Anyone use an Anderson Weight Distribution Hitch

[simmo1]

https://www.titanbrakes.com.au/Product/217/4-drop-weight-distribution-hitch

I completely understand that LR says NO to using a WDH system however apparently a few do. My interest is not about the levelling as the LR system achieves that but, in both distributing some of the rear axle load to the front steer wheels, as well as the anti sway that the Anderson system has. It seems to be a very good and basic system for use on all vehicles except LR, generally speaking of course. And the americans designed it so it must be good.

I don't need a lecture about not using a WDH system on a LR vehicle. I am just wondering if anyone has used an Anderson Hitch system and whether you are prepared to make a response on how you feel, or felt, it works both in a towing dynamics sense and a LR vehicle dynamic sense. Do they cause problems with the LR suspension ECU, is it an absolute no no, or is it doable and worthwhile.

With a caravan when you might have a ball load of say between 250 to 350kg. Application of physics says that this must reduce the axle load to the steer wheels. To me this is not the best thing. Hence the query, is there a way to help. Not sure how the dreaded Jeep air suspension works but apparently they can and do work well with a WDH.

Not wanting to start a war here, or wreck my car either.

Thanks, Simmo

[Tombie]

The system fights with the vehicle... EAS trying to comprehend why the load being felt doesn't add up.

With 350kg on the ball the vehicle steering is still very comfortable..

And the variable steering of the LR keeps it from feeling flighty...

The tow hitch is not designed for the "up" stresses of the WDH.

One must ask: Why do people still believe this "patch" for poor vehicle design / van design is acceptable?

Nobody thinks twice about shoving 400kg of gear in the boot and going for a drive, or loading 400kg in the boot, hitching a 6x4 full of wood or whatever (75kg extra on the ball) and towing without a WDH...


Put simply.. LR says no... And its not needed. Trailer Stability prevents sway (and you can tell when its working if you're attuned to your vehicle) and the law also says no.. I validate this by: If the manufacturer specifies do NOT use, then by law if you use one and something goes wrong you are at fault... And insurance companies, legal actions etc can be taken accordingly.

People keep quoting the Laws of Physics and I'm sure only have a rudimentary understanding of them...

Push tail down, nose goes up... Good...
Raise tail to level... Nose of a coil sprung vehicle unloads a little as the coil continues to lift the nose to free length of coil.
On a D4, the front then levels back down - adjusting the attitude of the vehicle... During this process some weight is shifted back to the front..

[winaje]

I can't find the popcorn smiley...

[simmo1]

Thanks Tombie for the response but that specifically is not what I was asking for. I understand what you are saying.
Thanks, Simmo

[Tombie]

Ok...In this context?

I've towed with coil sprung vehicles (other brands) and a WDH. Without which they were hopeless, and flighty.

I've towed with the D3 and D4 without a WDH (I have a big Catamaran that weights more than your van) and have had it comfortably to speeds well above what any caravaners would consider sensible..

So I have never considered the need for one nor would I bother to fit one on a LR with full TR suspension.

Towing is not magic, even my Xpedition has a high ball weight for its size (200kg) and we never had an issue in several thousand kilometres at speed on loose surfaces...

To validate that - just ask Alien, Sitek, Ho Hars, Muddy etc who were with us...

It's a waste...

And it's an absolute NO - it will mess with the Suspension ECU, making them fight each other, making the compressor work overtime, and the vehicle flighty...

[simmo1]

Well I guess the reason I ask is this. I have a 2014 RRS TDV6. My van is about 2500kg and it normally sits with a ball weight, measured, of around 180kg. This accords with the weight stated on the van plate but which is quite a lot lighter than the general 10% tow ball weight guideline. By placing load under the front bed, bottles of grog etc and taking care to keep as much as possible from the rear I can get the ball load up near 230kg. That helps.


In calm weather all is well. With side winds when travelling along passing things like tree plantations where the wind flow is suddenly interrupted it makes steering suddenly very interesting. Trucks passing cause mixed results but I can't relax when a truck is approaching. Sometimes no real affect. Other times the thing seems to want to step sideways a metre or so, at least that what it feels like. I haven't had a truck overtake me yet but I doubt that it would be a pleasant experience. With side winds that are not stable, such as where we live in western Victoria, it can feel quite unstable and relatively unpeaceful to travel in. The reality is that it doesn't move around that much, but it is moving around and requiring constant steering concentration. With no van or towing a 6 by 4 trailer and no issues at all. Tire pressures up at recommended, car and van all I good nic. I have towed all manner of things over time without any issues like this, but this has me concerned a bit now, hence my query, more about stability not load carrying.


My problems which aren't that uncommon seem largely to be addressed with a correctly set up WDH. The Anderson system to me looks to be a sound operational system.


So has anyone actually used one of the Anderson systems?


Thanks for your patience, Simmo

[Tombie]

Good context Simon...

And may be a factor of the RRS wheelbase vs a D4 ( being 13" longer).

I understand what you are saying - moving loads are not a relaxing way to motor! Been there in the past...

Can you get an Anti-sway system that does not have a WDH function?

Is this a new van to you? Or have you had it behind other vehicles in the past?

Also, does it have Alko DSC? If it does, may pay to disable it and take a cautious drive.. I have heard reports (and there was a thread on here at one stage) of it fighting the vehicle.

The LR system is very fast to respond, you can detect when it's doing its thing.

The fact the van is so light up front is a concern and is one of the overall industries biggest issues - poorly designed (in relation to towing stability).

Good luck..

[CSBrisie]

Can I ask a quick query as I'm new to towing caravans....I hadn't realised how much the van and car are affected by overtaking trucks. Is this something that can reduced (tow ball weights etc??) or is it a fact of life?

[Tombie]

You learn to read wind direction and adjust to suit...

If the wind is coming from you P/S for instance - passing trucks have less of an influence.

Quite the opposite if it's coming from the D/S as the oncoming truck pushes the wind, you get knocked/slight movement towards the truck as it goes by and then struck again by the wind as it finishes passing pushing you back away...

In this instance I find moving away gently as you meet and slight throttle if it's really windy.

[winaje]

Can you get an Anti-sway system that does not have a WDH function?

This works well, http://caravansplus.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=11260 and can be used without a WDH system. Needs the thick plate to be welded to the tow tongue. I'd also suggest welding the drawbar plate on too. I have first hand experience with this particular unit, and found that it helped a lot when driving in the crazy winds around the SA border near Casterton. I towed this:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/827.jpg

And if you want some real fun, especially with "truck effect" try this one instead (yes I know I'm nuts):
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/913.jpg

[simmo1]

Sheeeesh thats a long unit. I have seen that type of stabliliser and I guess the stabliliser effect that you say works well is what I am looking for and for the anderson hitch is the bit that interested me the most.

The winds out around Casterton, yes I know what you have experienced and that is exactly what I am trying to work out how to manage. Folk with different tow vehicle towing the same types of vans don't seem to have the same degree of difficulty, or fun, or whatever it is. Throw in the trucks and its a challenge. And the winds around there are inconsistant and fickle. You can't read them.

I guess towing a block of flats is never going to be an easy affair.

Thanks, Simmo

[mowog]

I tow with a Discovery 4 my van has a 320kg ball weight.

I towed a fair bit so I know how the thing behaves in many conditions.

The OP here I believe may just be over correcting when he feels movement its not first time I have heard of people doing this.

Small movements from the van can feel huge but what you need to is have faith in rig resist the urge to correct (unless you are headed for ditch) you may be very surprised to see your rig correct its self and keep going. Adding more input just simply makes it worse.

If things are going to go bad the trailer stability system will take control I have experienced this 3 times and each time I let the D4 handle it.

[Tombie]

^ this guy knows his stuff! Done a lot of miles with his van on the back!

[jon3950]

With a caravan when you might have a ball load of say between 250 to 350kg. Application of physics says that this must reduce the axle load to the steer wheels.

Sort of. What it does is increase the load at the rear, which moves the centre of gravity rearwards, putting more load on the rear and less on the front to balance the moment around the CofG, as the front axle is now further away from the CofG and the rear closer.

However this ignores an important point. The springs provide a reaction to the load from the weight of vehicle. With normal springs this reaction is constant giving the the usual sag at the rear and lightening at the front. However air suspension has a variable spring rate so varies its reaction relative to the load applied through the self-levelling process.

So in effect, because there is a greater reaction at the rear to counter the additional weight on the towball, there is no weight transferred from the front.

Now I don't know much about weight distribution hitches and towing caravans (and want to keep it that way) so someone needs to educate me on them. My understanding of how a weight distribution hitch works is that it basically applies a lever to the towball. Doesn't this effectively reduce the ball weight?

Cheers,
Jon

[Graeme]

So in effect, because there is a greater reaction at the rear to counter the additional weight on the towball, there is no weight transferred from the front.I disagree. The rear axle becomes a fulcrum when load is added behind the axle causing weight on the front axle to be reduced, van or no van.

What rear tyre pressure are you using? They need to be harder than needed for simply the extra load in order to stay more rigid when the van moves.

I agree with Mowog - don't get too concerned with keeping the rig absolutely rigid, just keep steering as though nothing is happening and your confidence will improve.

BTW, LR only do not recommend the use of a WDH. If you use one make sure that the rear is not lifted up to normal height by the WDH to give the suspension the task of carrying some of the extra load.

[LandyAndy]

I would look at the van tyres,air pressure is important as suggested.
Make sure they are a decent brand and light truck type.The sidewalls are stronger and will flex less as the caravan wobbles.Truckies and Traffic controlers refer to caravans as wobblies;);););)
My boat trailer wobbled behind the D2,partly due to the way the previous owner set the trailer up,mainly due to the oem trailer tyres.I shifted the boat a bit closer to the hich and replaced the tyres with quality Yokahama LT tyres.It still twiched after the boat was moved forward the tyres fixed the problem.It was never goint to throw the D2 off the road,just was a pain to feel it wagging the tail when set off by cross winds or trucks.
Andrew

[discotwinturbo]

I tow very heavy trailers and often.

My Touareg is a superior tow vehicle than my D4 with a heavy ball weight....but on the VW I use a WDH.

My wife first commented about the D4 not being as nice to tow than our Touareg....but she hated setting up the Hayman Reece WDH.

On one occasion I towed using the same WDH with the same trailer on my D4 for about a 400km return trip. It was a vastly superior tow than relying on airbags along. None of the rear end bouncing/floating (whatever people want to call it) that the D4 goes through with 345kgs on the ball.

I only did it once as its not recommended, but for that trip it was noticeable a more enjoyable tow and caused no issues with the air suspension.

Brett...

[Graeme]

I suspect the reason for the recommendation is because if set too high then the pressure in the rear springs will be inappropriately reduced trying to make the rear lower. There is no simple gauge to indicate to an uninformed user just how much load to transfer to the front, although its easy to judge if the air suspension is disabled before attaching the van and the WDH.

[jon3950]

I disagree. The rear axle becomes a fulcrum when load is added behind the axle causing weight on the front axle to be reduced, van or no van.

Because the additional weight is cantilevered behind the rear axle which moves the CofG closer to the rear axle, it appears to do this. However everything actually rotates around the CofG which will always be forward of the rear axle, unless the vehicle is overloaded. The reaction from the rear springs is also behind the CofG and the point is with air suspension this reaction can be increased to counter the additional load.

The problem though is that a towball weight is actually a dynamic load when you are moving, increasing and decreasing as the trailer pitches. This means that the CofG is continually moving, which if great enough will make the vehicle feel unstable.

Cheers,
Jon

[PAT303]

I'd like someone to explain to me how 250kg on the tow ball can lift 700kg of motor and gearbox off the front axle,that's without the mechanical advantage added. Pat

[Graeme]

Because the additional weight is cantilevered behind the rear axle which moves the CofG closer to the rear axle, it appears to do this. However everything actually rotates around the CofG which will always be forward of the rear axle, unless the vehicle is overloaded. The reaction from the rear springs is also behind the CofG and the point is with air suspension this reaction can be increased to counter the additional load.
Air springs are no different to steel springs other than they are used to maintain a more or less constant vehicle height, as adjusted in LR's versions based on the average height over about 5 seconds and only if the gap to the target height exceeds the allowed tolerance of around 10mm. Weight behind the rear axle has the same effect on the weight remaining on the front tyres except for an almost undetectable weight transfer associated with the change in slope of the vehicle for a motor car unlike a tall load on a truck.

Rear-end bounce and the associated cyclic lighter steering from dynamic weight transfer from the van is probably best addressed with electronic rear shocks that can react to such movements but they're not fitted to most vehicles.

My take anyway.

[rwlse]

Oh yes.I've been through all this with my D4 and a 3 ton caravan, and my Darling wife complaining all the time about how unstable the thing feels.
Last year while traveling the west coast I met a Gent who suggested increasing the rear wheel Tyre pressures on the car. This I did and now run at around 46 psi when towing. The caravan a little different running the front wheels at a lower pressure than the rear. I now have around 40 psi in the front tires and 50 psi in the rear. All is now very well and my Darling sits happily in the car without complaining.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

People that believe in the ten percent rule also think car batteries go flat when left on a concrete floor:angel:

[PAT303]

Oh yes.I've been through all this with my D4 and a 3 ton caravan, and my Darling wife complaining all the time about how unstable the thing feels.
Last year while traveling the west coast I met a Gent who suggested increasing the rear wheel Tyre pressures on the car. This I did and now run at around 46 psi when towing. The caravan a little different running the front wheels at a lower pressure than the rear. I now have around 40 psi in the front tires and 50 psi in the rear. All is now very well and my Darling sits happily in the car without complaining.

This is a good post,I ran 50psi in my L322 and 45psi in the Defenders,never ran WDH and towed 1.5-2.5T,WDH are just a dodgy fix to make up for poor suspension,bad driving,under inflated tyres etc. Pat

[gghaggis]

The OP has a 2014 RRS, ie the new style. Some of these do have the electronic dampers as well as the EAS.

However, the Sport is normally tuned to have a much tighter suspension ride than the D4, and the new Sport is also considerably lighter, so I don't think we can assume it will tow the same way as the D4. Certainly the older Sport never towed as well as the D4. Having one (the older Sport) and a D4, I've found that tyre pressures have a greater effect in the Sport when towing. I've also found a slightly longer tongue in the receiver helps, as the Sport has a shorter rear overhang than the D4.

If you have the retractable tow-bar set-up, you can't physically fit a WDH - not sure about Stability bars alone.

Cheers,

Gordon

[jon3950]

Air springs are no different to steel springs other than they are used to maintain a more or less constant vehicle height, as adjusted in LR's versions based on the average height over about 5 seconds and only if the gap to the target height exceeds the allowed tolerance of around 10mm.

Probably didn't word that very well. Wasn't trying to suggest that the air springs have a variable rate in the same way variable rate coil springs do.

When you add load to the air springs they sag in the same way a steel spring does. However to self-level and return to their original height air is pumped into them. This increases the spring reaction which balances out the additional load.

They then act the same as a linear rate coil spring, but at a higher rate than they had without the additional load.

Does that make more sense?

Cheers,
Jon

[Graeme]

I thought about that later but then decided the result was basically the same as HD springs.

I think the discussion got a little OT as I for one haven't used one of those new WDHs, only the old stabiliser bars used in pairs or 4 at a time but never inclined to use with what I've towed with the D4.

[Stuart02]

I've also found a slightly longer tongue in the receiver helps, as the Sport has a shorter rear overhang than the D4.

Gordon

Isn't that counter intuitive? Shorter overhang should mean less leverage

[gghaggis]

Isn't that counter intuitive? Shorter overhang should mean less leverage

Yes, sorry - my new hitch is SHORTER, not longer!

Cheers,

Gordon

[Graeme]

The mystery is solved!

[Graeme]

Not sure how the dreaded Jeep air suspension works but apparently they can and do work well with a WDH.Baically the same principle from what I gleaned in the development of my Llams for Jeeps module, apart from using a normally closed air system (they can top-up with air) requiring pumping when raising or lowering. They don't have extended or super-extended mode nor do they have safe mode, but the suspension height adjusts on a sufficiently regular basis that it recognises Llams adjustments in about the same time that LRs do. The latest ones even adjust a short while after the ignition is switched off to make the vehicle look level when parked!

[LRD414]

Llams for Jeeps module

What ??? I had to read this a few times to absorb it. [emoji15] Once I recovered, I thought that's smart .... Lots more potential customers. But still ...... Jeep. [emoji3]

[Graeme]

Dodge Rams too! Not my idea - I was approached. But I did consider the possible market when investing.

[Fred Nerk]

How about Llams for old Citroens?

:D That would be a totally untapped market.

[pawky]

Hey simmo1. The symptoms you describe sound to me like trailer assist is not active on your vehicle. Is your van fitted with LED's and if so, do you have an LED module or resistors fitted so that your vehicle 'knows' the van is attached?

[Tombie]

Hey simmo1. The symptoms you describe sound to me like trailer assist is not active on your vehicle. Is your van fitted with LED's and if so, do you have an LED module or resistors fitted so that your vehicle 'knows' the van is attached?


Except Trailer assist doesn't need to detect a trailer to be active.

This has been covered many times.

[slug_burner]

Increase your tyre pressures, make sure your caravan suspension is in good order. Consider moving the axles on the caravan back. It may be possible if the suspension is on a subframe bolted to the caravan chassis.

[Jock McD]

Hi all. New to this as this is my first post. Have recently taken delivery of our new D4 SDV6 after many years driving Land Cruisers. Couldn't be happier with the switch! The D4 will soon be used to tow a new tandem 19' off road van. Total weight will be around 3t and I've been assured the ball weight will be around 300kg. I have had plenty of experience towing a 22' boat but the van will have a much greater side area for cross winds etc to play with. My question relates to the need for ESC on the van. Anyone had experience with these systems (ALKO in particular) when towing with LR's trailer stability assist? Thanks.

[discotwinturbo]

Jock, Tombie will be along to expand on this....you don't need esc on the trailer as the D4 is equipped with Trailer Assist.

Lessor cars need it...but not the D4.

Brett....

[mowog]

Hi all. New to this as this is my first post. Have recently taken delivery of our new D4 SDV6 after many years driving Land Cruisers. Couldn't be happier with the switch! The D4 will soon be used to tow a new tandem 19' off road van. Total weight will be around 3t and I've been assured the ball weight will be around 300kg. I have had plenty of experience towing a 22' boat but the van will have a much greater side area for cross winds etc to play with. My question relates to the need for ESC on the van. Anyone had experience with these systems (ALKO in particular) when towing with LR's trailer stability assist? Thanks.

The only possible benefit you will get from ECS on the van is a possibly better resale value down the track.

The Trailer Stability system works on the D4 and it is all you will need.

[DoubleChevron]

I'm going to get an andsersen hitch if I can find the money somehow. Before you jump and and down and say "not recommended" ... Did you guys investigate how the andersen hitch works. Yes it will transfer weight to the front axle (a good thing)... probably not as much as a massively heavy locally made weight distribution hitch. I think the biggest issue will be the height controller on the land rover, it probably doesn't like the undampened springs (which is what the local weight distribution bars are). They WILL cause bouncing and oscillation of the rear axle. which probably screws up the heigh sensors on it.

Now the andersen hitch is NOT undampened. It's not big monster sized bars flexed up to the max. It's chains fitted with bushes that will "give" rather than bounce.

Don't worry about the height adjustment ... It'll take car of itself. I've towed with Citroens for decades. No weight distribution ... weight distribution, caravans, car trailers, box trailers ..... Throw a massive nose heavy caravan on the towbar ... it's arse end hammers down onto the bumpstops ... wait 15seconds ... it'll lift back upto normal ride height. put on some weight distribution bars, pull 'em up hard and tight.... Given it was previously at the correct ride height, it is now way to high ... wait 15seconds and it'll level back out no worries.

What DID concern me was allowing it to settle without the engine running. This would massively torque up the distribution bars ( the equivalent of removing the springs from your car so if falls down onto the ground ..... but leaving the bars hooked up).

If I owned D3/D4 .... I'd go for it .... worse case, you find it sucks towing with the weight distrubution hooked up .... so you unclip the chains and remove them. But still have the adjustable hitch with the rotating anti-sway ball mounted on a friction bush. So you would still have the anti-sway.

seeya,
Shane L.

[Redback]

I feel the most important thing to do when towing, is make sure the van and car are setup to tow first, before considering any device to assist when towing.

98% of van manufacturers have no clue or desire to make their vans remotely good to tow, wheels to small, drawbars not at the correct length, axels in the wrong place and so on and so on.

Then there's to towee, he just just hooks up the van and off he goes, cause olmate van manufacturer tells him yeah just hook her up and go, no heavier springs, air bags for levelling the car, no adjusting air pressures or even if the car will tow it, yeah she'll be fine, it can tow 3500kg, there see, it's in the manual;)

I cringe every time I see people happily towing down the highway, with the car dragging it's arse on the ground, blissfully unaware of anything other than getting to where they are, going at 80kph with 10ks of traffic behind them, cause they can't go any faster or the car will wobble off the road.

Baz.

[DoubleChevron]

That's for sure... Some people have no idea about weight distribution and towed loads.

The Andersen hitch is very, very smart. I'm itching to try one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRoQ_yQZQwQ

Have a look. It's not just the bush dampened leveling, the hitch clamps to your ball so it can't rotate on it ... and the entire ball rotates inside the andersen hitch. The heavier the tongue load, the more force applied to the friction bush in the hitch, so it's much more difficult to rotate (helping prevent sway).

seeya,
Shane L.

[mowog]

People are free to make choices sometimes they make bad ones.

On a Discovery 4 a correctly set up van and D4 combo does not require any additional help. But the problem comes from poor van design or poor setup by the owner. That "setup" can be many things from tyre pressure through to how the van is loaded.

If you tow with a setup that does not meet the vehicle manufactures recommendation and something goes wrong you "may" have issues with any claim.

I have many 1000's of klms with a 3500kg van attached to my D4 not once have I ever thought that I needed anything to transfer weight back to front wheels.

My van in travel trim full of water has a 320kg ball weight. I have zero problems with how the van tows.

If you are having problems a band aid solution is only masking the issues. Fix the problem don't add to problem by using gear that is not recommend.

[Tombie]

People are free to make choices sometimes they make bad ones.

On a Discovery 4 a correctly set up van and D4 combo does not require any additional help. But the problem comes from poor van design or poor setup by the owner. That "setup" can be many things from tyre pressure through to how the van is loaded.

If you tow with a setup that does not meet the vehicle manufactures recommendation and something goes wrong you "may" have issues with any claim.

I have many 1000's of klms with a 3500kg van attached to my D4 not once have I ever thought that I needed anything to transfer weight back to front wheels.

My van in travel trim full of water has a 320kg ball weight. I have zero problems with how the van tows.

If you are having problems a band aid solution is only masking the issues. Fix the problem don't add to problem by using gear that is not recommend.

SPOT ON!!!!!!

What frustrates me is if you then raise the issue with some van manufacturers they will tell you to fit a "masking" solution... :mad:

[simmo1]

It is very good that some folk can find a set up that gives them zero problems. But what about the others? I guess this is a problem for a forum, ask a question, ask it with a view that you don't want to start a war and that you are wanting a relatively specific answer, and you get all sorts of answers. Just how it is I guess.

Thanks everyone for your inputs but I reckon if there is no further actual experience with the Andersen system then it might be time to put it to bed.

Thanks, Simmo

[Tombie]

Simon, it's exactly the reasons you give.

A badly engineered Van (load) is the problem.
A correctly engineered Van (load) will not induce problems for anyone...

Sticking a band-aid onto a vehicle not designed to have such a system fitted is not the optimum.

I would not want to be the one testing the legality of the phrase "not recommended" vs "recommended".

Do you have a van that is causing concerns when you are towing?

[Fatso]

Interesting read , given the max load for a discovery or rrs is (don't quote me) about 6-700 kg from memory , so when someone sticks 350 on the towball are they then reducing their vehicle load to compensate , I have seen some huge vans getting towed by some well and truly loaded landys .


IMHO 350kg is a lot of weight to swing of the arse of any of the larger 4w4 vehicles and would be more suited to F350 or light truck me thinks , but each to there own , happy towing .

[DoubleChevron]

It's nothing to do with the land rover self levelling ... weight distribution simply distributes the load across both front and rear axle. Which will always be better ( even better again.... is a 5th wheeler where the towball is slightly forward of the rear axle, so spreads it's load over both axles).

The andersen hitch I reckon is a brilliant idea... If you just want the friction/anti-sway .... don't tension the chains .... I bet with the chains tensioned so more weight is applied to the front axle tows way better though.

Good caravan design doesn't mean they won't sway one day. though with the land rover trailer assist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy4vfcX_BrU

and the caravan anti-sway fitted to european caravans these days, your pretty safe.

is this the ultimate anti-sway ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FsRXjI8W6o

scroll forward to 2:10 and see the demonstration.

seeya,
Shane L.

[Tombie]

Good videos. And the 2nd one is very clever in design. Well suited to a coil sprung vehicle.

The issue in the LR designed vehicles is the "towing" persons obsession with the concept of load levelling devices.

No one thinks twice of packing 500kg of concrete bags in the boot and driving home. All the weight is till behind the rear axle line.

Yet, load a vehicle correctly, attach 320kg of Van and some people "lose their mind".

2 things a van should be:
- Balanced correctly
- Have effective braking

If it has both of these then towing with a D3/4/RRS will not be a problem.

Lifting (distributing) load on these vehicles induces potential to lose the vehicle.

The vehicle balance over the front wheels is still sufficient, the system now detects additional load in the front, yet lighter than expected loads at the rear and when the dynamics are there attempts to compensate for an incorrect load on its suspension.

Add to this the hitch is not designed for additional upwards force and all sorts of things could go wrong.

***in the LR video the vehicle shakes a dynamic load (the defender is free to move on its suspension, combined with the trailers suspension) so is more variable than the solid load of the vans suspension in the 2nd video.

The driver then throws the trailer more violently than the driver in the 2nd video - to the point of inducing tyre smoke from the trailer... And the a Discovery easily controls the oscillations.

Another huge factor is the choice of vehicle.

Let's take 3 different LR for instance...All can tow 3,500kg

Defender 90
Discovery 4
Range Rover Sport

Wheel bases and weights of tow vehicles should be a primary consideration when purchasing a tow vehicle - not just "which one is the prettiest" :)

If one has a 3,500kg & 6mtr+ home on wheels it comes to be logical that the longer wheel base, wider stance and extra weight of the D4 will result in a much more suitable and stable tow vehicle than using the equally rated Defender 90.

Even the RRS with a marginal (balance/design/size) van is at a disadvantage as it shares the wheelbase of the old Disco 1,2 platform. Is much lighter and therefore slightly more susceptible to the "tail wagging the dog".

For the really big vans - something Iveco in size is far more suitable - in 5th wheel configuration preferably..

[DoubleChevron]

Good videos. And the 2nd one is very clever in design. Well suited to a coil sprung vehicle.

The issue in the LR designed vehicles is the "towing" persons obsession with the concept of load levelling devices.

No one thinks twice of packing 500kg of concrete bags in the boot and driving home. All the weight is till behind the rear axle line.



Your bags of cement are't swinging on a pivot way out at towbar level. The DIII and D4 are quite ok with the axle close'ish to the back of the bodywork. As the towed loads drops through dips etc... you might go from 600kg downforce to minus 50kg ... The leverage effect is massive when downforce is placed on a towbar placed wwwwaaaaayyyyy behind the rear axle too. I just look at some of the twin cabs used for towing these days.... and they simply look unsuited for towing. The towbar is far to far back from the rear axle. The leverage effect lifting the front axle if 350kg is placed on the towbar is crazyness.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/07/1073.jpg

there would be 2 metres of leverage effect with some .... and they wonder why the chassis breaks.

At the other extreme .. is the car I've used for towing anything I can swing from a towbar for the last 20years

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/07/1081.jpg

hydraulic citroen .... they look so weird and ugly because the wheels are in each corner. The towbar is almost over right over the rear axle, so there is no lever effect (they cars have won the european towcar of the year awards for decades .. until the "SUV" fad in recent times).



Let's take 3 different LR for instance...All can tow 3,500kg

Defender 90
Discovery 4
Range Rover Sport

Wheel bases and weights of tow vehicles should be a primary consideration when purchasing a tow vehicle - not just "which one is the prettiest" :)

If one has a 3,500kg & 6mtr+ home on wheels it comes to be logical that the longer wheel base, wider stance and extra weight of the D4 will result in a much more suitable and stable tow vehicle than using the equally rated Defender 90.


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/PMlO5EeuwWNecT-pF6gXkR0uJuh7J1KFkZJLbzE1cHg=w1141-h760-no

I thought you would like this ... This is the caravan my brother just purchased. He sent me the piccies of his new caravan ... and I obviously wanted to know if it came with the tow vehicle. It's apparently done over 300,000miles towing these sorts of loads... Imagine towing these sorts of loads with a 90" wheelbase on snowy and icy roads :o The guys also own a new defender, but don't like it as much as this older one ... so they continue to use it.

Would you belt down the motorways in the UK towing with that at 70mph ?? Nope? I sure as hell wouldn't either :o

seeya,
Shane L.

[Fatso]

[QUOTE=DoubleChevron;
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/07/1073.jpg

there would be 2 metres of leverage effect with some .... and they wonder why the chassis breaks.

Mate just finished a trip on the Simpson with his twin cab 4 yr old ranger and ended like the above , broken chassis and had to get it welded up at Birdsville I think , any way guy that did the job said that the tray was to long for the vehicle (as supplied by the new car dealer) and placing to much weight to far back on the chassis .

[Redback]

The D90 is a very good tow mule, despite the shorter wheel base, even to the point of being voted one of the top 10 tow vehicle in Australia by 4X4 Australia magazine.

My advice in regards to towing, would be to set up your car and van first as best you can, and then if you still think it's hasn't helped the way you would like and you think you need a tow assisting device, then buy the tow assist device you want or think will do the best job.

Baz.

[simmo1]

Baz

Yep thats what I am trying to do

Simmo

[Celtoid]

[QUOTE=DoubleChevron;
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/07/1073.jpg

there would be 2 metres of leverage effect with some .... and they wonder why the chassis breaks.

Mate just finished a trip on the Simpson with his twin cab 4 yr old ranger and ended like the above , broken chassis and had to get it welded up at Birdsville I think , any way guy that did the job said that the tray was to long for the vehicle (as supplied by the new car dealer) and placing to much weight to far back on the chassis .


I thought that 4WD just had a small tilt-tray ;)