86" Engine options - thoughts/advice?

[Warb]

I have an S1 that I would like to get back on the road. It has been registered in QLD, and has had the engine changed to a Holden 186. The engine change is reflected in the (expired) QLD registration papers and a mod plate is fitted. However I am in NSW, and the RMS inform me that the QLD plate is irrelevant and I must get the change re-certified in NSW.

The new engine was apparently fitted with a later model LR bellhousing to allow use of the LR clutch, and no chassis modifications were required.

I assume (?!) that because this is not an unusual swap, and that is uses a commercially made adaptor with no welding or changes to the chassis, that the certification should be relatively straightforward. However it is a 2+ hour drive to the tester, and (though he has yet to respond to my message) I imagine it will be expensive - the inspection and paperwork for slightly oversized mud tyres on a Prado was quoted by a different (non-engine) inspector at $1500 a couple of years ago....

The other option is to refit the original, or equivalent, engine. I do have the original engine, it is not seized but when I acquired it I was told it "would need reconditioning". I do not know what, if anything, is wrong with it, and it is my understanding that it was replaced to get more power for modern driving. I have at least one spare 86" S1 engine as well. As no chassis changes were made in the conversion, and I still have the original bellhousing, I imagine that refitting the old engine would be reasonably straightforward, though I might be dreaming!

The vehicle will not be a daily driver, but will be a fun car for summer use. However as we live in a rural area, where 100kph is the norm, some additional power would be nice to have just to avoid the semi's trying to push us up the hills! The vehicle has an overdrive, and at some stage I might upgrade the brakes.

So does anyone have any thoughts or guidance with regard to certifying the 186 or rebuilding/refitting the original 2L?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Firstly, what radiator is it using? If using the original Land Rover one it is almost unheard of not having to cut out a section from the front cross member. If using a thin Holden radiator, you'll likely find it has overheating problems.

The bellhousing is not a great issue, the gearset inside an 86" box is essentially the same as the gearset in later boxes up to suffix A in series IIa.

IMHO the easiest fix would be to get a good 2 1/4litre Land Rover engine off anything up to SIII. It fits within the same manufacturer/series and capacity rules so only needs a blue slip certificate. A Holden even though a similar capacity (in some cases) is outside the same manufacturer rule and needs an engineer's certificate at a much greater cost.

Getting a good engine is the issue. But Landy 4 cyl seem to go for ages.

Diana

[Warb]

OK, I'd been looking at the engine mounts, but yes the front cross member has been cut to allow for the radiator to be repositioned. It has been sliced out from a point inboard of the steering relay, about halfway down the PTO hole. However it doesn't look like too much effort to fabricate a new section to restore it to its original shape.

I do happen to have a good 2.25L engine on hand, and if it complies to the "same model" rules then you are right, it is probably the way to go. Thank you, your post has probably saved me a great deal of time and money!

Would I be right to think that once the Holden engine and adapter plate are removed, a 2.25L should bolt straight to the current (unspecified "later model") bellhousing, using the 2.25L clutch plate and cover with the existing (S1?) bearing?

[JDNSW]

Yes, should fit to the bell housing with no issues. The 2.25 is a bit of a squeeze in the 86 (that is why 2" was added so the 2l diesel, which is the same size as the petrol, would fit), but plenty of people have done it, so you should be OK.

I would confirm the "same manufacturer" rule with RMS, and preferably with whoever you plan on getting the blue slip from.

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Remember you could reasonably argue the 2 litre diesel from the Series one and Series two is the basis for the 2 1/4L petrol engine and the 2 litre petrol IOE engine was also in the 1958 series two. making it the same series of engine/vehicle. (For that matter Land Rover series vehicles are the classic example of a series of vehicles ;) )

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/series-i-land-rover-enthusiasts-section/98829d1441605554-86-engine-options-thoughts-advice-engine-changes.jpg

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roads/safety-rules/standards/vsi-06-light-vehicle-modifications.pdf

[Warb]

I'm fairly sure that my local blue slip inspector would be happy with a 2.25L engine, and in fact I doubt that he'd even know it wasn't the original.

There is another issue that has just cropped up that makes a non-inspection engine option more sensible. I've just spoken to the nearest mod-plate inspector, and whilst he was very friendly and helpful he raised a couple of other points:

1/ The only petrol available for purchase is unleaded, and therefore by definition all engines now run on unleaded fuel, even if we add lead replacement. Apparently the regulations now state that any vehicle running on unleaded fuel MUST be fitted with a catalytic converter. The rule has no bearing on a standard vehicle of this age, except that if it is modified it suddenly has to comply to have the mod approved. So by his interpretation of the regulations, any engine change requiring approval MUST have a cat fitted. However (I told you he was helpful) he checked the regulations and there is a line that says "where possible". He believes that in an 86" vehicle there may be insufficient physical space to safely and correctly fit a cat, so he would be willing to let that slide.

2/ Brakes. Disregarding the logic that says it requires the same braking force to slow down from a given speed regardless of how fast you accelerated to get to that speed, apparently the regulations require him to ensure that the braking capability matches the power of the engine. So whilst 10" single leading shoes might be legal and adequate (?) for the original engine, if the power is increased with a new engine then he must consider whether the brakes are still adequate before he can approve that new engine.

So in a nutshell, any modification that requires approval largely means that the "1956ness" of the vehicle goes away, and all related aspects have to comply with modern regulations or at least match the actual modification. More power = more brakes etc.

For anyone interested, the fee's are largely fixed and the approval inspection and RMS paperwork add up to about $900 including GST. To get registered there is also a weighbridge ticket and blue slip inspection (about $70).

I have yet to make a final decision, but I'm off to measure the length of the 2.25L in comparison to the Holden.....

[russellrovers]

OK, I'd been looking at the engine mounts, but yes the front cross member has been cut to allow for the radiator to be repositioned. It has been sliced out from a point inboard of the steering relay, about halfway down the PTO hole. However it doesn't look like too much effort to fabricate a new section to restore it to its original shape.

I do happen to have a good 2.25L engine on hand, and if it complies to the "same model" rules then you are right, it is probably the way to go. Thank you, your post has probably saved me a great deal of time and money!

Would I be right to think that once the Holden engine and adapter plate are removed, a 2.25L should bolt straight to the current (unspecified "later model") bellhousing, using the 2.25L clutch plate and cover with the existing (S1?) bearing? hi warb if you require the front chassi section i have one here can post regards jim orignal rust free

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Let me get this straight.

The vehicle has never been registered in NSW and therefore has no record in the NSW database.

You want to fit a 1956 (pre-ADR) vehicle with what could be a 1958 (pre-ADR) engine that would have had exactly the same brakes on the original vehicle as the 86 already has.

Cancel any Qld Rego the vehicle may have, shove the engine in and get a Blue Slip. (Its a pity you have already spoken to the Blue Slip examiner, had you merely presented the vehicle with a 2 1/4 it would probably have gone straight through.)

[Warb]

Actually it had not occurred to me to use a 2.25L motor until you mentioned it. But I did discuss the option of refitting the 2L motor with the blue slip examiner, and he was happy with it. Being as this is a small town and he does all our vehicle regos and servicing, has blue slipped several vehicles for me (including newly built trailers), I'm pretty sure that he'll be happy with the 2.25L..... If I don't tell him otherwise he'll probably just assume it is the original motor!!

The Holden seems to be about 30 - 31 inches from bellhousing to fan, and the 2.25L is almost exactly the same length. So with any luck it will drop straight in!!

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Warb

As John mentioned the 86" became 88" by moving the front axle 2" forward to accommodate for the sump on the 2litre diesel/2 1/4lire petrol. so it would be worthwhile packing under the engine mounts a little so the engine breather and carby/inlet hose just clear the underside of the bonnet. This will reduce the chance of the axle housing hitting the sump a little.

Your radiator should already have the inlet on right (right) side although you may need to look for a standard grill/radiator support.

Diana

[Warb]

On first inspection it looked like the original radiator support was still intact, but has been bent to allow the radiator to be repositioned. However I didn't look too carefully so I could be wrong and it's too cold+dark to check now! The original fan shroud also came with the vehicle, though obviously not attached to it.

Lifting the engine would presumably also require lifting or altering the angle of the gearbox to some extent. I recall thinking that the top of the bellhousing was quite close to the transmission tunnel (firewall) so the gearbox might have already been lifted to fit the Holden engine?

Looks like tomorrow morning will be spent measuring and comparing the clearances with an 86" that still has the original engine. Then will come the decision on whether it's easier to swap the engine, or fit (better) brakes from a later model and pay for the certification! Hmmm.

[JDNSW]

One factor worth thinking about and taking into consideration, is that fitted with the original engine it will certainly be worth more in the future, and the further you look into the future the bigger the difference will get. Most Series 1s are probably already owned by collectors, and collectors prefer originality; and the older the object, the bigger the difference will get.

I don't think this applies yet to Series 2/3, but it is definitely moving in that direction.

John

[Warb]

Most Series 1s are probably already owned by collectors, and collectors prefer originality; and the older the object, the bigger the difference will get.

True, but that suggests the best option is the original 2L engine rather than a 2.25L, which in turn involves the expense, time and effort to rebuild the original engine and further reduces the usability of the vehicle on modern roads. I'm not sure whether a 2.25L is materially more "original" than a Holden, as neither are correct from a rivet-counting viewpoint. In any case I will retain the old 2L motor so it can be refitted in the future if the need arises!

My wife tells me that none of my "toys" are worth anything simply because I won't sell them....... But I do agree that if I was trying to flip this vehicle for the most money then I'd certainly be looking to keep it original.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

On first inspection it looked like the original radiator support was still intact, <snip> The original fan shroud also came with the vehicle, though obviously not attached to it. <the usual practice was to cut about 2"from the back of the support and bolt the radiator onto new holes>

Lifting the engine would presumably also require lifting or altering the angle of the gearbox to some extent. I recall thinking that the top of the bellhousing was quite close to the transmission tunnel (firewall) so the gearbox might have already been lifted to fit the Holden engine? <yes Holden engines have an elevated angle on the crankshaft. I'm only suggesting using spacers of ~4-5 mm on either side of the rubber engine mount so you'll probably only get about 10mm but even a little is better than none. So the gearbox will probably be about the same or less than the Holden.>

Looks like tomorrow morning will be spent measuring and comparing the clearances with an 86" that still has the original engine. Then will come the decision on whether it's easier to swap the engine, or fit (better) brakes from a later model and pay for the certification! Hmmm.see comments in red.

[JDNSW]

True, but that suggests the best option is the original 2L engine rather than a 2.25L, which in turn involves the expense, time and effort to rebuild the original engine and further reduces the usability of the vehicle on modern roads......

I'm not saying this is what you should do, just that you should think of it.

John

[Warb]

the usual practice was to cut about 2"from the back of the support and bolt the radiator onto new holes

On this one it looks like the mounting flanges have been bent outwards rather than cut off. New holes have been drilled, but it looks like the excess material is still there and could be panel beaten back to its original position.

[tonyf]

I don't know how many original Series I vehicles there are around now. But it seems to me a great pity not to put in the original engine, replace the cross-member and otherwise bring it back to original state. This is a classic car. Whether or not you ever sell it, won't it give you great satisfaction to have it back in original condition?

[Warb]

I'm not saying this is what you should do, just that you should think of it.

I agree, and it's a valid point. My approach in the past has been to avoid making modifications that cannot be undone. That way the vehicle can be improved to make it more usable, whilst being preserved and allowing a return to factory specification should the need arise. To that end, whatever engine ends up in the vehicle the original will still be retained.

I must also say that I have never actually driven a 2L LR on the road. If, with overdrive, it is capable of keeping up with modern traffic at least well enough to avoid having a queue of vehicles jammed up behind it, then I'd be happy to refit it! My suspicion is that it's probably not, though I also own an 86" with a Toro overdrive and the original engine that (when it was younger) was apparently used as a daily driver to commute from Mudgee to Bathurst. So maybe I'm wrong?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I don't know how many original Series I vehicles there are around now. But it seems to me a great pity not to put in the original engine, replace the cross-member and otherwise bring it back to original state. This is a classic car. Whether or not you ever sell it, won't it give you great satisfaction to have it back in original condition?I know what you mean.

My ex-RACQ 1951 80" had a 2 1/4 litre when I bought it, I was obsessive attempting to find a correct period engine (correct number range) for overhaul but even after finding what I thought was an ideal engine, the number matched to the rear axle assembly number rather than the front, so it was out by about 4,000 engines. That was 10 years ago.

Today I'm more pragmatic and I'd probably leave the 2 1/4L. :(

[Warb]

I don't know how many original Series I vehicles there are around now. But it seems to me a great pity not to put in the original engine, replace the cross-member and otherwise bring it back to original state. This is a classic car. Whether or not you ever sell it, won't it give you great satisfaction to have it back in original condition?

Another viewpoint is "would you prefer to own a car that takes up space in the shed but can never be enjoyed other than as a piece of history to look at, or a car that can be taken out and used?"

S1's aren't really that rare, there are usually a couple or more on eBay/Gumtree etc., and I know of several within 20km of my farm.

My view is that if the car is kept alive, that's better than it being crushed for scrap. For me, to keep it alive means I want to be able to use it and using it means driving on the road. To drive on the road with good conscience and some degree of safety means it needs to accelerate to 90kph+, not slow down too much on hills, and stop safely. It also needs seatbelts, indicators and other such niceties which were not originally fitted. As I said, I don't know how good or bad the 2L engine really is, but obviously a previous owner of this vehicle didn't think it was good enough!

On the other hand, I still haven't completely decided which way to go.....

[Warb]

Continuing the investigation, and still yet to make a choice!

Having cleaned the mud and goop from the original motor it appears OK, no broken castings from storage and no rods poking through the block. As I said, it is not seized, and appears complete. It has been fitted with the wrong carb at some point, but I have what I suspect to be the original carb in a box of bits that came with it. As I also have the original bellhousing, it would seem that I have all the parts required to return to the factory spec. should I choose to do so.

So, the big question! I've never driven a 2L Series 1. Obviously power is less than a 2.25L, and quite significantly less than the Holden 186. But can it reasonably be driven on modern roads? With the overdrive engaged, and assuming everything is working well, can it produce a cruising speed that will avoid angering the truck drivers?

[JDNSW]

.......... As I said, I don't know how good or bad the 2L engine really is, but obviously a previous owner of this vehicle didn't think it was good enough!
.......

The previous owner probably fitted a second hand Holden engine, which was cheap as they usually rusted into the ground long before the engine was badly worn, mainly because he was at that stage looking at a no longer new vehicle, and overhauling the engine was going to cost more than the vehicle was worth, where the Holden conversion probably cost a quarter of that.

It is a long time since I drove a 2.0 Landrover, but I would think that a lightly loaded 86, with the engine in good condition, and sensible tyres, would have satisfactory, if not good, performance. And an overdrive should not be necessary particularly if you use 7.50 tyres, although it does help to be able to split between 3 & 4 on hills. Remember that this engine is happy to run at quite high rpm and is smooth and quiet in good nick.

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

You can use a 2 litre with an overdrive when you have a tail wind on a flat road and going down hill! :D

It would be a better drive with the 2 1/4L

Many of the early Landies ended up with a Stromberg carby off a red or grey Holden engine, not necessarily because they were a better carby but because the kits were everywhere.

You will have to change the bottom port on the radiator if you go back to the 2 litre engine.

[crackers]

You say you've got a good 2 1/4 motor so get her restored and on the road with the working engine you have available. THEN worry about getting the original motor rebuilt, or just preserve it so you can sell it as part of the package. Taking time and money out now to rebuild a motor is just adding to the overall restoration/fix-up/whatever-you're-doing time. Get her legal, mobile and safe, then you can worry about the original motor. The only penalty to not having the original motor fitted is a few concours points at those concours competitions you probably don't enter anyway.

Just my thoughts. For what it's worth, we did this with my Hillman Minx back when I was in the the Hillman club. The original motor was stuffed but we were able to get a later one - same block, bigger displacement, but most importantly, it worked. Spent an afternoon changing motors, then drove her with that until it came time to sell her.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

You say you've got a good 2 1/4 motor so get her restored and on the road with the working engine you have available. THEN worry about getting the original motor rebuilt, ...
...The only penalty to not having the original motor fitted is a few concours points at those concours competitions you probably don't enter anyway.

...Wot he said.

Except, IMHO, there is no such thing as a concours d'elegans, Land Rover, they were sold by the local stock feed and farm supplier so you could carry a few coils of barbed wore home to the station.

Nothing elegant about that!

(in fact most concours events wouldn't even accept an entry from a GM or Ford product let alone a old farm Land Rover. :D )

[crackers]

Except, IMHO, there is no such thing as a concours d'elegans, Land Rover,

concours d'grot? :D