Help!! 2012 engine into 05 D3 issues 2.7

[Silver Surfer]

Hi. My car is at the mechanics as I type this. I have just fitted a 2012 engine and transmission. Auto won't communicate so they are looking at changing the valve body (which is stuffed anyway on the old one) and the engine will start but only run for 10 seconds then cuts out. Losing fuel pressure.

I assume there would be a computer re programme or similar to fix it but it looks like ending at the scrap yard the way it's going. Please advise if you have any helpful info. I have spent 20k already on a 20k car. Thanks.

[AnD3rew]

I am very far from an expert on this, but from what I have read on these kinds of issues I think the ECUs for all the various components, engine, transmission, suspension etc etc must match up. I don't know how you achieve this but at the least I would suspect you would need access to the LR diagnostic gear to be able to reprogram all the ECUs.

[PeterOZ]

I'll suggest you will need a lawyer to sort out the idiot mechanic who talked you into this route.

Good grief Charlie Brown.

[mechanic2you]

Silver surfer


What tha
The problem you may have is transmission 6 speed or 8 speed
Reprogramming may not rectify your issue
Do you know what faults are logged
What is and what is not talking
Possible huge bag of worms
Sorry

[Graeme]

The 2012 gbox's TCU uses a CANBUS protocol that is not compatible with any D3 as LR made the change to a new format for the MY10 D4 & RRS.

Are you trying to get the engine to run using the 2005 wiring and ECM? Its 2012 wiring and ECM are also not compatible with the rest of your vehicle also because of the CANBUS change. Even if you swapped all other ecus to the 2012 version they still wont run because LR moved some CANBUS wires to different connectors or connector pins for the MY10 vehicles, with the suspenision ecu an example, unless you swap the wiring harness too.

[PeterOZ]

I'm thinking you will need to get a different engine & tranmission that is compatible with your vehicle.

Diddnt the mechanic check via your VIN what combo is needed? Sounds like a very basic first off check was missed badly.

I'd be putting it back onto the mechanic to rectify but fear you are going to be in litigation land pretty soon unless you can find an expert who has a clever way around this mess.

suggest making some comments on the UK forums as well.

Do a ring around of some of the LR service experts and pick their brains on options. Here in Brisbane try MR Automotive. They maybe able to offer a solution.

Best of luck mate. :(

[Graeme]

I was told today that swapping the mechatronics unit did the job for the gbox so I explained why the 2012 didn't work. Did that allow the engine to keep running as I didn't ask?

[pibby]

looking at silver surfer's previous posts he was toying with the idea of putting in a transmission from a territory. maybe went the whole hog with engine and tranny from a territory?? assuming it all came from a discovery may not necessarily be correct.

[LandyAndy]

Pibby is correct.SilverSurfer did post earlier saying he was going to get a Territory motor and gearbox.
perhaps throw the Territory mechatronic unit and put his D3 one in to see if it helps??????????????
Andrew

[~Rich~]

As Graeme has said, it's the newer mechatronics not being compatible with the D3 Canbus loom.
Yes putting the original D3 one in may do the trick.

[Silver Surfer]

Hi everyone. Thanks for your feedback. Thus far gearbox appears fixed with valve body changed ie no faults but not road tested yet. Still have fuel pressure issue. Not sure about that I think the injector pump will have to be swapped to the old one.
FYI:
I chose a 2012 territory engine and bought a 2012 disco 6 speed to go with it. No one mentioned the possibility of issues wth the box and I didn't anticipate any. Now they are saying as I am doing a "conversion" bad luck for me. Of course several people expressed concern about the engine being a ford unit however on inspection I was advised it appeared the same as an 09 LR unit. No one advised me that even an LR engine would be a problem if a later model. Will update again soon. In short it appears no one in nsw knows jack about doing anything other than charging 25k for an engine and 7k for a trans and quite happy to keep it that way. Might be time for a Toyota.

[PeterOZ]

SS did you ask anyone on here for advice beforehand? Some cluey folk with the discos here and I am sure they would have advised you of the pitfalls quicksmart.

You may also wish to consder that you ill have road worthy issues and insurance issues to deal with one you get "Frankenstein" :wasntme: alive?

Just playing devils advocate here.

[Pickles2]

I'm no expert, but isn't there a bloke in NSW called "Bruce Davis"??,....who does a lot of mods/conversions etc?...maybe he can help?
Pickles.

[Geedublya]

Silver Surfer, unfortunately you are in uncharted territory with both engine and gearbox. Another member has done an engine replacement successfully however I have not seen a gearbox done before from a different model.
Forget the nay sayers and keep trying. As far as I'm concerned anybody who is trying to give this sort of thing a go needs all the support we can give.

It is disappointing to see people being so negative and I hope you can work it out and post your results so others can follow your path. I really doubt you will have any roadworthy or insurance issues and think it will be just a matter of getting the new components to talk to your cars system.

[AnD3rew]

Agree with Geedublya, seems maybe you needed some more expert advice before you started, but now you are here keep asking the questions, there are some very smart people here, I also don't think you should have roadworthy or insurance issues, it's not like you are trying to jam a 6.0 Hemi V8 into it, I think the main issues are likely to be the CANBUS and ECU issues that Greame outlined assuming your basic donor parts are ok.

I hope you mange to get it sorted and tell us all about it along the way. I would like to know there are other options for me in the future if I am unfortunate enough to strike these kinds of problems.

[Graeme]

The OP has posted that the gbox has already been sorted by swapping the mechatronics unit which includes the TCM in order to overcome the canbus incompatibility.

[TDV6]

I was talking to a LR independant repairer who mentioned that he did a few mods to his vehicles for competitions (winch challenge etc) and they could get one of their transplanted motor's to run with autologic but it wouldnt run on its own until it had an update done with autoligic, which update, I dont remember. If there is an independant landy garage handy I would be talking to them.

HTH,

Ryall

[Silver Surfer]

Hi everyone. Thank u for your messages. Appreciate it very much. I still don't have the car back. Auto "fixed" although that means no faults are coming up. It hasn't been road tested yet. Engine wise being tested with original injector pump fitted and if that doesn't work injectors will be swapped as well. It appears that all the experienced people I spoke to have seen or heard of a later model being done and had no idea an early model would be any different. That is what has really caused the most trouble. Being a ford engine hasn't really been an issue at all. If I had a 2012 or even an 09 Disco engine I would have had the same problems. Nearly there I hope and my 25k or so disaster should become someone be else's 12k success story in the future. I hope

[Melbourne Park]

Here is a magazine article about a D3 which had a major component swap out sand then the computers would not work properly.

UNSEALED 4X4 ISSUE 007 (http://www.unsealed4x4.com.au/issue007/#91)

Not that despite its age the vehicle had a third party warranty which covered the vehicle.

Anybody knowing of such policies, it would be good to post them here!

[jonesy63]

If I had a 2012 or even an 09 Disco engine I would have had the same problems.

Not quite! They changed from making Euro III to Euro IV in about August of 2006 - there is quite a big difference to the pressures the injectors run at between them. So this would be a problem for your 05 model. Not if you tried fitting it to a MY07-MY12 2.7.

[Silver Surfer]

Thanks. Mmm same colour. Same wheels. Have a pic of mine in the hoist that looks just the same????
Latest is old computer with newer injector pump appears to have killed the pump. This put a lot of metal into the fuel system via the return lines. Found this out after the old pump was used from old engine and it imploded after 5 minutes apparently due to metal fragments. Don't ask me why the filter doesn't stop it but I'm advised it doesn't. Now it's tank out for a flush. I assume fuel pump stuffed and also injectors will be binned. Bye bye maybe 3 more k. I was a die hard. Freelander XEDI, D2 TD5, Series 3, Series 1 ute, D3 petrol v6 and now this. The difficulty in getting the engine out etc plus the issues they can experience is enough for me. Deciding now if I try to drive it for years to get some value out of it risking more drama or cut my losses. Nothing's worth this much money and drama. I will have a 50000 dollar car worth 20000 if I ever get it back. If I was loaded I would have scrapped it.

[SBD4]

Mate, you are made of stronger stuff than me, I would have pull the pin long ago.

I guess the worse possible outcomes have been realised while travelling a road untrodden which really sucks. Don't know who has been doing the work for you but can't help but feel they have let you down in a big way. Are they a Landy specialist? There must be a point at which the shop has got to cop some of these stuff ups.

I hope it comes together for you quick smart and gives you years of excellent service.

good luck!

[PeterOZ]

Far more patient or tolerant then I am, too many years working as a project manager dealing with contracts and contractors puts me straight into legal mode.

Mate in my opinion your mechanic is incompentant. You need to ask then to redress these issues at their expene and if they refuse I would send them 1. letter of demand to rectify all issues, 2. further letter of demand for return of vehicle and all materials you have paid for.

Then go talk to a solicitor, you have very sound grounds to litigate to recoup your losses.

Many will jump on me with this stance but it is very clear this mechanic has not done his homework and keeps expecting you to pay as he makes expensive mistakes and learns what is required.

Find a Landrover specialist and advise them the state of play to find out if they can get your vehicle to operable state. Then get your car back, rock up with a tilt tray and claim it.

That is what I would do. Sheesh I really feel your pain on this one. :nazilock:

[Silver Surfer]

Thank you both. Sad thing is I have it with one of if not the best shop in nsw. It has been mentioned they will wear some of it. Hope it's done in a few days and the final bill will ultimately determine what I have to say about who. I hope they are fair and reasonable as they did some research and they were wrong. Fingers crossed.

[Graeme]

It has been mentioned they will wear some of it.I wondered if this might happen when they were so obviously caught-out with the conversion.

[slug_burner]

Litigation. That will not help. Yes you might get some money but at what cost.

Between patents, IP, OH&S and other legal constructs we have all but paralysed people from doing anything.

ECU often need to know the calibration values/category of injectors. Injectors from another of the same engine will not run well unless the the ECU is give the new injector codes. I therefore think that swapping injectors between engines will need reprogramming of the ECU.

All these problems can be solved however you require an understanding of the protocols and tools to explore, some working examples of the engines and gearboxes would also help. This would make a good hobby but not a problem you would want to pay someone else to solve.

Let's hope your garage already have good knowledge of the various components and the different protocols so they can solve the remaining issues.

[Silver Surfer]

Ladies and gents I am now looking at a 1998 falcon wagon for $1250 and it looks awesome. Certainly a lot better than 2 injectors for my D3. If anyone might be interested in a cheap project keep me in your thoughts. Otherwise it's 2 days away from becoming a cube. I'm am out of money and going no where fast. Sooking I know. But I think I have earned it!!
Despite all logic suggesting otherwise new inj pump was fitted without changing to older model injectors and guess what? Wouldn't run. Well I'll be. Now they are hard to get out and 800 each x 6 and the ones coming out are
Probably stuffed from metal from killing 2 pumps. I hope trying to run with the wrong injectors hasn't stuffed the pump. If it has game over for sure.

[PeterOZ]

Jesus h Christ man that sucks.

Surely somebody on here has some sound advice.

There must be a solution to this mess to get it up and running.

[DiscoDB]

Feeling the pain. If you do end up cutting your losses, I would think about stripping it for parts and only paying the bill based on what you recover. But there must be a way forward to resolve these issues.

I have to ask, what happened to the original motor and transmission?

[Melbourne Park]

This is a tragedy all right.

If it can be got to run, then you've got to sell it, and doing that might effect your conscience.

Instead of the 1998 Falcon, look at a 90 series Prado. I bought one new in 1997, and still have it. it's mechanically fine ( a neighbour just reversed into its driver door though and and has not admitted it ... despite his D4 having paint scraped off his rear bumper's corner ). But there are excellent 90 series ones around, the Grande's are very nice, and they are extremely reliable, and fun to drive (the 120 is dull due to its weight). They sell for around $4k I think. The petrol uses a fair bit of fuel, but its reliable ... it gets in the 12 / 100 on the highway, if you use high octane, for 4,000 km (it takes time for the computer to adjust to better octane).

[PeterOZ]

FFS time for no more mr nice guy. These guys are sucking you dry.

Have you checked around for a landie specilist who knows what they are doing to sort this mess out?

Get one, itemise into a quote what it will take to fix it then hit the idiots with a letter of demand based on what it will cost.

You must be related to mother teresa!

[pibby]

Have you checked around for a landie specilist who knows what they are doing to sort this mess out?


Peteroz one would infer from silversurfer's other threads that the vehicle is most likely already in the hands of a highly regarded independent lr workshop.

Reading about uk specialists who've done this sort of thing this is way out there in degree of difficulty. Taking the car away to another workshop will not necessarily provide the desired outcome.

[PeterOZ]

Peteroz one would infer from silversurfer's other threads that the vehicle is most likely already in the hands of a highly regarded independent lr workshop.

Reading about uk specialists who've done this sort of thing this is way out there in degree of difficulty. Taking the car away to another workshop will not necessarily provide the desired outcome.

Highly regarded by whom? Their accountant and bank manager?

sorry but I dissagree, this is just incompetence by mechancis with limited knowledge who expect the customer to pay while they try different things.

They clearly have no idea what they are doing.

Its a system engineering issue, break it down into the subsystems dn see what is stopping it from working.

Seems to be mainly CANBUS version and ECUs not being able to intergrate.

Why? A BUS is just a bunch of wires over which a protocol is transmitted/recieved by dedicated controllers and by the the various ECUs.

What does he currently have and what does he need to be able to integrate over the existing CANBUS network?

Is it easier to upgrade the CANBUS to a later version with different connectors and controlelrs? Teh physical layer is easy to address, what is tricky is the transport layer and higher layers the protocols require to be able to integrate.

What firware are the engine and trans ECUs running? Reflahsed with LR firmware or still have blue oval code?

Do the verticals and analyse the problems in a logical sequence. It really is not that difficult.

the problem is this is being tackled at the physical and mechancical level, not where the actual problems lay, and there are multiple problems.

Sorry but this is a disgrace and people applogising for these so called "highly regarded experts" gives me the poohs. :censored:

[Graeme]

It has already been stated that the gearbox/canbus issue has been resolved.

[PeterOZ]

and the various systems are still not talking.

[Graeme]

Having re-read the OP's posts I didn't see any mention of other systems being affected although the gearbox obviously hasn't been road-tested. The fuel system damage and contamination seems substantial though.

I expect that the workshop has insurance cover for damage caused by any poor worksmanship but may prefer to incur some financial loss rather than claim. This workshop will be very mindful of the need to look after its reputation.

[Silver Surfer]

Thank you all. Motor now seems to be running but the auto is playing up. Just put an additive in. For anyone that doesn't recall the post its a 2012 auto which evidently won't work. Computer won't talk to it. So the valve body from the old one was swapped in. 2 possible issues there. 1 I replaced the auto because it was showing some issues so valve body probably no good. 2 valve body may still not work 100% with later model box. Will know more tomorrow. Old trans sitting there but less valve body. Low km valve body from 2012 sitting there. Old engine with head or head gasket issue there. Only inj pump gone. Otherwise should b complete. Ran great. 9 l/100. Only issue was kept pumping water out of expansion tank. Will probly sell all parts once I know my car is ok. Try to get some money back. Or keep them for some spares. I am worried I'll need them!!
If it's ready tomorrow should get the bill. 4k engine. 3k trans. Labour =? = scared sh$&less.

[Silver Surfer]

Hi peteroz. I can't comment on your tech suggestions however I can say this:
If you own an early model and want to use a later model engine be it ford or rover instead of trying to be clever just swap the inj pump and injectors or get a cheap ford motor and spend the money you save on new ones. Paying by the hour these days will hurt a lot more than that. Especially when no one seems to have a better fix. 5k on wires or 5k on new parts. I know which way I wish it went.
Trans wise not sure yet. Disappointing as I was looking forward to having a later model box due to issues with earlier versions including my own. I hope it works ok and will then seek advice from zf direct. May end up rebuilding my old one, swapping over and then sell 2012 box.
The mechanic has been ok thus far. Yes 5 weeks crazy and lots of things I could say but I respect people until it goes south which for me will be if I had to pay for any great deal of the time blown in error. We'll see. I can only strongly suggest get 3 people to confirm anything odd or don't do it and I wouldn't trust anyone but myself to do this again.

[Silver Surfer]

Hi everyone. I picked up the car yesterday. Engine wise seems fine. So we have a 2012 Ford engine only major change is new injector pump due to mine being an 05 model. If later model I think that would be ok as well. I think the sump was changed and some of the pulleys on the front of the engine. Otherwise 4k and has done 50km.
Transmission a different story. Working with valve body from 05 box but not without issues. I am advised it is a mismatch. Likely I will have to rebuild my old box and swap it over.
So check your model and corresponding part numbers and check with a reputable parts supplier if the parts you are looking at buying are interchangeable on their system.
Cost wise mechanic was reasonable. He had it 5 weeks but actually only spent 100 hours on it and charged me 70. Not great and 5 weeks terrible but I am content with that. Just don't assume people can work this stuff out easily and sensibly. All up 20k including new hand brake (parts ex UK) and if it wasn't for all issues with injector pump and sadly now auto that would be reasonable I think. Happy to answer any questions you have.

[Graeme]

I encourage you to make sure that any suspected mismatch is confirmed by ZF Services (02 96795555) and that its not just that your 05 valve body needs a rebuild, although the cost of a valve body rebuild might be expensive. There might also be an incompatibility between your TCM (attached to the valve body) and the 2012 clutches and brakes that may be overcome with a re-flash to the appropriate level, for which ZF is also the expert.

[Silver Surfer]

Hi Graeme. Mechanic spoke to zf at arndell park. Apparently the 05 v later models is different and not compatible. New or otherwise. In my case I tiink it is stuffed as well but zf have advised replacing with a new one not a good idea. If I had some time and money to spare would like to try a new one but either going to persevere or rebuild the original box and swap it over. Sell the 2012 box. Reflash was also tried. No good. An auto expert at penrith told me a while back that later models had a
Different valve set up to avoid the premature failures earlier models had.