Dual Voltage Perenties. Do you use the 24V side?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

In the process of setting up 48-852 am wondering about other uses of the 24V radio system.

On my SIII FFR I have an additional 12V dist box for accessories which means the 24V system only gets used for the green radios, which hardly ever get turned on. A waste of the 24V system and the batteries.

On this vehicle I'm considering getting a larger but now 12V-24V fridge but am wondering what others use their FFR/RFSV 24V system for?

[Mick_Marsh]

I have a 2000W pure sine wave inverter and a 24/12V DC/DC converter on mine.
I use it as the second battery when camping.

If your going to remove yours, I'd be interested in the generator.

[Blknight.aus]

driving inverters,fridges, lighting rradios and welding with.

[brad56]

In the process of setting up 48-852 am wondering about other uses of the 24V radio system.

On my SIII FFR I have an additional 12V dist box for accessories which means the 24V system only gets used for the green radios, which hardly ever get turned on. A waste of the 24V system and the batteries.

On this vehicle I'm considering getting a larger but now 12V-24V fridge but am wondering what others use their FFR/RFSV 24V system for?



Hi lotz-a- lands I am using my 24 volt system to run a hydrogen generator which I purchased from company in Western Australia but I am only using 2 batteries to give me 24 volts and I have fitted the gas generator on the left hand side were the other set of batteries where fitted, I have removed the electrical switch board that was fitted to the vehicle and draw power from the batteries, using the 24 volt alternator to charge the batteries, it has more than enough capacity to handle the requirements o the gas Generator .
That's one option for you .
Take care have a safe and merry Christmas

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi lotz-a- lands I am using my 24 volt system to run a hydrogen generator which I purchased from company in Western Australia but I am only using 2 batteries to give me 24 volts and I have fitted the gas generator on the left hand side were the other set of batteries where fitted, I have removed the electrical switch board that was fitted to the vehicle and draw power from the batteries, using the 24 volt alternator to charge the batteries, it has more than enough capacity to handle the requirements o the gas Generator .
That's one option for you .
Take care have a safe and merry ChristmasAre you insufflating the hydrogen over the diesel?

[Barefoot Dave]

Diana, RFSV runs dual 12v with an isolator.
Only FFR is 24v on the radio side.

[303gunner]

Are you insufflating the hydrogen over the diesel?
Pass me the Thesaurus please. Oh, I see, it's a medical term for blowing something into a body cavity. I'll keep that handy for another time. :wasntme:


insufflating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insufflation_(medicine))


"In the 18th century, the Tobacco Smoke Enema, an insufflation of tobacco smoke into the rectum, was a common method of reviving drowning victims." WHO WAS THE BRIGHT SPARK WHO THOUGHT THIS MIGHT WORK?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Pass me the Thesaurus please. Oh, I see, it's a medical term for blowing something into a body cavity. I'll keep that handy for another time. :wasntme:


insufflating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insufflation_(medicine))Is it not also used in automotive terminology when you add LPG/CNG/Hydrogen over diesel fuel (usually about 25%:75%) to create a cleaner more efficient burning engine? (Otherwise called Diesel-Gas)

BTW: You should be using a dictionary or encyclopaedia, not a thesaurus! :D

[303gunner]

I'd never heard the term before (and I'm sorry I looked it up :(), but the addition of another fuel source to the diesel combustion cycle is common, either as a gas as you mention, or as a liquid additive to the diesel (ie Diesahol fuel, a blend of Diesel and Ethanol has been used in Sydney Buses to reduce emissions and enhance economy).


I think it has been shown conclusively that the energy required to generate the Hydrogen far exceeds the energy created in the more efficient burn, but it does have advantages in reducing emissions and oil contamination.

[isuzutoo-eh]

I use my 24V system to run my fridge and UHF radio directly, and have a $99 24v/12v step down from Jaycar to run my cig and USB adapter. Do make sure you fit a low voltage protection circuit, such as the Baintech one, on each circuit, as, for example, the 24/12 reducer will happily step down to 12v with an input of just 18v, which will effectively damage a deep cycle battery.
Ask me how I know, $450 of batteries later :(

[DBT]

BTW: You should be using a dictionary or encyclopaedia, not a thesaurus! :D

Many years ago, my wife and I were having this very conversation, on the usages of a Dictionary vs a Thesaurus. At one point one of us exclaimed "we dont even own a thesaurus!"

The conversation moved on, till a minute or so later, one of our twin toddlers approached, holding up a toy dinasour.

"Mum! Dad! We *DO* have The 'Saurus!

... I guess you had to be there. :)

From that day on, that toy was referred to as "Thesaurus".

[DBT]

Aaanyway ... I currently use my 24v system to power the rear FFR working lights and part of the vehicle security system. Both could easily run off 12v.

So mine is waaay under-utilised.

Giving serious thought to pulling the 24v generator and power box and going with a Traxide 12v multi battery solution.

Reluctant to mess with the OE FFR spec. But in all honesty I dont need it.

Whats the spec of the 12v alternator? Would it handle 2 of the deep cycles ok?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

...
I think it has been shown conclusively that the energy required to generate the Hydrogen far exceeds the energy created in the more efficient burn, but it does have advantages in reducing emissions and oil contamination.Two things come to mind, the primary fuel source for a hydrogen cracker/generator is water which is far cheaper than LPG and when you already have an excess of 24V power you are utilising an available excess resource to make the engine more efficient.

On the other hand we don't know what Brad 56 is using his for.

People with diesel gas or diesel liquid injection LPG are reporting that they are a gear better off on hills and the cost/km drops. Don't know if that remains the same with the excise going onto LPG

[DBT]

The primary fuel source for a hydrogen cracker/generator is water which is far cheaper than LPG and when you already have an excess of 24V power

While the water is technically a fuel "source", its not what the cracker is running on.

Does the 24v generator have a clutch to unload the engine when charge is not needed?

Or is it loading all the time? If so where does the excess energy go so as not to cook the batteries? (other than a hydrogen cracker, which some of us don't have) :(

Now if we had a solar panel on the roof powering the cracker (via the 24v system), then it would all start to make sense! :)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

We're still waiting for confirmation of the use of the hydrogen generator.

THe CAV-Lucas 28V alternator does not have a clutch, but I'v always thought it would be a good idea. The usual practice is to remove the belt when the 24V system was not needed.

Yes they do cook batteries.

[DBT]

THe CAV-Lucas 28V alternator does not have a clutch, but I'v always thought it would be a good idea. The usual practice is to remove the belt when the 24V system was not needed.

Yes they do cook batteries.

Bugger.

Guessing my 100mA or so of constant draw won't be making much difference.

Bugger.

[isuzurover]

...when you already have an excess of 24V power you are utilising an available excess resource ...



you are starting to sound like a free energy nutter Diana. You don't get something for nothing.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

you are starting to sound like a free energy nutter Diana. You don't get something for nothing.I was going to fit a perpetual motion engine, but was worried the noise of it spinning would keep me up at night! :wasntme:

I can see where that would come from, however LPG over diesel has more complete burning of the fuel and when you look at their exhaust pipes they are usually grey rather than black from most diesel exhaust pipes. So if there is a more complete burn of the fuel, it is by definition more efficient. (Not necessarily cheaper)

The LPG is not a free input and the cost of the installation is significant. Hydrogen is also not a free input, but if the cracking/fuel cell technology requires and electrical input and you already have an electrical supply with surplus output (or you could consider it a parasitic load) why not use some of it to make your fuel burn more efficient/cleaner?

[isuzurover]

If you read the bit I quoted, it was the talk of "free" or "surplus" power from the 24V generator.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Yes I read your quote and while I talked of excess (x 2), which it is, I never mentioned free.

[isuzurover]

Excess (or surplus) implies "free"

Btw, the hydrogen / lpg / ng co-firing issue has been discussed at length on here and is best not repeated.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

In who's universe?

Just because you have an excess or surplus of something doesn't mean that you are going to give it away.

Look as surplus milk, it is turned into milk powder and the surplus of cream from the production of skim milk usually goes to secondary products like icecream base. (It is the actually the only reason that we have the Streets product "magnum" on the market.)

free and surplus are independant of each other.

[TK_Co]

Now, now kids, play nice 😃😃


Just catching the perentie bug.

? 1990 Perentie 6x6 Air Defence GS
?2013 Range Rover Sport

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Its OK TK

Ben and I frequently have robust discussions, there's no animosity!

Diana :)

[AndyG]

Why, are you married ?

[brad56]

Are you insufflating the hydrogen over the diesel?
Hi, yes I am injecting the hydrogen gas directly into the air intake at the air filter
Improves economy a has more power. But it is not as good as turbo charging I can do that t a later date.
More important things to do like power steering and break up grade.
Take care all
Brad

[brad56]

I'd never heard the term before (and I'm sorry I looked it up :(), but the addition of another fuel source to the diesel combustion cycle is common, either as a gas as you mention, or as a liquid additive to the diesel (ie Diesahol fuel, a blend of Diesel and Ethanol has been used in Sydney Buses to reduce emissions and enhance economy).


I think it has been shown conclusively that the energy required to generate the Hydrogen far exceeds the energy created in the more efficient burn, but it does have advantages in reducing emissions and oil contamination.

I think that most people forget that by adding hydrogen to the system helps make a quicker more flammable burn which helps burn some of that 70% of fuel that is blown out of the exhaust pipe un burned

[isuzurover]

... 70% of fuel that is blown out of the exhaust pipe un burned

This is the point where we know you don't know what you are talking about.

[DBT]

Sounds like confusion with combustion engine energy conversion efficiency.

Facts appear to be a bit mangled though.

Been trying to find some empirical research on H2O2 use in diesel engines. Very difficult with all the snake oil websites out there. :(

[Blknight.aus]

Hydrogen fumigation works
Using vehicle electrics to electorlise water into hydrogen and oxygen works.
Attempting the utilise the engine you are fumigating with the browns gas or just the hydrogen to power the "cracker" that is creating the gas to fumigate the engine doesn't.

It looks good on paper because all the individual sub parts work when viewed as an independant step.


Then you add entropy.

[DBT]

Attempting the utilise the engine you are fumigating with the browns gas or just the hydrogen to power the "cracker" that is creating the gas to fumigate the engine doesn't.

Is it that this size HHO generator cant produce enough product to feed the engine in real time?

Or just the whole net energy cost thing?

Or both?


Then you add entropy.

Sooo ... if i didn't care about it, it would work better? :cool:

Wait ... Where' my thesaurus? :confused:

[DBT]

I was going to fit a perpetual motion engine, but was worried the noise of it spinning would keep me up at night! :wasntme:


Just read this again.

If its making noise, you're doing it wrong.

Check the polariser alignment.

:angel:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Just read this again.

If its making noise, you're doing it wrong.

Check the polariser alignment.

:angel::D how many posts did that take, I was sure that Ben would come straight back.

Sometimes my attempts at humour go unnoticed. :BigCry:

[DBT]

:D how many posts did that take, I was sure that Ben would come straight back.

Sometimes my attempts at humour go unnoticed. :BigCry:

Us mere males take a bit longer to absorb matters of wit, is all.

:(

Nvm. My forum humour is generally ignored, which makes me try even harder. When i finally do get flamed ... well ... "Mission accomplished" :twisted:

[brad56]

This is the point where we know you don't know what you are talking about.
Hi all one thing I do know I have improved fuel economy to 9 lts per 100k which is better than 11 lts per 100k before the gas generator was fitted. but I must admit that the cost of the gas Generator was not cheap another benefit's has been that the engine runs a little quieter

[brad56]

Sounds like confusion with combustion engine energy conversion efficiency.

Facts appear to be a bit mangled though.

Been trying to find some empirical research on H2O2 use in diesel engines. Very difficult with all the snake oil websites out there. :(
Yes that's correct there is a lot of BS out there

[brad56]

This is the point where we know you don't know what you are talking about.
Most engine's are at best only 30% efficient in regards to output and the energy input e.g fuel so where dose that un burned fuel go ? ( I think it goes into the air as pollution)

[Mick_Marsh]

Most engine's are at best only 30% efficient in regards to output and the energy input e.g fuel so where dose that un burned fuel go ? ( I think it goes into the air as pollution)
I think you will find that missing fuel is burnt. It's just that the energy contained in that fuel has gone into heat, sound, windage and other frictional forces.


Sooo ... if i didn't care about it, it would work better? :cool:

Wait ... Where' my thesaurus? :confused:
I think the black one is on the money. Have a read of the second law of thermodynamics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics).

If I didn't care about day following night, would it stop?

[isuzutoo-eh]

Any other users of the 24V auxilliary system apart from hydrogen producers?

Plenty of accessories that cross over to the truck market run on either 12V or 24V:
fridge
UHF radio
Stereo?
aircon perhaps, for those without room under the bonnet due to turbo? Could the aircon unit fit in a battery bay? Oh wait, the majority of FFRs are soft top ahaha...
24V Oscillating fan...what is this the 70s?
QZO 8 Inch 24V CAR FAN Cooling Device Oscillating FAN Clip FOR Trucks | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/QZO-8-inch-24V-Car-Fan-Cooling-Device-Oscillating-Fan-Clip-for-Trucks-/151363438071?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item233df6c5f7)

Anyone found a good 24V air compressor? Plenty of options for those going EAS...
Modify cordless rattle guns etc to use the 24V supply?
driving lights?
work lights
air horns
electric winch-relocate spare to make room for a rear winch for the tuff trips?

pretty much anything that runs on 12V can be had for 24V as well.

[Dervish]

What I can't understand is why they didn't just make the FFRs (or all Perenties) run on 24V only. It would have been so easy with the 4BD1 and the array of 24V starter motors and alternators it has.

Has anyone measured their fuel consumption with the 24V generator spinning and then again with the belt off? That would be interesting.

[DBT]

Im planning to pull the belts off mine, in light of the conversation above.

Its been a few months since i ran fuel consumption numbers. Based on GPS trip meter, i was getting mid- 10's (L/100).

Ill do another week with belts on to measure again. Then ill pull the belts and see how it goes. That should give others an idea for relative comparison, if not absolute fuel consumption.

Im doing around 600km a week atm. Consistent routes.

[101RRS]

Has anyone measured their fuel consumption with the 24V generator spinning and then again with the belt off? That would be interesting.

I do not know about fuel consumption but the 24v alternator does draw a lot more power than a 12v alternator.

On the 101 the power output of the 12v V8 is 120 BHP where the 24v V8 is 115 BHP so the 12v alternator probably draws a couple of HP where the 24v alternator is probably around 7hp - so that probably equates up to 1l/100km on the Perentie.

garry

[Blknight.aus]

natural belt drag is about half a horse and the alternator with no electrical load on it is negligible (mostly its fan load which is coverd by the natural belt drag)
when its charging the batteries its (V*A/650)*1.3 for the power required to provide a given out put in HP.

so against flat batteries in the 80 amp setting its

28.8*80/650 *1.3=4.6 hp drive the shaft and very very roughly you need about 1/3HP per belt per HP to deal with belt loss

so near enough 4.5hp and add 1/3HP per hp belt drag plus the natural gives you 1.8 HP drag or near enough to 6.8 HP drag at an 80 amp push into the batteries


IF you dont load the alternators they only have their bearings and fan do drive

[DBT]

Hi Dave, we noted the absence of a clutch on the unit, yet you are saying that power generation and thus engine loading are based on battery demand?

Can you please explain how the engine loading variability works?

Further, if not drawing on the 24/28v system, removing the belt/s to the CAV (?) will give negligible improvement in fuel consumption. Is this correct?

If so, my proposed experiment above hardly seems worthwhile.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

[isuzurover]

Hi Dave, we noted the absence of a clutch on the unit, yet you are saying that power generation and thus engine loading are based on battery demand?

Can you please explain how that works?



Of course the load on an alternator or generator has to be proportional to the power being generated. Otherwise you would be violating the laws of thermodynamics. Which is the reason i commented on Diana's poor choice of words referring to an excess of power.

As dave says, spinning an alternator or generator when there is no electrical power demand doesn't require much engine power.

[DBT]

Of course the load on an alternator or generator has to be proportional to the power being generated. Otherwise you would be violating the laws of thermodynamics. Which is the reason i commented on Diana's poor choice of words referring to an excess of power.

Ya, I get that bit, I wasn't asleep in most of my physics classes.


As dave says, spinning an alternator or generator when there is no electrical power demand doesn't require much engine power.

This is the bit I think I slept through. Alternators are variable in their power generation? Based on demand? Is this where they differ from "generators" in not having a fixed power production (assuming a fixed input RPM), which is then "forced" into the circuit/battery/batteries?

Please educate me. :confused:

[bee utey]

Alternators are variable in their power generation? Based on demand? Is this where they differ from "generators" in not having a fixed power production (assuming a fixed input RPM), which is then "forced" into the circuit/battery/batteries?

Please educate me. :confused:

Automotive alternators all run with a voltage regulator. When the output of the alternator drives the voltage input of the regulator to it's design limited voltage (e.g. 14.5V), the regulator then reduces the current to the rotor via the slip rings. This reduction of current reduces the magnetic field strength around the rotor and therefore induces less current in the stator. If the load on the alternator is very small the current to the rotor will be regulated to a very low value, only enough to cover the magnetic losses and a tiny bit over to keep the output voltage high. The rotational speed of the rotor multiplied by the magnetic field strength around it gives you the power required to turn the shaft. The electrical output power is the shaft power less the losses inherent in the windings' resistance and magnetic eddies in the iron field cores. These losses are what heat up a working alternator.

Oh and automotive generators normally have a regulator too, it works in a similar way.

[DBT]

Just tightening my hat so my head doesn't explode, but I think I get the gist of it.

So basically there's a regulator that creates some kind of feedback loop to control the output of the alternator, based on "demand" of the circuit it's feeding.

I'm guessing this demand would be sensed as a voltage drop in the circuit, which would prompt the alternator to ramp up output 'till voltage stabilises?

Power production increases rotational resistance, which is then transferred as mechanical load to the engine!

Whoah!

:Thump:

[Blknight.aus]

Think of the regulator as a governor that always tries to ensure the voltage is at a set limit.
Think of the two forces in the alternator as being a pair of magnets held north to north that try to repel each other. (and at the end of some reallynl complicated physics that's what it is)

Here's the rules the regulator senses the amount of potential force coming off the magnet that represents the electrical out put and tries to keep that constant. It does this by controlling the size of the magnet that represents the mechanical force .

So. If the voltage potential is already high because there is nondemand being made on the alternator then the regulator makes the magnet on the rotor small. A small magnet is easy to move so doesn't place Mich load on the shaft.

If the voltage potential is low then the regulator ales the magnet on the shaft big and a big magnet is hard to to spin so outs a lot of load on the shaft.


A simple proof of this is on a car with an old belt, on start up while the alternator is trying to put all the spent energy back into the battery the belt slips and squeals, as the load comes off because the battery is charged the driving effort required of the belt drops off and so it doesn't slip anymore.

[Mick_Marsh]

I do not know about fuel consumption but the 24v alternator does draw a lot more power than a 12v alternator.

On the 101 the power output of the 12v V8 is 120 BHP where the 24v V8 is 115 BHP so the 12v alternator probably draws a couple of HP where the 24v alternator is probably around 7hp - so that probably equates up to 1l/100km on the Perentie.

garry
They are much different alternators, Much different in size, power and most probably very different in friction and windage.
A very uneven comparison.

[Blknight.aus]

Surprisingly similar in terms of load.

The fan isn't much bigger and the rotating mass is about the same as the alternator is a brushless interpolating alternator.

If someone has one that needs a rebuild I'd be happy to don the strip down, rebuild and show and tell on how it works and why it's one of my very favorite alternators..