No drive on Hi Ratio RWD

[geodon]

Series 2A 186 Holden


Well, here's my 1st breakdown since I put her on the road. It must be 12 months as my renewal for rego just arrived.




After using low ratio 4WD putting branches on the bonfire in a boggy paddock, I dragged the red lever back & the yellow knob bobbed up but when I engaged a gear & let the clutch out, nada! I can hear gear noise from the box but no drive.


4WD lo & hi ratio work fine!


Comments?
Diagnostic procedures?

[newby@54]

This has happened to me. Once I really pushed the red lever forward (almost touching the fire wall) all was good.

Nic

[S3ute]

Hello from Brisbane.

Sounds like a broken rear axle.

Hence in 4Wd it is driving through the front axles.

Cheers,

[zulu Delta 534]

Definitely sounds like a half shaft. Put it in gear, let the clutch out and have someone check whether the prop shaft is turning. If so you have broken an axle (half shaft.)
The golden rule with broken axles is to make sure you replace both sides, never put a new one in with an old one as the old one won't last that long.
Regards
Glen

[snafubar]

Hi geodon, two things you mentioned need clarification. If you were in low range the the red lever would need to be pushed forward, not back, to disengage. Also the yellow knob would already be up. If you were in high range then different story. As you say, the yellow knob would pop up as the red lever was pulled back. You would then have the transfer case in neutral - with no drive! That's the second point - are u in between low and high range? When low range is engaged (red stick pulled back) it also engages the front axle. No need to touch the yellow knob. If you want to engage the front axle while in high range all that is required is push the yellow knob down. (This is presuming that if you have freewheeling hubs they are locked). To test, lock your front hubs, if you have them, get in and try moving the red stick between the three positions while you got the clutch depressed. Don't touch yellow knob. You should get drive in the forward most and rearward most positions. Neural is in middle. If you have no drive in forward position then something broken in the back. Try same thing with handbrake on - gently - just feel it, don't actually try to drive..... If it wants to stall then you know all is well in the transfer. Next try hacking up each rear wheel, one at a time, and try turning it. Do this with the handbrake on. Let us know how u go. Cheers, matt

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using AULRO mobile app

[geodon]

Sorry Snafu! Yes yellow knob pops up when the red lever goes forward. I can't push it any further forward. Thanks to all! Dark now so I will put it up on stands tomorrow & start it up in all combos and watch what turns & what doesn't. If it is the rear half shaft I can tell right or left by rotating each back wheel. The side that doesn't turn the opposite number is the one that's stuffed. Yes?

[geodon]

No that's not right! Neither will turn the other because the connection is broken but the one that's intact WILL turn via the propshaft.
Old age is a bitch but it's better than the alternative

[geodon]

No that won't happen.
The diff will spin the one with least resistance ie the broken one. Will I hear it turning? It has transmission brake. So If I jam it on, both back wheels will still turn due to the differential effect for the intact one & the broken one will freewheel. So how do I pick it??

[Timj]

ummm... the broken one will be broken and won't turn if you turn the propshaft. If both back wheels are jacked up there is no load on either so they should both try to turn but the broken one can't.

Cheers,

TimJ.

[geodon]

Thnx Tim. Of course! When the diff turns the propshaft will too so the broken one won't because there is no connection to the diff.

I was concerned that just turning the propshaft eg via the motor will just spin via the line of least resistance &, like when one wheel slips on mud, there will be only one wheel spinning in the absence of a diff lock. It's very unlikely 2 back wheels will have equal resistance to turning when jacked up.
But in the mirror image, turning the back wheels while jacked up will ALWAYS turn the propshaft unless there is a broken connection.


A bit too much red last nite?

As my youngest daughter would say" "Well derrrr, Dad!"

[JDNSW]

If you have a broken rear axle, neither rear wheel will turn when the prop shaft is rotated, as the diff will ensure that all drive goes to the side with least resistance.

You can easily confirm that the problem is in the rear axle - chock the front wheels, jack up one rear wheel with the handbrake on. If the wheel is free to rotate you have a broken axle or a broken diff (either is possible - the last time I had this it was the diff).

Having established this, you can tell which side axle simply by removing each half axle, which can be done without even jacking it up. If the first test has confirmed the problem is the rear axle, and neither halfshaft is broken, you will have to remove the diff. This is fairly easy to do - with the halfshafts out, disconnect the prop shaft, drain the oil and remove the nuts holding it on. Careful, its heavy! In this case, I predict you will find the shaft carrying the planet gears is broken, and there will be consequent damage. Fortunately, there should be little problem finding a good secondhand diff.

(All these assume that it is a Rover diff - but if it is a salisbury, it is most unlikely to have broken anything, including axles, and almost all 2/2a Landrovers came with Rover diffs front and rear)

Hope this helps,

John

[Aaron IIA]

The golden rule with broken axles is to make sure you replace both sides, never put a new one in with an old one as the old one won't last that long.

I have broken three long axles in my SIIa. Never replaced or broken a short axle.

Just pull the axles and have a look. The bolts are 3/8 BSF so you need a 5/16 BSW socket.
Aaron

[geodon]

Well am I in deep schtuck & can look forward to something major?


All 4 wheels off the ground, engine running, lo ratio 4WD engaged only front wheels turn & the rear propshaft does NOT turn. Remember I said there was gear noise from the box? One would expect the whirr from a broken axle to come from the back.


Broken output shaft for RWD?

[JDNSW]

Looking at the gearbox cross section, the only possible failure that could cause this is a broken output shaft in the transfer case. I have never heard of this, but I suppose it is possible.

I would be inclined to drain the transfer case oil and remove the bottom plate, when the situation should become clear.

While this sort of failure probably means the transfer case should be overhauled, it is quite feasible to replace either the transfer case or just the shaft (and probably bearings) without removing the gearbox and in the second case with the transfer case in place.

John

[Aaron IIA]

Although unlikely, it may have stripped the spline on the output flange.
Aaron

[geodon]

Thnx JD, you are a treasure! I'll investigate as advised.


However with a siezed series 3 2.25 litre on my engine stand and my spare gear box @ John Needham's workshop undergoing a refurbishment, I think the time has come to revert back to the original 2.25 format. Pity! I was hoping for it to go a bit longer, but, as I learn't the hard way, if it's on the floor get it checked out b4 you put it back in. Here endeth the lesson!


I was pondering this doing the conversion during the resto


http://www.aulro.com/afvb/holden-powered-series-land-rovers/142409-straw-poll-re-holden-conversions-4.html




But 2.25 motors were thin on the ground back then! Plus, the electrical probs of going back to a dynamo were considerable. Fortunately, the 2.25 I got was an alternator version.

[geodon]

OK! Before I start removing floors and pans.

I can see how the red lever engages 4WD:

A bit about Gearboxes (http://ollr.createaforum.com/technical-archive/a-bit-about-gearboxes/)

Is there a similar mechanism inside the casing projecting forward from the transfer case to engage RWD? Or is RWD permanently engaged?

I'm guessing there could be; the manual isn't too clear to me. If the red lever is in neutral does that mean no drive to front or rear?

Either way, I have to remove that forward casing to investigate the rear output shaft. That seems do-able with everything in-situ. I don't think the transfer case has to come out but does the intermediate gear need to come out of the transfer case 1st?

Just as well I modified the rear cross member to detach, hey?

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-land-rovers/147112-gb-crossmember-converted-bolt.html

[chazza]

If the red lever is in neutral does that mean no drive to front or rear?



Yes.

[Timj]

The HoHars had an issue where the circlip that holds the high range gear on the output shaft had lost it's ears. This caused the same symptoms you are describing. Makes it quite difficult to get the shaft out too :). Cheap fix though.

TimJ

[geodon]

Sounds like items no. 64 & 63 on page 158?

https://docs.google.com/folderview?id=0BxoLxdk31t_oYjEyMTBiZjYtZjdjNi00NDE zLThiMjEtMTRiYmQ3YzM0MWUx&usp=drive_web&hl=en_US

You've got a Pinzgauer?? Respect, mein herr! After a 15 year obsession (1980-1995) I finished a Typ 87 Kubelwagen (ex Waffen-SS) & Typ 166 Schwimmwagen (ex Wehrmacht). Both gone now.

[JDNSW]

I have had a look at the bits you point out, and I cannot see how they could get front wheel drive but not rear wheel drive - front wheel drive cannot work unless the output shaft is powered so that the front wheel drive dog in the forward extension housing can engage it, but this output shaft has the rear output flange splined onto it, so if the front is powered, then that rear flange must turn unless the shaft is broken (or the splines stripped).

As I said, pull the bottom cover off, it is only about ten nuts, and it should be clear what the problem is.

John

[Blknight.aus]

Blown rear axle or its not engaging the high range gear set.

I've seen one case of the output flange having striped it's slpines but that wasn't on a landy tcase.

There is a "balancing pivot" that can cause these symptoms but most times the fault is caused by the rods becoming gunned up. Sometimes it's fixable by removing the floor lye and manipulating everthibg that you can uncover.

[wrinklearthur]

---- As I said, pull the bottom cover off, it is only about ten nuts, and it should be clear what the problem is.

It is highly unlikely that the output shaft has snapped inside the transfer box, but to produce those symptoms it would have to break inside in front of the bearing closest to the handbrake assembly.

To test the condition of the halfshafts, just jack one wheel up, with the handbrake on, try to turn the jacked up wheel and if the wheel spins freely then a half shaft has snapped.
.

[JDNSW]

....

To test the condition of the halfshafts, just jack one wheel up, with the handbrake on, try to turn the jacked up wheel and if the wheel spins freely then a half shaft has snapped.
.

See post #11!

John

[Ancient Mariner]

After the first two I used to carry a spare:( If you release the hand brake you can usually pick up some movement if I remember correctly

AM

[wrinklearthur]

See post #11!

John

:oops2: Sorry!


You can easily confirm that the problem is in the rear axle - chock the front wheels, jack up one rear wheel with the handbrake on. If the wheel is free to rotate you have a broken axle or a broken diff (either is possible - the last time I had this it was the diff).

[Timj]

I have had a look at the bits you point out, and I cannot see how they could get front wheel drive but not rear wheel drive - front wheel drive cannot work unless the output shaft is powered so that the front wheel drive dog in the forward extension housing can engage it, but this output shaft has the rear output flange splined onto it, so if the front is powered, then that rear flange must turn unless the shaft is broken (or the splines stripped).

As I said, pull the bottom cover off, it is only about ten nuts, and it should be clear what the problem is.

John

Hi John,

I can't work out the reason why either looking at the diagrams and thinking about how the things work from the ones I have pulled apart. However that was the symptoms and the solution. Putting the vehicle in 4wd (pushing the yellow lever down) was enough to get it moving and the only thing we had to fix was putting a new circlip in. So the act of engaging the front output may move something into place but you are right in that that should then drive the rear as well. Hmm... need to think about this more.

Geodon,

The Pinz is great though at the moment it is just about finished being repaired after I put it on it's side while playing up at LandCruiser Mountain Park. Should look nice again though soon :). Having been to a few of the ex military get togethers with the Pinz I have seen a few Kubelwagens, very cool too, is a Schwimmwagen an amphibious one?

Cheers,

TimJ.

[JDNSW]

Hi John,

I can't work out the reason why either looking at the diagrams and thinking about how the things work from the ones I have pulled apart. However that was the symptoms and the solution. Putting the vehicle in 4wd (pushing the yellow lever down) was enough to get it moving and the only thing we had to fix was putting a new circlip in. So the act of engaging the front output may move something into place but you are right in that that should then drive the rear as well. Hmm... need to think about this more.
....
Cheers,

TimJ.

I can see how if the output shaft is free to move forward enough that the high range dog cannot engage, then engaging the front drive dog would stop it from moving forward. But drive would be to both front and rear. The most likely reason for this movement is that the front bearing has failed, but could be the retaining circlip on that bearing being dislodged. Probably also a secondary problem such as general wear on the selector or possibly the fork loose on its shaft, maybe burred teeth on the dog.

John

John

[geodon]

I played musical chairs with the fleet getting the LR in the workshop & suffered the motoring equivalent of Erectile Dysfunction: I got IN the MGA but couldn't get OUT! My arthritic R knee is chronic ATM.


Another embarrassment: I took the sump off the TC & started up in 4WD expecting to see a break but all were spinning OK & the rear propshaft was turning!? (rear wheels stationary). Obviously a half-shaft BUT I'm sure that the 1st time I jacked it up & ran it in gear & 4WD the rear propshaft was NOT turning.


Is it possible to select front wheel drive only?? Red lever neutral, yellow knob pushed down?


Timj, yes the schwimm was an amphibian & I had it in the Murray pre-resto. That's me at the wheel about 1980- I had no trouble exiting MG's back then. We are looking at the floor wondering where the water was coming from! It was damn rusty! It had been converted to RHD for NSW rego. Once restored, it was so valuable I wasn't game to do it again. The insurance company wouldn't wear it!!

[JDNSW]

Is it possible to select front wheel drive only?? Red lever neutral, yellow knob pushed down?
!

No, if you do that the front and rear propshafts will be locked together, but there will be no drive to either, as the low range gear will be out of mesh and the high range dog is disengaged.

John

[geodon]

This story is beginning to rival Tolstoy's War & Peace!


Just did the one rear wheel down, park brake on test & BOTH wheels turn!


Looks like I have to get intimate with an ENV diff!


BTW, what thread is used for the TC sump bolts? Most screwed right out & I want to clean them up with a die & tap. The coarse end into the case seems like 1/4 BSW. Is the nut end 1/4 BSF?

[wrinklearthur]

----- Just did the one rear wheel down, park brake on test & BOTH wheels turn! Something has let go in the diff for sure.

Looks like I have to get intimate with an ENV diff! Those diff's look tough as old boots.


BTW, what thread is used for the TC sump bolts? Most screwed right out & I want to clean them up with a die & tap. The coarse end into the case seems like 1/4 BSW. Is the nut end 1/4 BSF?

Could be either BSW / BSF or NC / NF, not sure what year the change over occurred.

The early ( Series One ) transfer boxes were definitely BSW / BSF.
.

[JDNSW]

It is probably UNF, as I note that the Series 3 lists the same part No as 2a, which suggests the change was before Series 2a. But even if this reasoning is correct, there is no guarantee that earlier parts have not been fitted some tim in the last fifty or so years. Check which it is with a known nut, and be aware that there is no guarantee they are all the same!

John

[geodon]

If an axle is broken at the diff, for example, that wheel will obviously spin with the park brake on & the good wheel on the ground.


I have no argument with that.


With the bad wheel on the ground & the brake on it's argued that the good wheel will not turn presumably because it will try to turn the propshaft.


I can't see that.

If no axles are broken and both wheels are in the air, then turning one wheel will cause the other to turn in the opposite direction. That's what diffs do. So, with the bad wheel on the ground, turning the good wheel will just spin the broken halfshaft in the opposite direction thus offering no resistance to turning.


The only way to test is to pull both axle out & look at them.


I'm not complaining! I was delighted to see this:


(BTW those TC sump studs were 1/4 BSW & 1/4 BSF 26 pitch)

[JDNSW]

Well, I guess you have found the problem. Now all you have to do is get the bit out of the diff!

John

[wrinklearthur]

With the axles out of the way, do go to the trouble of pulling the diff centre out and cleaning all the shrapnel out of the diff housing.

I would keep the unbroken halfshaft as a spare and fit two new halfshafts.

Someone on here may be able to tell you if Maxidrive / Hi tough, still make ten spline replacements.
.