for themselves.

The PWM regulator design within the alternator is now only starting to get common on new vehicles and then add that common starter and alternator cable to the design, and you have added alot of variables when bits start to weaken.

There is nothing really wrong with the design when all is brand new and working well, it is just as parts get older that the potential variables start to create problems never seen before.

Anyway, a fully charged battery has solved many strange electrical problems on the 3. If you purchase a new battery, same thing, charge it for a week on the vehicle after you install it.

[justinc]

Oex units may possibly use slightly incompatible voltage regulators, I.e. the oem denso alternator is designed specifically for the application. Hence the previous comment about not scrimping on the replacement :-( . Jc

[bbyer]

Thanks for the warning re the regulator within the rebuilt units being perhaps different from Denso factory units.


I must say I find the whole question of the regulator to be one of those mystery parts.

About all I could find available was something manufactured by Transpo called an IN6349 and that is for the newer alternators, YLE500390 part number and better.

For the older alternators, part number YLE500190, such as was on my 2005 LR3, the regulator was a Regitar VRH2005-142 that is physically different in shape from the IN6349 regulators and as such, are the end caps on the alternators, (no shiny regulator cooling fins showing on the newer alternators).

I never did find a Denso part number for a Denso regulator however.

Maybe the rebuilders cannot find one either.

[tiojeffe]

The alternator i fitted was new not rebuilt.

Now the car is at the dealers and they say the transmission fault code was due to excessive voltage.

Could the battery cable from the alternator have melted wires close to it when it shorted and drained the battery so fast?

I now must assume the alternator is not built with the right goodies inside of it to regulate the voltage... the castings looking poor should have set off the warning bells.

Time for a kluger i think :-(

[bbyer]

The replacement alternator not working could be just bad luck.

When my original alternator failed, I had the local alternator shop install a Wilson WAI rebuilt. It worked fine for a week and then failed. They replaced it for free and also ended up installing a new alternator belt as upon startup and testing, they realized the pulley had the wrong groove count and that destroyed the original belt.

That required removal of the alternator and switching pulleys; two years later, the alternator is still OK. I gather the shop does not intend to install Land Rover logos on their front window.

I have a ScanGauge II monitor connected full time to my OBD port, hence I can watch the system voltage. In my case, both alternator failures were what I regarded as regulator failures rather than generator failures.

I began to note that the Scangauge II was displaying a fixed voltage of about 13 volts, rather than the voltage fluctuating between say 13.5 and 14.9 volts. I regarded the static voltage as some default charge rate built into the system.


We have daytime running lights here and I have the fancy radio with the big amp but power generated was always enough to supply all but charging of the battery seemed to suffer more than usual. My Traxide system tended to mask that as well. What this meant to me was that where there was no routine visual voltage monitoring of the system, one could drive for months thinking all was fine. Watching the voltage readout was how I determined the first replacement alternator was probably defective as well. For the first week voltage readouts were as one would expect - they varied, and then after the first week, they went static again.

In other words, your next alternator may be OK and there is nothing else wrong with your 3 - it was just bad luck.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/747.jpg

[tiojeffe]

So the dealership found the code TCM P0563 System High Voltage and now I definitely suspect the alternator is doing the wrong thing.

Will a Denso replacement suffice? Or do I shell out and pay $1200 for a Genuine land rover unit?

The dealer quoted $1497.35 ... !!!

Ebay has a lot of not real denso units and a few that look legit but who knows.

Where in Australia can we get a good honest product for a good honest price?

[sheerluck]

Denso is the way to go. You may need to import to get a decent price. This mob here are good
DAN 987 ALTERNATOR 2 7TDV6 BRAND NEW DENSO AS O E YLE500200 (http://www.advancedfactors.co.uk/dan-987-alternator-27tdv6-brand-new-denso-x28as-oex29-yle500200-74-p.asp)

[tiojeffe]

Thanks Sheerluck,

I have been quoted RO-YLE500400

Are you sure the 200 is the right one?

[sheerluck]

Thanks Sheerluck,

I have been quoted RO-YLE500400

Are you sure the 200 is the right one?

400 superseded 200. They've just got the old part number. Drop them an email if you're worried, but ~$400 delivered is better than $1400!

[bbyer]

You might find this older thread interesting. It shows how these alternators are just plain a problem. About a dozen posts down on the first page, the post by The Large One, as below, about sums it up.

LR have withdrawn the exch unit from sale because of quality issues
advising only new replacement which surprise surprise is now out of stock https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/708.jpg

DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Denso Alternator shortage - Issue resolved (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic107099.html)

Even Land Rover acknowledges it is having problems and their solution is only Denso brand new.

[sheerluck]

And it also shows the aversion to anything that is not Denso as well. Seems Denso is the best solution by a long chalk.

[bremund]

I think this is the trade price from the dealer due to it being a warranty job.

ROYLE5040 ALTERNATOR-ASY 1020.93
ROLR03179 BATERY-DIESEL 511.99
LABOUR 440
TOTAL FOR JOB 1972.92

[tiojeffe]

Sadly, This is not a warranty price. The car is long out of warranty. The NT is savage for being expensive.

Were going to by a tarago for family duty's now. No more european vehicles that are not suited to the tropics...

[Geedublya]

I'm a little confused.. what does a failing alternator (a problem which I have had happen on a number of cars) have to do with the tropics?

You can purchase an OEM alternator from Karcraft here in Sydney for a lot less than the Landrover price.

[tiojeffe]

The climate up here is much harsher on the vehicles overall. The plastics go quicker the paint fades faster, hoses go brittle faster etc. Japanese built cars are much hardier.

[Glynhouse]

Come in a bit late on this one but I do have a thread specifically on this.

My D3 stopped half way across an intersection in Brisbane, May last year, all sorts of hassles getting it off the road, I unthinkingly threw it into park ! With a flat battery you can't take it out of park so flat top was no use - he had left his jumper pack at the last job he left in a hurry to clear me from the road, we were totally blocking 2 major roads !

Came down to the alternator was kaput ! Just found the invoice from a guy in North Brisbane new alternator Denso, total bill including labour $765.00 still going fine.
Did the job the next day for me, had plenty to say about Denso, up to mid 2000's excellent stuff, was surprised mine had gone but he was the service agent for the RACQ, Denso was his main business at present mainly on Camrys, said they kept him in business, he thought the D3's was the same one but a diff regulator and pulley.

DD

[Meken]

Sounds very inconvenient

[Graeme]

With a flat battery you can't take it out of park so flat top was no useThere is a release button on the shift mechanism accessible near the park brake emergency release cable. Its a small white lever at the right rear corner of the mechanism that needs to be lifted and held to allow the lever to be moved from park.
Also there have been many instances of D3s being dragged with wheels locked onto a flat-top when neither the vehicle driver nor the tow truck driver knows how to get the shifter out of park.

[bbyer]

There is a release button on the shift mechanism accessible near the park brake emergency release cable. Its a small white lever at the right rear corner of the mechanism that needs to be lifted and held to allow the lever to be moved from park.
Also there have been many instances of D3s being dragged with wheels locked onto a flat-top when neither the vehicle driver nor the tow truck driver knows how to get the shifter out of park.Over here, you see flat bed operators dragging GM, Ford and Dodge 4x4 vehicles up onto the bed with all wheels locked. In the winter, they slide up almost willingly, but in the summer, it is an ugly sight and sound - mechanically, they seem to survive OK however.

They then wrap chains thru the wheel spokes and off they bounce.

It is a real incentive to attempt preventive maintenance.

[tiojeffe]

Well,

Still waiting on Advance Factors UK to give me any info on whether they have sent the alternator or not. Not very good at communicating, that lot.

Sucks big time to wait so long!!!

[Rich84]

I think this is the trade price from the dealer due to it being a warranty job.

ROYLE5040 ALTERNATOR-ASY 1020.93
ROLR03179 BATERY-DIESEL 511.99
LABOUR 440
TOTAL FOR JOB 1972.92



The price I paid was:
-Denso alternator $501.00
-900cca DIN85L Century battery - $200 (admittedly I got mates rates on that, but only had to replace due to my friend inadvertently twisting off the negative terminal on OEM battery)
-about 30 minutes of my own time to install.

[bremund]

The price I paid was:
-Denso alternator $501.00
-900cca DIN85L Century battery - $200 (admittedly I got mates rates on that, but only had to replace due to my friend inadvertently twisting off the negative terminal on OEM battery)
-about 30 minutes of my own time to install.

I paid $0 :D

Not sure why I was given the paperwork with all the $$$ values there, with Renault they had $0.00 for any warranty work.

[tiojeffe]

Good news!

The wait was not long and the email I missed with the shipping so apologies there folks.

Denso alternator charging at 13.6 volts. Compared to OEX 14.9 ...

Moral of the story; not only does a poor man pay twice but so does an impatient one!

Mind you I did ask my friendly sales rep at Ashdown Ingram "is it good quality?" Of course he said yes...

No more OEX parts for me!

By the way I think it took longer to try to make the positive battery terminal tight then it took to change the alternator...

[101RRS]

Good news!

The wait was not long and the email I missed with the shipping so apologies there folks.

Denso alternator charging at 13.6 volts. Compared to OEX 14.9 ...

Moral of the story; not only does a poor man pay twice but so does an impatient one!

Mind you I did ask my friendly sales rep at Ashdown Ingram "is it good quality?" Of course he said yes...

No more OEX parts for me!

By the way I think it took longer to try to make the positive battery terminal tight then it took to change the alternator...

As I understand it there was nothing wrong with the OEX alternator - it was just not suited to your vehicle - or am I missing something here.

During this thread you have not mentioned what model Disco or what engine. I assumed a D3 with TDV6 and I guess so did most others.

I just looked at the OEX catelogue and they do not list an alternator for the TDV6 at all and for the petrol 4.0 V6 lists two different alternators (one early and one late) and a different alternator again for the V8s.

I suspect you just got the wrong alternator.

Garry

[hutchbb]

Hi Rich 84, Where did you purchase you Denso from?

[ADMIRAL]

What a circus. After a few weeks of on and off whining, I had the D4 half out the garage, listening to the alternator with a stethoscope. After starting and stopping a few times, the D4 became hard to start, would not start and everything went black. Total failure, and a puff of smoke from the alternator. Well at least I had confirmation of the problem source.

Then the circus began, as even with the handbrake disengaged and the transmission in neutral, the vehicle refused to move. This is now 8.00pm and I cannot even get the garage door closed.

I am making an assumption, but it seems that if you have an 'E' diff ( fitted to mine ) it can/will lock up when there is loss of power. I had to jack the rear end up and use rollers under the rear wheels to slide it rearwards out of the garage.

Tomorrow the hunt for a replacement alternator begins. Here's hoping nothing else is damaged. I noticed there was a short across the battery once the alternator had failed. Hopefully I got to it in time. It seems to be responding to a charge.

[AnD3rew]

Sorry a bit late to this thread, but I have had the same experience. This is a major design fault with this car and should never have been allowed to happen.

I saw the alternator light come on and kept driving to home and was getting the burning smell. I got home and turned the car off and went inside to check AULRO saw that leaving the battery connected would drain the battery, but by the time I got out there the main battery was flat. When the flatbed came it was so dead we couldn't shift the car into neutral or release the park brake to winch it up. Pulled the emergency park brake release, and then jumped from the second battery just to get enough juice to put it in park.

Upshot was
New alternator
New main battery (killed one was only about 3 months old:twisted:)
New Llams unit (as old one was killed somehow in the repair process. Greame was a legend in supporting his product on this one, thanks Greame:D)

Terrible design and dangerous if this happened in a remote location.

[Graeme]

even with the handbrake disengaged and the transmission in neutral, the vehicle refused to move. ....I am making an assumption, but it seems that if you have an 'E' diff ( fitted to mine ) it can/will lock up when there is loss of power. I had to jack the rear end up and use rollers under the rear wheels to slide it rearwards out of the garage.It seems more likely that the park brake was still applied. The e-diff would have had no reason to be locked and even if the e-diff was locked the vehicle would still roll unless trying to turn significantly.

Will you be installing a dedicated and appropriately fused alternator power cable to prevent a repeat occurrence?

[Epic pooh]

I'm keen to avoid meltdown when my alternator kicks the bucket ... Can you explain what you mean Graeme in simple terms (ie like I'm five !) ? Would you suggest something preemptive noting my charging system has just turned 10 ?

Thanks in advance !

[Nicky]

It seems more likely that the park brake was still applied. The e-diff would have had no reason to be locked and even if the e-diff was locked the vehicle would still roll unless trying to turn significantly.

Will you be installing a dedicated and appropriately fused alternator power cable to prevent a repeat occurrence?

Logical practical useful post!

[Graeme]

The alternator power lead is connected to the starter motor power lead at the starter motor. The starter motor lead is protected by a 500A fuse at the battery. The problem lies with the 500A fuse being too high to blow if the alternator short circuits. A separate power lead directly from the alternator to a fuse mounted near the battery would allow the use of a fuse rated a little higher than the alternator's maximum output which would blow if the rectifier diodes short circuited. The fuse would need to be rated at least 20A higher than the alternator o/p. For the 3.0's 180A alternator I have chosen 200A with a 210A as a backup when I get to fit the cable to my D4. However I don't know if the 3.0's alternator is fitted with Zener diodes that deteriorate with use and usually fail short circuit rather than open circuit as LR went out to tender for a new alternator for the 3.0. Only some manufacturers use Zener diodes as the main rectifier diodes - others use Zener diodes in the regulator circuit to cause alternator shutdown to protect ecus if the voltage runs away due to the battery becoming disconnected or goes open-circuit.

Ford fitted a distinct alternator lead to the 2.7 fitted to the Territory - they did a proper job!

[Epic pooh]

Much appreciated Graeme. I think I get that explanation !!

[ytt105]

I get the explanation, but how do I do it?

Regards

[BobD]

I tried to get a new alternator for my 3.0l when they did the timing belt, in case there was still a problem like there is with the 2.7's. Apparently there has never been a failure in Australia, with some cars up near 300,000km in Perth, so there may be some hope. However, the bad news is that you can't buy an alternator quickly if they do fail because there are none kept in stock.


I think I will try to work out if it can have the same problem as the 2.7 and if it can, put in the separate fused wire as Graeme suggests. No sure how to check it yet, especially if Graeme hasn't yet worked it out!

[scarry]

Does the 2.7 D4 have the same issue as the D3?

I am sure i read somewhere the D4 2.7 as well as the 3.0 wiring was upgraded.

[Graeme]

I get the explanation, but how do I do it?
Remove the cable from between the alternator and starter motor (cut the end at the starter motor) then run a cable of the same capacity as the original alternator cable parallel to the starter cable as it winds its way around the bottom of the front of the engine to a maxi-fuse that you've mounted near the battery that's connected to the battery positive terminal.

A maxi-fuse holder could probably be installed mid-way along the existing alternator cable if there is adequate access for a crimping tool. That the fuse would be accessed from under the vehicle should not be a problem because ready access is not required.

[LRD414]

For the 3.0's 180A alternator I have chosen 200A with a 210A as a backup when I get to fit the cable to my D4.

However I don't know if the 3.0's alternator is fitted with Zener diodes that deteriorate with use and usually fail short circuit rather than open circuit as LR went out to tender for a new alternator for the 3.0. Only some manufacturers use Zener diodes as the main rectifier diodes - others use Zener diodes in the regulator circuit to cause alternator shutdown to protect ecus if the voltage runs away due to the battery becoming disconnected or goes open-circuit.

Graeme, if I am understanding this, with the right Zener diode design, a failed alternator would not cause the catastrophic battery failure people have experienced. Have I interpreted this correctly? I guess this would be difficult to find out.

Also, I don't understand the 210A backup. Do you mean in case the 200A is not quite big enough once installed & then replace with 210A?

Cheers,
Scott

[RichardK]

I had an alternator failure 4 weeks ago, red light came on as we were leaving an area around Harvey, I thought theres nothing I can do will just have to run on the battery and see how far I can get. Got to Waroona had a look and yes the electrical smell was there but we kept on until just past Placid Ark fuel and all the dash lights lit up telling me that systems were shutting down, we lasted until the rail crossing just south of Pinjarra and that was it no nothing.
Got flatbedded home, on the Sunday I took the battery out and there was absolutely nothing in it, hooked it up to my 1Kva Honda genny and let it run all day, meantime I removed the alternator which was of course kaput, I've since learned that when they give out they aparently short curcuit thus the smell.
Got on to my LR indy on Monday and picked up a new alternator that afternoon (Denso), fitted it to the car Monday night and was back on the road about 8.30 that night.
I'm glad it happened when it did, the car has done just short of 300K and these are the things I need to replace prior to setting out soon.
Cost? Flatbed $220, alternator $690 so I am happy

[Graeme]

Some alternator manufacturers use Zener power diodes to provide the over-voltage shut-down facility whereas others use Zener diodes in the regulator circuit to cause voltage shut-down. Zener diodes, otherwise known as avalanche diodes, conduct in the reverse direction once the voltage exceeds their trigger level. They also deteriorate with use and faster if operated near their maximum current rating whereby the trigger voltage level slowly lowers so eventually will reverse conduct at normal operating voltages.

The 210A is in case the 200A blows in normal use. The 3.0's alternator is rated at a minimum of 180A, as specified by LR. To achieve this the alternator will invariably o/p at a higher rate when cold. Hence a 200A fuse may not be high enough under high load conditions, such as winching in cold weather. However if the fuse rating is too high then the wiring within the alternator may not allow that much current to be drawn so would not blow. Hence one just above the alternator's maximum would seem appropriate. I've been meaning to discover what fuse is used in the Territory and its alternator's o/p as a guide to an appropriate fuse.

[Ean Austral]

This may seem like a stupid question, but could you not fuse the battery end ? It would certainly make it easy to put the fuse in a out of the way place.


This is something that I would be looking at doing, has anyone posted a thread/tutorial of fusing the alternator.




Cheers Ean

[Graeme]

Ideally the battery end should be fused for ease of access, not that the fuse would need to be accessed unless the alternator short-circuited. However if the person investigating the lack of output from the alternator doesn't know that a fuse has been installed in the starter to alternator cable then there would be some time wasted, whereas a separate cable and fuse would be obvious at least during alternator removal.

[PerthDisco]

Thanks so much

I have to do the timing belt at next service so it would seem to be a perfect time to replace the alternator also and do this wiring mod.

I cannot seem to determine what the correct fuse would be for the 2.7?

Richard

[Ean Austral]

So has anyone that has had this failure had any damage occur to the starter motor.


If the starter is getting damaged then its more reason to fuse between the Alternator - Starter.


I am looking at fusing at the battery end unless someone has had starter damage , then I will do it as Graeme suggests.




Cheers Ean

[Graeme]

I hope that you aren't intending to fuse the starter lead as it already has a 500A fuse at the battery.

A hight current draw by the alternator such as due to diodes reverse conducting will have no effect of the starter motor or its solenoid.

[Ean Austral]

I hope that you aren't intending to fuse the starter lead as it already has a 500A fuse at the battery.

A hight current draw by the alternator such as due to diodes reverse conducting will have no effect of the starter motor or its solenoid.


I may have mis-understood the conversation, but I assumed the 500A fuse is part of the issue as it will never blow. If you install a 200A fuse somewhere between the battery and Alternator either before or after the starter if should have the same effect.


As long as you know where the fuse is in case of charging failure the same result should be achieved... Correct ?


Cheers Ean

[Graeme]

I cannot seem to determine what the correct fuse would be for the 2.7?My guess is one about 20A higher than the alternator's rated maximum output current - the 2.7 D4's alternator is rated at 150A @ 25deg C so 170A. Make sure the cable is rated to carry at least that current - don't want to overheat the cable instead of blowing the fuse.

[Graeme]

As long as you know where the fuse is in case of charging failure the same result should be achieved... Correct ?Yes.

[LRD414]

I may have mis-understood the conversation, but I assumed the 500A fuse is part of the issue as it will never blow. If you install a 200A fuse somewhere between the battery and Alternator either before or after the starter if should have the same effect.

As long as you know where the fuse is in case of charging failure the same result should be achieved... Correct ?

Cheers Ean

But if the 200A goes before the starter won't that take over the role of the 500A fuse? Presumably the starter can require more than 200A if it is protected by a 500A fuse?

Cheers, Scott

[Graeme]

I missed that remark.

Either fit a fuse in a new dedicated alternator cable direct from the battery and cut off the short starter to alternator cable where it joins the battery to starter motor cable at the starter motor solenoid or fit a fuse in the short starter to alternator cable. The 500A fuse for the starter motor in the battery to starter motor cable must remain.

[Ean Austral]

After thinking about it I can see the problem with fusing the battery - starter cable , this creates issues with the start circuit.


Fusing the Alternator to starter side fuses the charging circuit, which is the circuit that will stop if the alternator shorts, leaving the start circuit in full normal operation.


the penny has finally dropped.


Cheers Ean

[Graeme]

I finally installed a dedicated alternator B+ cable on my 3.0 today. Its 2m long, enclosed in fluted sheath, cable-tied to the starter cable at various points and is fitted with a 200A fuse just prior to connecting to the battery. My backup/spare fuse is 225A, being the next higher rated one in case 200A isn't quite enough for the 180A-rated alternator.

The alternator B+ stud was accessed from below rather than drain coolant, remove the fan, ancillary belt, tensioner and the alternator. The cable from the starter has yet to be cut off, temporarily held out of harm's way with several cable-ties - a job for another day. Lost some skin but that's mechanicing.

[Ean Austral]

Good stuff Graeme,

Is the D3 2.7 ltr alternator also rated at 180a ? Does anyone know it's rating

Cheers Ean

[LRD414]

I finally installed a dedicated alternator B+ cable on my 3.0 today. Its 2m long, enclosed in fluted sheath, cable-tied to the starter cable at various points and is fitted with a 200A fuse just prior to connecting to the battery. My backup/spare fuse is 225A, being the next higher rated one in case 200A isn't quite enough for the 180A-rated alternator.

The alternator B+ stud was accessed from below rather than drain coolant, remove the fan, ancillary belt, tensioner and the alternator. The cable from the starter has yet to be cut off, temporarily held out of harm's way with several cable-ties - a job for another day. Lost some skin but that's mechanicing.

Excellent work. I for one would love a couple of photos. But given the lost skin, perhaps that might be stretching the friendship:angel:
Cheers,
Scott

[Graeme]

The 2.7's alternator is rated at 150A.

[Ean Austral]

How often would a alternator get near it's max amp rating? Seems a lot of amps to be pumping out.

Cheers Ean

[Graeme]

There's not much to take pictures of other than the fuse at the battery end.

Getting the cable to do a U-turn at the alternator to match the bracket crimped on the original cable was a tad frustrating due to working with fingertips only but otherwise just ran the new cable behind the starter cable as it worked its way under the sump and up the inside of the left guard, making sure it travelled the same path around various hoses in case the body has to be removed.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/324.jpg

[Eevo]

How often would a alternator get near it's max amp rating? Seems a lot of amps to be pumping out.

Cheers Ean



battery, 60amps
audio amp, 60 amps
lights, 10amps


just a guess

[Ean Austral]

I finally installed a dedicated alternator B+ cable on my 3.0 today. Its 2m long, enclosed in fluted sheath, cable-tied to the starter cable at various points and is fitted with a 200A fuse just prior to connecting to the battery. My backup/spare fuse is 225A, being the next higher rated one in case 200A isn't quite enough for the 180A-rated alternator.

The alternator B+ stud was accessed from below rather than drain coolant, remove the fan, ancillary belt, tensioner and the alternator. The cable from the starter has yet to be cut off, temporarily held out of harm's way with several cable-ties - a job for another day. Lost some skin but that's mechanicing.


Maybe the 3.0l is different , but how the hell did you get your hand in to loosen the bolt on the back of the alternator and fit the new cable. I cant even see the lug let alone try and get to it. Will have a closer look, but that's a darn good effort.


Cheers Ean

[Graeme]

I was able to get a 13mm stepped ring spanner onto the nut to loosen it then span it off using fingertips. It took a while to put the nut back on straight but once there span it again with fingertips then tightened with the ring spanner. Not much space up there so the backs of my hands sustained some bruising from working against the chassis rail getting the new cable so that it looped back behind a light metal bracket to which the original cable was tied. I temporarily removed the 2 lower screws holding the bracket in place so that it could be temporarily bent out of the way to get behind it.

On a 2.7 it might be quicker and easier to remove the alternator the normal way.

[Ean Austral]

I was able to get a 13mm stepped ring spanner onto the nut to loosen it then span it off using fingertips. It took a while to put the nut back on straight but once there span it again with fingertips then tightened with the ring spanner. Not much space up there so the backs of my hands sustained some bruising from working against the chassis rail getting the new cable so that it looped back behind a light metal bracket to which the original cable was tied. I temporarily removed the 2 lower screws holding the bracket in place so that it could be temporarily bent out of the way to get behind it.

On a 2.7 it might be quicker and easier to remove the alternator the normal way.


Champion effort is all I can say.


Cheers Ean

[jonesy63]

In case anyone is searching about this down the track... the alternator in a D4 2.7L is different to the alternator in a D3 2.7. :-\

Consequently, it costs more and not as readily available as a D3 one.

Mine was replaced last week and the almost dead one removed was chock-a-block full of mud, dirt, etc. Oops! I'm guessing that heat killed it. :wasntme::angel: Note to self - hose out alternator after muddy runs and river crossings. :D

Now to deal with the coolant leak! :mad:

[Graeme]

An almost dead one filled with mud may only have stuck and worn brushes.

[rar110]

Any chance of a diagram Graeme? This dummy is having trouble following.

[jonesy63]

An almost dead one filled with mud may only have stuck and worn brushes.

And burnt diodes... :(

[Graeme]

The 3.0 has a coolant tube running below the alternator which is held steady with a bracket to which the alternator cable is also tied. The coolant tube blocks a lot of access to the alternator stud but removing the bracket's lower bolts allows the tube to be moved enough to make a difference. However the coolant tube may not exist on the 2.7 or may have a different form due to the lack of a RH turbo and different EGR valves.

Can the 2.7's stud be seen at all from below?

[jonesy63]

Can the 2.7's stud be seen at all from below?

I'll take a look tomorrow - when it stops raining. ;)

[Disco W.A]

The photos aren't the best but it looks easy to access the terminal on the D4 2.7's


could be a project to do while I'm changing the lower control arms

[Stuart02]

Hi folks,

My wife's RRS TDV8 (176000kms) went in for a service at a independent LR mechanic, they say it went flat while they were working on it, battery is 2013 so they're assuming it's ok. They charged and restarted it, said alternator only putting out 12.8V or something, needs replacing ($1660 please). They didn't really explain to me how they test it - I'm assuming there must be a way of 'tricking' the car into thinking it needs maximum charging voltage?

Wife drives the 8km home, next morning dashlights but not a sausage from the starter. Everyone agrees alternator must be worse than thought.

That evening RACV man (I'm 300kms away at the time) pops in to check the car and lo, it starts like nothing was ever wrong. And it's started happily all day today (6 deg overnight too).

Is there anything other than the alternator that could be playing up? Is it as much of a bugger to replace as the $650ish of labour I've been quoted would suggest?

Thankfully my wife is more than a bit in love with the car, cos she might have to drive it with one arm and one leg...

[Silenceisgolden]

Alternators on other cars I've had seem to last longer:
-my Pintara TRX is on to its third alternator at 435K, the original died at 313K and the replacement I bought from a wrecker lasted until 435K.
-my missus' Audi B5 A4 1.8T is at 320K on original alternator
-my Audi B5 S4 is still on its original at 260K
-my current daily Audi A4's original alt lasted 270K. Now at 300K.



The Lucas alternator on my Oka packed up at 1,290,000 kilometres.....about 10,000 k's after I fitted a DBS......