Engine power loss/limp mode TDV8

[GregMilner]

This is a first for me. Just arrived in Shark Bay yesterday after an 850km drive up from Perth and as we slowed down to town speeds the 'engine systems warning' came up on the TFT screen and the car went into limp mode.
Earlier in the drive, both me and my co-driver noticed that sometimes, when we weren't using cruise control, the engine power would suddenly and intermittently appear to drop then surge back up again. Most disconcerting.

Yet this problem wasn't apparent while using cruise.

I called the service manager at Barbagallo Land Rover, who said to start and stop the engine three times, that seems to have killed the screen alert for the time being, although I haven't driven the car anywhere yet.

Curious, has any other FFRR owner had a similar issue?

Another minor thing: fuel consumption on the drive seems to have been much higher than I would expect, at 10.6l per 100. We weren't towing anything, although we were well loaded up with 4 adults and gear, sitting on 110 to 115 all the way, and there was a stiff cross wind, so I guess that may explain it.

[Graeme]

Was there any exhaust smoke at the time and has the secondary turbo drain fix been done?

It sounds like a sticky primary turbo actuator.

[BigJon]

Check the top intercooler hoses for splits.

[BigJon]

at 10.6l per 100. We weren't towing anything, although we were well loaded up with 4 adults and gear, sitting on 110 to 115 all the way, and there was a stiff cross wind,

That is pretty consistent with what I get out of my 07.

[rar110]

Same here. It drops back to 9lt/100 if I stick around the 100kmh

[GregMilner]

Was there any exhaust smoke at the time and has the secondary turbo drain fix been done?

It sounds like a sticky primary turbo actuator.

No smoke Graeme. Can't remember if the turbo drain fix has been done. It was in for some work at the dealer last year to fit some piping to fix a problem where the pan under the engine was collecting oil, but I can't remember if that was to do with the turbo. I'll get them to run some error code checks when we get back in a week or so. (Currently at Dirk Hartog Island, but left the car in Denham and came over by boat.)

[GregMilner]

That is pretty consistent with what I get out of my 07.

I normally get about 8.5 to 9 at 110kmh on the highway, with the 8 speed gearbox. I'm guessing a full load and stiff breeze might account for the extra use. But it could also have something to do with the turbo, if there is in fact a problem with it.

[rar110]

I generally do a quick calc (litres/odo km) when I fill up to work out what I've used per 100km. The vehicle computer always shows better economy by 0.5 to 1.0/100km. Given the speedo over reads the speed on all vehicles which might also slightly result in the odometer under reading, I'm wondering if the computer might be right.

According to the computer the best I've got from a hw run empty is 8.5/100km.

The mechanic recently put a dose of Revive engine/turbo/EGR cleaner through my motor after I complained of reduced fuel economy and a bit of black smoke on acceleration. I checked the upper IC hoses (replaced 18 mths ago) but couldn't find any sign of a split. After the treatment I t has noticeably more power and runs quieter. The economy seems better but I need to do a few tank fulls to be sure.

[Graeme]

Given the speedo over reads the speed on all vehicles which might also slightly result in the odometer under reading, I'm wondering if the computer might be right.The CCF has individual settings for odometer, speedo and fuel consumption calculations. LR set the speedo to use the +3% +2 kph formula for our vehicles whereas the odometer is based on the recorded tyre size. I changed my D4 to use the +0% +2 kph alternate formula and set the tyre size to what is fitted, being slightly oversize on standard, with the result that the speedo reads 1 kph fast at 110 kph and the odometer still spot-on using the freeway 5 km checks. I also changed the fuel consumption factor from +7% to -6% to get it about right most of the time.

[rar110]

The CCF has individual settings for odometer, speedo and fuel consumption calculations. LR set the speedo to use the +3% +2 kph formula for our vehicles whereas the odometer is based on the recorded tyre size. I changed my D4 to use the +0% +2 kph alternate formula and set the tyre size to what is fitted, being slightly oversize on standard, with the result that the speedo reads 1 kph fast at 110 kph and the odometer still spot-on using the freeway 5 km checks. I also changed the fuel consumption factor from +7% to -6% to get it about right most of the time.

So is the odometer or computer calculated fuel use more accurate on standard 255/55/19 tyres?

[LandyAndy]

Greg.
Incase you dont know,there is a factory backed Land Rover agent in Geraldton if you are stuck.
Whyatts Automotive.They are authorised to do factory warranty work.They get a good wrap from people up that way.
Andrew

http://www.whyattslandrover.com.au/

[Graeme]

So is the odometer or computer calculated fuel use more accurate on standard 255/55/19 tyres?The odometer should be accurate for the standard tyre size whereas fuel consumption might be accurate for a specific controlled test but tends to be optimistic with normal use. I noted that LR's published 3.0 D4 consumption figures were for a vehicle fitted with 235/70-17 tyres, which can't be fitted to normal production 3.0 vehicles.

[GregMilner]

Greg.
Incase you dont know,there is a factory backed Land Rover agent in Geraldton if you are stuck.
Whyatts Automotive.They are authorised to do factory warranty work.They get a good wrap from people up that way.
Andrew

Whyatt's Land Rover ? Welcome - Land Rover Repairs, Service, Parts in Geraldton WA (http://www.whyattslandrover.com.au/)

That's good to know, thanks for that Andrew. I'll see what happens when we get back to the mainland on Friday.

[GregMilner]

Was there any exhaust smoke at the time and has the secondary turbo drain fix been done?

It sounds like a sticky primary turbo actuator.

So it turns out to be a mafunctioning EGR valve causing the power loss and engine systems warning. Thanks to Andrew for recommending Whyatts Land Rover in Geraldton, who were excellent in their service. They ran their SDD Land Rover computer over the car and immediately identified some fault codes, including the EGR valve and - annoyingly on such a long trip - the cruise control, which failed as soon as we left Denham this morning.

We were able to cruise at normal speed until we hit hills or needed to overtake, at which point the car just didn't have the grunt to do the job properly. Glad we weren't towing anything.

Unfortunately Whyatts weren't able to replace or repair the EGR valve on the spot (it's a big-ish job, even if they had the part, which they didn't). So we've got to limp back to Perth (400-odd kays) tomorrow morning but at least we know the issue and it can be fixed under warranty soon enough.

For those who live in WA, or are planning to visit, it's worth noting that Whyatts are the only authorised Land Rover technicians between Perth and Broome. Bloody long way between drinks if you get into trouble.

Thanks to all Aulroians for your input:-)

[Graeme]

It appears that the 4.4 TDV8 only has 1 EGR valve costing around 300 GBP whereas the 3.0 TDV6 has 2 each costing around 400 GBP - good for when these engines get older.

[Graeme]

Is the CC fault caused by a faulty brake light switch?

[GregMilner]

Is the CC fault caused by a faulty brake light switch?

Don't know Graeme, Whyatts printed out a copy of the fault report to take to Barbagallos in Perth, they think it might be something to do with a faulty switch in the accelerator pedal. While the EGR fault was 100%, the CC fault was only at 18%. Somehow the two are connected, no sure how.

Interesting to note that when the cruise control was working, there didn't seem to be a problem with the turbo function. For example, if I wanted to accelerate to overtake a truck, and used the throttle pedal, the car would struggle to build power. But when I used the cruise control plus button, it would respond with instant increased power.

Eventually though, the CC refused to co-operate altogether ("Cruise Control Unavailable"). Very disconcerting to have almost no power to accelerate from traffic lights or to pick a gap in the traffic.

[Graeme]

Perhaps the CC fault is simply due to the EGR fault.

[GregMilner]

Perhaps the CC fault is simply due to the EGR fault.
Yeah I think so Graeme. Just got back to Perth, engine system fault warning on all the way. The guys in Geraldton reckon it's a new EGR valve, maybe $2,000 worth including labour. Will be going into the dealer asap next week. Thankfully, still under warranty.

[Graeme]

fuel consumption on the drive seems to have been much higher than I would expect, at 10.6l per 100. We weren't towing anything, although we were well loaded up with 4 adults and gear, sitting on 110 to 115 all the wayAt least you could do 100! When my 3.0 D4 got sick it would only do 100 downhill and 60 on the slightest incline. Maybe the 4.4's limp home programming is more reasonable than the 3.0's.

[GregMilner]

Well Graeme it took us an age to wind up to 100 or so. And speed was instantly wiped off by the slightest of inclines. I just hope I haven't done any major damage by limping home virtually un-turbocharged for 800km. And glad we weren't towing anything. The only way we could overtake slow vehicles was by using the paddles, and even that was laboured.

[Graeme]

Sounds like my 3.0 experiences unfortunately - keep revs low with minimum throttle, up-shift manually to get the most out of the miserly fuel allocation then wait for the next down-hill run to get some speed up.

I'm heading into the Simpson in a few weeks so have acquired a spare solenoid for the secondary turbo isolation valve because a few have started to fail and if mine goes then limp-mode wont be of any use on the sand-hills. The 4.4 has a similar solenoid but has to be bought with all the vacuum tubes so I'll see if the 3.0's can be used on a 4.4 if it doesn't get used on the 3.0.

I would be interested in knowing in what way your EGR valve has failed and any ideas as to why. I wonder if too much time running on light throttle leads to it clogging or if there's a design deficiency, noting that the valve has been superseded and fitted to the L405's 4.4 even by the end of 2012.

[Blade74]

Can EGR valves be removed or bypassed with the newer diesels? Eg 3.0, 3.6 or 4.4?
I'm assuming a customs map would be required.

[Graeme]

I don't know whether the 3.6's can be blocked but the 3.0 cannot and I suspect the 4.4 neither without triggering engine faults. The 3.0 compares MAP values with MAF values and EGR percentage open and flags a fault is the equations suggest that something is amiss and with the 4.4 being of the same generation, I suspect the same rules will apply. However there are sources for ecm maps for both the 3.0 and 4.4 that effectively disable the EGR valves in normal use but the valves still have to physically move when checked at start-up or shut-down, possibly achieved by having altered the minimum coolant temperature for EGR to be used to an excessively high temperature.

[rar110]

I looked into blanking plates for the 3.6 and they're not available. I assume from that it's not a good idea.

A few weeks ago I noticed on the 3.6 higher fuel consumption, a bit of black smoke and soot build up on the rear plastic mud flaps.

My mechanic suggested a product called Revive engine/turbo/EGR cleaner. Now the motor is quieter, more responsive and not leaving soot on the rear mud flaps.

Maybe this might help.

[GregMilner]

Sounds like my 3.0 experiences unfortunately - keep revs low with minimum throttle, up-shift manually to get the most out of the miserly fuel allocation then wait for the next down-hill run to get some speed up.

I'm heading into the Simpson in a few weeks so have acquired a spare solenoid for the secondary turbo isolation valve because a few have started to fail and if mine goes then limp-mode wont be of any use on the sand-hills. The 4.4 has a similar solenoid but has to be bought with all the vacuum tubes so I'll see if the 3.0's can be used on a 4.4 if it doesn't get used on the 3.0.

I would be interested in knowing in what way your EGR valve has failed and any ideas as to why. I wonder if too much time running on light throttle leads to it clogging or if there's a design deficiency, noting that the valve has been superseded and fitted to the L405's 4.4 even by the end of 2012.

The 4.4 has only the one EGR, yes?

I'll carry your query to the dealer re why it failed, but beyond that you're all leaving me behind technically, and I'm in no way interested in interfering in factory settings by blanking valves etc on a near new car.
It may or may not be clogged due to light throttle use, I don't know. Most of my driving is in the city, relatively short distances - 15km or less - so that may have something to do with it, although the it does get some good long runs in, many hundreds of kms at a time. I would have thought that any potential problems would be picked up with the SDD scan at each six monthly service. (Yes, every six months, event though I might do only 5,000km in that time).
I just want the thing to run as it should, the way it was meant to when it left the factory.

As an aside, I suspect that such is the rate of advance in technology, and the equally rapid integration of computer science with mechanics and physics, it is little wonder that even the most well trained LR technicians struggle to keep up. Particularly when such advances and integrations can be deployed almost instantly around the globe. So I appreciate the knowledge this forum gives me, going into discussions with the dealer's technical people, it pays to be able to at least talk a similar lingo.

[Graeme]

Yes, just a single EGR valve drawing exhaust gases from the right exhaust manifold.

No warning can be obtained for an EGR valve that is getting close to sticking from excessive carbon or corrosion build-up. However your's must be stuck hard or has broken parts to fail permanently and without any previous incidents.

[GregMilner]

Yes, just a single EGR valve drawing exhaust gases from the right exhaust manifold.

No warning can be obtained for an EGR valve that is getting close to sticking from excessive carbon or corrosion build-up. However your's must be stuck hard or has broken parts to fail permanently and without any previous incidents.


Is there any point in trying Revive as suggested by one of the guys earlier in this thread?

[Graeme]

If the vehicle is still covered by warranty then I'd get it replaced rather than try to make it work again. You'll get the latest version of the part and it can start its life all over again from new as they don't last forever. Perhaps they'll decide that the attached EGR cooler needs to be replaced at the same time, which could be a good move if there's any corrosion from the exhaust heat.

[GregMilner]

If the vehicle is still covered by warranty then I'd get it replaced rather than try to make it work again. You'll get the latest version of the part and it can start its life all over again from new as they don't last forever. Perhaps they'll decide that the attached EGR cooler needs to be replaced at the same time, which could be a good move if there's any corrosion from the exhaust heat.
Makes sense, although I was only thinking as a temporary measure till they can get the replacement parts in. Annoyingly, we're down to the one car at the moment as the bride's new one doesn't arrive for another week or so.

[LandyAndy]

I wouldnt be touching it with Revive whilst under warranty.Have you asked if a courtesy car is available seeing its a warranty issue????
Andrew

[GregMilner]

I wouldnt be touching it with Revive whilst under warranty.Have you asked if a courtesy car is available seeing its a warranty issue????
Andrew

Hopefully they'll have a loan car Andy, but they've always been pretty scarce in the past unless the warranty work is booked well in advance. I can't call them till first thing tomorrow morning.

[rar110]

While I'm sure Revive won't hurt, if it's under warranty let JRA fix it. It'll be worth the wait.

[GregMilner]

Well, an interesting thing. Chief technician at Barbagallo Land Rover tells me the problem may not be the EGR valve, but a leaking hose. Don't know which hose yet, we'll find out tomorrow when the replacement hose is fitted.

[GregMilner]

So as it turns out, it WAS a leaking hose - the hose at the front of the engine, from the intercooler to the air intake on the inlet manifold - which manifested itself in the EGR valve fault. Apparently, nothing wrong with the EGR valve itself.
There's another problem though - a fault in the throttle linkage from the pedal.
Another night in the workshop, waiting for a spare part.

[BigJon]

Check the top intercooler hoses for splits.


One of these? :angel::D

[GregMilner]

One of these? :angel::D

Yep, that's the one...it wasn't split as such, there was a leak around the coupling. Apparently the same thing had occurred on another TDV8 in the same workshop, which manifested itself in the same EGR valve error reading, that's how the chief technician knew it might not be the valve as such.

[Graeme]

There's another problem though - a fault in the throttle linkage from the pedal.
So that's why cruise control was mostly OK but using the pedal wasn't. You've been unlucky to get 2 unrelated problems on the same outing.

[rar110]

I've seen a photo of a hose split across the hose along the clamp. Is that what happened?

[GregMilner]

I've seen a photo of a hose split across the hose along the clamp. Is that what happened?

Yep, that's where it failed.

[GregMilner]

So that's why cruise control was mostly OK but using the pedal wasn't. You've been unlucky to get 2 unrelated problems on the same outing.

Not sure they're unrelated Graeme. Chief tech told me if there's any kind of engine systems fault, the cruise control spits the dummy.

Not sure if that's related to the throttle linkage issue though.

[Graeme]

The throttle is a potentiometer set that sends position signals to the ecm. Small movements of the pedal when one of the potentiometer tracks is starting to fail can result in a jerky throttle. Cruise control doesn't use the pedal potentiometer to maintain speed so can't be affected by a faulty track unless the pedal is pressed to accelerate to a speed faster than the CC set-speed causing acceleration can be jerky if still operating in the bad area of the track.

I had a manual TD5 D2 that developed a bad accelerometer track whilst driving around Canberra. The only way to avoid the engine fault was to quickly push the pedal past the bad spot then use CC once over 40 kph, which was a little tricky in Friday afternoon start-stop peak hour traffic.

I'm not surprised that CC wont operate with an engine inlet airflow / pressure plausibility fault which is what I expect the leaking hose was triggering.

[GregMilner]

The throttle is a potentiometer set that sends position signals to the ecm. Small movements of the pedal when one of the potentiometer tracks is starting to fail can result in a jerky throttle. Cruise control doesn't use the pedal potentiometer to maintain speed so can't be affected by a faulty track unless the pedal is pressed to accelerate to a speed faster than the CC set-speed causing acceleration can be jerky if still operating in the bad area of the track.

I had a manual TD5 D2 that developed a bad accelerometer track whilst driving around Canberra. The only way to avoid the engine fault was to quickly push the pedal past the bad spot then use CC once over 40 kph, which was a little tricky in Friday afternoon start-stop peak hour traffic.

I'm not surprised that CC wont operate with an engine inlet airflow / pressure plausibility fault which is what I expect the leaking hose was triggering.

Bloody hell Graeme...you really should be setting up an online consultancy for this sort of information. It's way more than one gets for visiting the local dealer. I'd pay!

[Graeme]

My hand was forced when our 1st D2, a TD5 and the 1st D2 sold by the local country dealer, had a severe driveability issue that the dealer considered was normal and had no interest in doing anything other than standard servicing of new vehicles. I decided to learn about modern engine and other systems controls to avoid being stranded for superficial faults and now have successfully diagnosed and fixed several electronic control problems with my 3.0 D4 along with modifying the behaviour of some other systems in D2 and D3/D4/RRS/RRV vehicles. I've recently determined that the 4.4 TDV8 uses almost identical controls to the 3.0 TDV6 and have no hesitation in purchasing an out of warranty 4.4 TV8 Vogue to maintain myself and to take into remote areas - just waiting a little while in case one with an e-diff becomes available. Indeed the move to a Vogue is to take advantage of more electronic controls - the shocks.

[CSBrisie]

........and have no hesitation in purchasing an out of warranty 4.4 TV8 Vogue to maintain myself and to take into remote areas........

Well that make me feel better about my impending trip :):D

[Graeme]

Perhaps you need to check that I/C hose for an impending split before you go. Restricted performance towing a large van for hundreds of kms would not be my idea of fun.

[CSBrisie]

Gee Graeme, I have had to explain to my wife that you are setting me more chores than her for this Saturday avo!! :D!

Seriously though, will check it and will report back on LLAMS function tomorrow too!

cheers

Chris

[rar110]

I think I might buy a roll of silicone rescue tape for the rear cubby box.

[GregMilner]

My hand was forced when our 1st D2, a TD5 and the 1st D2 sold by the local country dealer, had a severe driveability issue that the dealer considered was normal and had no interest in doing anything other than standard servicing of new vehicles. I decided to learn about modern engine and other systems controls to avoid being stranded for superficial faults and now have successfully diagnosed and fixed several electronic control problems with my 3.0 D4 along with modifying the behaviour of some other systems in D2 and D3/D4/RRS/RRV vehicles. I've recently determined that the 4.4 TDV8 uses almost identical controls to the 3.0 TDV6 and have no hesitation in purchasing an out of warranty 4.4 TV8 Vogue to maintain myself and to take into remote areas - just waiting a little while in case one with an e-diff becomes available. Indeed the move to a Vogue is to take advantage of more electronic controls - the shocks.

Well you're absolutely correct about the potentiometer issue...that's exactly what happened with mine. I've just got it back from the dealer, apparently all fixed, no more error messages. Mind you, haven't driven it yet :D

[Graeme]

A new brake switch (XKB000022) in the spares box could be useful to avoid being subjected to no cruise control or restricted performance if it fails. If away from a dealer it could be changed as the first guess at the cause of such faults. The switch costs approx $30 landed ex UK or around $50 from a local dealer.

D3/D4 brake switches don't last forever so I suspect the same with the L322 version. I consider restricted performance from insignificant faults to be the biggest threat to trouble-free outback travel for the modern LR.

[rar110]

Graeme is that part number the same for the 3.6 tdv8?

[Graeme]

Applicable to 2003-2012 L322 and also the FL1 according to various UK LR parts suppliers.

[Blade74]

Is there any aftermarket silicon air hoses you can use to replace the original turbo to intercooler or air box to turbo or intercooler to intake?
I know there's mafs between the air filter and turbo.
It's common on the defenders to change them.
I've read so many stories about TDV8 splitting them.
Silicon doesn't tend to split...

[Graeme]

I've seen them advertised for at least one of the Vogue TDV8s - 6 in the set. (4.4 in L405 perhaps)

[Blade74]

I'm looking at buying a Vogue and would be very interested in not having to worry about splitting hoses.

[Blade74]

A quick search revealed these guys:

http://davisperformance.com.au/performance/samco-silicon-intercooler-hoses-en-3.html

[Blade74]

Not sure how many hoses are in that kit.
This one has every hose and clamp.
http://www.torqtune.co.za/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=546

[Graeme]

The DPL listed kit says its for an RRS and the Torqtune one doesn't say which TDV8 but I'd be surprised if there isn't a kit available or at least the main hoses.

[Blade74]

You're right. I looked again and they're both for a sport.
Wonder how different they are?
Surely there's a kit somewhere for the FFRR.