What do you reckon ?

[NOZ]

Is it worth my while to buy a tow bar recover piont, or just use the tow bar pin as a recovery point :?:

[hiline]

i use the pin on mine

[VladTepes]

Interesting question - I saw Outback Ideas' "Bush Hook" which is probably what you are talking about (or similar)
http://www.4b.com.au/BushHook.gif
http://www.4b.com.au/handy_stuff.htm



I was wondering the same thing.

[NOZ]

pin doesnt bend ?

[Tyrepower]

I use the pin, however I've heard stories of the pin being bent during recovery. If this did happen a couple of pins is still cheaper than the hook.

[NOZ]

The recovery point is $80 from TJM & yes Vlad that is what I am looking at

[Phoenix]

it might be cheaper, but i'd rather one of the hook jobbies. I think arb has one as well.

[Greylandy]

If your snatch or tow strap fits the opening .. just use the pin. In cases where the strap is too thick I'd use a tongue with shackle.

[VladTepes]

Originally posted by NOZ
The recovery point is $80 from TJM & yes Vlad that is what I am looking at

Cheaper from the site I posted - $65 I think - look at bottom of the page.

As to using the pin, surely if it bends it wouldn't be possible (or at least easy) to remove the pin from the hitch. :?:

[NOZ]

I get 10% off from TJM =$72 and no postage and I can pick it up tomorrow, the difference isnt worth the wait.

I am an impatient bugger ( put it together first then read the instructions )
if you know what i mean.

But thanks for the link Vlad style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[Tyrepower]

Originally posted by VladTepes+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(VladTepes)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-NOZ
The recovery point is $80 from TJM & yes Vlad that is what I am looking at

Cheaper from the site I posted - $65 I think - look at bottom of the page.

As to using the pin, surely if it bends it wouldn't be possible (or at least easy) to remove the pin from the hitch. :?:[/b][/quote]
From what I read that's the supposed problem with using the pin. The way I see it, it's a great idea. However you have to find room for it in amongst all the other things that rattle. Try the heavy duty hooks that bolt to the chassis if your worried about the pin.

[Rovernaut]

I don't want to pinch this thread , but what do you use on the front?

[Tyrepower]

Heavy duty hooks that bolt to the chassis!!!!!!!

[Phoenix]

I've got a shackle mounting bracket on the front of my chassis rail / bullbar

[Yabbie]

I recently went to my local ARB bloke at Gosford and tried to order the same hitch your asking about. He told me "not to waste my money" his words. He then pointed out a key reason in that the pin is made to withstand up to 4000kgs for towing. Surely you dont own a LR that heavy so use the PIN!!

Spend the money on a carton and the rest on some fuel to get away style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[NOZ]

I have a ARB winch bar and it har 2 eyelets that you can use as recovery pionts. Or use my winch

[NOZ]

For towing not recovery, what if you snatch strap doesnt fit into the tow bar ? Then you cant use the pin.

I just dont like the fact that you are pulling on the middle of the pin, I think it may bend to the pointthat i may not be able to get the tounge back in and then how do I get my trailer home ? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Phoenix]

Thing is you can break a pin with only a 4000kg breaking strain. the forces involved in recovering a 2000kg + vehicle, with the added friction of whatever you are stuck in (say axle deep mud) and you are getting pretty close.

I have heard of people bending pins and having to cut snatch straps off.

[Ace]

I think a permanent recovery hook on the rear is a better way to go, for one they are lighter and two they dont take up even more room in the vehicle. I havent had to use mine yet, but the pin will do for now. And on the front i have the TJM Winch bar which has recovery eyelets in line with each chassis rail. A rated recovery hook is only around $20, i am sure there is some on the rear to mount it. Matt

[Tyrepower]

Originally posted by Ace
I think a permanent recovery hook on the rear is a better way to go, for one they are lighter and two they dont take up even more room in the vehicle. I havent had to use mine yet, but the pin will do for now. And on the front i have the TJM Winch bar which has recovery eyelets in line with each chassis rail. A rated recovery hook is only around $20, i am sure there is some on the rear to mount it. Matt

And they are always in the right place and you don't have to go looking for them when needed in a hurry.

[Ace]

Originally posted by Tyrepower+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrepower)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Ace
I think a permanent recovery hook on the rear is a better way to go, for one they are lighter and two they dont take up even more room in the vehicle. I havent had to use mine yet, but the pin will do for now. And on the front i have the TJM Winch bar which has recovery eyelets in line with each chassis rail. A rated recovery hook is only around $20, i am sure there is some on the rear to mount it. Matt

And they are always in the right place and you don't have to go looking for them when needed in a hurry.[/b][/quote]

That to, you have enough to rumage around in the back of the vehicle for, without adding a recovery hook to that. Matt

[NOZ]

Where on the back can you mount a permanent hook ? It looks to me that
you would have to put it too far under the car, on a 96 Disco anyway

[Ace]

Originally posted by NOZ
Where on the back can you mount a permanent hook ? It looks to me that
you would have to put it too far under the car, on a 96 Disco anyway

I am sure there is a spot on the tow bar. I havent done it yet, but i to would be interested to know. I assume it can be done. Matt

[NOZ]

The guys at Opposite Lock told me it couldnt be done hense the reason I am looking for another option.

100 posts wahoo

[Ace]

Originally posted by NOZ
The guys at Opposite Lock told me it couldnt be done hense the reason I am looking for another option.

100 posts wahoo

In that case, go for the hitch receiver one, at least you know it is rated. If i had one i would leave it in the tow bar on 4wd trips as i dont have a camper, that removes the unpacking thing. Matt

[Redback]

Jason Wrote;
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Spend the money on a carton and the rest on some fuel to get away [/b][/quote]

If you have the diesel it would be 3 cartons style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

Baz.

[VladTepes]

If ypu have a look in my gallery there's a pic of my home-made (not by me) tow bar that I have bolted a recovery hook to.

Problem is I now have a nice ARB Hayman Reese style tow bar so the bush hook arrangement will probably suit me better for that.

At least its central coz if I mounted it to the chassis on one side it would always be the wrong side style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[Ace]

Originally posted by Redback
Jason Wrote;
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Spend the money on a carton and the rest on some fuel to get away

If you have the diesel it would be 3 cartons style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

Baz.[/b][/quote]

Yep three cartons and a trip around OZ. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif Matt

[VladTepes]

Originally posted by NOZ
I have a ARB winch bar and it har 2 eyelets that you can use as recovery pionts. Or use my winch

NO NO NO <span style="color:red">NOT </span>for recovery. They'll break and a winch cable / snatch strap breaking and recoiling rapidly is NOT good.


Originally posted by NOZ (in his following post)
[b]For towing not recovery...

I hope you were referring to the arb 'eyelets' here.

[Ace]

Originally posted by VladTepes+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(VladTepes)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-NOZ
I have a ARB winch bar and it har 2 eyelets that you can use as recovery pionts. Or use my winch

NO NO NO <span style="color:red">NOT </span>for recovery. They'll break and a winch cable / snatch strap breaking and recoiling rapidly is NOT good.


Originally posted by NOZ (in his following post)
For towing not recovery...

I hope you were referring to the arb 'eyelets' here.[/quote]

Thanks Vlad. I assume the same can be said regarding the eyelets on the TJM Bar aswell. Matt

[harry]

8) ok you guys how strong is the pin that holds the goose neck in?
i don't think its worth a piece of s h i t,
the drawbar hook looks like a good idea,
but a rated shackle through your tow ball hole will do the same job.
as for the pin, i replaced mine with an aircraft bolt that would tow the queen mary up the bloody yarra, and as an added deterrent to those that want to spoil our day by knocking the thing off, its an internal wrenching bolt, with a lock nut, that means he's gotta have a bloody big allen key.
as for the pin, i don't think that the snatch strap with a lump of steel cares much about who it draws blood from on a track four hours from the nearest medical attention, which is also in an area known for its lack of mobile phone coverage, so the chopper ain't coming.

[Ace]

Originally posted by harry
8) ok you guys how strong is the pin that holds the goose neck in?
i don't think its worth a piece of s h i t,
the drawbar hook looks like a good idea,
but a rated shackle through your tow ball hole will do the same job.
as for the pin, i replaced mine with an aircraft bolt that would tow the queen mary up the bloody yarra, and as an added deterrent to those that want to spoil our day by knocking the thing off, its an internal wrenching bolt, with a lock nut, that means he's gotta have a bloody big allen key.
as for the pin, i don't think that the snatch strap with a lump of steel cares much about who it draws blood from on a track four hours from the nearest medical attention, which is also in an area known for its lack of mobile phone coverage, so the chopper ain't coming.

Bloody good idea Harry. When you go off road, take a shifter to take the ball off, or if you arent taking the camper, leave the tow ball in the back of the car. Matt

[harry]

8) i won't keep a shifter i my tool box, or let an apprentice keep one, but i keep a big one in the truck.
i guess if your really doig it in the bush you won't have the goose neck fitted, like inc and i jerked ours when we went bush, 'cause they ruin the departure angle, but real easy to refit when needed

[NOZ]

So I am starting to get confused here, The eyelets on the ARB bull bar are only for towing ? Is that what you are saying ?

[Ace]

Originally posted by harry
8) i won't keep a shifter i my tool box, or let an apprentice keep one, but i keep a big one in the truck.
i guess if your really doig it in the bush you won't have the goose neck fitted, like inc and i jerked ours when we went bush, 'cause they ruin the departure angle, but real easy to refit when needed

Thats the only down side.

NOZ- yes thats what they are saying. I dont see the point of putting them on a wich bar when the cant take the full load of recovery. There will be somewhere under neath on a chassis rail where you can put a recovery hook. Put a hook on each rail, then you can hook up a drag chain, or run the winch cable through a block at the tree and back to the car to half the load on the winch. Matt

[NOZ]

Again I was told from the guys at Opposite lock the these Eyelets are fine for recovery, even more so if i was to use 2 rated D shackles and combine the the two with a tree protector this would help ease the load.

If the bar has a 8000lb winch, doesnt that mean that snatching off the bar shouldnt be a hassle ?

[Ace]

Originally posted by NOZ
Again I was told from the guys at Opposite lock the these Eyelets are fine for recovery, even more so if i was to use 2 rated D shackles and combine the the two with a tree protector this would help ease the load.

If the bar has a 8000lb winch, doesnt that mean that snatching off the bar shouldnt be a hassle ?

Well, thats what i thought, because me TJM bar has the eyelets aswell, and they look pretty solid to me. I allways thought they were for recovery.

If you are talking about using the tree protector to run the cable on, thats not the way. Wrap the tree protector around the tree, join the two ends after wrapping around the tree with d-shackle. If you want to half the load, instead of running the winch cable to staight to the shackle on the tree protector, hook a snatch block to the shackle, and run the cable around the wheel in the block and back to the second shacke on the recovery point, using two recovery points would be safer as i would assume using the one RP in this way would double the load on it, correct me if im wrong. Matt

[NOZ]

No no I understand the tree protector concept, I was trying to explain that if you put one D shackle in each hole and had each end of the tree protector in the D shackles then you are effectivley joining thenm together hense less load. This would also help if you were recoverying from a slight angle, so you woudnt bend them.

But the seed of doubt has been placed and I am looking in my ARB catalogue to try and seek out the facts.

I think a phone call to ARB might be the go style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[NOZ]

The cataloge says they are heavy duty towing points.........

Has anyone got a recovery hook on the front of there Disco ???

[Ace]

Originally posted by NOZ
No no I understand the tree protector concept, I was trying to explain that if you put one D shackle in each hole and had each end of the tree protector in the D shackles then you are effectivley joining thenm together hense less load. This would also help if you were recoverying from a slight angle, so you woudnt bend them.

But the seed of doubt has been placed and I am looking in my ARB catalogue to try and seek out the facts.

I think a phone call to ARB might be the go style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

Oh, i understand now.

RE your last post- I am not sure i have one but havent gotten underneath to find a spot to put it yet. I would be interested to find out where people have mounted them on series one discos. I know people have fitted them to the two posts in the centre of the bullbar, but they have the flat posts, not round like on mine. Mine. Matt

[hiline]

i have 2 hooks mounted on my tjm winch bar

i'll take a pic tomorrow to show you if you like ??

both are rated hooks

[NOZ]

That would be great thanks

[hiline]

no probs noz style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[DEFENDERZOOK]

as for the issue of the pin bending in the hitch receiver....

drill the hole out a bit bigger (not too much) and get a thicker pin.

easiest way i can see....but not a hardened bolt as it will be too brittle.

[hiline]

here you go noz

i have 1 each side of bar
http://www.aulro.com/albums/album119/hook.sized.jpg

check out the tread on the tyre , over 100,000k's and still going


http://www.aulro.com/albums/album119/hook2.sized.jpg

[NOZ]

Well that solves that problem, thanks Hiline, But you know I went out to TJM today and they told me the same as opposite lock ( the eyelets are ok for recovery )

thanks again style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[Tyrepower]

Just be careful. Use damping blankets ect, and stand well clear if possible.

[NOZ]

Yep sure will, I bought a large recovery kit with all the bits.

[Rat]

8O I would only use the pin in a light recovery situation. The pin may be rated at 4000kg BUT the tongue, when it is pulling 4000kg trailer is evenly pulling on the pin as it is a close fit in the receiver, whereas the snatch strap only pulls on the centre of the pin and it may bend. It may not snap, but it would be an a**hole to get out bent. As you all may know, a Land Rover also cannot accelerate with a trailer to the same slingshot forces as a snatch recovery situation, so the pin is not under the same loads. No 4wd shop should recommend using the pin in high stress recovery situations. Using one of those tongue type recovery points is OK because it fits tighly into the receiver and cannot shear off the pin.
:!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:

[Ace]

Originally posted by Rat
8O I would only use the pin in a light recovery situation. The pin may be rated at 4000kg BUT the tongue, when it is pulling 4000kg trailer is evenly pulling on the pin as it is a close fit in the receiver, whereas the snatch strap only pulls on the centre of the pin and it may bend. It may not snap, but it would be an a**hole to get out bent. As you all may know, a Land Rover also cannot accelerate with a trailer to the same slingshot forces as a snatch recovery situation, so the pin is not under the same loads. No 4wd shop should recommend using the pin in high stress recovery situations. Using one of those tongue type recovery points is OK because it fits tighly into the receiver and cannot shear off the pin.
:!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:


Maybe someone should pass this onto 4wd Monthly. 8O They are allways saying to use the pin, with no mention at all about load forces. But i do agree with you rat. Matt

[NOZ]

Well TJM told me to just use the pin, so I bought a spare for now, but I think I will go back next week and get a tongue type.

Its amazing all the different resonses you can get about the same question and these guys are the experts :?

[hiline]

Originally posted by NOZ
Well TJM told me to just use the pin, so I bought a spare for now, but I think I will go back next week and get a tongue type.

Its amazing all the different resonses you can get about the same question and these guys are the experts :?

only in the books

we the drivers are the experts !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

just ask us :wink: :wink:

[DEFENDERZOOK]

IMHO i have never seen any of the books go 4wding.

so how do they know what they are talking about?

[Ace]

Originally posted by NOZ
Well TJM told me to just use the pin, so I bought a spare for now, but I think I will go back next week and get a tongue type.

Its amazing all the different resonses you can get about the same question and these guys are the experts :?

Its like ringing a call centre. If you rang 6 times, each time you would get a different answer. Matt

[Tyrepower]

Sometimes it's not so much about being wrong or right, but a differance of opinion. Even reading this thread you get different ideas. It's up to you to make the informed opinion and go with what suits you. What works for me may not necessarily be right for you. I don't think you will have a pin failure and end up killing yourself however you may end up bending one and have difficulty in removing it. If you see this as a drama go the custom built job. Just take care with what ever option you choose.
Cheers Tyrepower

[Ace]

Originally posted by Tyrepower
Sometimes it's not so much about being wrong or right, but a differance of opinion. Even reading this thread you get different ideas. It's up to you to make the informed opinion and go with what suits you. What works for me may not necessarily be right for you. I don't think you will have a pin failure and end up killing yourself however you may end up bending one and have difficulty in removing it. If you see this as a drama go the custom built job. Just take care with what ever option you choose.
Cheers Tyrepower

TP is right. The main thing we have to take into consideration when working things like this out is safety. Working with things under heavy load leave alot of room room for accidents. Especially when suss recovery points are used. Matt

[D110V8D]

It's always best to be safe but sometimes you get caught out. Mate of mine bought a new Defender and was so keen to go off road he put her in low range (not diff lock) and drove straight into a bog. neadless to say she was stuck and he had to walk a couple k back to camp. We got a F250 to pull him out by the hernia handles (Grab handles on the back of most Defenders at the rear X member) with a ratchet strap. Now dont get me wrong, I know this is not good recovery technique but it worked at the time. These Hernia handles are in no way a suitable recovery point and I certainly dont recomend anyone use them but at the time the vehicle wasn't equpped with other recovery points (there was no alternative) and it had to be removed from the bog. Would they take the strain twice in a row? I have no idea. It was a once in a lifetime shot. Point is, sure things are rated and warnings are issued etc but generally companies give themselves a safety gap where they can say do what you have to do (within reason) to get out but we're not responsible if the thing breaks. and who could blame them?

Cheers

Mick

whos shout is it? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[VladTepes]

NOZ (and others) There are a few 'recovery point' threads on here discussing the bullbar issues, do a search and you'll find 'em in either the technical or general forums.

Also my thread 'Outback Ideas Recovery Points' shows the solution I have used.

Despite several communications with ARB I could NOT get a definitive written answer to say that the 'recovery eyes' are safe for snatch recovery. If you look at the size of them (ie very weak, they bend with little provocation) and compare it with the proper 'recovery hooks' or Outback Ideas or Expedition Exchnage points that are mentioned on the threads, you'll see the obvious difference.