Are 4WDs too high-tech for the bush?

[Chucaro]

On ABC is this short video about it
IMO it is nothing new about it, we need the County back in production for Australia, Africa and South American countries :)

Are 4WDs too high-tech for the bush? (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-08/are-4wds-too-high-tech-for-the-bush/5727630)

[DiscoMick]

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, some computerized or electrical issues do seem to be beyond fixing in the bush although, in a lot of cases, the fault is not the actual unit, but some dodgy connection or so on, which could be fixed if the person knew how to find it.
On the other hand, there are also a lot of mechanical problems which also can't be fixed in the bush. For example, my shredded timing belt has cracked rockers and bent pistons, which could not be fixed in the bush.
So I think the real question is not if vehicles are too high-tech to be fixed in the bush, but which systems - mechanical or electrical - are more likely to break down in the bush. I don't know the answer to that one.

[Chucaro]

I guess that vehicle preparation and preventative maintenance will help a lot to reduce possibilities of mechanical break down.

[460cixy]

Don't think it makes much difference there's still so called mechanics out there that think a 300tdi is to complicated

[Gerokent]

When a blown stop light bulb can put a transmission into fault mode, that's too high tech. When a blown suspension actuator necessitates a ride home on a flat bed truck, thats too high tech.
I'm sure there's a few people on here that have heard the story of a guy carving a big end bearing for his engine out of a bit of wood to get himself to where he was going; that's not high tech :)
We wont be allowed to go off road soon, so it may become a moot point:(

[Lotz-A-Landies]

When a blown stop light bulb can put a transmission into fault mode, that's too high tech. When a blown suspension actuator necessitates a ride home on a flat bed truck, thats too high tech.
I'm sure there's a few people on here that have heard the story of a guy carving a big end bearing for his engine out of a bit of wood to get himself to where he was going; that's not high tech :)We wont be allowed to go off road soon, so it may become a moot point:(Have you ever heard of private property?

There are remarkably few areas of wilderness in the UK for "going bush" but they still find places.

[shanegtr]

I get to see a lot of live data that's output from haul trucks for work. The trucks do more running hours than most peoples cars easily, and they have just as much high tech computers etc running around them nowadays compared to cars. Sure they don't have all the safety tech, but the engine management and electrical managment in the electric drive trucks is very similar. For the constant vibrations that they are exposed to there's very little in the way of "computer issues". The most common faults are faulty sensors, fault connections and cable rubs creating shorts or open circuits. Some of these faults you could put down to things not being done right after maintenance, which happens every 500hrs or so (every 20 odd days), someone's a bit rough pulling a connector apart, or cabling not tied up properly etc..Your more likely to have issues after maintenance.
I think most electrical systems are fairly robust, in saying that some cars seem to have nothing but lots of electrical and mechanical gremlins from day one.

[gusthedog]

The only issue I have with my 4 landy's over the years that didn't allow me to get home was a broken water pipe on my 300tdi that resulted in a warped head. I think electronics in 4 wheel drives are great! I love climate control and traction control and love the comfort of my bus on long trips. I have a D2 and a Nanocom and there aren't too many issues I can't resolve myself generally. But all things break down eventually. But proper and preventative maintenance is the key. My D2 hasn't broken down once in 5 years and it's been the most reliable vehicle over ever owned (including a 96 diesel troopy and old diesel hilux). But I am aware of the common d2 issues and maintain it myself including a fair bit of preventative maintenance.

I'd have a D4 and take it anywhere if I could justify the purchase and maintenance price :D

And I'd much prefer to rely on newer technology than an old series or county. In my experience a car that is a few years old is much better in design generally speaking compared to a car designed 40 years ago. (Now preparing to duck to avoid quips from the series brigade)

[Tote]

When a blown stop light bulb can put a transmission into fault mode, that's too high tech. When a blown suspension actuator necessitates a ride home on a flat bed truck, thats too high tech.
I'm sure there's a few people on here that have heard the story of a guy carving a big end bearing for his engine out of a bit of wood to get himself to where he was going; that's not high tech :)
We wont be allowed to go off road soon, so it may become a moot point:(

When a blown stop light bulb can put a transmission into fault mode that's bad design -simple solution, replace the lamp or put in a LED one.
Height sensors are eaily replaced - it's just a matter of having one. No different to a broken fuel pump diaphram - a broken one will stop you in the bush and there is no way to fix it without parts......

Regards,
Tote

[S3ute]

we need the County back in production for Australia, Africa and South American countries :)


Hard to say if the market or design rule arbitrators would really agree with your sentiment there - at the end of the day that would pretty much drive the decision. Getting a 'new' vehicle of almost 35 years of design age and safety standard onto the roads of the continents (and sub-continent) listed there might be a challenge.

Most of the major changes in the older trucks came about as a result of mandated safety rules. For example, I believe the Series Land Rovers went 'wide headlight' in the early 70's to meet the German safety design rules and ditto the padded dashes and relocation of the instruments in the Series 3 - if the Germans hadn't asked for it the North Americans certainly would have. Sales of new Defenders stopped in the USA market because they simply couldn't meet the basic safety rules (airbags etc) and the cost of the re-engineering required was judged to be unviable. Clearly Tata is still making that judgement on a global basis.

The argument that vehicles like the early County-Defenders (90/110) etc are still demanded for utilitarian uses like farm and forestry work etc is also not without challenge. One of the UK Land Rover mags did an interesting comparison a little time ago between a new Defender and a new combine harvester and looked back at the evolutionary path of the two machines. In terms of operator safety, general comfort, noise, work efficiency etc the harvester beat the Defender hands down. Farm and forestry workers aren't necessarily standing at the back of the queue when it comes to demanding these sorts of improvements in their working machines. Semi-trailers seem be another case in point.

So, I guess it's a case of making a few choices - if you want to take a simple 4WD into the bush just take your old one. Or join the hordes with something newer, quieter, more fuel efficient and safe.

Cheers,

[Gerokent]

When a blown stop light bulb can put a transmission into fault mode that's bad design -simple solution, replace the lamp or put in a LED one.
Height sensors are eaily replaced - it's just a matter of having one. No different to a broken fuel pump diaphram - a broken one will stop you in the bush and there is no way to fix it without parts......

Regards,
Tote

A fuel pump fault is easly fixed with a bottle of fuel on the roof, gravity feeding (or a windscreen washer pump; a-la "bush mechanics"):D

[Rosco8]

Having a simple bingle in one of my diesel Pajero Exceeds (I previously had 2 back to back on lease), I was incapacitated fairly quickly with leaking fluid from the auto transmission. It took specialised equipment that is only available in major centres. I didn't do my planned trip to the Cape as I was too worried I would be stuck 500km or more away from anyone who could fix it.

However, I had no issues on doing major road trips that meant I wasn't too far from a major centre with rescue gear, whether it was Broken Hill, Hervey Bay or Mildura as examples. So it limited me a bit, BTW the electronics weren't exactly brilliant on heavy sand either, but I luv'd the comfort it provided and they were a fabulous cruising car.

One of the prime reasons i brought the Perentie, was to get back to basics with a simple vehicle to do those trips I wasn't game to do in the Pajeros.

[gusthedog]

Having a simple bingle in one of my diesel Pajero Exceeds (I previously had 2 back to back on lease), I was incapacitated fairly quickly with leaking fluid from the auto transmission. It took specialised equipment that is only available in major centres. I didn't do my planned trip to the Cape as I was too worried I would be stuck 500km or more away from anyone who could fix it.

However, I had no issues on doing major road trips that meant I wasn't too far from a major centre with rescue gear, whether it was Broken Hill, Hervey Bay or Mildura as examples. So it limited me a bit, BTW the electronics weren't exactly brilliant on heavy sand either, but I luv'd the comfort it provided and they were a fabulous cruising car.

One of the prime reasons i brought the Perentie, was to get back to basics with a simple vehicle to do those trips I wasn't game to do in the Pajeros.

That's what roadside assist is for. I have RACV platinum, a sat phone and epirb as it's cheaper than buying a whole new car :D

I'm happy to take my electrically laden D2 anywhere. You think it's hard to find a Mitsubishi service centre outside of a major centre, have you looked for a Landy one? Stress less is my opinion. If you are well set up and maintained and have a backup (like a sat phone) don't sweat the small stuff. IMHO of course.

[Bigbjorn]

Any Aulro regulars know how I feel about automotive electronics. I have had an absolute rooting by them. From personal experience I don't believe auto electronics are yet sufficiently reliable to be considered for a remote area outback rough usage vehicle. My Falcon ute has stopped with distributor failures (3), modules (2), Smart Lock Box (1), coils (3). Refused to start once with a blown fuse in the interior light circuit. The light is switched through the Smart Lock and no light tells the Not So Smart box that something is wrong so it won't start the car. Each replacement distributor came with a new ignition module by the way. The last replaced distributor looked inside like it had been struck by lightning. I grew up in Winton and my family did remote area mail runs from 1908 with horses until 2004. Working in these areas gives one a great appreciation of vehicle reliability. A dead vehicle can mean a dead driver. One of my failures was on a station track between Diamantina Lakes National Park and Coorabulka homestead. Fortunately I was standing in for a cousin who had gone to hospital. He stressed that I take a UHF with me. Workers from Coorabulka came and towed me to the homestead.

I own a County-Isuzu for touring. Stone reliable, no electronics except in the entertainment system, does 30 mpg up the highway. Old, economical, efficient, and reliable technology.

Would Roadside Assist or the RACQ come to your rescue out there?

[JDNSW]

While I go along with a lot of Brian's thoughts, there is one aspect in which I disagree. It is neither the use of electronics nor complexity that is the problem - consider for example that my father was very scathing of any car that relied on a battery - he insisted on a car with magneto ignition and crank start. He was also very suspicious of "automatic" devices such as automatic spark advance, believing this was something the driver should control. But most of us grew up with these features the only ones we have ever known, and ones that we regard as 'old school' and reliable.

No, my concern is the overall design philosophy of cars has changed.

The Series Landrovers were designed and built with the intention of being owner maintained and repaired, as reading of the factory workshop manuals clearly shows. Today's vehicles (of whatever type) are not. It is assumed, either implicitly or explicitly, that all service and repairs will be carried out by qualified mechanics in a properly equipped workshop, and often is assumed that it will be by factory trained mechanics.

There is no reason why increased complexity or use of electronics has to mandate these changes. As an example, is there any reason why diagnostic software and a display screen could not be included in the vehicle design? Should add well under $100 to the cost.

John

[AndyG]

To answer the last question, I was told today that Land Rover assist will go anywhere, except the sand islands. Due to the dumb driver ratio,

Personally, modern technology is great, but it should all have a dumb limp home mode. So for example if the fuel system is confused, pump excess, rather than stop totally.

[Chucaro]

John, one of the things that I really miss was when we used to go to the local Repco shop and was able to get from short and long motors, engine heads and gearboxes to distributors and fuel pumps among other parts for Ford, Holden and Valiant
On the top of that the man behind the counter used to have the knowledge to supply you a cross reference part from other vehicle to the one that you have.
I used Austin pistons and other parts to rebuild my Triumph Herald :)
Now, we the amount of different models and the complexity on some of them we cannot have that very good old service.

[Gerokent]

The car manufacturers can't make enough money just selling cars, they have to have exclusive rights for service and maintainance of the cars as well. The easiest way to have exclusivity is to not give out any information (OBD codes ect) on said cars (except what the law requires)

[101RRS]

Personally, modern technology is great, but it should all have a dumb limp home mode. So for example if the fuel system is confused, pump excess, rather than stop totally.

They do - if any sensor reading goes out of spec default setting are applied - there are very few circumstances where there is absolutely no functionality at all - even if the suspension is on the stops you can still drive - maybe rather uncomfortably but it will still move unless you have big tyres on.

[JDNSW]

John, one of the things that I really miss was when we used to go to the local Repco shop and was able to get from short and long motors, engine heads and gearboxes to distributors and fuel pumps among other parts for Ford, Holden and Valiant
On the top of that the man behind the counter used to have the knowledge to supply you a cross reference part from other vehicle to the one that you have.
I used Austin pistons and other parts to rebuild my Triumph Herald :)
Now, we the amount of different models and the complexity on some of them we cannot have that very good old service.

I think your problem here is not the complexity of modern vehicles, but a combination of the number of different vehicles sold (and how rapidly they change), and the pressure on retailers resulting in few long term employees. (However, i have, for example been able to get points and a coil off the shelf for my 2a recently at the local Repco)

If you think about it, we used to have three or four local manufacturers, each producing only a single model, plus probably the same number of high volume imports. And all of these kept the same or very similar design for long periods. Today we have hundreds of different models on the market - even Landrover, which used to have only one model with different wheelbases and bodies and a couple of different engines, now has what, four basic models, with each having several different engines. And the designs of each model change quite rapidly, especially engines - often driven by regulation.

But even forty years ago, getting repairs or parts for anything unusual was a problem - you might have been able to get Austin pistons that fit your Triumph, but forty years ago I was driving a Citroen DS. The difference today is that what applied to it then now applies to almost any car on the road. It is not the complexity, it is the unfamiliarity that now applies to most of the cars on the market.

John

John

[gusthedog]

Would Roadside Assist or the RACQ come to your rescue out there?

RACV will recover you from any registered road. So limited in back country unless you can get a tow to a registered road :)

IMHO with a sat phone you are no longer likely to die in outback Australia. Particularly with other back ups like an epirb and well set up and stocked car. Eg carry enough water to be stranded for a week etc.

[Bigbjorn]

Don't expect to get Land Rover parts and service outside major cities. There is not a Land Rover dealer in Qld. west of Toowoomba.

And you may have to wait a long time for roadside assist. If the RACQ agent (who is almost always the "assist" contractor) in a small town is out on a job somewhere and out of 'phone contact, roll out your swag. You could be there a while. You can bet they won't have trained staff and special tools for your LR.

I priced an ECM for a popular Jap passenger car. Over $2,000, nil stock, order now and it will come from overseas. Few could afford to carry these as spare parts on an outback trip. I mentioned this to a friend who has a smash repair business. He reckons this is common. Dealers don't carry expensive or slow moving parts, and often the distributor doesn't either. "Ex Japan, six weeks". He pointed to a shape covered by a dust sheet. A medium up-market Jap car. It has been waiting six months for parts from overseas. Parts arrive in dribs and drabs.

[loanrangie]

[/COLOR]Have you ever heard of private property?

There are remarkably few areas of wilderness in the UK for "going bush" but they still find places.

I hardly call an over grown lane way as offroad :p but yes there are quarry's and and " offroad " parks.

[PAT303]

Any Aulro regulars know how I feel about automotive electronics. I have had an absolute rooting by them. From personal experience I don't believe auto electronics are yet sufficiently reliable to be considered for a remote area outback rough usage vehicle. My Falcon ute has stopped with distributor failures (3), modules (2), Smart Lock Box (1), coils (3). Refused to start once with a blown fuse in the interior light circuit. The light is switched through the Smart Lock and no light tells the Not So Smart box that something is wrong so it won't start the car. Each replacement distributor came with a new ignition module by the way. The last replaced distributor looked inside like it had been struck by lightning. I grew up in Winton and my family did remote area mail runs from 1908 with horses until 2004. Working in these areas gives one a great appreciation of vehicle reliability. A dead vehicle can mean a dead driver. One of my failures was on a station track between Diamantina Lakes National Park and Coorabulka homestead. Fortunately I was standing in for a cousin who had gone to hospital. He stressed that I take a UHF with me. Workers from Coorabulka came and towed me to the homestead.

I own a County-Isuzu for touring. Stone reliable, no electronics except in the entertainment system, does 30 mpg up the highway. Old, economical, efficient, and reliable technology.

Would Roadside Assist or the RACQ come to your rescue out there?

In the last 5 years how many outback K's have you done in your stone reliable Isuzu?,I've done a few hundred thousand all across WA,SA,NT in my L322 and TDCi defender without one single mechanical or electrical fault,not one,I can't even remember changing a globe.IMHO people will criticize what they don't like or know about and will make up any type of hypothetical argument to back what they say,your Isuzu would be stopped dead in it's tracks by any number of issue's regardless of how little amount of electrics it has.All you people who knock modern vehicles,guess what,they crap all over your old ones in performance,power,economy,comfort,ease of use and most of all capability,a bog standard D4 would eat a county for lunch,it wouldn't even touch the sides. Pat

[Chenz]

Don't expect to get Land Rover parts and service outside major cities. There is not a Land Rover dealer in Qld. west of Toowoomba.

And you may have to wait a long time for roadside assist. If the RACQ agent (who is almost always the "assist" contractor) in a small town is out on a job somewhere and out of 'phone contact, roll out your swag. You could be there a while. You can bet they won't have trained staff and special tools for your LR.

I priced an ECM for a popular Jap passenger car. Over $2,000, nil stock, order now and it will come from overseas. Few could afford to carry these as spare parts on an outback trip. I mentioned this to a friend who has a smash repair business. He reckons this is common. Dealers don't carry expensive or slow moving parts, and often the distributor doesn't either. "Ex Japan, six weeks". He pointed to a shape covered by a dust sheet. A medium up-market Jap car. It has been waiting six months for parts from overseas. Parts arrive in dribs and drabs.

I had some doubts about my new 130 Puma coming up to the recent Edjits trip off track across the Simpson so spent plenty getting it serviced, suspension upgraded, chipped, took advice from my mechanic and took plenty of spares and purchased a Nanacom.

Fortunately apart from a cooked start battery that dropped a cell which I replaced at Copley and a leaking vacuum pump that I had a replacement part Express posted to Oodnadatta, it went fine.

I read plenty of persons with minor faults being halted or the vehicle going into limp mode and agree it was easier to work out the problem and fix the old 200 Tdi but the comfort, power and ride of the Puma outweighs that.

Yes they are more complicated but if we want less complicated we could get a horse or a camel :o

[PAT303]

Don't expect to get Land Rover parts and service outside major cities. There is not a Land Rover dealer in Qld. west of Toowoomba.

And you may have to wait a long time for roadside assist. If the RACQ agent (who is almost always the "assist" contractor) in a small town is out on a job somewhere and out of 'phone contact, roll out your swag. You could be there a while. You can bet they won't have trained staff and special tools for your LR.

I priced an ECM for a popular Jap passenger car. Over $2,000, nil stock, order now and it will come from overseas. Few could afford to carry these as spare parts on an outback trip. I mentioned this to a friend who has a smash repair business. He reckons this is common. Dealers don't carry expensive or slow moving parts, and often the distributor doesn't either. "Ex Japan, six weeks". He pointed to a shape covered by a dust sheet. A medium up-market Jap car. It has been waiting six months for parts from overseas. Parts arrive in dribs and drabs.

How many times have you waited 6 months for a LR part?,never.As far as parts people who travel into outback Oz and get stuck deserve all they get,it happens all the time and it's everyone else's fault they have a clogged fuel filter and no replacement. Pat

[PAT303]

John, one of the things that I really miss was when we used to go to the local Repco shop and was able to get from short and long motors, engine heads and gearboxes to distributors and fuel pumps among other parts for Ford, Holden and Valiant
On the top of that the man behind the counter used to have the knowledge to supply you a cross reference part from other vehicle to the one that you have.
I used Austin pistons and other parts to rebuild my Triumph Herald :)
Now, we the amount of different models and the complexity on some of them we cannot have that very good old service.

Thats why we buy modern vehicles,we aren't interested in rebuilding motors every other year,we like to travel instead. Pat

[Chucaro]

Thats why we buy modern vehicles,we aren't interested in rebuilding motors every other year,we like to travel instead. Pat

Old engines need rebuilding every other year? :eek:
I can list so many old engines that last close or more to 1 million km that it is not funny.

[MBZ460]

I doubt whether the quality of the electronics and wiring in a $7M Komatsu 960 dump truck can be compared to the stuff in any modern 4wd, in terms of reliability, and harsh environmental protection.
That would be like comparing avionics with auto electrics.
Plus those trucks dont range very far from a workshop.
And only use the electronics which are necessary to make them more cost-effective at moving dirt around.

[Robmacca]

Thought this might generate a few interesting comments......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isC32ev4Lw4

[TerryO]

It would be interesting to know how many of you contributing to this thread about how unreliable late model Discovery's and Rangies are have ever actually driven one, or more importantly owned one and gone off road or outback touring in one?

I usually have to go to Toyota and Nissan forums to read about how unreliable late model Disco's are off road. People on those forums are also experts on vehicles they have never owned or even driven as well.

Some of you really should have a read of the "What a load of crap" thread and the link it is based on, lots of parallels here to comments being made on Whirlpool about Land Rovers.

Sorry guys I really expected better.

[PAT303]

I'll hearing you. Pat

[bob10]

In the last 5 years how many outback K's have you done in your stone reliable Isuzu?,I've done a few hundred thousand all across WA,SA,NT in my L322 and TDCi defender without one single mechanical or electrical fault,not one,I can't even remember changing a globe.IMHO people will criticize what they don't like or know about and will make up any type of hypothetical argument to back what they say,your Isuzu would be stopped dead in it's tracks by any number of issue's regardless of how little amount of electrics it has.All you people who knock modern vehicles,guess what,they crap all over your old ones in performance,power,economy,comfort,ease of use and most of all capability,a bog standard D4 would eat a county for lunch,it wouldn't even touch the sides. Pat


Now you've done it Pat, my D2 ran & hid in the garage , trembling with fright, after hearing that. Oh well, I've promised it new springs & shockies, to make it feel better. And I don't care if I break down, I have 2 weeks worth of rat packs, & a fridge full of beer, Bob

[spudboy]

This thread comes to mind:

Murphys-law-catastrophic-failure-very-bad-place.html (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/l322-range-rover/199922-murphys-law-catastrophic-failure-very-bad-place.html) (Greg's new L322 RR which blew a rear shock on the Canning Stock Route, and took many thousands of dollars of LR-Assist to get on the road again).

Maybe the 20" rims were the cause? Is that fit for purpose? Because it is such a specialist car, you can't just go to your local Repco and ask for a shock absorber. At least with something more 'traditional' like a PUMA, you stand more of a chance of being able to get something off-the-shelf that can be adapted.

We went through all of this when working out what sort of truck to buy. Something older that a old fashioned diesel mechanic can fix, or something new that needs a factory computer to diagnose. Talking to companies that use trucks in the outback, their attitude was - once these new trucks are bedded in they are ultra reliable and the electronics rarely give problems. So in the end we decided on new.

We had had an "Engine Light" issue in the first 1000 Kms. It went back to MAN and they hooked it up via a satellite to Germany and someone over there diagnosed a faulty 02 sensor. It was still drivable, so hopefully things hold together like that until you can get it to a dealer.

[TerryO]

Again this thread shows a total lack of knowledge about late model Disco's or Rangies. For less than a couple of hundred dollars you can buy an impressive diagnostic tool that reads and clears faults which can otherwise stop the vehicle in its tracks.

While most of you guys with much older and supposedly more reliable vehicles carry around a decent sized tool box full of hand tools and lots of other gear, most late model Disco owners only carry a small diagnostic tool, a better than standard jack and a tyre repair kit.

I have a reasonable working knowledge of how most mechanical things work but if my 21 year old D1 decided to stop in the middle of no where I would have far less chance of getting it going than if either my D3 or D4 did.

My D1 has 16" rims, my D2 has 18" rims, the D3 has 17" rims and the D4 for now 20" rims, but will sooner or later have 18" rims with LT A/T fitted.
Good off road Tyre and rim sizes are far less of a concern now then many of you think they are.

Can one of you please show me the Series, County, Fender or early Disco model section where there are no posts about broken down vehicles with on going common reliability issues please.

[jonesy63]

Well, I think I had better rush out and buy a few lottery tickets. I've taken my previous D3 and current D4 to places where it shouldn't have been and I'm not supposed to have made it back alive. :D

The world has changed (for the better), in my opinion.

[jonesy63]

Hang on... I just remembered - I did get two errors pop up on my 16,000km trip to Broome and back:
1) water in wheel height sensor gave a suspension fault. I had to actually turn the car off and on again to clear that one - such a hassle! Left me stranded on the way out of Bungle Bungles - for all of 1 minute!
2) washer fluid level low - luckily, I had the technology to fix that one myself! :D

How could I have forgotten those two close calls with the grim reaper! :D

[ADMIRAL]

I would imagine the old timers riding horses had similar thoughts about those new fangled mechanical contraptions. Go with the flow. The latest 4wd's are very capable in extreme conditions, and more reliable than we give them credit for. If we act like they are made of eggshells, we are not going to see much of the outback are we ?

[Bytemrk]

When I bought my first D2, I got all the stories about reliability and electronics - how it was all bad and my car was a terrible choice and not fit for "real" bush...what ever that is.:angel:

Neither D2 ever left me stranded travelling through every state and territory except W.A.

Sure I had the odd breakdown - front drive shaft gave up.... had a radiator spring a leak....and out of Alice springs I developed a diesel leak from the fuel hoses near the tank. Over 200,000Km of happy motoring in those 2 vehicles

Yeh seems those hitech electronics are terrible things hey....:p

So bad I've recently upgraded to a D4 and there is no question, that car will travel like the previous ones.

I'll go prepared and I'll have a bloody good time...these things were not designed to hide them in cities....;)

[shanegtr]

Yes they are more complicated but if we want less complicated we could get a horse or a camel :o

On the positive side, if your horse or camel breaks down at least you won't starve to death:D

[Hoges]

Very interesting discussion... I've been methodically replacing most "critical" bits on the P38 while they are still operative but reaching what I believe to be the "mid afternoon" of their life expectancy (like me!:eek:). Pre-emptive maintenance is far better than waiting until something breaks at a most inconvenient time. So I now have a reasonable collection of useable second hand parts for dire emergency, but most sensors etc I can confidently expect another 100,000 km...which at the current rate is about 10 yrs...by which time... well let's not worry about that:twisted::angel:

[isuzurover]

...

No, my concern is the overall design philosophy of cars has changed.

...

Well put. I suppose we could consider it the apple philosophy - technology is designed as much as possible to be impossible to repair/maintain or modify, forcing users to replace the technology at regular intervals (e.g. when the battery dies).

Vehicle manufacturers make most of their money from repairs and maintenance, so try to ensure (as far as legal) that only the can do such work.

Vehicle could easily be designed with redundancy (similar to RAID hard drives on computers etc...), as well as user diagnostics and repair tools...

[2stroke]

Again this thread shows a total lack of knowledge about late model Disco's or Rangies. For less than a couple of hundred dollars you can buy an impressive diagnostic tool that reads and clears faults which can otherwise stop the vehicle in its tracks.

While most of you guys with much older and supposedly more reliable vehicles carry around a decent sized tool box full of hand tools and lots of other gear, most late model Disco owners only carry a small diagnostic tool, a better than standard jack and a tyre repair kit.

Even later model cars are subject to mechanical problems, just not the age, lack of maintenance ones.

I have a reasonable working knowledge of how most mechanical things work but if my 21 year old D1 decided to stop in the middle of no where I would have far less chance of getting it going than if either my D3 or D4 did.

You mean on a like for like mechanical problem? Surely a D1 brake problem would be easier to get around?

Can one of you please show me the Series, County, Fender or early Disco model section where there are no posts about broken down vehicles with on going common reliability issues please.

Most of them are Pumas though.:wasntme:

I think if you can diagnose engine control problems and carry the show stopper sensors I can't see how you'd be stranded by them, it's just a matter of knowing what to do. My Tdi 130 has challenged me in the outback once or twice (age related problems I admit), once a steel brake line broke off at the flare nut on the rear diff housing, blocked it off with a small brass screw and kept going (not sure if ABS would have anything to say about that) and another time the alternator seized in the Canning, then I took it off, put the AC belt in its place, working the waterpump and fan, and drove 500 or so km to Kunawarritji and adapted a Falcon one. These faults are more unlikely in a new car but not impossible.

[DiscoMick]

My BIL, who belongs to the 'old school and simple is best' group, is convinced his Triton is going to suffer an electrical gremlin in the middle of the Simpson Desert.


Mind you, he bought an 80 series Toyota as a project car and it has broken down twice in 3 months, so that's not a good record either.


There may not be a LR dealer is every outback town, but there are plenty of workshops around which will work on LRs and parts are usually only 1-2 days away from a capital city.

[Dougal]

Yes 4wd's are far too complex for the bush.

You guys should consider riding a horse instead. If the horse breaks down you can eat it while waiting for help to arrive.

[gusthedog]

Yes 4wd's are far too complex for the bush.

You guys should consider riding a horse instead. If the horse breaks down you can eat it while waiting for help to arrive.

Yeah but you can't carry much cold beer on a horse though....:wasntme:

[Dougal]

Yeah but you can't carry much cold beer on a horse though....:wasntme:

Your Australian beer tastes the same to me.:twisted:

[windsock]

Yeah but you can't carry much cold beer on a horse though....:wasntme:



If some of my larrikin aussie mates are any example, the horse probably died through a combination of carrying too much beer and then being offered beer as a pick-up when it started looking tired... :p

[460cixy]

Christ there's some blow hards on this forum. Ile stick to my old clangers and you other blokes can have your over priced lame ducks.

[Chucaro]

Another view about electronics in vehicles.

Crash analysis at Monash University Accident Research Centre (MUARC) shows that ESC is associated with:

a 32% reduction in single vehicle driver injury crashes1
a 59.6% reduction in driver injury rollover crashes1
an 81.6% reduction in 4WD rollover crashes (4WD offroad vehicles benefit significantly from ESC as they are particularly prone to roll-over crashes due to their high centre of gravity)

There is more to reaad in the howsafeisyourcar site (http://www.howsafeisyourcar.com.au/Electronic-Stability-Control/)

[MBZ460]

Its basic probability.
The more complex a thing is, the more faults it will have.
Does not matter if its a luxury 4wd, a F-35 fighter or Microsoft Windows (50 million lines of code in Win 8)

From here (http://www.devtopics.com/100-million-lines-of-code-in-your-car/)

a premium-class automobile “contains close to 100 million lines of software code.” The software executes on 70-100 microprocessor-based electronic control units (ECUs) networked throughout the body of your car

Its inevitable that complex new vehicles will have faults and manufacturers are happy to release them quickly to market, after all they can be fixed later via service bulletins (sometime reluctantly) Its just a fair bit more difficult if you are in Woop Woop at the time.

[FeatherWeightDriver]

On the positive side, if your horse or camel breaks down at least you won't starve to death:D

Depends what it dies from... :eek::wasntme:

[PAT303]

This thread comes to mind:

Murphys-law-catastrophic-failure-very-bad-place.html (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/l322-range-rover/199922-murphys-law-catastrophic-failure-very-bad-place.html) (Greg's new L322 RR which blew a rear shock on the Canning Stock Route, and took many thousands of dollars of LR-Assist to get on the road again).

Maybe the 20" rims were the cause? Is that fit for purpose? Because it is such a specialist car, you can't just go to your local Repco and ask for a shock absorber. At least with something more 'traditional' like a PUMA, you stand more of a chance of being able to get something off-the-shelf that can be adapted.

We went through all of this when working out what sort of truck to buy. Something older that a old fashioned diesel mechanic can fix, or something new that needs a factory computer to diagnose. Talking to companies that use trucks in the outback, their attitude was - once these new trucks are bedded in they are ultra reliable and the electronics rarely give problems. So in the end we decided on new.

We had had an "Engine Light" issue in the first 1000 Kms. It went back to MAN and they hooked it up via a satellite to Germany and someone over there diagnosed a faulty 02 sensor. It was still drivable, so hopefully things hold together like that until you can get it to a dealer.

So if he drove a series three he would not have blown a shock?,my L322 was sold with all four original shocks at 165K and it drove all over the Pilbara.When travelling into remote area's like the canning most people carry a least one front and rear shock,the corrigations break them,the reason weight reduction is so important,20'' rims a problem,my last trip across remote Oz had all five 16'' MTR's suffer complete failure at 40K,I was almost going to fill them with sand to get to the Alice,let me repeat,they were 16'' tyres,my L322's 18'' got one flat travelling the Wanaring road which is all rock,no other problem.You have brought up one bloke that had one problem,thats not really a reason to condemn a vehicle is it. Pat

[PAT303]

Another view about electronics in vehicles.

Crash analysis at Monash University Accident Research Centre (MUARC) shows that ESC is associated with:

a 32% reduction in single vehicle driver injury crashes1
a 59.6% reduction in driver injury rollover crashes1
an 81.6% reduction in 4WD rollover crashes (4WD offroad vehicles benefit significantly from ESC as they are particularly prone to roll-over crashes due to their high centre of gravity)

There is more to reaad in the howsafeisyourcar site (http://www.howsafeisyourcar.com.au/Electronic-Stability-Control/)

Get the same vehicles driven by a bunch of bikky dippers after they have loaded them 500kg over the GVM and fitted a 20'' van on the back and see how well the ESC works.I'm not having a laugh,thats 90% of vehicles you see in winter. Pat

[TerryO]

Christ there's some blow hards on this forum. Ile stick to my old clangers and you other blokes can have your over priced lame ducks.


A question if you don't mind Mr 460, given your comments on late model Land Rovers and how they are lame ducks. It would be interesting to know how often do you go seriously off roading in your old clanger to see how capable and or reliable it actually is?

When possible I often read the off road trip reports and I can't say I have ever seen one where you were actually involved.

So I wonder what real life experience you base your comments on about late model Land Rovers being lame ducks, because if you actually did go and read the trip reports there are plenty of reports that are full of story's about those lame duck Landys that you speak about.

[Chucaro]

For having an expensive rescue of a vehicle (towing) it does not have to be an expedition to a remote bush, 100 km fro Hobart it is enough to ruin the holidays and hit your back pocket hard.
We are fortunate here that we have Justin for LR vehicles and other independent mechanics for other European cars.

[460cixy]

A question if you don't mind Mr 460, given your comments on late model Land Rovers and how they are lame ducks. It would be interesting to know how often do you go seriously off roading in your old clanger to see how capable and or reliable it actually is?

When possible I often read the off road trip reports and I can't say I have ever seen one where you were actually involved.

So I wonder what real life experience you base your comments on about late model Land Rovers being lame ducks, because if you actually did go and read the trip reports there are plenty of reports that are full of story's about those lame duck Landys that you speak about.

Lets say they more then likely do more then yours ie not just towing a stupid big van down the highway because you can't go with out your noisy diesel heater for a night. I see you have an old clanger too. So it must have some sort of appeal to you. And I don't post trip reports of where I go or what I do just to stroke my ego. My old Dungers are work vehicles and get treated as such fancy pants disco can't carry a ton of wood on the back or dead critters home after a high country hunt. But there perfect I guess for biscuit dippers and caravans doing the hard yards on the hume

[101RRS]

Fight, fight, fight - ;)

I will get the popcorn out :D

[SBD4]

Terry, Can't remember if you spilled your latte while dunking your bikkie on this section of the Hume, don't think you did did you?:D

Land Rover Extreme 4x4 Offroading - AULRO Trek Mt Walker - YouTube

[windsock]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/1232.jpg

[TerryO]

Lets say they more then likely do more then yours ie not just towing a stupid big van down the highway because you can't go with out your noisy diesel heater for a night. I see you have an old clanger too. So it must have some sort of appeal to you. And I don't post trip reports of where I go or what I do just to stroke my ego. My old Dungers are work vehicles and get treated as such fancy pants disco can't carry a ton of wood on the back or dead critters home after a high country hunt. But there perfect I guess for biscuit dippers and caravans doing the hard yards on the hume

Sorry if my noisy (can't hear it inside the van by the way) diesel heater kept you awake all night 460, but one has to keep the mobile palace at a constant 21 Celsius when one is out roughing it bush camping in Belanglo Forest or I might have caught a cold. I also hope I had the volume on the TV down low enough that it didn't bother you to much either. ... ;)

So getting back to my question about what real life experience do you have with late model Disco's that would cause you to call them lame ducks it would seam the answer is none, as I thought it would be.

Good luck collecting your fire wood in your very capable Fender, personally I think I'll stick with the noisy (but extremely warm) diesel heater and the feather top queen size bed when we go camping and there is nothing quite like a flushing toilet in the middle of the night when its pouring down with rain and its -6 outside. ... :twisted:

[isuzurover]

Yes 4wd's are far too complex for the bush.

You guys should consider riding a horse instead. If the horse breaks down you can eat it while waiting for help to arrive.

Highly amusing, but the reality is most (consumer) 4x4s these days are not made to be repaired.

I was exchanging a few emails with a senior ARB engineer the other day, and was surprised by his comments about specific vehicles, that they have single use fasteners on many components (even drivetrain) and lots of parts are designed to be replaced as entire assemblies rather than repaired.

Notice I am not talking about computers or electronics here - just the trends that vehicle manufacturers are following.

A good example of this is the need to lift the entire body off a D3/D4/RRS to replace the turbo(s)!!!

[460cixy]

Sorry if my noisy (can't hear it inside the van by the way) diesel heater kept you awake all night 460, but one has to keep the mobile palace at a constant 21 Celsius when one is out roughing it bush camping in Belanglo Forest. I also hope I had the volume on the TV down low enough that it didn't bother you to much either. ... ;)

So getting back to my question about what real life experience do you have with late model Disco's that would cause you to call them lame ducks it would seam the answer is none, as I thought it would be.

Good luck collecting your fire wood I think I'll stick with the noisy (but extremely warm) diesel heater and the feather top queen size bed. ... :twisted:


How about flogged out ball joints and the quality electric park brake not that the latter is a show stopper but a pain in the arse and I'm always fixing those little gems. And it's best you stick your heater mate. I wouldn't want you to hurt your self cutting wood in your condition.

[S3ute]

Might be right for a bit of corner time out or go out and play in the yard for a while before the dialogue gets a bit out of hand?

I doubt the original intent of the posting was to do much more than pose the general question of whether or not modern 4X4s were getting a bit advanced to be bush friendly - especially in response to a fairly innocuous TV segment.

Always going to end up with polar views between the nostalgics and modernists. Doesn't need to get personal really.

Cheers

[FeatherWeightDriver]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/943.jpg

[TerryO]

How about flogged out ball joints and the quality electric park brake not that the latter is a show stopper but a pain in the arse and I'm always fixing those little gems. And it's best you stick your heater mate. I wouldn't want you to hurt your self cutting wood in your condition.

Who cares about the electric park brake, mine doesn't work so no big deal. The park brake on the caravan works really well so who really needs one in the Disco?

So next time we go out rock hopping in our lame duck Disco's do you think you might be up to tag along in the Fender? ... ;)

I promise not to bring the van it that makes you feel more comfortable. :p

[460cixy]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/943.jpg

What fight ?

[460cixy]

Who cares about the electric park brake, mine doesn't work so no big deal. The park brake on the caravan works really well so who needs one in the Disco?

So next time we go out rock hopping in our lame duck Disco's do you think you might be up to tag along in the Fender? ... ;)

I promise not to bring the van it that makes you feel more comfortable. :p

I'd be up for that and yeah leave the heater at home where it belongs.

[TerryO]

I'd be up for that and yeah leave the heater at home where it belongs.


I'll bring a tow strap just incase you need a tow home, chances are it would be the fastest your Fender has ever gone. ... ;)

No point you bringing one for me, your old girl wouldn't be able to tow nearly 3 ton of Disco. ... :angel:

Ok I'll leave the van at home but I will still bring the genie so as to keep the electric blanket on the stretcher bed warm. Remind me to bring an extra set of noise cancelling head sets so it doesn't keep you up all night. ... :cool:

[DiscoMick]

It was interesting that the TV story showed a Prado as they are not particularly hi-tech or advanced vehicles.

[shanegtr]

It was interesting that the TV story showed a Prado as they are not particularly hi-tech or advanced vehicles.

Agree, but the tech level in them would be on par with at least 80% of new vehicles sold

[TerryO]

It must have been a slow news week for them to show that story.


Having said that it isn't that far wrong and those who go to distant places no matter what they drive always risk a costly and very annoying brake down that could have been avoided in many cases if they had gone reasonably well prepared in the first place.
I would say no matter what modern 4x4 you drive a diagnostic tool that clears faults is a must, even just for peace of mind.

There is not a snow flakes chance in hell I would drive out there without the basics and now a diagnostic / fault clearing tool is beyond a doubt something that needs to be in the basic tool list in my opinion.

[Redback]

No need for me to say much, my trip reports speak for themselves, one point was made about control bushes, yes they flog out, but no worse than most bushes on any vehicle, new or old, airbags and struts normally last 200,000ks + lets see you get that out the springs and shocks in a Fender, the bushes are not a show stopper, neither are height sensors, or most of the electronics on the car which are easily replaced anyway or reset with a diagnostic tool, I don't see anymore late model cars than old duggers breaking down out there, I've been out with and seen lots of old dungers that have needed fixing or towed home, even helped them out.

Just scaremongering as far as I can see, never had any real issues with either the D2 or D4, touring around the outback, well except for breaking an axle in the D4 and an axle and CV in the D2, coincidently both at Mt Airley:twisted: but that was a day drive.

I'm confident enough in our D4 to go anywhere I want, and no amount of you dunger driving drongoes will convince me otherwise, so buggar off to some Toyota and Nissan forum and spin your opinions there:p

Baz.

[PAT303]

Terry, Can't remember if you spilled your latte while dunking your bikkie on this section of the Hume, don't think you did did you?:D

Land Rover Extreme 4x4 Offroading - AULRO Trek Mt Walker - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1GRbCe8w9Y&list=UUmc50qQ5eXuB0i2R7_oFqlg#t=163)

Just off topic,everyone should watch that video,notice there was no foot to the floor rev's trying to get up,Terry,I can assume you've never broken diffs,axles,CV's?. Pat

[TerryO]

Just off topic,everyone should watch that video,notice there was no foot to the floor rev's trying to get up,Terry,I can assume you've never broken diffs,axles,CV's?. Pat



Jeez you have put the mocker on me now Pat, just watch next time I go out in my 'lame duck' D3 I bet I'll end up breaking axles and CV's ... ;)

But the answer to your question is no I have not broken any drive line parts, having said that D3's and 4's are as close to cheating when in the rough stuff as you can get. They nearly drive themselves when the going gets a bit tough. Anyway I enjoy driving the D1 off road just as much as the D3 but as I am a sook and don't like the cold driving a vehicle home in the early hours of the morning with no heater around here when its usually -6 is enough to make sure you don't go far in winter. So the D3 tends to get used more often than not in the colder months.

[460cixy]

I'll bring a tow strap just incase you need a tow home, chances are it would be the fastest your Fender has ever gone. ... ;)

No point you bringing one for me, your old girl wouldn't be able to tow nearly 3 ton of Disco. ... :angel:

Ok I'll leave the van at home but I will still bring the genie so as to keep the electric blanket on the stretcher bed warm. Remind me to bring an extra set of noise cancelling head sets so it doesn't keep you up all night. ... :cool:

I think I can out snore the generator and we both know I can out snore the heater. The ute has not needed a tow in 372.000 and don't think it will need one any time soon.

[PAT303]

Highly amusing, but the reality is most (consumer) 4x4s these days are not made to be repaired.

I was exchanging a few emails with a senior ARB engineer the other day, and was surprised by his comments about specific vehicles, that they have single use fasteners on many components (even drivetrain) and lots of parts are designed to be replaced as entire assemblies rather than repaired.

Notice I am not talking about computers or electronics here - just the trends that vehicle manufacturers are following.

A good example of this is the need to lift the entire body off a D3/D4/RRS to replace the turbo(s)!!!

Taking the body off is reverse of assembly,they are made that way.How long does it take to remove the body and re-fit,12hrs and you sit right next to the thing as if it was on a bench,try changing a turbo on another make of 4wd the old way,how long does that take and will the job be as good seeing you need triple jointed elbows for most of it?.One use fasteners are decades old,it means reliability as old bolts aren't used,sub assemblies are old hat,again set-up from the factory means no mistakes,it also means the parts price is higher but labour is lower,the hubs on L322 are an example,you replace the lot,wheel bearings pre set pre lubed all new seals stubs the lot,old one off,new one on,perfect. Pat

[PAT303]

You have put the mocker on me now Pat, just watch next time I go out in my 'lame duck' D3 I'll end up breaking axles and CV's ...

But the answer to your question is no I have not broken any drive line parts, having said that D3's and 4's are as close to cheating when in the rough stuff as you can get. They nearly drive themselves when the going gets tough.

Just making a point Terry,notice that some people can go anywhere without issue's yet others can't even go down the beach without breaking things?,just an observation. Pat

[460cixy]

No need for me to say much, my trip reports speak for themselves, one point was made about control bushes, yes they flog out, but no worse than most bushes on any vehicle, new or old, airbags and struts normally last 200,000ks + lets see you get that out the springs and shocks in a Fender, the bushes are not a show stopper, neither are height sensors, or most of the electronics on the car which are easily replaced anyway or reset with a diagnostic tool, I don't see anymore late model cars than old duggers breaking down out there, I've been out with and seen lots of old dungers that have needed fixing or towed home, even helped them out.

Just scaremongering as far as I can see, never had any real issues with either the D2 or D4, touring around the outback, well except for breaking an axle in the D4 and an axle and CV in the D2, coincidently both at Mt Airley:twisted: but that was a day drive.

I'm confident enough in our D4 to go anywhere I want, and no amount of you dunger driving drongoes will convince me otherwise, so buggar off to some Toyota and Nissan forum and spin your opinions there:p

Baz.


No need to be nasty Bazza but if it floats ya boat

[clubagreenie]

No need to be nasty Bazza but if it floats ya boat

A bit rich following some of your comments.


Just making a point Terry,notice that some people can go anywhere without issue's yet others can't even go down the beach without breaking things?,just an observation. Pat

Yes. Land Rovers don't break axles. Drivers do.

[460cixy]

A bit rich following some of your comments.



Yes. Land Rovers don't break axles. Drivers do.

Sorry there's still no sarcasm font. As for axels some people can't get around a car park with out breaking somthing

[Ancient Mariner]

From now to about xmas the cape would have the easiest 4x4 driving on the east coast with a Disco RangeRover or even a Puma or TD5 in there element.
A bit of sand some washed out creek crossings plenty dust and corrugations.
From Xmas till about May June every thing changes where the mechanical injection diesels are top dog Anybody who takes either of the earlier mentioned vehicles up there at that time has either to much money and time or likes pretty lights:D


AM

[460cixy]

Been there done that. Some of the fuel available is not the greatest at times too. The old boilers will chew through it with little protest but the common rail pump and piezo injectors on the other hand not so much. But at least there comfortable while there waiting for parts.

[rar110]

.... my L322 was sold with all four original shocks at 165K and it drove all over ...
Pat

What, you've sold the L322? Missed another good one.

[PAT303]

What, you've sold the L322? Missed another good one.

Bloody oath it was a good vehicle,the RR Td6 is the best 4wd wagon ever sold in Austalia IMHO. Pat

[PAT303]

Been there done that. Some of the fuel available is not the greatest at times too. The old boilers will chew through it with little protest but the common rail pump and piezo injectors on the other hand not so much. But at least there comfortable while there waiting for parts.

Your making yourself look foolish mate,just letting you know. Pat

[inside]

From Xmas till about May June every thing changes where the mechanical injection diesels are top dog Anybody who takes either of the earlier mentioned vehicles up there at that time has either to much money and time or likes pretty lights:D
I know what you're saying having been there in June this year it is mechanical diesel heaven. It felt like I was taking the old 110 back to it's birthplace, as much as it feels wrong in the city it just feels so right up there and well anywhere bush really.

People can say modern cars can do x and y just like the old but for me an old tech vehicle is just all part of the experience of going bush. It's about leaving the modern life behind and really getting back to basics. It's why I don't have a camper and just love cooking a meal of the tail gate. Long live the old stuff for the bush.

Here's us at Nolan's in June this year.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/1175.jpg

[isuzurover]

Taking the body off is reverse of assembly,they are made that way.How long does it take to remove the body and re-fit,12hrs and you sit right next to the thing as if it was on a bench,...

As usual, in your rush to be a LR apologist you missed my point. Hopefully this crappy photoshop makes my point better...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[TerryO]

Seriously this is actually becoming comical with some of the daft things being said.

Sure I have said some pretty silly things myself in this thread, most of it was me just winding up me old mate 460, but while I was joking and taking the **** most of you lot actually believe your own BS.

Good luck with it.

[Chops]

Humm,, interesting discussion.

Personally, I don't see any issues with having state of the art electrics in a 4x4, but like anything, I think Maintainance is the key, regardless of age/sophistication. I would welcome a D4 as we'll if I had the cash ;)

Some will be aware of my fuel problem recently, which is something that's always played in the back of my mind when it comes time to tour out in the never never,,, which, is why we specifically bought the Puma.
So, fuel problem was either due to crappy fuel, or the fuel filter not being replaced at service (40k). However, if it was "actually" a water problem, then why did they need to replace every Injector, Sensor, Fuel Pump as well as the ECU. I suspect I may have been issued a bit of a lemon where electrics are concerned :( As discussed with the Dyno guy two weeks ago, most dealers choose to just swap parts out, rather than find the root cause to the issue at hand. I suspect with the D4's and equivalent in other brands, more information might be at hand on they're comps/diagnostic equipment etc, than what's available with mine.

So, now I'm left in the position where I'm even more worried. So does one go all out and carry spare injectors etc, and then the equipment needed to read and pilot drive the replacement parts in order to carry on, or does one give up and go "old school", where you can presumably rebuild said part??
For me, I'll stick with the new, and work on the regular maint theory along with being forearmed with knowledge and spares which, IMHO, any half intelligent traveller/explorer would do anyway.

Everything is capable of breaking. Treating em mean to keep em keen, doesn't work with cars unless your loaded with cash. Drive to the conditions. After all, your out there to explore, not race, so what's the point of going like a bull at a gate.

I did see on one of Roothy's dvd's some time ago where a 4x4 was stranded up at the Cape because he got water in his key fob, and now the car has to be trucked back to the dealer to be fixed.

[rar110]

That's scary.

[Redback]

I know what you're saying having been there in June this year it is mechanical diesel heaven. It felt like I was taking the old 110 back to it's birthplace, as much as it feels wrong in the city it just feels so right up there and well anywhere bush really.

People can say modern cars can do x and y just like the old but for me an old tech vehicle is just all part of the experience of going bush. It's about leaving the modern life behind and really getting back to basics. It's why I don't have a camper and just love cooking a meal of the tail gate. Long live the old stuff for the bush.

Here's us at Nolan's in June this year.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/1175.jpg

I do the same things you do, the only real difference, is the car I take bush, done the above photo, with a camper on.

You guys keep going about modern car like there scarey and to comfortable, it's hilarious really.


I drive what I want, not what you people think I or we should drive, I could go on and on about all the things that go wrong with all the OLD vehicles problems on here, but why, you want to drive that vehicle and good onya, but don't come prooking your opinions about me and others here that choose to drive a modern vehicle.

Anyway I'm done, I can't believe fellow Land Rover owners and some very intellegent, can act so much like the nongs on 4WDA, Overlander, ExplorOz and all the other Land Rover hating Forums, very disappointing:(

Baz.

[460cixy]

Your making yourself look foolish mate,just letting you know. Pat

Something about a pot and a kettle comes to mind here! So common rails have no problems on substandard fuel then? O:whistling:

[TerryO]

I'll see your slightly damp bonnet and raise you.

The main difference between the two vehicles is the door seals in the D3 are rated by Land Rover to keep water out even at this depth where as the 110 would have been leaking like a sieve.
No big deal if you prefer a cold wet arse then that is your choice, personally I would rather be the bloke in the D3 sitting in a nice dry cabin listening to surround sound music on the Harmon Kardon stereo while ordering Thai home delivery on the blue tooth phone connection.

[inside]

I'll see your slightly damp bonnet and raise you.
Is this you? Looks deep, you're more keen than me doubt I would go through that.

I got the Harmon Kardon upgrade on my new BMW should be here in November. The engine has electric water and oil pumps which would scare any Isuzu owner, I like tech but like getting away from it too. Shame I didn't see more Discos up the cape.

[Redback]

Is this you? Looks deep, you're more keen than me doubt I would go through that.

I got the Harmon Kardon upgrade on my new BMW should be here in November. The engine has electric water and oil pumps which would scare any Isuzu owner, I like tech but like getting away from it too. Shame I didn't see more Discos up the cape.

I almost bought a Perentie a couple of weeks ago, but was out bid on the auction, was very disappointed, last one too, couldn't even change my bid to another one:(

Still might happen, if things change at home, I really find them appealing for some reason.

Baz.

[TerryO]

Is this you? Looks deep, you're more keen than me doubt I would go through that.

I got the Harmon Kardon upgrade on my new BMW should be here in November. The engine has electric water and oil pumps which would scare any Isuzu owner, I like tech but like getting away from it too. Shame I didn't see more Discos up the cape.

No it's not me and to be frank you wouldn't find me doing that in either my (leaky) D1 or my (water tight) D3 if I had a choice.
Equally so I avoid mud baths which so many people like playing in. Obviously if its a case of that is the terrain you must cross to get from point A to point B then there is no choice.

I was just pointing out with that picture that a D3 or 4 can also do similar to what you were doing, that doesn't take anything away from your exploits, rather given this discussion it just shows you don't have to be in an older 4x4 to actually do similar.

[PAT303]

As usual, in your rush to be a LR apologist you missed my point. Hopefully this crappy photoshop makes my point better...

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/general-chat/83569d1410354651-4wds-too-high-tech-bush-gum-tree_rrs.jpg

And with this reply we are now more pathetic than Exploroz. Pat

[PAT303]

Something about a pot and a kettle comes to mind here! So common rails have no problems on substandard fuel then? O:whistling:

Ever had it happen to you?,me neither. Pat

[rangietragic]

Can't believe how petty you blokes are getting.:oWe all drive land rovers which as you have heard are lucky to get to the shops and back,let alone take one off road!Personally i would feel more confident taking my td5 130 to the cape than my td6 L322,even though with the right tyres it is probably more capable than the defender,but i don't have a diagnostic tool yet.I admit high tech scares me a bit,as i am not overly tech savvy.However,preperation is the key.IMHO a lot of problems are caused by the nut holding the steering wheel.We all have our opinions and preferences but we choose to not be sheep and follow the flock.So lets be nice to each other,remember it's us against the nissota sheep;)

[PAT303]

I'll see your slightly damp bonnet and raise you.

The main difference between the two vehicles is the door seals in the D3 are rated by Land Rover to keep water out even at this depth where as the 110 would have been leaking like a sieve.
No big deal if you prefer a cold wet arse then that is your choice, personally I would rather be the bloke in the D3 sitting in a nice dry cabin listening to surround sound music on the Harmon Kardon stereo while ordering Thai home delivery on the blue tooth phone connection.

And we have a winner.If you haven't seen it watch the top gear special on the L405 RR,James May drives it into a lake they test military vehicles in,it was winter and the bonnet was completely submerged,no RAI fitted and ice built up against the windscreen,straight through on road tyres. Pat

[460cixy]

Ever had it happen to you?,me neither. Pat

No problems with fuel even on the old chip oil. Wonder how one of these new devices would like running on old chip fat we all know how much they like a little water in the fuel.

[TerryO]

No problems with fuel even on the old chip oil. Wonder how one of these new devices would like running on old chip fat we all know how much they like a little water in the fuel.

And you think that is actually good? ...:angel:

Water in the fuel is no big deal just fit a separator, end of problems so end of the big bad bandied about story you mob are relying on to prove how your superior your vehicles are.
If you like running your Fender on old chip oil with a liberal dose of water mixed in to prove how TUFF it is then that is your choice.

And if that is the best example you can give to justify that your vehicles are superior then if it makes you feel better I will say you win. Yes your old Dunger more than likely can run on discarded old chip oil with water mixed in, mine won't but who in their right mind would want to even try?

[shanegtr]

Vehicles are simply machines, all machines will break at some point due to multiple reasons. The more components you have the higher the probability of failure. So you run the risk of breakages no matter what you drive. Weather or not your failure is fixable in the bush is another matter

[460cixy]

And you think that is actually good? ...:angel:

Water in the fuel is no big deal just fit a separator, end of problems so end of the big bad bandied about story you mob are relying on to prove how your superior your vehicles are.
If you like running your Fender on old chip oil with a liberal dose of water mixed in to prove how TUFF it is then that is your choice.

And if that is the best example you can give to justify that your vehicles are superior then if it makes you feel better I will say you win. Yes your old Dunger more than likely can run on discarded old chip oil with water mixed in, mine won't but who in their right mind would want to even try?

You mean to say these ultra new bush warriors don't have a decent water trap?

[TerryO]

Nope, believe it or not land Rover don't fit true water separators, they have a warning system supposedly that I think is built into the tank, but that's not quite the same thing as a separate in line water separator.

Even our old SsangYong Rexton has one under the bonnet, its a pain to drain, but you can actually drain it without any tools.

[460cixy]

Nope, believe it or not land Rover don't fit true water separators, they have a warning system supposedly that I think is built into the tank, but that's not quite the same thing as a separate in line water separator.

Even our old SsangYong Rexton has one under the bonnet, its a pain to drain, but you can actually drain it without any tools.

A lot of this new stuff seems to lack a decent water trap not just land rovers madness considering what h20 is capable of in late model pumps

[mikehzz]

I don't like the trend of companies building "off road" cars that you have trouble buying off road tyres for. I don't care about the rest of the so called problems. New cars are nice.

[Tote]

The challenge with water traps on a single rail diesel is that the tank contents are circulated to provide cooling and lubrication to the system at the rate of many litres per hour. If water gets into the system in a large amount such as refuelling from a contaminated tank then a seperator large enough to cope with this amount of water rapidly circulated through the system is necessary. Most common rail systems are designed to trap and alarm when the amount of water that may enter the system from when condensate is encountered.
It's not only common rails that have an issue with water either. When I was a young bloke we had to have all 3 injectors on our Fiat 540 tractor rebuilt due to water accumulation that exceeded the capacity of the trap ( or the ability of the operator to empty it) and my elderly neighbour on the farm has a Fordson Super Major sitting under a tree that the cost of repairing the injection system exceeds the value of the tractor.

Regards,
Tote

[Dougal]

Standard practise here for farmers is to fit an additional filter/seperator to new utes.

But simply this is for the 1 percenters. The other 99% of owners don't know, don't care and never have a problem.

Do you really expect manufacturers to build for the last 1%?

[TerryO]

Depending on who you are insured with if you get water in your fuel and it buggers the fuel system them they will replace most everything.


Doesn't help if your in the middle of no where but in general doesn't cost to get fixed and the average bill is around $12,000 from memory. I think there is the mob in Sydney who offer water separators for D3/4's for about $1200 fitted from memory.

[Dougal]

I think there is the mob in Sydney who offer water separators for D3/4's for about $1200 fitted from memory.

That's a good deal for them! :eek:

[460cixy]

Talking to bloke from the workshop up the street bmw dealer he told me about a chick that put petrol in hers and killed it insurance covered it no dramas a week later she did it again was not so lucky the second time Insurance said no deal.

[Dougal]

Talking to bloke from the workshop up the street bmw dealer he told me about a chick that put petrol in hers and killed it insurance covered it no dramas a week later she did it again was not so lucky the second time Insurance said no deal.

Petrol has been done many times. Most people can drain and refill with diesel and be on their merry way.

But if you take it to a dealer they'll replace EVERYTHING that petrol touched.

[Redback]

That's a good deal for them! :eek:

This one may be slightly cheaper;)
Terrain Tamer Fuel Manager Diesel Fuel Filter and Water Separator - All Four X 4 Spares (http://shop.allfourx4.com.au/Terrain-Tamer-Fuel-Manager-Diesel-Fuel-Filter-and-Water-Separator)

This one also
http://www.cando4x4.com.au/p/6117231/diesel-fuel-pre-filter-universal-kit-with-water-separator.html

[460cixy]

Yeah it's not allways a death sentence but I think in this case the pump was well rooted then of course that ends up in the injectors. When I was at a ford dealership for a few years misfueled transits were very common and plenty survived being drained and refilled and plenty did not luck of the draw I think

[uninformed]

Some interesting comments here. I especially like the one saying good luck getting 200k kms out of coils and shocks on a defender......

Hmmm

[67hardtop]

While trundling along in my 2a towing homemade camper trailer, engine running on 3 due to recessed exhaust valve caused by unleaded fuel (in 2006), I was passed at great speed by a driver in a new pajero with shiny alloy bull bar towing a boat about the size of the Titanic, giving me gestures with his longest finger for going so slow through a very windey part of the road, double white lines, no passing, on the way back from Marion Bay on YP. Some time later I passed this same gentleman standing in front of his MIGHTY Pajero with the Titanic sitting behind it, dead roo in front of Pajero, hazards flashing, screaming into phone. Air bags deployed, pagero now failing to proceed. Felt sorry for the roo but not the driver. I still got home ok, slowly but I did get there. Modern technology, Where would we be without it....still getting home....

Cheers Rod:wasntme:

[Chucaro]

It would be interesting to see a graph with amount of factory vehicles recalls before and after the year 1996.
Just for a comparison. That will give a fair idea of problems in cars with and without sophisticated electronics even if some models of European cars used to have some electronics back in the mid 1990's

[Chucaro]

Found some info here:
Automobile Recall Statistics (http://www.statisticbrain.com/automobile-recall-statistics/)

[rar110]

I'll see your slightly damp bonnet and raise you.

The main difference between the two vehicles is the door seals in the D3 are rated by Land Rover to keep water out even at this depth where as the 110 would have been leaking like a sieve.
No big deal if you prefer a cold wet arse then that is your choice, personally I would rather be the bloke in the D3 sitting in a nice dry cabin listening to surround sound music on the Harmon Kardon stereo while ordering Thai home delivery on the blue tooth phone connection.

I thought Inside's pic was scary.

[PAT303]

It would be interesting to see a graph with amount of factory vehicles recalls before and after the year 1996.
Just for a comparison. That will give a fair idea of problems in cars with and without sophisticated electronics even if some models of European cars used to have some electronics back in the mid 1990's
We had the whole fleet of Land Cruisers,Prado's,Hilux's recalled from Xstrada coal because of faulty welding,about 200 vehicles,that was early '90's,electrics weren't the issue. Pat

[Chucaro]

We had the whole fleet of Land Cruisers,Prado's,Hilux's recalled from Xstrada coal because of faulty welding,about 200 vehicles,that was early '90's,electrics weren't the issue. Pat

A yearly list of recalled Toyota vehicles is HERE (http://www.recalls.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/952857/fromItemId/952855)

[inside]

And we have a winner.If you haven't seen it watch the top gear special on the L405 RR,James May drives it into a lake they test military vehicles in,it was winter and the bonnet was completely submerged,no RAI fitted and ice built up against the windscreen,straight through on road tyres. Pat
Haha you believe television too much. According to this site he went through at least 5 tires or was it 11 rims. Laughable that you use a Top Gear test to back up any sort of fact. I love the show but factual it isn't.
James May Destroyed 11 Wheels During Top Gear's Range Rover Test (UPDATE: NOT REALLY) (http://jalopnik.com/james-may-destroyed-11-wheels-during-top-gears-range-r-471836901)

[vnx205]

There is a school of thought that says that parts not fitted cost nothing, weigh nothing and can't break down.

On that basis, it gives me great comfort knowing that I can take my Defender off-road and be confident that i will not suffer the great inconvenience of having the cup holders break.

:p

[bob10]

Well, all I can get out of this conversation is I probably won't see a lot of you fellas out in the bush. I'll be there in my old D2. Don't park close to me, I go bush to get away from people. Cheers, Bob

[vnx205]

Well, all I can get out of this conversation is I probably won't see a lot of you fellas out in the bush. I'll be there in my old D2. Don't park close to me, I go bush to get away from people. Cheers, Bob

I am amused by the description of a Discovery 2 as an "old D2". :)

My Defender is a 1998 model and i think of it as a new vehicle.

Perhaps that is because it replaced a 33 year old Series III. I was prepared to accept that by 2006, my Series III was getting a bit old.
:D

[bob10]

I am amused by the description of a Discovery 2 as an "old D2". :)

My Defender is a 1998 model and i think of it as a new vehicle.

Perhaps that is because it replaced a 33 year old Series III. I was prepared to accept that by 2006, my Series III was getting a bit old.
:D


Ok, you got me, you crusty old Land Rover drivers can't be beat, Bob
:p

[JDNSW]

He beat me to it - neither of my Landrovers was built after the first Discovery was released, let alone the D2.

John

[bob10]

He beat me to it - neither of my Landrovers was built after the first Discovery was released, let alone the D2.

John


So, the question must be asked, would you drive a D2 into remote areas? On your own. Bob

[vnx205]

I wonder how many D3 owners think of they have an old vehicle?:D

There might even be some D4 owners who think their vehicle is old just because it is last year's model. :D:D

[bob10]

We are getting away from the question, all you owners of old Land rovers can skite all you like, if you want. Doesn't answer the question. Bob

[Rextheute]

New vehicles are fantastic , unfortunately you can't take stupid out of humans ......

So, the vehicles will carry on even tho the operator probably should have ( re ) considered their options .

And yes I own old vehicles !

I miss the physcality of my old bangers - right up until I'm about to do up to 1000km a day towing a caravan or a camper !

And thats where the new vehicles shine , In the industry I am involved in , the list would go , Ranger - Dmax - Prado -Patrol -Hilux .
Yes there are landrovers also , but very few . The funny thing is the other makes get modified in order to travel , whereas most Land Rovers get new tyres ....

[Chucaro]

We are getting away from the question, all you owners of old Land rovers can skite all you like, if you want. Doesn't answer the question. Bob
And the question is not only about Land Rover is for any brand.

[bob10]

And the question is not only about Land Rover is for any brand.


Hullo, Mr Chucaro, all I hope is my not so old/ new land rover can make it to Tasmania one day. Bob

[4x4 MORE]

There is a school of thought that says that parts not fitted cost nothing, weigh nothing and can't break down.

On that basis, it gives me great comfort knowing that I can take my Defender off-road and be confident that i will not suffer the great inconvenience of having the cup holders break.

:p

Wow..that's soo True! make so much sense!, no wounder the Army chose a basic 110 for the Australian fleet! and used them for soo many years:p

[isuzurover]

This thread has gotten a bit silly and off topic.

For remote area touring I don't believe a new 4x4 of any make is any less reliable than an older 4x4 of the same or similar make.

Newer 4x4s are however harder to repair if something goes wrong in a remote area. I suspect this will mean they will likely see less use for touring as they age. The manufacturers view these vehicles as throwaway items and would be happy if they were scrapped once they reach 10 yo or so.

Before the barrage of comments, some cases in point that I encountered on recent trips and had to repair (note in most cases these were repairs I had to do to other people's vehicles in the group - not my own).

1. Vibration fracture of radiator tank (RRC). This was easily repaired in the bush using a small blow torch and solder salvaged from the tank. A new(er) vehicle would have had plastic tanks - making the repair at the very least a lot more difficult.

2. Fuel pump failure (RRC). I happened to have a spare (Generic) fuel pump for my (diesel) sill tank which was close enough to do the job on a (petrol) RRC. A newer vehicle would have a vehicle specific in-tank high pressure pump.

3. Thermostat failure - fix was to remove thermostat. I assume this would be just as easy on a new vehicle.

4. Shock turret failure - used ratchet strap as limit strap. This would presumablly also be possible on a new vehicle.

5. Radiator hose (hilux) rubbed through on dual battery mount. Replaced hose with spare - gain just as easy on a new vehicle.

6. Clutch hydraulics failure - started in gear and drove ~500 km with no clutch. Not sure if a newer (manual) would allow this?

7. Brake line fracture (x2). Blocked off problem brake line and drove 000's of km with no rear brakes.

[Wheelan]

In my experience with breakdowns and being stuck, 90 % of the time it has been a mechanical failure,ie something has broken with no way of fixing it or damage from a driving accident or animal collision and this is 90 % of the time other people I have travelled with. Electronic driver aids can be very helpful in accident situations and sometimes not. Computer protection of vehicle components can in most circumstances eliminate permanent failure ie over heating etc. I have had 2 friends with TD42 Patrols that have 1. broken a piston, probably the first and only and 2. a broken injector pump. Both these cars had been well maintained and under 200k km. These cars are said to be one of the most reliable vehicles ever made. To this I think there is a greater power looking over us all :angel: Maybe there was a possibility of a catastrophic incident in which this was avoided by you being stranded.:angel: I dunno, In these situations you have to look on the upside. What I have done is tempted fate and gone to the dark side and purchased a second hand D4 3 ltr. We will see how this goes, all I know is if I got a PRADO I probably would have smashed just through total boredom!
First post out the way.

[Chucaro]

If we see the amount of the factory vehicle recalls in the last 10 years we also can think that it can be for two reasons, one quality control and the second more sophisticated equipped vehicles and perhaps not proper trained the work force that assembly the vehicles.
I would be more happy touring in a basic equipped vehicle like a Defender Tdi300 or the County than a new heavily optioned models regardless of the brand.

[Didge]

Wow, previous pages in this thread read like a Jap owner vs Land Rover argument - wouldn't think we're all on the same team here judging by the comments being thrown around.

[Didge]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/943.jpg
Besides, what's on offer if I do come to bed? More nagging????

Having been out in my old Deefer with a few D3's and a D4 HSE for a weekend trip, I must admit I lust after a nice D4 with the same enthusiasm i might lust after a much younger woman (only cos I know the D4 would be more likely and that's not gonna happen anyway) cos I've seen a D4 in particular crawl effortlessly over steep rock ledges, etc barely spinning a wheel (I guess the computers where working overtime) whilst the older Deefers and County's relied on aftermarket lockers or LSD's and a fair bit of right boot in the mix. Still, it's less distressing I guess, to get home and see a dent or two and a bunch of extra bush pinstriping on an older car than it would be on a $50k plus car.

[Naviguesser]

I was happy enough with my D2, it never gave me an issue during the time I owned it. Only sold it because I needed a daily driver car (no more company car) and it was getting long in the tooth (380000km) to put 25000 - 30000km a year on.

I bought something new and Japanese only because a D4 was out of my price range. But I have just got back from a desert trip with older cars that had problems and my modern car full of electronics never missed a beat.
Would I take on remote trips again? Certainly!

Mind you I do have this hankering to get an old Defender as a project car in a year or so when I have more time and money again.

[TerryO]

Wow, previous pages in this thread read like a Jap owner vs Land Rover argument - wouldn't think we're all on the same team here judging by the comments being thrown around.


..... X2

[Tombie]

Still, it's less distressing I guess, to get home and see a dent or two and a bunch of extra bush pinstriping on an older car than it would be on a $50k plus car.

Nah, use it for what its made to do :cool:

Bush damage doesn't bother me... ****n Car park damage - :censored::censored::censored:

[mikehzz]

Besides, what's on offer if I do come to bed? More nagging????

.....

Didge....It sounds like you are having an affair with my wife? :D

[gusthedog]

So, the question must be asked, would you drive a D2 into remote areas? On your own. Bob

Yes. I have taken my D2 to remote areas on my own and will continue to do so until I can afford a 'new' car. I might need a 7 seater the way kids keep appearing at my joint though. :D. Maybe a nice 'new' D2a with 7 seats? That's the newest I'll ever be able to afford. When they drop in price a bit in a few years ;)

My insurance policy is a sat phone an epirb. I'd never travel remotely without either.

[DiscoMick]

Its an interesting argument about whether electronics are actually making vehicles more reliable than mechanical systems.

[JDNSW]

Its an interesting argument about whether electronics are actually making vehicles more reliable than mechanical systems.

I think they are now, after a somewhat shaky start. The problem arises because the manufacturers have taken advantage of the introduction of electronics both to make vehicles less repairable, and to make it difficult to repair them outside their dealer's workshops. There is nothing inherent in electronics to make this necessary.

John

[TerryO]

Didge....It sounds like you are having an affair with my wife? :D


Sounds like he is having an affair with most everyone's wives, ... bloody Defender owners I knew you couldn't trust the buggers ... ;)

[Gerokent]

I think they are now, after a somewhat shaky start. The problem arises because the manufacturers have taken advantage of the introduction of electronics both to make vehicles less repairable, and to make it difficult to repair them outside their dealer's workshops. There is nothing inherent in electronics to make this necessary.

John

I reckon you are right there,John.
But there is more possibility of making repairs to mechanical things than repairing things electronic out in the wilds.
Can't twitch up a transistor with a bit of fencing wire.

[101RRS]

But there is more possibility of making repairs to mechanical things than repairing things electronic out in the wilds.
Can't twitch up a transistor with a bit of fencing wire.

So - other than an ignition module on a RV8 has anyone actually had electronics fail out in the bush - the sort of electronics that you would not reasonably carry a spare for. Did the failure actually kill your car until fixed or just retard it?

Garry

[Gerokent]

I had a flat battery which necessetated a 20km walk because of electronics. If it was an old series, a crank handle would have sorted the problem.:D

[TerryO]

I reckon you are right there,John.
But there is more possibility of making repairs to mechanical things than repairing things electronic out in the wilds.
Can't twitch up a transistor with a bit of fencing wire.

Nor can you replace a blown rear main seal that pukes all your engine oil out on the ground and also makes your clutch slip with a bit of fence wire. There are dozens of examples one could use that are reasonably common mechanical failures that any vehicle could suffer from to give good reason why no vehicle should never been taken into the outback.

All this fuss about electronics being unreliable mainly from people who have never owned a late model vehicle and have no experience and are just repeating someone else's supposed horror story's. ... :angel:

[TerryO]

I had a flat battery which necessetated a 20km walk because of electronics. If it was an old series, a crank handle would have sorted the problem.:D

If you had a good dual battery system then you could have started the engine using the second battery. That is more a case of good preparation and planning for potentially common scenarios.

[101RRS]

I had a flat battery which necessetated a 20km walk because of electronics. If it was an old series, a crank handle would have sorted the problem.:D

That was a battery failure not electronics and the series would not have started if had an alternator.

Actually would a generator equipped series engine start on a crank handle with a completely flat battery - would cranking the engine provide enough power from the generator to fire the ignition??

Garry

[bob10]

Yes. I have taken my D2 to remote areas on my own and will continue to do so until I can afford a 'new' car. I might need a 7 seater the way kids keep appearing at my joint though. :D. Maybe a nice 'new' D2a with 7 seats? That's the newest I'll ever be able to afford. When they drop in price a bit in a few years ;)

My insurance policy is a sat phone an epirb. I'd never travel remotely without either.


Me too. The secret in trusting your vehicle is to get to know it. Do as much of the maintenance as you can, Know what makes it tick, so to speak. Not saying nothing could go wrong, just that you would be more confident in dealing with it. And try to carry the appropriate spares, in case Murphy calls. Bob

[TerryO]

Garry it would start if it had a magneto fitted. ... :angel: ;)

[101RRS]

Garry it would start if it had a magneto fitted. ... :angel: ;)

But they don't :p

[TerryO]

I know, I was being a smartarse ... But you knew that already ...;)

[Gerokent]

A computer controlled engine needs at least 10 volts, but not so a points ignition; it could be 8 volts and still start with a crank handle or push start.

[bob10]

What's a magneto?..........:angel: Bob

[TerryO]

What's a magneto?..........:angel: Bob


What Bob! ... Seriously don't you know?


Magneto - Marvel Comics Database (http://marvel.wikia.com/Magneto)

[JDNSW]

When looking at the distrust of electronics in the bush, I think it may be instructive to look at the attitude to diesels in the bush fifty or sixty years ago.

"You can fix a carby in the bush, but not a fuel injector"

"No good, you can't crank start it if the battery is flat"

Believe it or not, when I was working in the Simpson Desert in the mid sixties, we had about fourteen or fifteen vehicles, from short wheelbase 4x4s to fifteen ton 6x6s - and the only diesel engines were the camp generator and a stand alone air compressor. (and my Landrover!) At that time Landrover was the only available diesel 4x4, and they were not very popular.

John

[Tombie]

**** guys - I take my D4 to places like Emu Junction and Maralinga and don't even take spares...

I have *that* much faith in the vehicle, my diagnostic capability AND my service checks.

[mikehzz]

And I heard that Tombie is fantastic at getting out and pushing cars....

[vnx205]

So - other than an ignition module on a RV8 has anyone actually had electronics fail out in the bush - the sort of electronics that you would not reasonably carry a spare for. Did the failure actually kill your car until fixed or just retard it?

Garry

Does a battery failing because the connection between a couple of cells broke count as an electronic failure?

Does a Series III Land Rover count as a modern hi-tech 4WD? :D

It wasn't a problem at all. Even with the broken connection, enough current flowed for the engine to run. Starting was accomplished with the crank handle.

So not only did it not kill the Series III, it didn't even retard it. :p:p:p

[vnx205]

When looking at the distrust of electronics in the bush, I think it may be instructive to look at the attitude to diesels in the bush fifty or sixty years ago.

... .... ...

"No good, you can't crank start it if the battery is flat"

... .... ...

John

That was probably a greater concern back then.

I seem to remember that it was a common belief that in an FJ Holden, it was advisable to switch off the headlights before turning off the ignition.

The story was that if you did things in the opposite order, you might not be able to start the next morning.

[101RRS]

A computer controlled engine needs at least 10 volts, but not so a points ignition; it could be 8 volts and still start with a crank handle or push start.


Does a battery failing because the connection between a couple of cells broke count as an electronic failure?

It wasn't a problem at all. Even with the broken connection, enough current flowed for the engine to run. Starting was accomplished with the crank handle.

So not only did it not kill the Series III, it didn't even retard it. :p:p:p

We I don't necessarily agree - has anyone removed the battery on a geny fitted vehicle and actually been able to start it on the crank handle??

On a vehicle with a alt and a completely dead battery I gave used two big 6 volt torch batteries wired together to excite the alternator to start the engine on a push start and it would keep running with the alternator putting enough out into the battery to keep it excited.

Garry

[JDNSW]

That was probably a greater concern back then.

I seem to remember that it was a common belief that in an FJ Holden, it was advisable to switch off the headlights before turning off the ignition.

The story was that if you did things in the opposite order, you might not be able to start the next morning.

About the time the 48-215 Holden was released, an uncle of mine got a new Vauxhall (Wyvern, I think). It was the first car anyone in the family had seen a car without provision for a crank handle, and all sorts of disasters were predicted. It was a bit disastrous, but nothing to do with as crankhandle - it threw a con rod at high speed about two years later. He was headmaster of Yanco Agricultural High School, and usually made a fast trip to Sydney each holidays. Coincidentally, I am dropping in on his son in Orange on my way to Castle Hill on Saturday.

The early Holdens suffered from a six volt electrical system, and a rather small battery - not much safety margin. And no, they did not have provision for a crankhandle.

John

John

[2stroke]

The crank handle was my favourite part of my old S2a drove it to work for nearly 2 weeks without a startermotor while the armature was being rewound. Come to think of it I used the crankhandle on the 2 door Rangie too. Then again I drove the 130 from north of well 46 to Kunawarritji on the CSR with the broken alternator in an icecream container on the rear floor.

[scarry]

**** guys - I take my D4 to places like Emu Junction and Maralinga and don't even take spares...

I have *that* much faith in the vehicle, my diagnostic capability AND my service checks.

Exactly

Last year we did a solo 6500k trip from here through central Aus,returning from Alice to Brisbane across the desert,the only spare was a spare tyre carcass.Sure i took the usual tools,wire,tape,etc.
Didn't use them.

[Graeme]

On a vehicle with a alt and a completely dead battery I gave used two big 6 volt torch batteries wired together to excite the alternator to start the engine on a push start and it would keep running with the alternator putting enough out into the battery to keep it excited.
My father often crank-started his Morris 8 using a 6V torch battery to power the coil. I wouldn't swap my electronics-filled D4 for it though.

[Slunnie]

My father often crank-started his Morris 8 using a 6V torch battery to power the coil. I wouldn't swap my electronics-filled D4 for it though.
Thats exactly it. Old cars were unreliable and needed to be fixed all of the time. The modern motor vehicle is more complex and infinitely more reliable. As a kid there were always broken down cars on the side of the road, especially on a hot day. Not now. Apart from dunking a car and stopping in the water, you're not likely to break down, and if it does, it will probably be something mechanical anyway which by many peoples definition means that any mechanic in the outback can fix it anyway. Even reading on here, the vast majority of breakdowns don't seem to be electronics related. Its still just a motor, gearbox and diffs under those plastic covers, they're not that much different still.

[bob10]

**** guys - I take my D4 to places like Emu Junction and Maralinga and don't even take spares...

I have *that* much faith in the vehicle, my diagnostic capability AND my service checks.


Talk to me when your D4 has 378.000 KM's on the clock, like my old/new D2. Bob
;)

[Didge]

Sounds to me like an argument between a tirfor and an electric winch. Which one you gonna use first and will the other one, despite its inherent simplicity, reliability and all your physical efforts, be able to get you out of the same jam?

[Redback]

Talk to me when your D4 has 378.000 KM's on the clock, like my old/new D2. Bob
;)

Clutching at straws now Bob, read this post, I see your 378,000ks and raise you 486,000ks:p

Read the whole thing.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/190510-so-who-has-highest-mileage-tdv6-2.html

Baz.

[bob10]

Clutching at straws now Bob, read this post, I see your 378,000ks and raise you 486,000ks:p

Read the whole thing.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/190510-so-who-has-highest-mileage-tdv6-2.html

Baz.


Not at all, Baz. Now show me the receipts for servicing & maintenance, & we'll compare costs. My vehicle is 14 years old. I'm guessing the oldest D3 would be 10? Don't get me wrong, it would be nice to have a new D4, but I prefer my D2. Now, a Defender 130, with a TDV6? If only..... Bob

[gusthedog]

Now, a Defender 130, with a TDV6? If only..... Bob

If only you didn't have elbows? Or if only you wanted a car that leaks? :wasntme: What about a Disco with a TVD6? Oh wait, they have one of those already :D

[Gerokent]

Thats exactly it. Old cars were unreliable and needed to be fixed all of the time. The modern motor vehicle is more complex and infinitely more reliable. As a kid there were always broken down cars on the side of the road, especially on a hot day. Not now. Apart from dunking a car and stopping in the water, you're not likely to break down, and if it does, it will probably be something mechanical anyway which by many peoples definition means that any mechanic in the outback can fix it anyway. Even reading on here, the vast majority of breakdowns don't seem to be electronics related. Its still just a motor, gearbox and diffs under those plastic covers, they're not that much different still.

Now that's a crock. But even if they broke, a non mechanic had a chance of fixing it on the side of the road.

[TerryO]

If its a early TDV6 you want to put in a Fender then you would have a rattly old leaky bucket with a high maintenance engine.

The petrol V8 is the go Bob, smooth as silk, plenty of horsepower and quite as a mouse. Weighs less to I believe and who cares about a few extra dollars in fuel when the maintenance bill is a fraction of the diesel.

Plus if your buying a late model Fender to put the TDV6 in then you will need stronger diffs and axles at the very least, just like the D3/4 already comes standard with.

But I guess that is a whole different argument for another day. ...;)

[gusthedog]

Now that's a crock. But even if they broke, a non mechanic had a chance of fixing it on the side of the road.

Waiting for response.... Now where is that popcorn?:)

[Chucaro]

And only started with a link in the net......
Do not blame Chucaro for this, I only opened the can........:D

[jonesy63]

Now that's a crock. But even if they broke, a non mechanic had a chance of fixing it on the side of the road.

You mean - like the "mechanic" (tyre swapper) on the Gibb River Road - from the original TV post in this thread? :wasntme::angel:

[rocmic]

More Still, it's less distressing I guess, to get home and see a dent or two and a bunch of extra bush pinstriping on an older car than it would be on a $50k plus car.
Bloke I know leased a Prado some years ago and hated taking it anywhere it might get pinstriped, worried about what the leasing company would say when he gave it back and resale value.
Must admit I checked the lease on the D3 carefully, thought about it for five minutes and decided - fair wear and tear, this IS a 4WD.
And in the end I kept it at end of lease anyway.
Cheers
Mike

[Slunnie]

Waiting for response.... Now where is that popcorn?:)
lol, no response needed... a non-mechanic type fixes nothing.

[rangietragic]

Not 4wd related but same vane as thread.Years ago mate hired jap buzz box to go to a wedding.It played up the whole way.Mates uncle was a bit of an old bush mechanic,fixed machinery all his life.Offered to have a look,opened the bonnet"HOLY ****".Closed bonnet and walked away:D

[bob10]

If only you didn't have elbows? Or if only you wanted a car that leaks? :wasntme: What about a Disco with a TVD6? Oh wait, they have one of those already :D


My D2 leaks, sometimes. Around the top of the windscreen, when the body flex's & the windscreen doesn't. That's why they invented silastic. Bob
:angel:

[POD]

My observation has been that modern vehicles are extremely reliable until they are modified. It seems to be the after-market accessories that cause the majority of failures, this was borne out on our outback trip this year. Did 13,000km including some of what seems to be the most remote country in Oz- munja track being probably the highlight- solo in our Puma 130:o. Had 2 problems: 1; the hook bolt holding down the aux battery broke on the Munja track, had to weld it when we got back to mt elizabeth. 2; a wire on the turbo actuator broke, this caused the vehicle to go into 'limp' mode 4 times on our last day home, each time was reset by switching off & back on, fixed it when we got home. (I did have a problem with some rough running at the start of our trip, most likely a dodgy batch of fuel, sorted itself out by the time we got to Alice Springs). Numerous times we stopped to help others with breakdowns, usually resulting from failure of aftermarket accessories.
Poor preparation is also a major factor; case in point, the carload of Canadian backpackers 100km into the Gibb with 2 flat tyres, one spare, and every tyre on the vehicle worn down below the tread wear indicators. Then there was the bloke in the brand new Prado, also on the Gibb, consulting the owners manual for instructions on changing a flat tyre. I got some very strange looks when greasing unis, cleaning/changing filters, rotating tyres and checking oils in a campground; people assumed we were having mechanical trouble- why else would you open the bonnet? Russell Coight got it spot on-'These people come out here and the have NO IDEA!".

[Eevo]

. I got some very strange looks when greasing unis, cleaning/changing filters, rotating tyres and checking oils in a campground; people assumed we were having mechanical trouble- why else would you open the bonnet? Russell Coight got it spot on-'These people come out here and the have NO IDEA!".

half of me disagrees.

are cars so unreliable we need to do these checks?
service intervals are usually in the periods of months, not days.


the other half of me agrees. things break, catch it early/preventative maint goes a long way,

[PAT303]

I do the same checks and never break down in the bush,it's being smart. Pat

[Tombie]

And I heard that Tombie is fantastic at getting out and pushing cars....

From getting stuck maybe.. Never from broken down...

And the only fault free vehicle on the desert jaunt - the Disco.. Most modern vehicle there...

[Chops]

half of me disagrees.

are cars so unreliable we need to do these checks?
service intervals are usually in the periods of months, not days.


the other half of me agrees. things break, catch it early/preventative maint goes a long way,

You've answered your own question.
Its common sense really, which probably a lot of "new" 4x4 drivers dont understand.
Remember though, that when in outback type areas, the rough running you'll do in a day on a track is probably about the equivilent of a years running on city streets.
And being out in the middle of no where, you need to check bolts etc that can undo themselves just from a corrigated road. As you said, an early fix is better.
It does'nt make any difference if its a brand new vehicle, or a 50 year old car.

[Eevo]

Remember though, that when in outback type areas, the rough running you'll do in a day on a track is probably about the equivilent of a years running on city streets.

i 100% agree.

but if a new 4wd cant do outback between service intervals, its a lemon imho.

[Graeme]

but if a new 4wd cant do outback between service intervals, its a lemon imho.Do you not drive in dusty or rough conditions?

[Eevo]

Do you not drive in dusty or rough conditions?

no, never. who would do that? :angel:

[PAT303]

i 100% agree.

but if a new 4wd cant do outback between service intervals, its a lemon imho.

And with that statement it proves beyond doubt you have no idea what your talking about,it's about checking for possible problems before they become an issue while travelling in remote Australia.It's no supprise the people who do the most complaining when they strike trouble are usually the people who couldn't be bothered doing simple checks each morning. Pat

[PAT303]

You've answered your own question.
Its common sense really, which probably a lot of "new" 4x4 drivers dont understand.
Remember though, that when in outback type areas, the rough running you'll do in a day on a track is probably about the equivilent of a years running on city streets.
And being out in the middle of no where, you need to check bolts etc that can undo themselves just from a corrigated road. As you said, an early fix is better.
It does'nt make any difference if its a brand new vehicle, or a 50 year old car.

Stop start city driving is much harder on vehicles than open road driving,NSW rural tar roads are in general rougher than most outback WA dirt roads. Pat

[Eevo]

And with that statement it proves beyond doubt you have no idea what your talking about,it's about checking for possible problems before they become an issue while travelling in remote Australia.It's no supprise the people who do the most complaining when they strike trouble are usually the people who couldn't be bothered doing simple checks each morning. Pat



no idea at all.

i pray to the 4wd gods everytime i go outback.

[Eevo]

Stop start city driving is much harder on vehicles than open road driving,NSW rural tar roads are in general rougher than most outback WA dirt roads. Pat



Stop start city driving: harder on engine, cooling system, oil.

outback driving: harder on suspension and everything held down with a bolt.

[carjunkieanon]

:p

You're all wrong. Taking any car into the outback is fraught with problems. That's why I WALK.

Yep, WALK. No electronic issues, no dirty fuel issues, no broken springs/struts, no need to carry any spare parts or diagnostic tools. Walking is the only reliable way to go.

:p

[Bytemrk]

:p

You're all wrong. Taking any car into the outback is fraught with problems. That's why I WALK.

Yep, WALK. No electronic issues, no dirty fuel issues, no broken springs/struts, no need to carry any spare parts or diagnostic tools. Walking is the only reliable way to go.

:p

Sssshhh..everyone...don't tell him about blisters :angel:

[Bytemrk]

i 100% agree.

but if a new 4wd cant do outback between service intervals, its a lemon imho.

But it's far more than simple service intervals.... I have no doubt the D4 will cope fine outback between service intervals....but I will still do a daily inspection when away.

A stray rock hitting something that matters underneath.

An air clearer full of crap after 1000km's of Bulldust can all make a mess of your trip, but sit well outside normal service to me...

[TerryO]

Or worse still than blisters a blown out thong! ... :eek:

Seriously I reckon old style leather walking boots with hob nails are far more reliable than these new style modern lightweight orthopaedic custom breathable multi coloured sissy boots. ... :angel: ;)

[Ancient Mariner]

Agree at last same as LandRovers:D

[carjunkieanon]

I think there's only one way to settle this debate.

All the East Coast AULRO's meet in Sydney and drive through the desert to Perth. All the West coasters do the reverse. We have a MASSIVE BBQ in the middle.

At the end, tally up the damage.

[Didge]

That's a great idea carjunkieanon - gives me an excuse to get away for a week or so :)

[Chucaro]

I think there's only one way to settle this debate.

All the East Coast AULRO's meet in Sydney and drive through the desert to Perth. All the West coasters do the reverse. We have a MASSIVE BBQ in the middle.

At the end, tally up the damage.

It would be good to have 5 County Isuzu and 5 Pumas in each team.

[Didge]

Ooh, that rules me and my 300tdi out :(

[POD]

I'm in.

[Chops]

If the timings right,, I'll be in it :D
Seeing as I don't have ABS/TC in my Puma, would that class me as old or new school :confused:
But is there a reason you don't want D3's/4's and Rangies there? One of the drivers might need a bit of a rest,, I could fill in for them :D

[TerryO]

Your correct Chops why wouldn't they want some late model Disco's to come along?

Personally I reckon they should because at least then they would have some reliable and powerful enough tow vehicles there to skull drag all the old and new broken down Fenders out of the desert. ... ;)

[carjunkieanon]

I'll almost certainly need someone to tow my D2a - damned three amigos.

[Chucaro]

If the timings right,, I'll be in it :D
Seeing as I don't have ABS/TC in my Puma, would that class me as old or new school :confused:
But is there a reason you don't want D3's/4's and Rangies there? One of the drivers might need a bit of a rest,, I could fill in for them :D

Chops, all are welcome, my suggestions was to put an end to the debate which is the more capable 110 in the bush :)

[Chops]

Your correct Chops why wouldn't they want some late model Disco's to come along?

Personally I reckon they should because at least then they would have some reliable and powerful enough tow vehicles there to skull drag all the old and new broken down Fenders out of the desert. ... ;)

Careful you,,,,,, you won't need to be "skull dragging" me anywhere :p





Famous last words :eek:

[Chops]

Hehehe,,

I almost forgot Terry, you guys will need us along to help with the power source to run all your coffee machines and hair dryers :angel:

[TerryO]

Geeze Chops, now did you know that I have a hair dryer? ... ;)

Didn't you know its mandatory for all D3/4 owners.

[PAT303]

I think there's only one way to settle this debate.

All the East Coast AULRO's meet in Sydney and drive through the desert to Perth. All the West coasters do the reverse. We have a MASSIVE BBQ in the middle.

At the end, tally up the damage.

And breakfast on the bight. Pat

[PAT303]

Hehehe,,

I almost forgot Terry, you guys will need us along to help with the power source to run all your coffee machines and hair dryers :angel:

Yes,us snags with our electric LR's can't survive without our luxuries,can I have a soy late' with a twist of lemon?. Pat

[vnx205]

I think that the suggested trip to settle the argument shows the typical discriminatory focus on large centres of population and wealth producing industries.

Notice that the suggestion only referred to the East Coasters and West Coasters. Once again the neglected South and North have been left out.

Surely to be all-inclusive and non-discrimatory, groups would have to start at all four cardinal points of the compass and the barbecue in the middle should be at the Lambert Centre at the exact geographical centre of Australia.

I have already done that trip through the Lambert Centre (without the barbecue), but I showed an even greater awareness of the need to include minority groups and neglected regions. I was prepared to think outside the square and did not limit my thinking to the four cardinal compass points.

I started at about the South Eastern corner at Point Hicks and traveled to the North Western corner at Broome via the Oodnadatta Track, the lambert centre, the Tanami Track, and the Gibb River Road.

:D

For the record, I did the trip in a Series III and the only thing that broke was the spring that operates the latch on the passenger's side door. :D:D

[TerryO]

For the record, I did the trip in a Series III and the only thing that broke was the spring that operates the latch on the passenger's side door. :D:D

Allan that's just further proof that all these new fangled technologies like door handles that work are unreliable in the outback.

By the way if there is going to be a BBQ out there then I guess you lot will want us lot to bring our Latte makers for after dinner coffee?

[vnx205]

Allan that's just further proof that all these new fangled technologies like door handles that work are unreliable in the outback.
You're right! Now if I had a Series I, with those door hinges that allowed you to just lift the doors off, I could have removed them before I left home and the problem would not have occurred. No doors would have been even better than no door handles. That way I could also have avoided the minor irritation of the glass windows sliding forward on corrugated roads.
By the way if there is going to be a BBQ out there then I guess you lot will want us lot to bring our Latte makers for after dinner coffee?

That depends on whether you plan to make them with skim milk, lite or soy.

[PAT303]

Soy,dairy milk goes straight to my arse. Pat

[vnx205]

I wonder if we are missing an important point here.

Maybe instead of asking whether modern 4WDs are too high tech for the outback, we should be asking if they are an appropriate vehicle to maximise the experience of travelling in the outback.

As I told colleagues when I returned from the aforementioned diagonal crossing of Australia in my 1973 LWB 4cyl petrol Series III, if you did the trip in a more modern vehicle, you would miss out on a lot.

In a better sealed vehicle, you would miss the smells of the variety of flora and would not get to enjoy the dust that is an integral part of so much of the centre of Australia.

With air conditioning, you would have no idea of the way the time of year and the time of day produces such a huge variation in temperatures in Central Australia.

With better suspension, you would not get a full appreciation of the difference between sealed suburban streets and the rocks, corrugations, sand and washaways that characterise so many outback roads.

In a faster vehicle you would not have a realistic idea of the vast distances between centres of civilisation that are so much a part of the outback experience.

Furthermore in a quieter vehicle you would have the added pressure of feeling under some obligation to carry on scintillating conversation with your passenger/s instead of being able to concentrate on your surroundings.

It is entirely possible that an all-singing, all-dancing, bells and whistles modern 4WD could complete the trip, but you would miss out on a lot. You might as well stay at home.
:p

[TerryO]

Geeze Allan your good at stirring the pot. ... ;)

I'll make sure next time I'm driving somewhere to wind down the window so I can appreciate the dust and the many various smells so I'm more in touch with the real Australian bush ... :angel:

[workingonit]

You just need one of those 'smells of the bush' things hanging from the rear view...with the fluffy dice.

[bob10]

When driving up the hills, near Kilcoy, we have the windows down, so we can hear the bellbirds. And smell the trees. Wouldn't do it on a dusty road, though. Haven't seen any D3's or D4's with the windows down. Or modern defenders, for that matter. How can their dogs stick their nose out into that delicious air , poor things. Bob

[TerryO]

Bob it's really quite simple us Disco owners don't let our dogs hang their heads out of the windows for a very simple reason.

Didn't you know that if you let either a Poodle or Chihuahua hang their heads out of a moving cars windows they tend to fall out?

Why? ... Cause we can't hold onto them and a hot Latte at the same time and drive. ... ;)

[bob10]

Bob it's really quite simple us Disco owners don't let our dogs hang their heads out of the windows for a very simple reason.

Didn't you know that if you let either a Poodle or Chihuahua hang their heads out of a moving cars windows they tend to fall out?

Why? ... Cause we can't hold onto them and a hot Latte at the same time and drive. ... ;)


Classic! good one, Bob :D

[PAT303]

Bob it's really quite simple us Disco owners don't let our dogs hang their heads out of the windows for a very simple reason.

Didn't you know that if you let either a Poodle or Chihuahua hang their heads out of a moving cars windows they tend to fall out?

Why? ... Cause we can't hold onto them and a hot Latte at the same time and drive. ... ;)

And talk to our hair dressers on the mobile :eek:. Pat

[Chops]

A certain Mod on here with a Rangie enlightened us to the fact that hairdryers are carried ;) (mind you, now I have an ECU, I'm thinking its a rather good idea:angel:)
He does good coffee too :D

And who in they're right mind would have a "Soy" latte`? :eek:

Mind you, even in the Puma, we have Apple pie, custard and cream for desert :D

[rick130]

Soy,dairy milk goes straight to my arse. Pat
Waaaay too much information ! :eek:

[Eevo]

12V 13Amp Hair Dryer | Caravan 12v Accessories | CaravansPlus (http://caravansplus.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1888)

12V 13Amp Hair Dryer.


Portable 12 Volt Coffee Maker (http://www.australiandirect.com.au/buy/power-hunt-12v-personal-coffee-maker-kit/PNP-301SK)


Power Hunt 12V Personal Coffee Maker Kit




problem solved

[4x4 MORE]

I wonder if we are missing an important point here.

Maybe instead of asking whether modern 4WDs are too high tech for the outback, we should be asking if they are an appropriate vehicle to maximise the experience of travelling in the outback.

As I told colleagues when I returned from the aforementioned diagonal crossing of Australia in my 1973 LWB 4cyl petrol Series III, if you did the trip in a more modern vehicle, you would miss out on a lot.

In a better sealed vehicle, you would miss the smells of the variety of flora and would not get to enjoy the dust that is an integral part of so much of the centre of Australia.

With air conditioning, you would have no idea of the way the time of year and the time of day produces such a huge variation in temperatures in Central Australia.

With better suspension, you would not get a full appreciation of the difference between sealed suburban streets and the rocks, corrugations, sand and washaways that characterise so many outback roads.

In a faster vehicle you would not have a realistic idea of the vast distances between centres of civilisation that are so much a part of the outback experience.

Furthermore in a quieter vehicle you would have the added pressure of feeling under some obligation to carry on scintillating conversation with your passenger/s instead of being able to concentrate on your surroundings.

It is entirely possible that an all-singing, all-dancing, bells and whistles modern 4WD could complete the trip, but you would miss out on a lot. You might as well stay at home.
:p

Wow! very well said!:)

[Redback]

I wonder if we are missing an important point here.

Maybe instead of asking whether modern 4WDs are too high tech for the outback, we should be asking if they are an appropriate vehicle to maximise the experience of travelling in the outback.

As I told colleagues when I returned from the aforementioned diagonal crossing of Australia in my 1973 LWB 4cyl petrol Series III, if you did the trip in a more modern vehicle, you would miss out on a lot.

In a better sealed vehicle, you would miss the smells of the variety of flora and would not get to enjoy the dust that is an integral part of so much of the centre of Australia.

With air conditioning, you would have no idea of the way the time of year and the time of day produces such a huge variation in temperatures in Central Australia.

With better suspension, you would not get a full appreciation of the difference between sealed suburban streets and the rocks, corrugations, sand and washaways that characterise so many outback roads.

In a faster vehicle you would not have a realistic idea of the vast distances between centres of civilisation that are so much a part of the outback experience.

Furthermore in a quieter vehicle you would have the added pressure of feeling under some obligation to carry on scintillating conversation with your passenger/s instead of being able to concentrate on your surroundings.

It is entirely possible that an all-singing, all-dancing, bells and whistles modern 4WD could complete the trip, but you would miss out on a lot. You might as well stay at home.
:p


Hahahaha, sarcasm at it's best:clap2::TakeABow:

And almost true;)

Baz.

[mikehzz]

Just to get this clear...I can further maximise my outback experience in a modern car by driving everywhere in low range, with all the windows down and the tyres pumped up to 60psi? There has to be something I can do to the seat to make my experience more authentic? Even with all the above, my arse would still be in a cocoon of comfort...

[vnx205]

That would be a step in the right direction, but you will still be faced with the problem that the sound of the kids squabbling and asking, "Are we there yet?" will not be drowned out by the combined sound of the engine, the whine of the gears and the rattles that serve to enhance the sensation of travelling on real outback tracks. :)

[gusthedog]

Ah, so those of us with comfortable cars can't have an authentic bush experience. Of course. I mean who would want to ride in comfort with a minimum of noise, with the climate control on stopping occasionally to retrieve cold refreshing drinks from a fridge? Then stopping at the end of a day not covered in dust, refreshed and ready for a great chinwag around the fire? Oh wait, that'd be me :D

So you can keep your dusty, sweaty, noisy, uncomfortable, tiring, warm beer enhanced 'original' experience and I'll have my 'fake' one every time. ;)

[TonyC]

That would be a step in the right direction, but you will still be faced with the problem that the sound of the kids squabbling and asking, "Are we there yet?" will not be drowned out by the combined sound of the engine, the whine of the gears and the rattles that serve to enhance the sensation of travelling on real outback tracks. :)

Surely with a 58 speaker 2,500 watt Dolby surround sound Harmon Kardon stereo it would only be a matter of the right CD :p

Tony

[TerryO]

Allan your onto something here plus you could make some bucks out of this. ... ;)

Next time your doing a outback trip why not make a recording of the various mechanical droning and suspension banging noises that you are so lucky to experience in your Defender cab and then put them on a disc or memory stick and sell the sound track as the real outback experience to us disadvantaged Disco owners.
Then all Disco owners when out and about on our own big adventures driving down rough city streets can play your sound track on our Harmon Kardon surround sound stereo's and be lucky enough to then experience the real outback. ... :angel:


Bugger I was to slow to put this post up! ... TonyC beat me to it.

[PAT303]

I can imagine the tape,there would be the sound of an engine screaming it's tit's off combined with the transfer gears howling,next thing you'd hear a voice yelling ''get that slow POS out of the way'' followed by tyre screach,then the sound of a dieing engine and silence,then a bonnet opening,then ''stupid Land Rover &*^% POS *&^%$.It'll go for about 5 mins,don't know how well it'll sell. Pat

[Chops]

Allan your onto something here plus you could make some bucks out of this. ... ;)

Next time your doing a outback trip why not make a recording of the various mechanical droning and suspension banging noises that you are so lucky to experience in your Defender cab and then put them on a disc or memory stick and sell the sound track as the real outback experience to us disadvantaged Disco owners.
Then all Disco owners when out and about on our own big adventures driving down rough city streets can play your sound track on our Harmon Kardon surround sound stereo's and experience the real outback. ... :angel:


Bugger I was to slow to put this post up! ... TonyC beat me to it.

Wanna be a bit careful there Terry,,, people will think your driving a series or something,, you know, not being able to keep up an all. :wasntme:

[Chops]

I can imagine the tape,there would be the sound of an engine screaming it's tit's off combined with the transfer gears howling,next thing you'd hear a voice yelling ''get that slow POS out of the way'' followed by tyre screach,then the sound of a dieing engine and silence,then a bonnet opening,then ''stupid Land Rover &*^% POS *&^%$.It'll go for about 5 mins,don't know how well it'll sell. Pat

Haha,, is that from a past experience Pat?

I've been there, done that :D

[PAT303]

Two 2a's,two 3's,love the things to death but 2 days of corrigations on the Tallawana,three on the Anne Beadell,a week on the CSR in coil spring LR's was hard enough for me. Pat

[2stroke]

So just out of curiosity what's the touring range of one of these "comfy cocoons" on dirt and sand as found on the CSR? Can you carry a second spare? Extra fuel and water? Camp oven, that extra bit of firewood you need for the roast? A decent size fridge freezer to keep it in, Then there's the extra battery to run it on the days off when you aren't driving it. And what's the GVM and payload, and are the new fangled tyres rated for all this? Just askin...

[101RRS]

What you can carry is based on the design of the body and chassis not whether is is a new or old vehicle and whether it is fitted electronics or not.

A D4 will most likely carry a similar amount of gear as a series 3 station wagon and do it in comfort.

[2stroke]

What you can carry is based on the design of the body and chassis not whether is is a new or old vehicle and whether it is fitted electronics or not.

A D4 will most likely carry a similar amount of gear as a series 3 station wagon and do it in comfort.

Comfort is also based on the design of the body and chassis though.

[4x4 MORE]

I can imagine the tape,there would be the sound of an engine screaming it's tit's off combined with the transfer gears howling,next thing you'd hear a voice yelling ''get that slow POS out of the way'' followed by tyre screach,then the sound of a dieing engine and silence,then a bonnet opening,then ''stupid Land Rover &*^% POS *&^%$.It'll go for about 5 mins,don't know how well it'll sell. Pat

:D:D:D

[Chucaro]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/628.jpg

[Eevo]

turning on the climate control should mean winding down the windows

[Gerokent]

Yep, nothing wrong with the 240 air con; 2 windows down, 40 miles per hour :D