Bundalenes '51 Restoration

[Bundalene]

Well, we have "joined" the Series restoration club. There are no doubt many projects in various stages of completion and many others waiting for a start in all corners of Australia. Ours will be a slow and careful restoration.

About 2 months ago, we purchased two Series 1’s.... a '51 (no running gear) and an incomplete 1.6 engine. The second was a '53 (almost complete) with a Holden engine, but missing brake components. Both vehicles are 80 inch. The plan is to restore them both, overhaul all mechanical parts back to good working order (not necessarily new), replace bushes, seals,… but keep the appearance in their ‘USED’ state.

We will start with the '51 model first.



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/1444.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pb2KTmsZj)



Our first priority was to get the vehicles under cover and make the '51 mobile (so I plonked it onto a D2 rolling chassis because I had a spare one) as it came without running gear. Then to set up a working space, shelving, storage area, molasses tank, tools, …… Also on a steep learning curve here. I will be asking heaps of questions, but not without prior research:)



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/1403.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/hj3JQKhej) The 51 model on a D2 chassis

Both the Land Rovers had been sitting under a tree for many years, the spare tyre recess was completely filled with composted leaf litter as was the tub. Having said that, it is amazing how well the car is preserved, The firewall is rust free as far as I can see, and I have yet to find any rust holes in the chassis.

Our first purchase was a spare parts manual and James Taylor’s guide



Erich

[123rover50]

Looks like a couple of good projects there :)
Pleased to meet you both at the Expo, helps to put faces to names.

Keith

[Bundalene]

Keith, it was nice to meet you and your wife as well.

This restoration will be the biggest rebuild we have done so far. Anyhow, we are not in a hurry. A very new learning curve for me, but something I hope will give me great satisfaction in the long run.

Cheers Erich

[ROMAROVER]

Keith, it was nice to meet you and your wife as well.

This restoration will be the biggest rebuild we have done so far. Anyhow, we are not in a hurry. A very new learning curve for me, but something I hope will give me great satisfaction in the long run.

Cheers Erich
T:Dwo great minds at work here ;)

[Slunnie]

Hmmm, I like your thinking here Erich!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/1403.jpg

[Yorkie]

Have to agree, d2 running gear (with CDL) and S1 body. Classic but modern. :)

[Larry]

Have to agree, d2 running gear (with CDL) and S1 body. Classic but modern. :)

I think it may need some flares on those guards though.:p

[Bundalene]

We have spent many hours stripping the 51 Series1 with little to show. I have been spraying WD40 on every visible bolt for the past few weeks, not sure if it has helped that much. We are trying to remove and save every original bolt possible and not damage anything in the process and avoid drilling and tapping too many holes down the track. This is an extremely slow process, yesterday it took me 2 hours to remove the last screw on the instrument panel, but what satisfaction when it finally undid


We lifted the drivers floor anxiously but were pleased to find all brake components appear in original condition and hopefully restorable. Interesting to figure out how it all works, including the likes of the brake pressure switch for the brake light.




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/1404.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/iqsC2lo7j)





The shifter was completely seized but with coaxing for some time it came good. The seat box was a pain to remove as it had been installed with 13 non original and completely rusty gutter screws holding it to the rear tub. These took hours to grinding away the heads of the screws as not to damage the seat box or rear tub





https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/1405.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p5rPFBjKj) Gutter screws. 13 of these took about 4 hours to remove as not to damage the seat box / hinges nor rear tub.







https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/1406.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f03mG67oj)





https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/1407.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyzJkUy7j) All labeled to be re-installed at a later date








Erich

[Bundalene]

Hmmm, I like your thinking here Erich!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/1403.jpg

I thought you would get a kick out of that - and mounted back to front at that.:o:o Still with the ACE controller visible on the chassis rails.






Erich

[chazza]

Nice find Erich!

You are probably doing this already but I have found the following very useful to help put it all back together;
1. Takes heaps of photos - close-ups and distance.

2. Create a Word document with interesting points, under sub-headings, such as paint colour; numbers; businesses that can supply parts; people; etc.

3.Collect plastic screw-top containers such as pill-boxes; fruit jars; etc. Label the lid with a felt-pen and keep as many of the parts from a sub-assembly in it, ready for reassembly, or restoration. they can be re-used for the next time and if they fall over, the parts don't get lost.

4. Use a molasses bath to de-rust things gently and completely. For the first two years when I had no money, my S1 always had something de-rusting; being painted; or being stowed away for the big day when it could be put back on.

Have fun - so far your approach has been very sensible and thorough! :D

Cheers Charlie

[Bundalene]

Nice find Erich!

You are probably doing this already but I have found the following very useful to help put it all back together;
1. Takes heaps of photos - close-ups and distance.

2. Create a Word document with interesting points, under sub-headings, such as paint colour; numbers; businesses that can supply parts; people; etc.

3.Collect plastic screw-top containers such as pill-boxes; fruit jars; etc. Label the lid with a felt-pen and keep as many of the parts from a sub-assembly in it, ready for reassembly, or restoration. they can be re-used for the next time and if they fall over, the parts don't get lost.

4. Use a molasses bath to de-rust things gently and completely. For the first two years when I had no money, my S1 always had something de-rusting; being painted; or being stowed away for the big day when it could be put back on.

Have fun - so far your approach has been very sensible and thorough! :D

Cheers Charlie


Thanks for the advice Charlie,

The jars sounds like a good idea which I will adopt, I have been using labeled plastic bags, which is a bit cumbersome.

The word file is also a good idea, I have been bookmarking supplier links, but this is also a bit cumbersome. We are doing a huge amount of research and most of that is in my head. Also we have a folder going - a bit 'old fashion' but remembering which parts are available where? and for what price / condition? I see quite a few parts are being re-manufactured, probably not always ideal but OK as a stop gap. I don't usually rush into buying parts, except the likes of bushes, bearings, .....

Might create an Excel sheet

As for the photos, I probably take too many and the molasses bath is also set up




Erich

[Bundalene]

The molasses bath is in use, I had a large container with lid (1.2m x .6m x .5m high) which seems to suit the job. Currently we are soaking steering parts, nuts and bolts and an axle housing. I have never used this process before and am looking forward to seeing the results in a few days / weeks – NO RUSH





https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/1382.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/idvJHKuij) As recommended I used a 10 to 1 water to molasses mixture with a 20 litre drum of molasses in here






https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/1383.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipXEakvzj)






Not everything is going to plan – the radiator / headlight support was badly cracked at the 3 bolts onto the chassis, I broke the junction box – even though there is a brass insert at the inside, the whole insert came away with the lid, and I broke the first bolt I tried to undo on the relay box, it was almost rusted through.



Erich

[gazk]

Erich, when you eventually remove the parts (it can be a very slow process) from the molasses and wash them off treat them straight away with a phosphoric acid solution then undercoat otherwise they start to rust again quite quickly.

[klonk]

Hi Erich,

Thats a good project you have there, Will provide hours of amusement ;).

Im removing rust from klonks wheel rims atm and had to change the mollassis yesterday as it does go off after a month and smells pretty rank. Remember this land rover work requires planning on all fronts. If you have to put your arms into the soup to retrieve parts dont expect to get too close to your wife for three days.

Cheers Steve

[Bundalene]

What do you do with the molasses solution when finished - probably OK to water the garden - right away from the house? No chemicals, just rusty sugar water.

This link says water your lawn.

Untitled Document (http://www.homercidal.com/molasses/)




What do others do?



Erich

[roverrescue]

Eric,
you could always ferment/distil it and then call it:

"el ron de series one"

Far better than lawn food ;)

[chazza]

What do you do with the molasses solution when finished - probably OK to water the garden - right away from the house? No chemicals, just rusty sugar water.

What do others do?

Erich

I just tip it on the ground, it doesn't seem to hurt anything.

Elbow length gloves are a good idea to keep the pong off and a lid to keep mould spores out, is an even better one - mould seems to create the peculiar essence.

Molasses seems to to come in different strengths, which affects de-rusting time; my latest batch was mixed 1:10 but seemed to be working too slowly, so I increased the strength to 1:5 and by the next morning some seriously good activity was taking place. If you are not getting some froth on the surface in the shape of the parts, increase the strength or the temperature of the water,

Cheers Charlie

[gazk]

Hi Erich,

Thats a good project you have there, Will provide hours of amusement ;).

Im removing rust from klonks wheel rims atm and had to change the mollassis yesterday as it does go off after a month and smells pretty rank. Remember this land rover work requires planning on all fronts. If you have to put your arms into the soup to retrieve parts dont expect to get too close to your wife for three days.

Cheers Steve

Where possible I suspend the parts on pieces of wire.
Easy to fish parts out to check on progress that way and you get better stripping coverage than if parts are laying on top of each other.

[Bundalene]

Our good news is that the chassis and firewall have only surface rust. There is a small repair job on the rear cross member as it is bent in. This should pull straight out again (I hope)


I have come to a cross roads on which way to go. Most parts have been removed from the chassis, I have left the firewall deliberately. I had to get to this stage to find the extent of the corrosion before making a decision.

I can either restore back to new or restore back to a mechanically maintained 63 year old vehicle.

For restoration back to new I would either sand blast / prime and paint the chassis and firewall or have it pickled and primed and painted.

For the other restoration I would Dry Ice blast the chassis and firewall and coat the parts with Penetrol (Anti rust control) and cover with a clear coat. I first considered re-painting the chassis and firewall, but where does one stop, it would always look unfinished.


I don't believe there will be a huge cost difference, time difference will , however, be enormous.

I am inclined to go with the second restoration and If I don't like it, I can always get out the spray gun.


Here are pics of the chassis / firewall




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/1301.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f0sZRFzlj)




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/1302.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/exdOd3EBj)




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/1303.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/exLJVGO5j)





https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/1304.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f07tJNMWj)




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/1305.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pbtgSDJij)




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/1306.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipPzIH6nj)




http:
//imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/540/4BNWSh.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f04BNWShj)




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/1307.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyOfeZPEj)




Erich

[Landy Smurf]

Looks great. I would go the 2nd option too.

[Bundalene]

I have been doing a lot of research on the Series 1, isn't the Internet and this Forum a great resource.

I haven't been able to find in which month this vehicle was built, shipped to Australia, assembled and sent to the customer. Not sure if this type of information is available.

The chassis number is 16660970 and was shipped to Grenville Motors





https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/1214.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipVx3f1Ej)



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/1215.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/hlwXbaJPj) I have Googled this address and the name Jeffery appears 4 times in the White Pages in the Goulburn area, Aubyn Vale is halfway between Crookwell and Rugby and the name Kensit has a number of references on the Internet




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/1216.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipM46fV2j)







Erich

[klonk]

Close but not the closest Klonk is 16660816 from Annard and Thomson , Brisbane. Dispatched from the factory on the 27/10/50.

Cheers Steve

[Bundalene]

Here is an extract from a PDF I found from the Series 1 Club -


1951 16660537 JO049* MB02/96. ORIG ENG ON FARM.
1951 16660541 16101808 TG331 MB02/96. EX JOHN AINSLIE BELL.
1951 16660544 1610180 MB02/96.
1951 16660545 MB02/96. BROKEN UP.
1951 16660557 MB02/96. BROKEN UP.
1951 16660580 MB02/96. BROKEN UP.
1951 16660584 MB02/96.
1951 16660587 MB02/96.
1951 16660621 MB02/96. CHASSIS ONLY REMAINING.
1951 16660625 06100960 MB02/96. WRECKED.
1951 16660648 MB02/96.
1951 16660661 MB02/96.
1951 16660686 16100445 MB02/96.
1951 16660727 MB02/96.
1951 16660734 16102229 MB02/96.
1951 16660735 16102947 GPH078* MB02/96.
1951 16660738 BDC292* MB02/96.
1951 16660779 EX SNOWY MOUNTAIN.
1951 16660829 LUE917 SOLD TO DEWARS. L/R DESP RECORRDS.
1951 16660899 MB02/96. BROKEN UP. ? FITTED TO 06108567.
1951 16660902 111709309 MB02/96.
1951 16660966 MB02/96.
1951 16660977 16102941 TH773 MB02/96.
1951 16660985 170610979 DTK051* MB02/96.
1951 16661004 MB02/96. BROKEN UP.
1951 16661033 06110256 MB02/96.
1951 16661050 MB02/96. BROKEN UP.
1951 16661075 MB02/96. WRECKED.
1951 16661118 06113802 BFJ750* MB02/96.
1951 16661130 MB02/96.
1951 16661263 MB02/96. WRECKED.
1951 16661318 MB02/96. BROKEN UP. BULKHEAD ONLY REMAINS.
1951 16661343 MB02/96. ? ON 06113751. BROKEN UP.
1951 16661344 MB02/96. BROKEN UP.
1951 16661371 16102707 MB02/96.
1951 16661402 AYX461 MB02/96.
1951 16661794 16106291 LR051* MB02/96. EX BILL CAMPTON.
1951 16661933 16109565 MB02/96. PTO ON G/BOX.
1951 16662063 MB02/96.
1951 16662070 MB02/96.
1951 16662077 MB02/96. WRECKED.
1951 16662084 MB02/96. BROKEN UP. BULKHEAD ONLY. EX DAVE CLANCY
1951 16662111 16109234 MB02/96. PTO. ENG COULD BE 16100234. EX PETER TREWIN
1951 16662154 MB02/96. BROKEN UP.
1951 16662162 MB02/96. WRECKED.
1951 16662248 16100457 MB02/96. WRECKED.

I am not sure if there is more info attached in other fields, whether this is current, ............?





Erich

[862993]

Hi Bundalene,


Nice looking vehicle well done! I think you have made the right decision to do a sympathetic rebuild keeping the body as is, it looks great.


Luckily the records for Grenville Motors still exist. Your vehicle was part of a batch of 36 Standard CKD (completely knocked down) vehicles. Unfortunately I cannot make out the name of the ship. If you PM me your email I will send you a scanned copy of the page, you may have more luck.


16660790 was originally fitted with engine 1612786 and key number 570 (most likely an FA key). It was sold on 1/3/1951 to a name that I cannot make out.


Hope this helps,


Geoff

[Bundalene]

A mate came over the other day and saw the molasses bath. He mentioned that he had a garden pond stored behind his shed. This is now a second molasses bath doing it's work on a complete firewall. It would be great to do the chassis ;);)



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/697.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p4CMJMWLj)





Presently have removed the rear chassis shackles but the fronts are proving to be a struggle. They are in 2 pieces and the center section is probably full of rust.



Erich

[Dinty]

A mate of mine who owns a little property, dug a pit (rectangular in shape) with a tractor, lined it with several layers of that heavy black plastic, he put the chassis of his Rover P4 car in it to clean it up, worked a treat he said, cheers Dennis
ps the pit was covered by a couple of sheets of iron for obvious reasons and his kids were all grown up n gone,,.

[Bundalene]

What a top idea, we are on acres here and have an excavator. I will give this serious consideration. Now where can I buy molasses by the 200 litre drum? :spudnikdaddyo: :spudnikdaddyo:



Erich

[Landy Smurf]

I was thinking of doing this with my series one chassis. We have bought 200litre drums from rural produce stores local to us.

[chazza]

To save digging a pit.
1. Calculate the size of the container needed, allowing for at least 50mm of liquid above the submerged object.

2. Build a wall out of bricks; blocks; sandbags, or just bare earth on level ground. There is no need to mortar the bricks or blocks, but remember that the pressure of the water will push them over, so consider laying them as headers if necessary. Remove sharp objects such as stones, or cover with about 50mm of clean sand.

3. Line the pit with two layers at least, of builders plastic.

4. Place masonry blocks such as bricks in the base to support the item to be de-rusted and insert the item.

5. Fill with water and the required amount of molasses.

6. Cover with roofing iron and plastic to help reduce evaporation; monitor the water level regularly.

This is the method I used to do the axle casings on my S1 :D

Cheers C

[Bundalene]

Thanks for the suggestion, you beat me to it. We have just the material at home to complete the bath, some 10 x 3 lengths of timber.


We are away for a few days, but will make a start soon.

I have started phoning around regarding the molasses in the Sydney region and $1 per litre is the best I can do at this stage.


Does anyone want to share a bath when I'm done?



Erich

[Lotz-A-Landies]

There's a feed and grain store on Camden Valley Way at Leppington (near the mower bloke and the Forest Lawn cemetry), can't remember the price but I seem to remember they had the best price I'd found in SW Sydney and they sell by 10 litre drums.

[wrinklearthur]

----- Does anyone want to share a bath when I'm done? :Rolling:
Thanks but no thanks.

[Bundalene]

Wow, how time consuming are these Series 1's. I have been trying to spend 2 - 3 hours every day on this project (when we are home) but there is little to show. This can be spent removing a bolt or half removing a spring shackle bush !!

Today we started washing the chassis and cleaning out the rails / degreasing etc, probably another day until this is done.

Also bought a 200l drum of molasses in readiness for pickling the chassis. I rang around and learned that there are 2 wholesalers supplying the local Sydney market. Brandon Molasses at Erskinville $190 for a drum and Castlereagh Stockfeeds for $155 for a drum. Castlereagh is closer and I picked up a drum.


Below is a pic of the bath with the firewall under. From the imprint the solution is working well

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/500.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/hjC89VjKj)







Erich

[123rover50]

You are doing well.
Now remember when this steel comes out of the bath it starts producing surface rust on the bare metal nearly straight away so be prepared to coat it with something as soon as it dries after the water rinse.
Get it in the hot sun to dry and spray Ensis oil or other inhibitor inside the box sections.
Good Luck.

Keith

[Bundalene]

We have had visitors for 3 weeks and haven't been able to carry on with the restoration, other than a regular scrub of parts in the molasses and some collecting. All should be back to normal next week.


We have been extremely fortunate in this area, picking up some rocking horse poo along the way.


A power takeoff with pulley in very good condition

A Series2 / 2a (1962) workshop manual still in the original cover and a 1969 users manual with all leaflets in excellent condition, still in the original cover

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/1178.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p8hX2EYKj)




A horn button / dipper switch in very good condition

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/1179.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyHj94Zjj)





Erich

[wrinklearthur]

Ohhh! I'm bright green with envy.

Or should that be Ascot Bronze Green with envy.
.

[Bundalene]

I have finally organised the chassis molasses bath. There are many ways to prepare a chassis for restoration, but in my case it was important to retain the existing paint, but remove most of the rust – mainly surface, and then prevent any future rusting. The other process I was considering was dry ice blasting and I was told you could wind down the pressure and remove rust but not too much paint. I haven’t used this before and wasn’t going to risk it, besides it would have cost a lot more.


Firstly I dug a pit as we have an excavator on hand and I figured it is the easiest way to hold back 2 tonne of water. I considered the above ground method but in our case this was easiest. Then made a timber frame, lined with carpet , 2 layers of plastic , another layer of carpet on the base and finally added the molasses. The last part will be to cover it for safety sake




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/960.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p1prjC6mj)




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/961.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ex24KYAsj)





https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/962.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p13EJZ1fj)





https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/963.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pdfXAxJHj)





https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/964.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/idiZQGyNj)





Now let it rest for a few weeks




Erich

[Dinty]

I love it, can't wait to tell my mate Neville, who did the same thing with his P4 chassis, cheers Dennis :angel:

[Bundalene]

We took the firewall out of the molasses bath today and low and behold – no more rust, just shiny metal. I washed this down and before my eyes, it turned rusty. I was surprised that some tiny rust holes did appear at the underside of the gutter on the engine bay side, most of these were nor through the metal. This adds character.

A coat of rust remover sorted the surface rust.. We sprayed some rust converter into the cavity of the firewall as well. Next step was a liberal dose of cavity wax into all the voids of the firewall, a whole container.

This was followed by a thorough clean with “Prepsol” grease and wax remover.

Originally I intended to use Penetrol for the finish, but did a few sample items yesterday and wasn’t that happy with the results, probably because I didn’t clean with Penetrol.

I purchased self leveling POR15 product and used this. The downside of this product is it is hell expensive



Before and after rust converter

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/904.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyPGy6G6j)




Whole firewall with rust converter

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/905.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyxpSHsyj)






https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/906.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipv91IXrj)






https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/907.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ip4IXBgSj)





Before the molasses bath (I don't have a pic of the whole firewall

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/908.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pcuH24C9j)




Before painting

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/909.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f0ARV4FMj)



after painting

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/910.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f0DFbMoGj)




I am surprised how little paint remains on the inside of the firewall. This is the type of finish I will end up with.




Erich

[Bundalene]

The chassis molasses bath is a slow process, slower than I expected. It has been 10 days now, but it is working.


I opened the covers again today and was surprised on how cold the water was, thinking that after yesterday's scorcher, it would have been warm. I will take off the covers on the next hot days and see if that helps. I am not going to scrub it at this stage as I don't want to damage the paintwork which still covers 3/4 of the chassis.


After a water top up, it has gone back to rest





https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/496.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/iq7QYTOyj)




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/497.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p4HzYn0ej)





Erich

[Landy Smurf]

I am very interested in doing this process before galvanizing.
I am very keen to see how it comes up once scrubbed down.

[101RRS]

I envy your success with the firewall with molasses.

I have used it a couple of times and it did not work for me so have given up on it.

I have tried various strengths - 10:1 down to 2:1 and other than stinking the place out for a month the rust is always still there.

I have found mechanical removal and then rust converter is the go.

Garry

[chazza]

I have used it a couple of times and it did not work for me so have given up on it.

I have tried various strengths - 10:1 down to 2:1 and other than stinking the place out for a month the rust is always still there.

Garry

How strange! Sometimes molasses is sold in semi-diluted form, which is apparently so it is easier to mix with chaff, but even so it should have worked at 2:1.

By contrast I have never had a failure with molasses in the last 11 years :)

Cheers Charlie

[Lost Landy]

I found that my molasses bath only really worked well in the warmer temps during winter it didn't do much but come spring it worked very well indeed.

[JDNSW]

I found that my molasses bath only really worked well in the warmer temps during winter it didn't do much but come spring it worked very well indeed.

Could be that failure is associated with living in a relatively cool place like Canberra?

[Bundalene]

We have 3 lots of molasses going at present. The first was a sort of trial which has been used to clean all sorts of items, pedals, brake lines, mechanical parts, brake parts..., the second is a larger tub which had the firewall in it which took about 3 weeks and is now loaded with a heap of loose spring leaves which I was given and shackle / bolts and a bunch of spare parts I bought at am auction sale. Both these are working very well, frothing away and leaving an imprint on the surface 2 days after putting in an item.


When I remove items, I wash the parts individually, then dry with a blow dryer, then stabalise with phosphoric acid, then dry clean and coat with Penetrol. In the case of the firewall I used a clear POR15 product, which I will also use on the chassis, I am now rubbing back the firewall with 1000 wet'n'dry and will recoat with a flat clear coat as I don't like the gloss finish but am impressed with the POR15 rust protection - not sure what to use yet as a clear coat, I will experiment.



The ground pit is working the slowest of all and I think this is associated with the temperature. When I opened it up today, there was a full chassis outline on the surface, and there was bubbling but the action wasn't near as rapid as in the other two. I rubbed the rusty surface and a lot of the corrosion came off immediately, but the process is nowhere complete.



Erich

[Rextheute]

I am watching with interest .....great pics and write up !

A product which may be of interest is Ankor Wax , I have used with great success on my cars , they claim it will last 5 years in the Antarctic as a rust/corrosion inhibitor .
I have coated inside , upside and outside of an old valiant as I didn't want to change the patina of the car ....It can be buffed to a high shine if required or left as a satin finish . It's great stuff , I have also used on my old caravan and camper , it resists stone chipping - wouldn't recommend it for the gun barrel hwy tho !

Cheers

[JDNSW]

I am watching with interest .....great pics and write up !

A product which may be of interest is Ankor Wax , I have used with great success on my cars , they claim it will last 5 years in the Antarctic as a rust/corrosion inhibitor .
.....
Cheers

I do not think that lasting five years in the Antarctic is any recommendation - for rust to progress it needs to have mobility of ions on the surface - and once the moisture is frozen the mobility of ions is several orders of magnitude less than it is for liquid water. Temperatures in Antarctica rarely are above freezing anywhere, and even then only for brief periods. In addition, any chemical processes, including rusting, slow as temperature drops.

It seems to me that referring to how well it works in Antarctica is misleading advertising, and, while it does not mean the product is necessarily no good, it certainly suggests that it is.

John

[Don 130]

Their own website (http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=92) suggests 18 months uncovered outside.
Don.

[Bundalene]

The 51 model we are restoring was missing a lot of the running gear - we had front and rear axle housings and front swivels and front diff but no hubs, brake backing plates. tail shafts, ............ and I have been trolling the internet and wreckers for ideas.

Yesterday we decided to go on a 2 day road trip out in the bush, with a few places in mind but doing a lot of 80inch exploration. We did very well having found a number some which are for sale. It seems when ever you ask someone, either they of a friend has one or has had one in the past. Yesterday evening we were having a beer at a pub and the publican told us about 4 in the area 2 of which we now intend to buy, basically to save them. We will have to plan the pick up as both are missing a set of hubs and are in a difficult location to extract,

On the way back home we called in at a scrap metal recycler at Temora (after a tip off) and bought this basically for scrap value




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/272.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/kpM3gSCGj)




This has had the most damage done to any 80 inch I have seen and is missing heaps

The roll bar and bullbar are welded on
The front guards have been cut and rerivited
The bonnet has a patched hole
The rear tow bar bracket has bits welded to it
The roof - not otiginal I think - has had the front edge hacked off
The chassis has been altered for a Holden motor
The drivers door skin is steel????????
no engine/radiator/ dash /
etc
etc


So there is not that much to salvage, but I can get all my missing bits and a few spares for down the track. At the end of the day, the car was going to scrap.


I can see a lot more daylight on the restoration now


Erich

[wrinklearthur]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/272.jpg

Maybe just get it going as is, I would say that 80" is more interesting historically in it's present form what looks to be a bull chaser.
.

[Bundalene]

Taken on board Arthur - possibly someone's future project, I will leave it intact and use the mechanical bits I need at this stage

I wonder how a vehicle destined for the UK home market finished up in Australia?




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/371.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/idQHBya2j)
VIN R06107939





A few mechanical tweeks and a good tune up should get it going:o:o




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/372.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/exHhL6iZj)





Erich

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Taken on board Arthur - possibly someone's future project, I will leave it intact and use the mechanical bits I need at this stage

I wonder how a vehicle destined for the UK home market finished up in Australia?
VIN R06107939
ErichHi Erich

You have your models mixed up.

The 1950 model was a single continuous sequence. (Apart from Welders and Tickfords)

The only difference is that the early ones were prefixed with R for RHD or L for LHD. The L & R were dropped before the end of the year.

Diana

[Bundalene]

I have learn't 2 things this morning - the 50 model numbering sequence and not to trust calVIN entirely, which gave me the following info




"CalVIN, the Land Rover VIN CALculator

06107939

0 Model year: 1950
6 Model: Land Rover, Series I, 80in, petrol
1 Body type: Basic
0 Destination: Right-hand drive (RHD), home market
7939 Serial number"

I figured the 4th digit meant UK and not export.

Also, it probably didn't come out with a hard top?


Erich

[Lotz-A-Landies]

CalVIN is incorrect on a number of aspects but is the best online resource we have.

The Classic Land Rover site from Norway was more accurate in respect to 109/110 forward control suffix numbers but they closed up a couple of years ago.

In regard to the roof, the first mention of a "Metal Top" in the Grenville Motors books is January 1951, prior to that they were listed as STD (soft top) or PTO or Winch (Capstan) sometimes "PTO/winch" meaning both. (see following)

The first mention of a PTO was June 1949 on R861164 and interestingly is that R861132 is noted as 3 seats, so everything before that had only the two outer seats. R861306 is also listed as F/Hood and 3 seats, but I'm unsure if the F/Hood is the truck cab hood. (3 seats is also a notation on later vehicles)

R8666133 (December 1949) is the first mention of spare wheel bracket on bonnet, which means that vehicles before this one all had the spare behind the transom.

R06200076 (April 1950) mentions centre PTO which makes sense for a Welder and indicates that all the "PTO" before probably had the output on the gearbox and on the rear cross member)

The first mention of "winch" was on R06108669 in June 1950, so likely all the 1948s and 1949s we now see with winches were all retrofits. (Remember the mounting plate for the Aeroparts capstans wont fit on the early chassis without modification.)

[Tomo]

According to the parts catalogue that Chassis no of 061 07939 should have lights behind grill and 5 inch headlights. After chassis no 061 11547 was when 7 inch headlights began....

My Series 1 0610 7967 has lights behind grill.......

The vehicle looks to have had a hard life maybe someone in its 65 year history changed to a later radiator support panel.......

[Bundalene]

One more question about the numbers. On the photo above there is a VIN tag at the upper left of the firewall. I saw a similar tag on 2 other 51's recently. Yet the 51 which I am restoring and the other 53 in our workshop don't have this tag and there are no screw holes - never had one in this position. The VIN tags are near the steering wheel on the others and are not stamped but printed on a plate which has faded.




Erich

[russellrovers]

One more question about the numbers. On the photo above there is a VIN tag at the upper left of the firewall. I saw a similar tag on 2 other 51's recently. Yet the 51 which I am restoring and the other 53 in our workshop don't have this tag and there are no screw holes - never had one in this position. The VIN tags are near the steering wheel on the others and are not stamped but printed on a plate which has faded.




Erichhi the tags are correct for the 52 and 53 under the dash but you must also remember that can be cut shut over the years this is why when you find a orignal all matching numbers it will come at premium and are getting harder to find you just have to look at classiic si in uk regards jim

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Erich

The tag in the engine bay is correct for a 1950 model and the early 1951 models.

In the 1951 after about the first 2000 vehicles produced (16660787 in Oz), they changed to the 2WD/4WD transfer box and at the same time, the transfer box instructions next to the steering column changed into a combined instruction and VIN plate.

All matching numbers Chassis/axles/gearbox is a myth or fraud in a Land Rover. It is true of marques like Jaguar, but not in Land Rover.

The reason is that the major assemblies are all stamped as they are made before being fitted to a vehicle, often in a different factory building to the assembly factory.

In the 1951 model for example, there are multiple prefix sequences.
1610 = Home market
1616 = RHD Export market
1666 = RHD CKD
all vehicles in those three sequences will have the 1610 prefix for engine, gearbox and front axle

1613 = LHD export market
1663 = LHD CKD
These two sequences use 1613 prefix for their engine, front axle and gearbox

All five of the above models use the same 1610 prefix for their rear axle.

Diana

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Erich

If you haven't already found it, Mike Bishop's summaries of the 80" parts changes can be found in this post. It may be useful for your research, it has been to me over the years. 80" 1948-1953 model changes (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-i-land-rover-enthusiasts-section/208786-80-1948-1953-model-changes.html#post2255744)

Diana

[OverlandByLR]

Hi Erich
That Hardtop looks to be an original land rover hardtop
and an 80 inch one at that.
They are very hard to come by.
But you are right it has had part of the front edge cut off.:mad:
Hope this little bit of info helps.
All the best
Kc

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I wonder if the leading edge has been cut or merely folded up?

You can bet it is so they can fold the screen down for shooting or bull snaring.

[Bundalene]

There seems to be a lot of interest in this little hardtop. I am not convinced the roof isn't from an 86 or 88 inch. Here are some close ups of the poorly fitting hardtop. I have had 2 people plead with me not to wreck out this car. I am just borrowing the hubs / axles and brake parts for a while




The front has been cut and a wad of foam inserted

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/310.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ip9YYqowj)



Pic from inside

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/318.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyXMooHPj)



There is a strip of wood in the gap between the drivers door and the hardtop, and a piece of weathered rubber on the passengers side


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/319.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/exTI9F1Qj)


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/320.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f04Neuakj)





I have not taken notice of the upper tailgate support mechanism, but this one works a treat

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/321.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyjAH2eJj)







The mounting fixtures look as though they could be correct



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/322.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/kqNuFkQpj)






If original, and I doubt that, just maybe this will be a future project:D:D


I can take more pics if requested

Erich

[JDNSW]

It is definitely a genuine Landrover hardtop, and if it shows no signs of shortening, it is clearly for an 80". Quite uncommon, but not necessarily original. The rear door mechanism is the same as I had on my Series 1 and Series 2.

John

[Bundalene]

Well, this may be a rare find after all. Just reading James Taylors book and he says the 80 inch hard top wasn't introduced until Feb 1950. The build date for this vehicle must be before July 1950, so this would have to be one of the earlier hard tops around.



Erich

[JDNSW]

Well, this may be a rare find after all. Just reading James Taylors book and he says the 80 inch hard top wasn't introduced until Feb 1950. The build date for this vehicle must be before July 1950, so this would have to be one of the earlier hard tops around.



Erich

It may be, but it was made nearly sixty-five years ago, and could have had the hardtop put on at any stage in its history, although it is pretty certain the hardtop was made in the fifties - perhaps a bargain deal on some surplus 80" hardtops after the 86 appeared?

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Erich

The hard tops for the 80" and later Series 1 all overhung the front of the windscreen top rail and yes they had a strip of foam on top of the rail to seal against wind penetration. I always think they look odd because the top is wider than the lower body and you get a visual perspective of the top being like an upside down triangle. (Note that the S2 onwards the top tapers in)

Looking at your top is is definately an 80" type, but cut to allow the screen to fold down. The fact that it has a hole in the roof makes me think it was a shooting buggy where they would shoot out the front through the opening created by the folded down screen.

The profile of the leading edge was the same as the remnants you can see at the corner in your image below

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/310.jpg

You could always recover the leading edge from a later Series 1 truck cab and insert it into your rather rare 80 metal top.

Diana

[Bundalene]

What surprises me is the large gaps at the back of the doors, that's what made me think it wasn't off an 80 inch.

Yes you are right about the shooting buggy - large hole in the roof, hole for the spotlight and half a dozen live shot gun cartridges in the rear compartment ................... :D:D







Erich

[wrinklearthur]

The hole in the roof top is where someone can stand in the back with a light or firearm.
.

[wrinklearthur]

What surprises me is the large gaps at the back of the doors, that's what made me think it wasn't off an 80 inch.
There was a canvas flap fitted down the back edge of each of the doors, which closed that gap.
.

[Larry]

What surprises me is the large gaps at the back of the doors, that's what made me think it wasn't off an 80 inch............


There is the strip of canvas that goes down the back edge of the door top that covers that gap.;)

[russellrovers]

It may be, but it was made nearly sixty-five years ago, and could have had the hardtop put on at any stage in its history, although it is pretty certain the hardtop was made in the fifties - perhaps a bargain deal on some surplus 80" hardtops after the 86 appeared?

Johnhi i have a original hard top here i will get the s1ze and lenght they dont hangover like that

[Bundalene]

I have borrowed 4 hubs and associated parts off the roo shooting buggy to turn our 51 into a rolling chassis when it eventually comes out of the molasses bath.




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/286.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pceybd93j)




The springs are from elsewhere.



Erich

[Bundalene]

While we were on our two day road trip in southern NSW earlier this week, we decided to try and find some information about our 1951 Landy, the chassis of which is in the molasses bath.
The information I have, which is signwritten on the vehicle…is ….D.C. Kensit, Aubyn Vale, Narrawa and C.D. Jeffery, 22 Bradley Street, Goulburn.



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/175.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/exfde344j)





Researching the Kensit family….Percy Cecil Kensit (1888-1957) is buried at Narrawa Church Cemetery so we called in to pay our respects. There are many Kensit family members buried here, and in the grave next to Percy is his wife….Dulcie Catherine Kensit. So..it seems perhaps this Landrover was the property of a Lady??? The Kensit family owned (maybe still own) large acreage in the Narrawa/Crookwell area.



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/269.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pbKwbuiZj)



I little info on Percy Kensit

Obituary - Percy Cecil Kensit - Obituaries Australia (http://oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/kensit-percy-cecil-554)




We had hoped to drive along the Aubyn Vale Road, but we were towing a trailer with the Landrover acquired at Temora at the time, and I wasn’t going to risk it as the track was quite steep.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/270.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p99U9lESj)




We will wander down there again shortly and hopefully talk with some locals …or maybe (hopefully) find a Kensit family member. It would be great to know the history of the car and even better to see some old photographs!

The house at 22 Bradley Street Goulburn still exists, although we did not call in as it was late in the day and we still had a couple of hours to drive home. However, I intend contacting the four Jeffrey families who live in Goulburn …hopefully one may be a relative of C.D. Jeffrey.

Acquiring and restoring an old Landrover is interesting enough, and even though my wife isn’t all that interested in the actual restoration …she is quite interested in learning about the history of the vehicle and those who owned it in the past.…almost like an Ancestry search, or like the show “Who Do You Think You Are”.

[Bundalene]

One step forward and 3 steps back. Sometimes I try to get ahead of myself.


I took the cover off the molasses bath last Thursday and the brew was going off. The water was quite cold. Friday we expected a maximum of 40 degrees hare so I set up a heat exchanger with a roll of Poly pipe we bought for some garden sprinklers. The temperature rose considerably by the evening. However, the stench from the bath was awful and the brew had all but stopped working,




We removed it today as there was little activity in the brew - possibly too cold for too long, or not as good molasses, possibly a bit weaker solution ' who knows.





https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/179.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/iqPqjz6Kj)





I was quite disappointed with the finish, not nearly as good an outcome as the firewall. Maybe my expectations are a bit high.

One thing the bath did reveal is that the chassis needs work - there are 3 rust holes, one in a bad spot near the steering relay box




Up front behind the dumb iron

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/180.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f0YcwKFtj)


Very rear left side

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/181.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/idW8v9rPj)





Erich

[Lotz-A-Landies]

While we were on our two day road trip in southern NSW earlier this week, we decided to try and find some information about our 1951 Landy, the chassis of which is in the molasses bath.
The information I have, which is signwritten on the vehicle is.D.C. Kensit, Aubyn Vale, Narrawa and C.D. Jeffery, 22 Bradley Street, Goulburn.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/175.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/exfde344j)

<3 Images and associated text removed>

The house at 22 Bradley Street Goulburn still exists, although we did not call in as it was late in the day and we still had a couple of hours to drive home. However, I intend contacting the four Jeffrey families who live in Goulburn hopefully one may be a relative of C.D. Jeffrey.

Acquiring and restoring an old Landrover is interesting enough, and even though my wife isnt all that interested in the actual restoration she is quite interested in learning about the history of the vehicle and those who owned it in the past. almost like an Ancestry search, or like the show Who Do You Think You Are.Erich

C D Jeffrey was the Land Rover Dealer in Goulburn. The vehicle must have been a demonstrator or company car or both.

Isn't the address 122 Bradley St?

BTW: If you're going to contact a Jeffrey in Goulburn, I'd start with C.F. Jeffrey, the only one in town with a business phone.

[Redback]

Hey Erich, nice restore mate, on the Kensit family, we have a John Kensit at my work, I can ask if he has relatives from that area or knows of these Kensits, you never know, he may be directly related.

Baz.

[Bundalene]

Thanks Baz, I have not heard of the name before. What we are really after, that is as well as a bit of history, is a pic of the Series 1 in action or even just a photo of it on the farm.




Erich

[Bundalene]

Erich

C D Jeffrey was the Land Rover Dealer in Goulburn. The vehicle must have been a demonstrator or company car or both.

Isn't the address 122 Bradley St?

BTW: If you're going to contact a Jeffrey in Goulburn, I'd start with C.F. Jeffrey, the only one in town with a business phone.

Hi, you are right, it is 122, which is the address we checked out, that is a typo in that post. Thanks heaps for that information



Erich

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Thanks Baz, I have not heard of the name before. What we are really after, that is as well as a bit of history, is a pic of the Series 1 in action or even just a photo of it on the farm.

ErichYou jest! :confused:

Patsy Kensit is an English actress, singer and former child star, her father was an associate of the infamous Kray twins gangsters. They have done an episode of "Who Do You Think You Are?" on Patsy Kensit :p

Patsy Kensit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patsy_Kensit)

[Bundalene]

It's been 6 days since the chassis was removed from the molasses bath. To say I was disappointed with the process is an understatement, If I ever do a similar process, I will double the amount of molasses and increase the temperature right from the start


We were at a crossroads, not sure on how to proceed. Our aim was to clean up the chassis of all rust and not damage the paint. There is not a lot written about this on either the Forum, nor the internet, There are products out there but I suspect they are based on phosphoric acid


We have been scrubbing the chassis with a nylon brush and toothbrush for hard to get spots, dipped in a phosphoric solution. This process was repeated half a dozen times, the rust slowly disappears and the paint remains unaffected. We have spent at least 25 hours this week doing this - a labour of love. This is then painted with two coats POR15 Glisten, which is impervious to moisture. Painting must occur reasonably quickly as the metal blackens if left unpainted

Below are some before and after shots



http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/673/YkBakp.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipYkBakpj)




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/21.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f0q3br2mj)





To date we are about half way through the chassis, not all as good as the shots above



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/22.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyBnXj6bj)




OH how much easier would it have been if I had gone for a full factory finish restore and just sandblasted the lot!




Also had fun had games removing the steering relay unit. The problem was in one of the 2 fixing screws on the top. We have been soaking and flogging this with a hammer all week. I was reluctant to use heat as this would affect the existing paint work. As a last resort I cut the screw and removed the relay box with a hide hammer





https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/23.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/iq8d6FgLj)




Erich

[ROMAROVER]

I can remember an associate of ours(Eddy) often saying that ' with pain and perserverence you could .............. a fly.
I beleive you are gaining a better result.;)

[chazza]

Top work Erich!

A few observations of mine from over the years;
1. Heat is always a catalyst with molasses and is well worth doing if it has to be done quickly.

2. Adding more molasses should not be shied away from if the temperature is in the 20's or higher and nothing much seems to be happening.

3. Penetrol is really superb for penetrating rust and neutralising it by keeping the oxygen out of the reaction. I suspect it could be useful inside your chassis, where the toothbrush can't reach,

Cheers Charlie

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I have seen formula between 10:1 (water:molases) 4:1.
To me 10:1 is a bit like watching trees grow.

The molases bath will not remove paint.

Sand blasting only removes rust on the outside.

A commercial chemical strip removes both paint and rust in the inside and out but is expensive. I had it done on my 6x6 defender and am glad I did as even though it had been sand blasted previously (then re-painted poorly), it didn't reveal rust under the axle bump stop brackets. If I had not done the chemical strip I would never have found the rust and would find significant problems in the future.

In your case Erich, you could always do a paint strip and pressure wash off the paint and them put it back in the molases for a final go. But I would be happy with the peformance of the molases so far in respect of its normal function.

[Bundalene]

In your case Erich, you could always do a paint strip and pressure wash off the paint and them put it back in the molases for a final go. But I would be happy with the peformance of the molases so far in respect of its normal function.

In our build, I don't want to apply any paint at all, just leave the paint which survived 64 years.

The chassis prep is almost complete.



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/608.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f0WGUvQPj)




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/609.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/exg24ckAj)



This has been a real chore. Not quite complete but ever so close.




I am looking forward to the next stage - make a rolling chassis.





Erich

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Erich

I think you are asking for trouble on the chassis and firewall.

I would be fumigating the inside of every element with Penetrol rust prevention and I would seriously consider a coat of satin clear on the outside at least.

[Bundalene]

The process I am going through is first the molasses bath, which I complain about, but it did remove 90% of the rust, then for the outside, I scrubbed the whole chassis with phosphoric acid, dried thoroughly, cleaned with wax & grease remover and repeated this process many times until I was satisfied with the result. This is then painted with 2 coats of POR15 Glisten, which is a 2 pack gloss clear coat (they no longer make this product in satin)



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/594.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pcWtkAhOj)


Here are some before and after shots of the same area

Straight out of the molasses bath

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/595.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p8TxxNQfj)



After much scrubbing with phosphoric acid

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/596.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipPhrEfqj)




After 1 coat of POR15

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/597.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f0v9MYtDj)









For the inside, the chassis had a coat of penetrol, which will be followed with a thick layer of cavity wax. .




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/598.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p54Vfldmj)




The firewall came out a bit shiny so I am considering a light rub back with some 1000 wet & dry and giving it a coat of KBS satin finish. This may still bring out the underlying gloss of the POR15 (a bit of trial and error)




Erich

[Bundalene]

I haven't been able to do much due to a sore finger, but I now have had the stitches removed and can gingerly wear a glove, although not for long.

I had a good look at the original rear springs and they appear in reasonable condition with a free camber of 112mm (left) and 120mm (right) which appears to be OK. (102mm and 114mm by the book)

The only issue as there is a little wear in the second leaf on the left spring, at the point where the material width steps in. I am aware you are able to get the correct spring material guillotined to the correct width, but not sure if the thickness is available.

I will go through all the spares next week and see if I have any in better condition, else I will see a spring man early next week to see if I can have the 2 main leaves made for each side. The leaves are now resting in the molasses bath.




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/407.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f0z8tOrQj)


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/408.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/exLZgDX5j)


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/409.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyFtRRKuj)


On the down side, do not put the likes of the brake master cylinder into molasses as it eats the housing. (I will post a pic at a later date) I did read not to put cast material into the molasses, but now I know. Fortunately I have another which came with a bunch of spares from an auction.



We will be assisting our father-in-law move to a retirement village at Sanctuary Point for the rest of this week and then Christmas is almost upon us.



Erich

[JDNSW]

I don't think the correct thickness is available - it was an imperial size, and it is worth noting that even by late Series 3 the spring leaf thickness changed; and I think it was purely material availability, possibly as a result of the collapse of the UK steel industry, as well as metrication.

John

[mfc]

After the " bundalene's daughters 130 thread" I have high hopes of you're rebuild [emoji1] Not that I know much but the front of that hard top looks like my 1955 86 " with a chunk chopped out to fit it to an 80 [emoji33]...

[Yorkie]

Going well erich and expect to see the finished results in the new year. Have a good Xmas for you and Sheila, when next in darwin give us a hoy.

[slug_burner]

Spring material no longer available in such thin thickness. Spring works can make a whole new spring pack but will not look the same, probably end up with parabolic arrangement as the new material thickness is 1/4 inch from memory.

[Bundalene]

Thank you for that, I have had a talk with a local spring man and I think to make one or 2 leaves out of a thicker material will look a bit odd.

The only leaf I need is the one which steps down in width and then wraps around what I call the main leaf. I have 4 sets of these narrow thin rear springs, 3 of which are still on vehicles and all are quite worn, the best of which I have in a molasses tank at present. Strangely enough I have not seen this leaf broken, usually the main or one further down the pack.

My nephew buys a lot of steel out of 2 different mills in China and I will do some research in the New Year and see if there is a suitable product available, even if I have to buy a sheet, I am sure there would be others interested.




Erich

[slug_burner]

I am not a metallurgist so take this with a grain of ungoogled salt, what about getting the thicker leaf spring, heating it and rolling it out to the desired thickness. I think with the correct heat treatment the spring properties could be reinstated.

A man of your talents could rig up an English wheel sort of thing on a shop press and with a heat source you could get the rolling happening. The spring works would be able to supply the original material and they may be able to reinstate the spring properties once you have rolled it.

[chazza]

I think you are quite correct Sluggie - a set of rolls could easily be made to reduce the thickness and a charcoal forge made to heat the springs. In fact I have made forges in the past, which were used for softening spring steel to make knives.

Re-hardening and tempering is done by quality spring works such as Westralia Springworks.

Top idea cobber! :D

Cheers Charlie

[Bundalene]

I was actually thinking of using my milling machine and reducing the thickness as a last resort, then taking it back to the spring man. The machine bed is more than long enough as long as I can clamp the material suitable.


I had a yarn with my nephew over a few drinks yesterday, and he feels there is suitable material available, but it will be a towards the end of Jan until he is back from hols. Until then I will work with what I have.





Erich

[Bundalene]

After the " bundalene's daughters 130 thread" I have high hopes of you're rebuild [emoji1] Not that I know much but the front of that hard top looks like my 1955 86 " with a chunk chopped out to fit it to an 80 [emoji33]...



That was some build, the 2 of us spent a whole month, 12hrs per day on that, but it worked out great, still going strong, considering it was 5 years since it saw a tar road, very much a bush hunting / fishing and local run about vehicle. That is a new set of BFG muddies, they don't make 40k kms in those conditions, but nothing else comes close.

This 80inch build will take quite a while, it is a very steep learning curve and there are all sorts of non mainstream bits which have to be sourced.

As for the roof on the 80inch, that is off an 86inch with a bit choped out to allow the windscreen to fold down.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/185.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyz0bKDEj)
Pic taken when we were in Gapuwiyak earlier this year





Erich

[Bundalene]

Some progress, cleaning heaps of parts which have been in the molasses bath. Some parts are usable and some aren't. Most of these are from a spares pile we bought at auction. just going through things and sorting them.



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/165.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/idMpZ3ZQj)


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/166.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p7PQhLNVj)



Also shortened a spring shackle bushes to suit the various areas on the vehicle. I bought standard length bushes and parted them off in the lathe.



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/167.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/exZL6lnlj)



I have to sort out my press to be able to remove the bearings off the rear axles. I have used an Enerpac hand pump in the past and had larger parts pressed elsewhere, but managed to score a power unit the other day, which should work nicely. All I need now is a control valve and a few hoses. I should have that sorted in a week or so.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/168.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ey2WF5Zjj)





Oh then there are the BSF taps and dies (must be HSS), I have every other known set but not those. I missed some on Ebay a few weeks ago.



Erich

[wrinklearthur]

------ Oh then there are the BSF taps and dies (must be HSS), I have every other known set but not those. I missed some on Ebay a few weeks ago.

Hi Erich

Sorry mate it sounds like I was the culprit! :angel:

I have just acquired a set of BSF taps and die's --- off eBay, a few weeks ago, then chased around for the missing 9/16" tap and die to complete the set to cover all eventuality's.

Now I have brought a set of die nuts as well, there are some of those I need to fill the gaps with as well, again the 9/16" isn't there.
9 16" 16 TPI BSF HEX DIE NUT | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/160935337257'ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/164.jpg

Another recent acquisition is a Oxy - Acetylene welding and cutting set, should be very handy for those little problem events.
.

[klonk]

Sorry double post.

[klonk]

(Thank you for that, I have had a talk with a local spring man and I think to make one or 2 leaves out of a thicker material will look a bit odd.)

Hi Erich
I got two rear main leaves made for Klonk out of 6mm . When assembled it was hard to pick the difference. When in the vehicle it would slip past most rivet counters. But I wouldn't like to make a whole spring pack out of it the 1/2 mm or so would add up for sure. The rear springs can be 9 or 10 leaf and have 3 different thickness leaves, the 9 have 7x 5.56 & 2 x 4.76mm and the 10 has all 5.16mm , according to the w/shop manual.

Cheers Steve

[Bundalene]

Back from Christmas stuff and helping our father-in-law move and settle into his new accommodation.



Thanks Steve for the info, you are right, who will ever know the difference between 5.6mm and 6mm for the 2 main leaves. Mine are the 9 leaf set, 7 x 5.56mm and the bottom pair, 2 x4.76mm. I could be still looking for thinner material for the front springs though.




I have had the rear springs disassembled and in a molasses bath since just before Christmas. I have now pressure washed these, cleaned them, coated them individually with Penetrol, preserving the used look. I chose not to sand blast and paint.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/1083.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyZEKKZMj)





I then cleaned out the bolt holes with a 5/16 bit, greased each leaf with Dixon's ( a graphite mixed with linseed oil) which I have had in the cupboard for years. I will probably regret this later as the stuff is hard to wash off your hands or clothing. Then inserted the shackle bushes, which I machined down in length, earlier.

The center bolt is a 5/16 x 2 1/2 inch BSF Ubrako allen head bolt with a nylock nut and the pack clamp bolts are the same at this stage (also have heaps of these bolts in the cupboard) I made the spacers from some old County 5/16 steel fuel line I found. All bolts and bushes were installed with graphite to make removal easier in another 50 years time or so.





https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/1084.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/exwe7NhEj)






Rear springs are complete, with a free camber of 4 inch for the passengers side and 4 1/2 inch for the drivers side. I will make a second set when our Spring guy gets back from holidays and quietens down a bit.



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/1085.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p1tPACIKj)


That lot took heaps of time, plus the research associated with this. BTW I was reading some articles advising not to grease springs as the material breaks down. This as much as anything has been a learning exercise.

[slug_burner]

Grease and dirt makes for a good lapping paste, I was told that it would wear the leaves faster.

[JDNSW]

Grease and dirt makes for a good lapping paste, I was told that it would wear the leaves faster.

This used to be my view on the subject, but my views have shifted. As with any subject such as this, it is a compromise. Grease and dirt do make a good lapping paste, but on the other hand, un-greased springs ride much more harshly, and in most cases rust is more of a threat than wear - and water plus dirt is just as good a lapping paste.

The ideal is to have the spring completely enclosed in a flexible, waterproof casing, fitted with a grease nipple, and grease regularly - this was what was done on many luxury cars when these had leaf springs on all corners, but the problem is getting casings that stay waterproof, and ensuring regular greasing. If the casing lets water in you have the worst possible situation - water, dirt, and it never dries.

My present position is to disassemble and grease the springs ecery few years, spreading the leaves and greasing a bit every service.

John

[mick88]

Before I put the parabolic springs on my series 3, every couple of months I would jack the vehicle up from the chassis to let the axles drop and the spring leaves separate as much as possible. I would then spray them liberally with Innox three or four times over a two or three day period. I buy the Innox in a four litre container and apply it with a spray bottle, but the pressure packs would do the job, just a little more expensive.
Anyway this really gets the springs freed up and moving, only down side is you get a bit of clunking as the leaves move over any of the wear lips/ridges on the next spring. Nothing a bit of time spent dismantling and dressing with an angle grinder wouldn't fix.


Cheers, Mick.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Have you thought about UHMW polyethylene plastic tape on the upper sides of each leaf (apart from the main leaf) this allows for reduced friction between the leaves but does not attract grit to act as a grinding paste.

[groucho]

If those Unbrako cap screws are high tensile they most probably snap with shock loading. Ever noticed that all OEM springs are fitted with mild steel centre bolts. All centre bolts are mild steel the will bend a lot before they snap.

[Bundalene]

If those Unbrako cap screws are high tensile they most probably snap with shock loading. Ever noticed that all OEM springs are fitted with mild steel centre bolts. All centre bolts are mild steel the will bend a lot before they snap.

Point taken. These bolts are pretty tough, however, I have some mild steel bolts here in the drawer. It took about 10 minutes to turn down the heads and fit these. This now looks similar to a bolt I have just removed from a front 80inch front spring



replacement bolt
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/1054.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f0LpbvJoj)



One I just removed
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/1055.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f007c7Ekj)





Erich

[123rover50]

You are going well Erich.
I grease all my springs as well with a moly grease.
I bought new centrebolts from the local spring bloke, because he had them.
Turning down the heads of an ordinary bolt may be OK but often the socket that the peg head fits into can be worn especially around the entry.
The longer head gets further up the hole and can locate better.

Keith

[JDNSW]

As Keith says - actually, last time I was doing this I drilled out the holes in the axle and turned up sleeves to make an exact fit between the axle holes and the centrebolts.

John

[Bundalene]

We have been having a play with some front springs. The vehicle we are restoring came with only 1 front spring and the vehicles we have purchased haven't fared much better. One has both left spring and right spring broken main leaves as per pic




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/1002.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyKpZ1iij)



So I am assuming the axle housing end is a weak point with these. We have several vehicles I can use for parts, but 1 has narrow front springs, another I am reluctant to touch at this stage and one has a pair of badly worn main leaves, see pic below. I have disassembled these and dropped them into the molasses bath



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/985.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/hjSht95ij)



I have a single sagged front spring was given another set of sagged front springs by a friend, so I decided to have a go at resetting these using a ball pein hammer and an anvil. The free camber for these should be 102.5mmmm and were around 90mm. A bit of trial and error and the free camber was back a tad over required. I was contemplating on re-tempering them but probably won't at this stage



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/1003.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/idBj9E3Dj)


BTW we open the spring packs at the base and not the top as I find less likely hood of breaking the clamps and also easy to re-clamp in a vice.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/1004.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/idG6sCS5j)


Also, I thrive on constructive criticism as I make a lot of things up as I go and don't always get it right the first time. I am often way out of my comfort zone as today flogging springs with a crook finger :p:p.




Erich

[Bundalene]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/985.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/hjSht95ij)





I have come across this on 4 sets of wide 80 inch front springs to varying degrees.

Just thinking - to stop the above happening, would it be a problem to cut a piece of spring the length of the base of the axle housing and attaching this to the top of the a good main leaf of the spring with a longer center bolt? Could use another material such as stainless, it would work harden and crack, MS too soft????





This would alter the free camber a little.




Erich

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Erich

You could do a number of things, however first thing that you have to do is throw those ones away.

For the wide front springs, you can salvage the main leaf off any later S1/SII/SIII original front spring which are only marginally thicker leaves (5.16mm (same as narrow 80" front) versus 4.2mm for wide front 80")

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/984.jpg

[wrinklearthur]

There are plates between the rear axle housing and the springs and you are right that stops a lot of wear.

That plate is part of the bracket that supports the rear brake lines to the backing plate on the 86" / 107" and later, leaf spring models.
.

[JDNSW]

I have come across this on 4 sets of wide 80 inch front springs to varying degrees.

Just thinking - to stop the above happening, would it be a problem to cut a piece of spring the length of the base of the axle housing and attaching this to the top of the a good main leaf of the spring with a longer center bolt? Could use another material such as stainless, it would work harden and crack, MS too soft????





This would alter the free camber a little.




Erich

The wear on the top leaf is due to movement between the axle and the spring. This should be prevented by a tight fitting centrebolt and check tightening of the U-bolts every service as recommended. Of course, a wear plate could be fitted (if just the size of the axle pad, but with ends rounded up, it will not affect the spring), but if properly maintained, there should be no wear.

John

[groucho]

80" rear springs I had re set
6" drivers side 5/34" pas/side





https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/948.jpg (http://s643.photobucket.com/user/markfromOZ/media/land%20rovers/80springs002_zpscc3106f0.jpg.html)

[klonk]

Be carefull setting the springs up to 6" free camber on an 80" landy, due to the short rear driveshaft it makes it run at an extreme angle causing the universals to wear out early.

The 80"s were set at 4" free camber, the 86,88 etc had the 6" camber. Some spring people don't know the difference .

Cheers Steve

[groucho]

Good point there klonk.
Allowing for the fully assembled weight and a little settle and enough food water gear plus fuel and spares for 2 people for a pretty epic trip it should be close to the mark on the 4/12" set. Those springs don't have a big load rating, that was the plan. Sadly the good mate passed away that we planed to do a good trip so I kind of lost a bit of interest....

[groucho]

The land rover that belonged to this door went all of these places with a 1.6 motor that was wore out and re sleeved and wore out again no trailer and only the one fuel tank. It was set up well.. That is what a Land Rover should be used for not sit and looked at...





https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/884.jpg (http://s643.photobucket.com/user/markfromOZ/media/land%20rovers/Door1019.jpg.html)

[Bundalene]

Just a quick one on springs, are we measuring from the same place on the spring? I believe Free Camber is the measurement taken from the base of the spring shackle bush and not the center of the shackle bush. Free Camber is measurement referred to in the Workshop Manual, not Arch................ Any Comments?





This is a typical NON Land Rover example found on the internet.
http://imageshack.com/a/img633/5482/BNOrAQ.gif (https://imageshack.com/i/hlBNOrAQg)



I found a few hours today to play Series1's, seems as it has been raining all day.


I now have a set of front springs I can work with. They need to be reset slightly (they both measure 92 - 95mm. I will get into them later in the week on the anvil. All associated hardware is pretty good. I have a set of U bolt nut locking tabs.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/872.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p8Q2rcGyj)





The tops are in very good condition. Not sure what the "D" represents

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/873.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipGHCN8zj)





This lot went into the bath today. Even the shocks seem to work, but I will probably be looking for some replacements.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/874.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f0NU78bwj)






Springs still in the vehicle. I will replace these with another set to keep the car rolling


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/875.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/exuOdGzgj)


Also, I now have BSF common sizes taps and dies, still would like die nuts.




Erich

[klonk]

[QUOTE=Bundalene;2300014]Just a quick one on springs, are we measuring from the same place on the spring? I believe Free Camber is the measurement taken from the base of the spring shackle bush and not the center of the shackle bush. Free Camber is measurement referred to in the Workshop Manual,

The tops are in very good condition. Not sure what the "D" represents



Hi Erich
Good question, when I reset klonks springs I used the the bush centres and I reset a 1/2" higher all round to allow for settling , so I had a bet both ways.

Maybe the "D" is for the drivers side spring. ;)

Cheers Steve

[Bundalene]

Wow, that was a long time away from my obsession, family and work commitments got in the way.

Our next goal is to get to a rolling chassis. The vehicle I am restoring came with original axle housings and 1 diff but little in the way of hubs and axle assemblies.

I have removed an assembly from a 53 80inch and I assume they are the same or very similar (by the parts book) I disassembled the front housing this afternoon. Normally I would have pressure cleaned this first, but the pressure cleaner is playing up. I need to get some new seals for the unloader valve. My first 2 attempts of replacing the O rings didn't work,

There are a number of things to be addressed in this front end - swivels, bearings, seals, front diff? front brakes (all sorts of issues). This is the first time I have seen a Tracta joint, having read about them and seen pics.

My work area is a bit cramped and needs a good tidy.


This afternoon we went from this
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/302.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyv5PTrjj)







To this

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/303.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p1KjwNH6j)




Hopefully I am getting closer to bolt bits back onto the chassis!

Does anyone know any differences between the 51 (wide front springs) and the 53 in this area



Erich

[klonk]

I don't think there's any difference in the 51 and 53 springs. The one to watch for are the S2 springs are also able to fit but they have the slightly different positions for the keepers that hold the leaves together and this fouls on the steering linkage at full lock. Some times fitted by previous owners.

Hope your diffs are in better condition than klonks, I think it cost me about $280 just for the 4 bearings in each. The pinion bearing closest to the pinion gear cost the most, it's a different size to S2 and S2a.

Cheers Steve

[Bundalene]

We spent the whole day cleaning the parts removed yesterday, quite an effort.



From the likes of this

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/258.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f0GeCGKoj)






To this

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/259.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipkCVtCbj)






This allowed us to closely inspect parts and see what is required, Good news the stub axles and drive flanges are OK, the right has a little slack, probably no more than half the Defenders out there and the really good. The wheel bearings were packed in heaps of grease, probably way too much and are in good condition, I probably don't need to replace these, though that are consumables IMHO. The rear seals were leaking slightly as the grease in the inner bearings was tinted black, Also both inner wheel bearings appeared a bit loose on the shaft though there was no sign of them spinning on the shaft. It may be prudent to install them with some retaining compound.




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/260.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipEIeIh7j)





The axle splines also seem OK with no apparent wear nor evidence of twisting. The diff seems to be in good order with the slightest movement, although I haven't cleaned this yet. The diff housing had a lubricant with the consistency somewhere between grease and oil.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/261.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipxdOBxSj)



The right swivel pin connection (if that is what they are called) - the splined connection to the top of the swivel housing is unserviceable (stuffed) and the left one is quite good - not perfect by any means. The swivels were packed in a thick grease which I think is quite unsuitable but probably the only lubricant which would stay there as the seals were rock hard and the chrome has been worn away at places and will need attention.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/262.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/idGSVI5bj)





As far as I could tell the tracta joints appear to be in good order, but the bronze bush in the end of the stub axle housing which I think should support the shaft adjacent to the tractor joint had a lot of clearance


Bronze bush in which the shaft in the background runs
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/263.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyXHj4khj)



I haven't got far with the brakes, other than to find one of the snail type adjusters is way too loose and the spring isn't working at all. This will have to be addressed. I think these are a grind to remove fitting? The snail bit seems OK. I may turn up the stepped retainer in the lathe.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/264.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eypZ9h9Bj)


The main item I am uncertain about is the bronze bush near the tracta joint. I must admit I haven't had time to research this.




Erich

[Bundalene]

I did a bit of pottering after our Australia Day lunch. A great way to spend a few hours, cleaning a few parts which were soaking in the molasses bath.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/179.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f0azKbC0j)






I also found a pair of good working shocks which scrubbed up pretty well. I am not sure if they are originals , but they look the part. These are Munros

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/180.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p9kxwwQjj)





Last thing, I thought I would have a go at removing the axle from the swivel hub. The short one is OK but the press I used isn't deep enough for the long one - have to go to plan B


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/181.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f0cA9zSNj)



Still taking bits apart, not turning the spanners in the correct direction yet!!

Erich

[klonk]

The main item I am uncertain about is the bronze bush near the tracta joint. I must admit I haven't had time to research this.

Erich[/QUOTE]


Hi Erich
I bought a brass bush from the bearing shop and cut it in half. The outside diameter was right for the axel stub housing, but the inside diameter was too small for the axel, so I pressed the bushes into the housing and machined them to size in the lathe at work.
Cost was about $15.

Cheers Steve

[Cobber]

Going back through this over the course of today has been quite informative. It's shaping up well for you, well done :BigThumb:

[Bundalene]

We did a bit of shopping today as I had to go to Karcraft anyhow. I was able to buy about 2/3 of the items I was after - mainly seals, tie rod ends, and hub nuts and tabs.

I also went to a hard chrome company in Silverwater with a swivel hub but the price just for the hard chrome without any polishing was $150 per swivel. I want to have the swivels chromed rather than other options I have read about. I may look at the exchange option.


Thanks for the info Steve, we have a pretty competitive bearing supplier up the road, just need to find time to get there. I might have to get a smaller boring bar, mine are large and larger, a good investment regardless.


I do have a set of adjustable reamers, but somewhere in my grey matter I remember that it is not good practice to ream out bronze bushes or was that sintered bronze?



Erich

[klonk]

I do have a set of adjustable reamers, but somewhere in my grey matter I remember that it is not good practice to ream out bronze bushes or was that sintered bronze?

Erich


Yep don't ream sintered bronze

Cheers Steve

[wrinklearthur]

I do have a set of adjustable reamers, but somewhere in my grey matter I remember that it is not good practice to ream out bronze bushes or was that sintered bronze?

Hi Erich

I was able to find some references to sintered and solid bronze bushes.

Ref;www.scotttechnicalities.com.au/technicalities/Son%20of%20Technicalities/Small%20End%20Bushes.pdf


Small End Bushes.txt
I copy my operation sheet for your general interest
Small End
Phosphor Bronze from EMAM is 27 OD x 12 bore as A4358
rough to 21mm od x 67 lg x 19/32 drill bore but watch that rough bore is true.
This blank makes two bushes. Hold in 21mm collet to produce first bush, hold on
first bush to make second bush, then part off, face and chamfer.
check internal bore as this is always marginal on boring
Nom bore in rod 0.8125"
Hone out to give 85% clean up
Turn bronze bush blank +0.0015 / 0.0020" OD
Bronze bush rough bore 0.593" = 19/32" drill
Length = Rod width + 1.4mm
Chamfer ends + bores
Turn lead Rod bore - 0.0005" x 1.5mm
Push in rod
Mill cutout + ( side oil reliefs for racing)
Drill + Tap 2BA for security screw (Racing)
Loctite in 2BA brass cheese head screw flush to inside of bush blank (Racing)
Bore to 0.6245" dia on jig to correct centre distance
Internal oil grooves on racing engines by hand.(Racing)
Hone to loose SF on gudgeon pin 0.6262 / 0.6265" dia
Cut off brass screw (Racing)
I do realise that my methods are perhaps more "particular" than normal, but I
have made many machines for car factories and note the tolerances specified. The
reliability of Japanese products is, to a large extent, a result of accuracy of
manufacture.
I am not looking for work and if you do not have the facilities, perhaps a local
engineering shop or good model engineer can help.
Whatever you do, I do urge you to be sure that you have accuracy within two thou
in parallel and twist. I aim for one thou.
I would strongly recommend that you do not resort to the trick of putting in the
hole and then bending and twisting the rod till it seems to have alignment. The
rod usually "Unwinds" in service and reverts to its unstressed attitude. A rod
that has been running will have settled into its natural attitude and will not
move again in normal use. It therefore follows that the hole should be put in
correctly first time.
An engine with rods in good alignment will give a good service life.
Alfred Scott knew exactly what he was talking about when he chose the logo "Made
to limit gauge" Of all the components in this deceptively simple engine, the rod
little end to big end alignment is by far the most crucial.
Kindest Regards and Happy Christmas
Roger Moss
_________________
Rebuilding and upgrading of Scott and Silk power and transmission units. New
enhanced replica Scott engines. Special manufacture Scott technical info at our
website Moss Engineering (http://www.mossengineering.co.uk)



Ref; http://www.lm-tarbell.com/common_questions_about_oil_filled_bronze_bearings. htm]Common Questions About Oil Filled Bronze Bearings


Q: How long does the oil last?
A: An Oil Filled/Sintered Bronze Bearing with a 3/4"
diameter and 1-1/4" in diameter and 1-1/8" long
was run at 1800 RPM for a total of 1,321,920,000 revolutions
without exhibiting wear or scoring of the shaft.

On a high speed application a sintered bronze bearing with a
9/16" ID and 3/4" long was run at 9500 RPM for a striking
456,000,000 revolutions without depleting the oil
content and without scoring the shaft.

Q: Can different oil or grease be used in sintered bronze bushings:
A: Yes. High temp, wax based ( anti-migration

Q: What is the porosity (oil by volume) of a sintered bronze bearing?
A: 22%

Q: How do Oil Filled/Sintered Bronze Bearings perform in shock
and impact applications?
A: An automotive steering gear assembly was run to destruction. Conditions
were an impact load of more than 6,000 lbs. PSI at 800 RPM. The sintered
bronze bearing and mating shaft worked perfectly.

Q: How do Oil Filled/Sintered Bronze Bearings perform in high
speed applications?
A: On a high speed, portable tool operating at 20,000 RPM with a
hardened and ground RC 60 shaft our bushings have lasted far beyond
the OEM Mfr's lifetime requirements.

Q: How do Oil Filled/Sintered Bronze Bearings perform in
severe duty applications?
A: On a rigorous railroad application Super ( 863 ) Oil Filled Bearings
gave an outstanding 631,000 miles of travel over a 57 month period -
and were approved for further mileage! Until our bushings were used,
the normal life was 225,000 miles.

Q: Can you lap or ream a sintered bronze bearing?
A: NEVER LAP a Sintered Bronze Bearing! The abrasive will embed itself
into the bearing/oil and turn it into a lapping compound - You will quickly
destroy your shaft.
.

[JDNSW]

Reaming of bronze bushes is normal practice wherever close tolerances are specified - the bush is usually pressed in place, which means it will be smaller than finished size as it is in compression. A good example is in traditional kingpin bushes, which were always reamed in place, although this was as much about reaming them so the two bushes were in the same alignment.

John

[numpty]

Reaming of bronze bushes is normal practice wherever close tolerances are specified - the bush is usually pressed in place, which means it will be smaller than finished size as it is in compression. A good example is in traditional kingpin bushes, which were always reamed in place, although this was as much about reaming them so the two bushes were in the same alignment.

John

That brings back memories John. I still have the adjustable reamer I used for my VW Beetle front end kingpins.

[Bundalene]

We have been away most of the week and will be off again on Thursday for a few days.

Anyhow today was a good day as we managed to get our press operational, not finished but functional. It is great to be able to remove those axle collars without having to borrow other people's equipment. The press' maximum pressure is 12 tonnes and this was just enough to remove the bearings, with some heat applied to the locking collar



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/901.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipvWuevLj)



Also cleaned up both axle housings ready for assembly. I do have an issue with one of the spring locating bolt holes being severely elongated and requiring attention, possibly boring out and sleeving. I think this will be difficult to hold in the mill vice, and I am not sure about welding and re-drilling

Excuse the photo quality, it was taken well after dark
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/902.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pd54E4BEj)



I also places an order with Craddocks for a few odds and ends.


Hopefully there will be more progress next week

Any suggestions with the axle housing



Erich

[slug_burner]

Clean it up, use a burr to get rid of suspect material and then braze it. Common way to deal with cast.

[Bundalene]

Clean it up, use a burr to get rid of suspect material and then braze it. Common way to deal with cast.

Thanks for the suggestion, I wasn't aware of brazing cast. Of all the things I don't have is an oxy, but in offered this up to our mill and it goes into the vice nicely, so I will bore it and machine up a sleeve. Maybe a bit of overkill but it gets the job done.

We will be away until Sunday night and again some of next week. I am finding iit hard to get my teeth into this project


Erich

[Bundalene]

Wow it has been 3 weeks since I posted. I have little to show in that time, although barely a day passes when I am not doing something towards the restoration.

We have placed orders and received lots of bits, and have been doing lots of research and talking to some VERY knowledgeable people with lots of tips and inspiration.

I had a few issued with the pneumatic tool changer on the mill but that is all sorted and the axle housing is repaired




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/56.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pbpAMq3yj)



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/57.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/exz18CY7j)





Also bought a few storage units from a Grays Online Auction.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/58.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p9mZsRt5j)



I bought 3 of these. The crates get discarded from the local asian vegie shop.


Will post more later when time permits.



Erich

[Bundalene]

I am waiting on a set of exchange chrome swivel balls, may be a while yet. I have decided to go this way rather than the paint method or questionable new components.

I will take a step back and install swivel bearings top and bottom, removing the splined arrangement which was in place when I stripped it down. I am informed that the earlier Series 1's had this arrangement. I am going this way because it is cheap, easy and hopefully effective. I believe the downside is that it is difficult to get desired pre-load.



Step 1 pin punch out the dowel or sellock pin
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/48.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/exp14Wkcj)





Press out the splined shaft
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/49.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ey9KOzFRj)






Machine up a new shaft. Material used is vibrac or EN26.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/50.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyoiiglbj)






Press back in, drill shaft and insert pin
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/51.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f0hI49GMj)








New versus old
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/1366.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/exNnTfb4j)







Ready for the swivels when they arrive.





Erich

[JDNSW]

I will be interested to see how it goes. The change to a friction bearing (cone and spring) from roller bearings was found necessary to stop wheel shimmy.

The change back to roller bearings top and bottom with late Defenders was probably possible with better tyre manufacture (radials) wheel balancing (in the 1940s wheels were never balanced except on a few high speed vehicles) and the steering dampers that were unheard of in the 1940s.

John

[Bundalene]

Yes John, I am told that there are plenty of current vehicles with this arrangement, I really don't want to have to fit a steering damper though. If unsuccessful I can easily go the Railko way.

Can anyone correct me if wrong but aren't the bush section the Railko bushes a section of turned Canvas Bakelite?




Erich

[JDNSW]

Yes, with a thrust washer of the same material. But I have no idea how critical the exact specification of the material is, although the surface finish of the pin as well as exact fit probably is fairly critical.

A lot of vehicles do and have in the past used double roller bearings for swivels or king pins (including wartime Jeeps), but it is very hard to transfer experience from one vehicle to another. Wheel shimmy is very dependent on suspension details including king pin inclination, caster, tyre offset, sideways compliance of springs, drag link geometry etc, and all these vary in non-obvious ways from vehicle to vehicle.

As I said, I will be very interested to see how it goes!

John

[Bundalene]

I spent a fair while yesterday cleaning up a pair of diffs, mainly the built up crud on the outside.

One thing I would like to achieve in this project is the 'black are of diff setting' among other things. I have learnt so much already and have only just started.

I had a customer here yesterday who had a look over the diffs, he himself has set up quite a number of rover diffs and he offered a day down the track to show me the finer points and what to look out for in setting these. For now, both diffs seem quite tight and the wear position marks on the crown wheel and pinion seems correct, in his opinion. These are now oiled and covered waiting for installation.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/1541.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipbw8udVj)

The drive flanges, nuts and washers are in the molasses bath


Next - front brakes




Erich

[Bundalene]

I will take a step back and install swivel bearings top and bottom, removing the splined arrangement which was in place when I stripped it down. I am informed that the earlier Series 1's had this arrangement. I am going this way because it is cheap, easy and hopefully effective. I believe the downside is that it is difficult to get desired pre-load.



New versus old
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/1366.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/exNnTfb4j)







Erich

Further to this previous post, I removed a swivel today to check on a chrome ball and found this



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/1400.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyuiif55j)


The same mod which I am doing. There was a thrust washer between the end of the shaft and the bearing


Also we have been sorting front wheel brake components. I would like to put back cylinders with a BSF thread so that all the attachments and lines go back on without too much modification. I am aware that UNF cylinders are cheap and as a pinch I can make some BSF to UNF adapters

The vehicle we are restoring came without and brake components, basically a bare rear diff housing and a front housing with a diff and 1 swivel






We have 3 buckets of brake components purchased from the Walcha auction and recovered 1 damaged cast front wheel cylinder and about 30 alloy wheel cylinders. From all I have read, there seem to be some of these of dubious quality. The long and short I have located 4 cast wheel cylinders and given all a light hone. One left one might make the grade but both right ones are cracked



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/1401.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/iprw7bCdj)



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/1402.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipwQ3wj3j)



cracked cylinder

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/1403.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p1MYPfWvj)




Some of these came from pretty corroded units

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/1404.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/patwIJLsj)




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/1405.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyp2PwSUj)





As for brake shoes, we have heaps for the front


The one from this vehicle I soaked in a molasses bath a while back and when I took it out after a week, it seemed to disintegrate in my fingers. I put this away into storage into that box which can't be found until you don't need it any more. Luckily there was another in the box of stares from Walcha. I stripped this and gave it a light hone by hand and it appears to need a sleeve






https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/1406.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipF5ouY3j)






All seems there, I will need a sleeve, seal kit and a large copper washer
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/1407.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f094H2Hxj)


I will be off to Burts Brakes shortly to see what the damage is ::(:(



Another item which needed addressing was the snail adjuster on one of the backing plates which turned freely by finger. I removed the snail bit, pressed the collar or spacer on a bit - about 1/2 mm and will weld back the snail - ran out of time today. The unit now turns with a little resistance as it should.





You can see the small lip at the top of the collar which is how far it moved
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/1408.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/id9WK8o8j)




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/1409.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pa3YvWabj)


This stuff is so time consuming - it took me the best part of 1 hour just to remove a single bleed nipple


Erich

[Bundalene]

Burt Brothers Brakes can do all, not sure about the prices but probably in the ball park where I expected.

Re-sleeve the master cylinder as it needs sleeving. This means 2 sleeves, one in the bore and another on the plunger as the plunger is also worn. Apparently the plunger seal is more critical then the bore seal I am told.

Price $80 per sleeve and a total of a bit under $200 for the 2 sleeves, seals and the unit re-assembled. Wheel cylinders are $60 per sleeve.

I will remove a master cylinder from another 80inch and see what condition that is in.

They can also make the flexible hose tails with BSF fittings on each end at $60 each.

Also have the copper washers for the banjo bolts etc etc. Prices above are approximate


Still having a think about which direction to go as I could buy the $20 - $25 wheel cylinders and have a hose tail with BSF on one end and UNF on the other. I will check all the brake lines and fittings before committing.


Erich

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Some vendors who used to be great and not worth the tyre rubber to go to anymore. Particularly when they do things like fit seals in master cylinders the wrong way around, which can be very dangerous if you ever manage to bleed the system in the first place.

For a vendor who is still reliable, try B & R Brakes,
176 Sunnyholt Rd, Blacktown NSW 2148
9621 6488

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I will take a step back and install swivel bearings top and bottom, removing the splined arrangement which was in place when I stripped it down. I am informed that the earlier Series 1's had this arrangement. I am going this way because it is cheap, easy and hopefully effective. I believe the downside is that it is difficult to get desired pre-load.

New versus old
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/1366.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/exNnTfb4j)Erich

I'f you're going to fit tapered roller bearings to the top of the swivels, it will make the steering lighter and transmit lots of bumps etc from the road, so you will be well advised to fit a steering damper to protect your thumbs.

Diana

[Bundalene]

For a vendor who is still reliable, try B & R Brakes,
176 Sunnyholt Rd, Blacktown NSW 2148
9621 6488

Thanks for the heads up, I called in late this afternoon and they are going to quote up in the morning with several different options. The prices appear remarkably similar.


Erich

[Bundalene]

Back again from a few days away.

We have been removing the few rust patches from the chassis. Almost done.




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/756.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyEhqp3Mj)



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/757.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p1yMivPCj)





Also I figured out how to press back on the swivels which arrived late on Monday. I was going to re-use the locking collars, but the Workshop Manual advises to replace them. I was able to source these locally from Karcraft pretty cheaply so I didn't machine them myself. Also sourced new bearings locally



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/758.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p9ehU8Pqj)




Also managed to damage the steering relay unit which goes through the chassis. I had to cut out a very stubborn bolt in this when I removed this some time ago. I broke the casing trying to press it out, even though it was soaking in Penetrene for weeks. I have sourced a new one from All 4 x 4. I was actually looking forward to service this. The steering relay had a little play, so it may have been doomed anyhow.



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/759.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pabMiP1Zj)



Also the brake parts are sorted, yet to be installed. I bought new wheel slave cylinders and had the master cylinder resleeved and this had a new plunger installed.





Erich

[JDNSW]

Free play in the relay probably just means that it needs overhauling, not replacing, but I doubt the casing can be satisfactorily repaired.

John

[Cliffy]

Great work! Keep it up!!!

[Bundalene]

I started assembling the swivels and housings today and it wasn't long to figure out that this wasn't straight forward. I am using taper bearings both top and bottom, rather than Railko and or the original cone arrangement, By using a taper bearing at both top and bottom there was a fair bit of movement up and down of the swivel which is the opposite to what I required for shimming. This was difficult to measure so I machined up a temporary spacer out of aluminium, assembled the swivel and measured the gap with feeler gauges, which then allowed me to make the correct spacer.

The exact measurement for zero shims was 3.5mm and the workshop manual recommends a minimum of 1mm of shims so I machined a 4.6mm washer out of Vibrac steel, which I believe is pretty tough.

I am very much a novice when it comes to machining but so far I have managed to stay out of trouble.






Hard to explain but this is what I mean
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/675.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p8mWnatVj)






Then I looked through all the spares and noticed one swivel steering arms with different length collar this not needing the spacer on the short axle side. I am confused.

Anyhow, I was assemble the swivels but unable to quite achieve the 6kgs preload as per workshop manual, but managed a bit over 5kgs - see how it goes. I imagine this preload will increase once the seal is put in place, but the manual says to measure before installing the seal.





https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/676.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p8uMDZjoj)






We will be a bit quiet on this project for a while as we have family coming down from the NT for a few weeks. after which we are off to a the Barossa / Adelaide for a reunion, In May we are off to our 3 yearly trip to Beef Week in Rocky where I will be manning a stand for a mate.

I might manage to sneak a bit in here and there


Erich

[JDNSW]

..........

Anyhow, I was assemble the swivels but unable to quite achieve the 6kgs preload as per workshop manual, but managed a bit over 5kgs - see how it goes. I imagine this preload will increase once the seal is put in place, but the manual says to measure before installing the seal.

.......


Erich

The book preload figure is almost entirely the friction from the cone and spring setup. With this replaced by a tapered roller bearing, the required preload will be much less - all that is required is sufficient to ensure that even under road conditions there is no free play to allow impact damage to the bearings. Trying to impose sufficient load on a roller bearing to create as much friction as with a plain bearing must result in overloading of the bearing, as the only way to increase friction in these is to distort the rollers. And roller bearings are not designed to operate with the distortion of rollers so large as to result in measurable resistance.

John

[123rover50]

The Disco has bearings top and bottom too.
Shims are used for preload but only to 1.16 to 1.46 kg.
So as John says, your figure may be too high and do more harm than good.
Keith

Just looked at the Book.
With the early bearing set up, A dial gauge is used to get zero end play then a .005" shim is removed to give the required preload.
With the spring and cone the preload is only 3 to 3.5 kg.
K

[Bundalene]

Thanks Keith and John for that advice. I have not done enough reading on the topic, blindly following my 1948 to 58 Series1 Manual. I have the earlier manual on RAVE, which I should have read as well. I still like the old fashion method of having the workshop manual with me on the job.

I see very early swivels actually use a dial indicator and not the spring method and as you rightly say preload for say a '51 model should be between 3 and 3.5kgs for the cone and spring arrangement.

I knew in my mind I was going to far and backed off,. I didn't like stressing these tapered races as I realise it is not good practice. My main concerns were of the possibility wheel shimmy caused by other influences such as a slightly unbalanced tyre or tie rod end.

I will back them off this morning, to the Disco levels, quite easy when it is on the bench.

I just had another look at my manual which covers Series 1's from 1948 to 1958. The section on this where they refer to setting the pre-load does not specify which vehicle it is intended for, but further on in the section under specifications, it lists variants for different year models and set-ups but none go as low as 3.5kgs.

I will keep my eye out for a more specific manual "paper" manual and use the more specific RAVE manual as a reference.




Erich

[slug_burner]

You could build up that missing piece with braze. Many components were prototyped in brass when land rover was developing the 80" You could hand file the external face smooth, you will need to machine the face true and re tap the thread. If you wanted to you could save that relay box, it comes down to how readily available these are.

[JDNSW]

......... My main concerns were of the possibility wheel shimmy caused by other influences such as a slightly unbalanced tyre or tie rod end.
.........

Erich

I think you are likely to have this problem. There is a very good reason why Rover changed from tapered rollers at the top, and you have just given it.

However, you may get away with it - in 1948 it was unheard of to balance wheels except on high performance cars, and then only rarely. Today it is normal.

John

[Cobber]

I've enjoyed going back through this thread, you've been making good progress well done :BigThumb:

[Bundalene]

The Disco has bearings top and bottom too.
Shims are used for preload but only to 1.16 to 1.46 kg.
So as John says, your figure may be too high and do more harm than good.
Keith

Just looked at the Book.
With the early bearing set up, A dial gauge is used to get zero end play then a .005" shim is removed to give the required preload.
With the spring and cone the preload is only 3 to 3.5 kg.
K

Thanks, I was able to set these to one at 1.2 - 1.4 and the other at 1.4 -1.5 and they now feel smooth as silk, not notchy. Seals have been greased and installed. I am using my digital fishing scales, they seem to be quire accurate.

I am glad I went through this process as I have gained a lot of knowledge. I have just come across 2 sets of completely assembled swivels (whole front ends) which will be used for future projects.




Erich

[Bundalene]

I haven't been here for a while, we spend a lot of time travelling and many projects on the go, anyhow I have a few weeks with some spare time.

Brakes.

The vehicle I am restoring was missing all hubs and backing plates / brakes, so here is another learning curve. I am assembling these brakes from a stack of bits in my shed. I am unsure about a few things.

As I see it, there are 2 types of 10inch brakes, early ones without the screw adjusters and later ones. In the early type all 4 backing plates were the same, later ones had a left and right with fronts having 1 1/4" pistons and rears having 1" pistons


Left is the early one, right is a later 10 inch left plate
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/455.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p9s2PiwDj)






Here is where I am to date and have a few questions:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/456.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/hlit2xwqj)

I have a heap of spare 10inch drum brake shoes and many trailing shoes don't have the holes for the anchor plate and those which do have the holes, most are not tapped.

The first thing in the repair manual says, "Remove the anchor plate securing the trailing brake shoe" So I assume these should have anchor plates





Pic of anchor plate
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/457.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/paPjEtCDj)





Makes me wonder if these are a general fitment. I cannot see these in the parts book, for any of the 10inch drums.




I am just assembling these to learn about them and will clean them up later, with new shoes.


Any advice is welcome.

Erich

[wrinklearthur]

Brakes.
-------
The vehicle I am restoring was missing all hubs and backing plates / brakes, so here is another learning curve. I am assembling these brakes from a stack of bits in my shed. ------

http://http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/910/PjEtCD.jpg

I seem to recall a 'Watchout', check the thread type in the shoes as somewhere along the way those threads went from BSF to UNF and the shoes are interchangeable.

[Bundalene]

I have not been keeping up with this post although things are progressing ever so slowly - It seems I am doing many things twice or spending a great deal of time researching.

This information below applies to a 1951 80inch, earlier or later models may be different. I am writing this as much for my own future reference.

I installed the spring bushes in the chassis last week. The rears went in OK, I wound them in with a long bolt, plenty of graphite.

The fronts are in 2 halves, to be pressed in from either side. The first one jammed half way in and I had to cut the bush to remove it. I then reamed the hole and made sure it was clean and started again with a bush from the other side of the chassis. This jammed again, same problem. I measured the bushes and they were .030 oversize same as the rears. I made new bushes and turned them down slightly, still a tight fit but they went in. For the record, if shortening your own bushes for the front rather than spending a lot buying short ones, the over all length of the pair of bushes by my measurements is 91.6mm give or take


Bushes used - genuine
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/312.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p8hAWjSej)












measurements of chassis bushes
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/313.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p7NOZxDhj)


Shackle bolt lengths from front to rear - all stepped bolts 9/16inch with a half inch thread / nut

Front 82mm non threaded 26mm thread (Overall 108mm)
Rear of front spring 96mm non threaded 130mm overall (2off each side)

Front of rear spring 65mm non threaded 88mm overall
Rear of rear spring 35mm non threaded 88mm overall. (2off on each side)

I nearly got caught out with the rear springs and that is why I am noting this.





If you are not careful it is easy to use the wrong bolt in the wrong spot

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/314.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p3MnC9ZZj)





Erich

[Bundalene]

As for front springs, I have just finished these using the 9 leaf skinny leaves. I set them to 125mm drivers side and 115 passengers side. Resetting springs using an anvil and a hammer is no exact science. Spend an hour belting them, assemble and measure. If not enough, have another go. The above measurements is how they turned out - near enough.

I also added a short leaf section on the top to reduce wear from the U bolus / axle housing base.


From the Series1 Workshop Manual, both drivers and passengers side of the 80inch are the same, but there are variations between the different 80 inch models. It is only on the 86inch on wards where they distinguish between the drivers side and the passengers side springs





Our springs should actually be set to 4 inches (102mm). Note the typo for the 52 / 53 model 80inch at 4.39inches or 102.5mm???
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/297.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p5W8Rgf2j)







https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/298.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p88MITO7j)






Resetting spring leaves before and after, - chalk line before
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/299.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p5HF5jVKj)








Repairing loose clamp, I finished up making a new clamp but used heat to assist the process.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/300.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p7u9gjAzj)





Springs are ready to install.







Erich

[Bundalene]

Can anyone give me some advice or point me in the direction of more information on Tracta joints (front CV's), my next job. They look simple enough and I think I have 2 good sets.




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/296.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p8Lntah5j)

[wrinklearthur]

Just pay particular notice to the splines for any signs of twist or fretting.
The Tracta Joints themselves don't give much trouble.

[JDNSW]

As Arthur says - the joints themselves give little trouble, provided they run in oil and the stub axle is properly aligned.

John

[Bundalene]

Thanks Arthur and John, I did read somewhere about using a dial indicator to set up the alignment.

We have a box with a number of tracta joints, with several actually broken in 2 pieces and some others with a bad wear and huge burr, no doubt from lack of lubrication. Probably the same reason why the bronze bush wears out.





Erich

[Bundalene]

I haven't really shown these pics. This is the Series1 we are restoring, all matching numbers chassis, engine, firewall plate and both diff housings.




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/169.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p33BsEnQj)


The engine will be a challenge.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/170.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p31FXSeTj)



Made some good progress today, completing the front axle assembly, It went like clockwork, only have to add the brake plate when I complete these. I had issues with the left hub oil seal, these sit very shallow into the hub and I am worried it may pop out,




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/171.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pbRhznSDj)



Put on some old wheels and tyres to be able to move it under the chassis

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/172.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p7oig1l8j)



I used a good quality gasket sealant instead of actual gaskets.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/173.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p7OXS2MKj)



Also very tempted to do away with these locking tabs and use loktite or thread locker. any thoughts?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/142.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p7zL6acpj)



Erich

[crackers]

Wowsers mate, that's a special build. Keep us salivating please

[wrinklearthur]

I would use Loctite on the Defender and locking tabs on the series one. Only because that's the way their builders did it.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/142.jpg
.

[crackers]

Something satisfying about using locking tabs.
Locktite just equals sticky fingers.

[flyinglandrover]

Why not use both? Loctite for efficiency and locking tabs for looks

[Bundalene]

We made a bit of progress today, considering I was out all morning.

First job was to mount the front springs to the housing. I used a dye trolley and flipped all upside down to make things easy. I turned up new spring center bolts, each of the 4 on this car were turned to a different size - to suit the recessed hole in the housing.




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/118.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pagRc0Jvj)



Next - sort out U bolts and bottom plates, these are all used and were cleaned in a molasses bath a while back


Eenie Meenie Miney Mo, which do I chose????
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/119.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p5q0GKbdj)




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/120.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/hl3kXCoNj)







I figured it out, the inner right U bolt is a bit tricky, being longer than the others and flat on the top





All bolted up, next mounted onto the chassis

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/121.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/paxDETc0j)






I also installed a housing onto the rear to give us a rolling chassis. I will have to sort the brakes front and rear and rear axles. I need to get a molasses bath going again.




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/122.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p7C17msVj)







Firewall plonked onto the chassis for a feel good thing. All the paint on this project is that which the vehicle came out with.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/123.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p3n1GAXwj)







Notes when dismantling are invaluable!!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/124.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p5mjAGRkj)






Erich

[Bundalene]

Bump stops, (body dampers) I am confused.

These are the bump stops which came off this vehicle, a 1951 Land Rover 80 inch. They appear to be the same. When I checked the parts book for 1948 to 1951, it lists a different part number for front and back, 239718 for the front and 219583 for the back. The 1953 parts book shows these front and rear.




I think these are 239718's.




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/90.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/hl1x8hrTj)



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/91.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pae7bmkXj)




I checked a 1950 model and a 1957 model and the bump stops appear to be as for the pic below.



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/92.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p3Xcdaedj)



Either way I need one replacement.

Any thoughts ?

[JDNSW]

I would guess (and it is no more than that) that the pointy ones are correct for 1951, but there are a couple of points to bear in mind -

1. The bump stops may have been changed at some point in its life (fairly unlikely)

2. Landrovers, particularly early ones, quite frequently were delivered with parts that differ from those listed in the parts book, whether due to supply issues, customer request or just "serendipity".

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

JD is correct. The pointy ones are for a 1951, but are impossible to acquire new. You usually only find the metal backing plate still on and it's why so many have the later flat top type these days.

[Bundalene]

I got a molasses bath going again today, probably still a bit cold. I used about 6:1 water to molasses. The tub is a bit shy of 1.2m x .6m



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/94.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p8qnEIuWj)





We cleaned up a pair of brake backing plates and fittings, steering rods and clamps and put them in the brew. See what happens in about a week.




Part of a few car trailers full of bits we brought back from Mudgee. These were literally half buried .
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/95.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p8JqifCkj)



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/96.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p59FQkCmj)




3 steering rods from an 80inch. The only drag link i have which isn't bent
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/97.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p5TVICyXj)






While dis-assembling steering rods, I noted 2 different steering rods, some with a single split and some with 2 splits. Also the clamps are varied, I came across 3 types, some very simple type with a slot, some with a small bolt (1/4 BSF) and some with a 5/16 UNF bolt) These could be a later replacement as they appeared newer.




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/98.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/hlkAkaBaj)



The tubes are all the same size, some further from the camera
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/99.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p5rbOi7Zj)



I have no idea which came from the vehicle I am restoring







Erich

[crackers]

Wasn't there some discussion recently about two different types of steering arms, one with a clamp and one with 'something I can't remember at the moment'?

[crackers]

I'm definitely interested in anything to do with molasses baths as I've just bought some molasses ready to set up my own. Your mix seems a bit thicker than most I've read about (not judging coz I don't know nuf to).

[russellrovers]

Bump stops, (body dampers) I am confused.

These are the bump stops which came off this vehicle, a 1951 Land Rover 80 inch. They appear to be the same. When I checked the parts book for 1948 to 1951, it lists a different part number for front and back, 239718 for the front and 219583 for the back. The 1953 parts book shows these front and rear.




I think these are 239718's.




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/90.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/hl1x8hrTj)



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/91.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pae7bmkXj)




I checked a 1950 model and a 1957 model and the bump stops appear to be as for the pic below.



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/92.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p3Xcdaedj)



Either way I need one replacement.

Any thoughts ? i have one here jim

[Bundalene]

i have one here jim

Thanks Jim, I have an incomplete 53 model 80 inch, with 2 broken mounts and 2 good ones. I will steal one from there. I was mainly curious which type of mounts belonged to the 51 model.



Thanks again Erich

[Bundalene]

I'm definitely interested in anything to do with molasses baths as I've just bought some molasses ready to set up my own. Your mix seems a bit thicker than most I've read about (not judging coz I don't know nuf to).

I bought a 20 litre bucket and filled the tub to about 17cm. I have used a weaker solution in the past - about 10:1 and this works fine but I am advised the stronger the solution - up to 4:1 and the warmer the temperature, the quicker the results.


It is that I don't have any physically large parts at this stage. I may dilute it a bit later. Be mindful that if or should I say when the molasses goes off it gets a strong odour. I put this well away from the house this time.


There is a fair bit written on this Forum about the process. I think it is brilliant.
Erich

[digger]

I bought a 20 litre bucket and filled the tub to about 17cm. I have used a weaker solution in the past - about 10:1 and this works fine but I am advised the stronger the solution - up to 4:1 and the warmer the temperature, the quicker the results.


It is that I don't have any physically large parts at this stage. I may dilute it a bit later. Be mindful that if or should I say when the molasses goes off it gets a strong odour. I put this well away from the house this time.


There is a fair bit written on this Forum about the process. I think it is brilliant.
Erich

and the best bit is if you have horses theyll lick the parts clean for ya!!!

--- someone did a chassis in molasses, was that you Erich?

[wrinklearthur]

and the best bit is if you have horses theyll lick the parts clean for ya!!!

I used to have goats, but they might swallow the part as well.
.

[digger]

I used to have goats, but they might swallow the part as well.
.

Swallow a chassis?? How big are your goats???😀😀

[Bundalene]

Yes Digger, that was this one we are restoring now. The reason for the molasses bath for the chassis was to get rid of all rust but keep the remaining original paint.





Erich

[Redback]

Hey Erich, seems to back on track again, well for now, until you're back to flittering around the country side again.

Just a question about the rust and the use of molasses, I have heard cider vinegar does the same thing, the reason I ask is I'm restoring an old bike, and need to clean the rust from inside the tank, any idea which would work better.

Hi Sheila:spudnikwaving:

[Bundalene]

Hi Baz, we are here for a short time and then off again, so I am trying to get a bit done.

You are welcome to bring it out and drop it into the tank, depending how high it is. Presently I have about 25cm cover (I have raised the level and diluted it a bit this morning. Only problem we are away in about 2 weeks. Not sure how it would work on the inside of a tank. Have a word with Ron Beckett, I recall he has done some molasses with fuel tanks.

What ever process you use, it will need priming almost straight away.




Erich

[Bundalene]

Brake reservoirs.

I have a pin hole in ours, so I tidied it up and silver soldered it with MAP gas. Oxy would have been much better as you can concentrate the heat to a point, but I don't have Oxy. I had to be careful not to run the solder out of the existing joints (that is if they are soldered). I wrapped a water soaked rag around the base of the container just in case. Also because I was limiting the heat, I couldn't get that nice silver solder run.

I then filled the reservoir with metho to test it - all good.

I was looking through my spares and found an early reservoir which bolts back on the firewall I assume.




pic showing early and later. The early one has a longer live to the master cylinder.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/71.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pbTdU7ojj)



Air cleaners. Just sorting out what I have and what I need - all good in this area I think.



This will go into the molasses tank after Christmas.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/72.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/hlYDtM0uj)





These are 3 different air cleaners, not sure which model the other 2 belong to but I think they are all Series 1
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/73.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p7TzZvBKj)





Erich

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Erich

The oil bath on the left of screen is correct. The centre one is for an 86/107/88/109 S1

I'm not sure about the one on the right of screen it seems far too tall for a Land Rover one. Or at least too tall for a Series 1.

Diana

[grey_ghost]

Hi Erich,

I believe that the air filter on the far right is for a Series II or IIa..

I have 2 x Series II's - and it looks identical to the air filters that I have.

Cheers,
The Grey Ghost

[JayBee75]

Erich
far right is 2/2a

agree with the Ghost!

[Fluids]

The one on the right looks like the one out of my old early series III.

[Bundalene]

Hey Erich, seems to back on track again, well for now, until you're back to flittering around the country side again.

Just a question about the rust and the use of molasses, I have heard cider vinegar does the same thing, the reason I ask is I'm restoring an old bike, and need to clean the rust from inside the tank, any idea which would work better.

Hi Sheila:spudnikwaving:


Hi Baz...and Kerry & Ness... Been a while since we caught up...

Not much help with the above question but Cider Vinegar HAS to smell much nicer than Molasses.... Thank goodness he has the molasses bath up in the back paddock...but the smell seems to still get onto his clothes and it's not very nice!

Hope all is well with you lot, and we can have a get together soon.

Cheers to you all,

Sheila:)

(Sorry I have diverted off the Series Thread....)

[Bundalene]

The molasses tank is doing its job, from this

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/11/997.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p3R1Hd4qj)







A bit of a clean and dismantle

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/11/998.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p5JIjLzcj)



3 days in the tank with a clean with a hard bristle nylon brush, to this, a few more days and it will be done

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/11/999.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p5fn6IAzj)






If the process is working, you can see the imprint of the soaking parts on the surface of the tank

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/11/1000.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/hlhM3Ga7j)




Today we installed the brake master and pedals. I have a few issues to work around, one is making a spring for the stop light switch, I must do some reading or any hints will be welcomed. This is an extremely light spring. I am reluctant to pinch this off another vehicle I have, even though it is a non goer.

Also the olive shaped bush which from the clutch chassis mount is very sloppy and worn. I am considering sleeving this although there is not much to play with.




Firewall mount and clutch pedal chassis mount (with the bush removed) off to the molasses bath all dis-assembled

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/11/1001.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pawTk6Gnj)






Erich

[Bundalene]

Steering Box early cast iron / steer type

Part of my goal was to understand the individual operation of the vehicle. The steering box on this vehicle is a simple worm drive box with a steel screw and a bronze worm. This end of the box is in very good order, no undue movement, and the output bush is in good order. In theory a worm drive will not transmit any movement from output to input, so if you hit sat a rock the steering shouldn't spin.







https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/11/622.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p8VrLMM8j)








https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/11/623.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p597OTfmj)









https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/11/624.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p5PMKM0hj)









This steering box was full of water, right up to the steering wheel, when I removed it from the vehicle late last year. It has been soaking in Penetrene ever since.


The way I see it:

The top end below the steering wheel has a pair of bearings, one appears to be a fixed ball race and the other is a thrust - a row of balls recessed into the outer collar and running on the shaft. This is the only fixing of the steering column and quite a weak link if you ask me. This appears to be the only lateral support for the steering shaft, so if you do hit a rock, the shaft will want to move in an upward direction, putting a lot of pressure on this small bearing.

Also it appears that the cable to the horn and dipper switch twists one way when turning the wheel in one direction and back the other next time.



I have 3 issues with this box, which I can hopefully overcome.

1 The tube for the cable is jammed, I will work on this
2 The collar supporting the thrust balls which is pinned to the steering box housing is worn, I can either make a new one or work out another arrangement, but I would like it to look the same from the outside.
3 Not sure of bearing and seals, but hopefully there will be generic parts available.

I will have a go at fixing this one first, I do have other such steering boxes, still in vehicles, but they are probably in a similar condition.

Please excuse me as I haven't read up up on these and will do more research, but any suggestions will be welcome






Worn collar and bearing support
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/11/625.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pa8wWXOuj)




We will be away for the next 5 and a bit weeks




Erich

[crackers]

Keep sorting it Erich, I'm certain to need to do the same thing to Wombat and this is better than a restoration manual.