td5 running problem riddle

[Davetd5]

Here's one for all you keyboard diagnosticals who love a challenge!

My wife has the td5 with the kids on a short trip and was approached today in the main street of Moonta SA by a gentleman having problems with his 2000 td5 and looking for answers. I spoke to 'Simon' on the phone and he has had to stop "about 10 times" from Mildura to Moonta (500kms or so?).

He says it starts to chug and vibrate then it cuts right out. He waits 45min then it starts up and off he goes.
He says he had the FPR and crank sensor done in Mildura, they told him the ecu plug is not oily.
He doesnt use water or excessive fuel or blow smoke.
His fuel pump "has always been noisy" and the filter has not been changed.
He doesnt know if the intercooler hoses were looked at.
He suspects water in the fuel although the water trap alarm doesnt come on.
He is sending me an email tonight with anything relevant he can think of.
Waddayafink? I'd suggest another look at the ECU and then the hoses, a filter change and a fault code scan. What else? Do fuel pumps play up like this?

My wife suggested he call in to Peter Brown or TRS when he gets to Adelaide which he may do.

[Davetd5]

BTW 'they' are the RAC in Mildura apparently.

[rangieman]

My money is on the fuel pump ;)

[Davetd5]

Is there a way of checking the fuel pump pressure and flow rate on a td5? Being an ex Ford mechanic I know how to do it on a Falcon!

[Davetd5]

Here is the email I just received from the gent. I have also asked him which are the green lights that flash just before the problem happens, so I'll see what he says. (I recommended that he sign up to AULRO):

"Hi there David,
Thanks for sparing me the time to speak about the dodgy diesel system in my car. Please convey my sincere apologies to Catherine for accosting her in the street and asking her lots of questions about the LandRover. I do hope I did not delay her too long.

If you are going to post on AULRO (for which I am much obliged) the following may add some clues.

1. The two green lights seem to predominate in this problem and have often given me problems before but not to this extent. (I use the lock/unlock sequence to get out of it.)
2. First started to cause a major problem shortly after coming from Sydney and travelling from Yass, through to Jerilderie and up towards Robinvale where it first came to a halt.
3. It was the start of that very heavy rain at the end of last week (9th,10th & 11th)and I drove through the rain continuously from Yass.
4. I got about 50 km short of Robinvale and I started to feel a strong vibration a bit like going over a corrugated road.
5. I pulled over to the side of the road and the engine juddered to a stop.
6. I tried to start it but it just started to run like it was on one or two cylinders and just juddered to a stop again.
7. Called roadside assistance and was eventually taken on a trailer into Robinvale.
8. RACV in Robinvale did not have a computer diagnostic machine so on the Monday they put it on another trailer and took it to Mildura RACV where they had a machine.
9. The vehicle spent the next 5 days at this garage where they checked the fuel system and found a bad leak coming from the fuel regulator. This they replaced.
10.A subsequent road test revealed an engine miss but no fault codes became evident.
11.They cleaned the injector loom front connector and replaced the diesel soaked crank angle sensor.
12.They noted that the fuel pump is very loud and the fuel pressure is 20% too high (100kpa)

From my observations I note the following.

1. Throughout all this, the engine temperature gauge did not move and stayed at 3 O?clock
2. The ABS warning lights (the 3 amigos) constantly on and always were.
3. Prior to this incident, I would often at slow speeds in a carpark or similar situation, have the engine stop on me and the two green lights start flashing on.
4. Recently however on this trip I noticed for the first time the Transmission temperature warning light flickering on and off but only for a second or two.

Further information that may have a bearing:

1. About 3 or 4 months ago I picked up the wrong hose at a servo and put petrol in the tank by mistake. The car was not started but trailered to a nearby garage where the tank was drained and the fuel filter at the back was replaced. It made no difference to the running of the car at the time.

Well David, that's about all I can tell you. I figure as a mechanic you may possibly see a pattern form there and the answer might be very simple. I hope so.
I look forward to hearing from you.

Kind regards
Simon"

[MarknDeb]

Yep sounds most likely the fuel pump but it is a Landy so it could be another thing guising itself ;), Easy way to check fuel pump is turn ignition on and listen to the pump, if the pump takes more than a minute to pressurize or runs for ages its done, when mine went it took about 3 minutes to run up

[Davetd5]

Yes the pump in ours was noisy and ran for ages with the key on just before it packed up. Interesting that the RAC said the pressure was too high.

[rangieman]

The fuel pump making alot of noise is the give away , They do make a noise but more of a whirl than whine .
Tell him next time it stops to cycle the ign then get under the rear and belt the fuel tank and if the pump starts good chance the engine will .
The pump still needs to be replaced ASAP

[sierrafery]

Is there a way of checking the fuel pump pressure and flow rate on a td5?

Yes, to screw in a gauge instead of the temp sensor in the FPR, there must be 4 bar or above, the engine will run with lower pressure too but not well

as long as there are no fault codes logged it's more likely that it's a fuel delivery issue cos that's not covered by diagnostics... that symptom can happen if the injector washers/seals are worn as well and there will be no faults logged either

[sjane]

Never rule out intercooler hoses. Watch or log the airflow readings. Mine went to zero when engine lost power.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using AULRO mobile app

[sierrafery]

Never rule out intercooler hoses. Watch or log the airflow readings. Mine went to zero when engine lost power.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using AULRO mobile app

Do you mean the MAF reading went to 0 under heavy load due to delaminated or leaking intercooler hoses then after you replaced them everything was OK? ... that's a very important information

[Disco Muppet]

Definitely sounds like a fuel delivery issue to me.
I did have a mate bring one by a while back where it would run okay for a while and start dropping cylinders.
Pinched wire on the injector harness.
But yes, Fuel pump.

[Tombie]

Fuel pump whine is not a give away if getting higher pressures...
Fuel pumps for example in Long Range Tanks are very loud in comparison. It may be a compounded problem, but not likely the root cause.

There is a few potential faults at play


Transmission XYZ
Battery Failing
Oil in harness



A quick run on a diagnostic unit will find it...

[spudboy]

Fuel pump whine is not a give away if getting higher pressures...
Fuel pumps for example in Long Range Tanks are very loud in comparison. It may be a compounded problem, but not likely the root cause.

There is a few potential faults at play


Transmission XYZ
Battery Failing
Oil in harness



A quick run on a diagnostic unit will find it...

What is transmission XYZ?

[Disco Muppet]

Gear selector switch on Auto models.
Frequent cause of M/S lights.

[justinc]

Don't rule out leaking lower injector washers, noisy fuel pump and missing qhile driving even stallinh and not starting are all symptoms.

Jc

[simonmelb]

Not stated is where the fuel pressure was measured from ie the low pressure side ( at the fuel filter) where the spec is 0.75 Bar or the high pressure side ( at the FPR) where the spec is 4 Bar as mentioned by Sierrafery.

[Davetd5]

Thanks for the replies, it gives him plenty of places to look. I'll call him soon and go through some ideas over the phone.

[sjane]

Do you mean the MAF reading went to 0 under heavy load due to delaminated or leaking intercooler hoses then after you replaced them everything was OK? ... that's a very important information

Yes. In this case it went to zero even while engine was still turning over as I coasted. Then I knew it was either blockage or maf / wiring fault, as zero flow is normally not possible.
Actually it tended to happen only when coming off the throttle at high rpm. While under load it was ok, which makes sense as maybe the pressure kept the hose layers together. I learnt to drive around it until the silicon hoses turned up.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using AULRO mobile app

[sierrafery]

Thanks for the info... i was hoping that MAF went to 0 under heavy load cos in the case i'm interested the reading goes up to 680+ under heavy load then drops to 0 but not because there's no flow or restriction but cos the flow is really high and the ECU gets too high reading(above 5V) from teh MAF and goes into protection("air flow too high" fault code logged all the time)... the MAP is only 215 at that time so i supposed that the boost is lost somewhere after the turbo even though it's higher which would generate heavy suction... i thought that this whole symptom is due to delaminated/leaking hoses that's why i asked...didnt you get "air flow too high" fault codes?

[sjane]

I guess that sounds more like an air leak where I had air blockage. I fitted boost gauge at turbo out so I have a good way of knowing as soon as something blows off or changes.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using AULRO mobile app

[Davetd5]

Simon has decided to go for the fuel pump. We'll wait to hear the outcome which is hopefully positive.