Head Gasket replacement

[TheTree]

Hi

I have the dreaded coolant leak happening, plus a small oil leak though i'm not sure where that is coming from.

Going through some of the other threads, I have come up with this list of parts and I am looking for comments, good or bad !

ARP Stud Kit; ARP-157-4301

Elring head gaskets; (LR #LVB500030)

Payen Valley Gasket; JB894 (#LR AJM693)

Valley gasket end seals;

Trumpet base Gasket;

Steel Exhaust manifold gaskets

Rocker Cover Gaskets;

Valve stem seals;

Injector seals;

O-Rings;

Coolant hoses;

Pushrods; Adjustable perhaps, or shims to set preload for rockers

Most of this can be obtained in a good VRS set, then it seems you just need to buy the Payen Gasket

Steve

[mtb_gary]

Steve
Another item would be a long extension for tensioning up the head bolts. They are incredibly tight. I used a 1.5m extension on the end of the spanner :o

[Pedro_The_Swift]

so little time, so much to say,,:angel:
do your research. read V8 rebuild threads.
studs are good
glue your rocker cover gaskets,
glue your valley gaskets.
I dont have a good opinion of any brand composite gasket.
Head gasket torque is a "cross your fingers" moment.:angel::(

[TheTree]

Steve
Another item would be a long extension for tensioning up the head bolts. They are incredibly tight. I used a 1.5m extension on the end of the spanner :o

Mate

I large breaker bar is a part of my weaponry already, though i may have to get another length of water pipe for extra leverage !

Steve

[TheTree]

so little time, so much to say,,:angel:
do your research. read V8 rebuild threads.
studs are good
glue your rocker cover gaskets,
glue your valley gaskets.
I dont have a good opinion of any brand composite gasket.
Head gasket torque is a "cross your fingers" moment.:angel::(

Mate

Do you prefer the stainless head gaskets ? Most seem to prefer the composite ones.

I have been reading heaps, the threads on here as well as the Paul P38a page.

When you say glue the gaskets do you mean with something like Permatex Hylomar?

[daf11e]

Where is the dreaded coolant leak Steve?...engine rear?..on bell housing?

[TheTree]

Where is the dreaded coolant leak Steve?...engine rear?..on bell housing?

Mate,

Rear of the engine you can see it running down the side of the engine :mad:

[daf11e]

Thanks mate , reason I asked is I had a coolant leak at the rear for a while and after checking everything was 90% sure it was like Paul 's write up with head gasket leak rear and onto starter motor. You wouldn't believe since I had the coolant fire and replaced the top hose there is no more coolant leak at rear or loss. Don't know yet if I've dodged a bullet but we'll see....good luck with yours!

[p38arover]

Going through some of the other threads, I have come up with this list of parts and I am looking for comments, good or bad !

ARP Stud Kit; ARP-157-4301

Elring head gaskets; (LR #LVB500030)

Steel Exhaust manifold gaskets

I used that ARP stud kit.

Head gaskets - maybe Cometic MLS. That's what i used. They are pricey, though.

I used the composite exhaust manifold gaskets but you may recall that Jilden mentioned he's had failures with them. http://www.aulro.com/afvb/p38a-range-rover/217985-my-thanks-scouse-3.html

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Mate

Do you prefer the stainless head gaskets ? Most seem to prefer the composite ones.

I have been reading heaps, the threads on here as well as the Paul P38a page.

When you say glue the gaskets do you mean with something like Permatex Hylomar?

Multi layer steel, (MLS),, just do it.
I used 40thou. wish I'd used 20 now,,
I did the studs to 100lbs, you could go less,,,,
but I wouldnt.

lots of informed engine builders here to help with glueing gaskets,, any/everything that keeps fluids in or out needs glueing, whether its a spray hylomar for the MLS or a silicone for the valley,, its cheap insurance.

[p38arover]

Despite what Cometic's Aust supplier told Pedro, I'm still not sure about putting Hylomar or anything else on the Cometic gaskets especially as Cometic's website warns against it.


Why does Cometic recommend MLS gaskets to be installed dry?
Cometic Multi-Layer Steel (MLS) head gaskets go on dry because they are coated with a sealant. Each MLS head gasket is coated with a .001" thick Viton rubber that is bonded to the outer stainless steel layers. Adding an additional sealer can hinder the performance of an MLS head gasket.

[TheTree]

Despite what Cometic's Aust supplier told Pedro, I'm still not sure about putting Hylomar or anything else on the Cometic gaskets especially as Cometic's website warns against it.

Ron

Sounds like it may be best to follow the manufacturers in instructions

Did you buy the rest of the bits like o-rings etc separately ?

I won't need injector seals since I put those GenIII injectors in recently, but I think stuff like valve stem seals will be required.

Steve

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Steve, did you post up any tech info on the GenIII injector swap?:angel:

[TheTree]

Steve, did you post up any tech info on the GenIII injector swap?:angel:

I did mate :cool:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/p38a-range-rover/220470-gen-iii-injectors-act-superflow-trumpets.html

Steve

[p38arover]

Ron
Did you buy the rest of the bits like o-rings etc separately ?


I only bought studs, valley end seals, valley gasket, head gaskets, and exhaust gaskets. We fitted new coolant hoses in the difficult to access spots.

I didn't pull the injectors so I didn't need seals. I didn't touch heads apart from a skim, they'd been rebuilt with new guides, etc., when the engine was built 40,000km earlier.

[TheTree]

I just spoke to Rupert Prior and he seems to think it is more likely to be a manifold gasket leak, so I am going to get the borescope camera out and have a good look around.

It may be less work than I thought, fingers crossed!

Steve

[TheTree]

From what we could see today it looks more like it's the head gasket rather than the manifold gasket :(

Will look more closely next time we have it on the hoist

Steve

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Steve,, for a MLS gasket to work,,

and you DO want it to work,,
The heads and block must be a mirror finish,, or around 50 Ra.

which is why I used Hylomar,,

I'm sure the Cometic website assumes all builds will be using NEW components.

[Scouse]

I used 40thou. wish I'd used 20 now,,
You can use the 20s next month.

[p38arover]

Yesterday I asked Bruce Davis if they used anything on Cometic gaskets. He said they didn't.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

You can use the 20s next month.

I could find you you know,,,

[Scouse]

Yeah right - are you going to catch the train to get here?
:)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

not at the moment,,:angel:

[TheTree]

Well it seems there is an issue, plugs from #1 and #7 came out of the engine wet :(

Hoping it's only a head gasket !

Steve

[mtb_gary]

Fingers crossed for you Steve!

[TheTree]

It also looks very much like there has been oil seeping out under the heads as well

Should have them off in the next couple of hours !

Steve

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Take pics of everything,,
only because in 6 months time you'll be saying "Why didnt I---":D

[TheTree]

Well the heads are off and I suspect the main problem was those stretch bolts. On this motor the head bolts felt very loose, i could have undone most of them with a ratchet ! I remember on the original motor we had the long bar and had to bust a gut to loosen the head bolts.

No 7 piston has been getting steam cleaned and there is a surprising amount of buildup of crud in the upper areas of the engine. I think i will use flushing oil in it when I reassemble the motor.

Apart from that it all looks pretty good, no wear on the rocker arms or cam so it should go back together nicely.

Getting the heads crack tested and checked tomorrow

Steve

[banarcus]

Steve, that's exactly how my cyls were. Blew both gaskets through to the water port. A number of my head bolts were also loose.

I ended up getting both heads surfaced even though they were mostly within spec and used the payen brand bolts and Elring gaskets. I sold the engine because of my Ford V8 conversion but if I kept it, ARP studs for sure!!

[Scouse]

I've heard that loose head bolts are not a cause of a blown head gasket but the result so I don't think they're anything to actually worry about.

[TheTree]

The head gaskets themselves look fine so i'm not sure exactly why it was leaking oil and coolant, but the ARP stud kit and MLS Head Gasket should solve the problem

Steve

[TheTree]

Some pic of the muck around the rocker assemblies

Wondering if this is normal?

Steve

[Pedro_The_Swift]

NO!!!
shows a severe lack of TLC,,
see colour below

http://www.super7thheaven.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/rover-v8-lifter-valley-clean.jpg

[TheTree]

HI

That's what I thought, lack of oil changes or lots of short runs to get a buildup like that after 60-70,000 K

Flushing oil should help

Steve

[Pedro_The_Swift]

If thats the state of the engine, no wonder its blown a gasket.
I'm not sure what gets rid of the gunk thats already there,,
I'm sure a professional will be along shortly:D

[TheTree]

If thats the state of the engine, no wonder its blown a gasket.
I'm not sure what gets rid of the gunk thats already there,,
I'm sure a professional will be along shortly:D

Hi,

The current plan is to remove as much of it as possible then put a new oil filter on, add engine oil flush and run for 10 minutes. Then drop the oil, put a new filter on and new oil.

Then perhaps 5K oil changes with a flush for the next couple of oil changes

Steve

[banarcus]

Steve, those photos show that either there was a lot of in between short trips ie Sydney suburban traffic and/or not enough oil changes. I'd be putting in a bit of diesel in your oil or some of the engine flushes that are out there to clean it up. It's the sludge that you don't want. It gets into your lifters and blocks them up and not to mention the wear and tear on all the other bits.

After it's all finished, give it a few runs up and down the freeway.

[PLR]

Some pic of the muck around the rocker assemblies

Wondering if this is normal?

Steve

G`day ,

if the pic is telling a true story ?

The bottom rocker face that runs on the stem is well worn as in the stem has burrowed into the face .

If the case ( not just the pic ) i`d be surprised if you slid the rockers along the shafts that you don`t find grooves in the shafts where the rockers run .

Coolant where you`ve found it , on the end cylinders is likely gasket but if in the cylinders and you say the gaskets look ok then block can`t be discounted .

You may like to put up pics of your gaskets both sides and the block surface and maybe someone else may see something missed .

[Pedro_The_Swift]

What are you thinking Peter?

[TheTree]

G`day ,

if the pic is telling a true story ?

The bottom rocker face that runs on the stem is well worn as in the stem has burrowed into the face .

If the case ( not just the pic ) i`d be surprised if you slid the rockers along the shafts that you don`t find grooves in the shafts where the rockers run .

Coolant where you`ve found it , on the end cylinders is likely gasket but if in the cylinders and you say the gaskets look ok then block can`t be discounted .

You may like to put up pics of your gaskets both sides and the block surface and maybe someone else may see something missed .

Hi

There are definitely signs of leakage from the head gasket, when I said they looked fine I just meant they didn't have any holes or gaps blown in them.

Surprisingly there does not seem to be any wear on the faces of the rockers or the pushrods.

I'll double check the rocker shafts and post some pics of the gaskets and the block later today

Steve

[PLR]

What are you thinking Peter?

G`day Pedro ,

mostly very little and only my opinion but from the carbon/gunk in the pic it looks like a spend a lot , do a lot or a spend a little do a little engine .

If the rocker gear are as such so will the rings and pistons be carboned and i would imagine the bigs and mains won`t be pretty ETC .

Sometimes ( if the pic is an indication of the rest of the engine condition ) it is better to leave the carbon be rather than loosen it and allow it to make its way around/through the engine , many a running engine has been killed by well intentioned cleaning .

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Yea Pete,, I got some of that just by googling how to clean the gunk off. :(

oven cleaner?!? :confused:

[TheTree]

Hi

I spoke to the guy who did my heads and he reckons because it is a gummy kind of deposit rather than hardened carbon then an engine flush will be fine

The entire top end is now very clean :cool:

Steve

[benji]

Had exactly the same gunk in my engine, cheap oil and 20k services all its life in Melbourne.

I ran the nulon oil flush (after physically cleaning as much as could be), and have simply done 10k services and it's a golden brown colour now. That was 30k km ago.



Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[TheTree]

Had exactly the same gunk in my engine, cheap oil and 20k services all its life in Melbourne.

I ran the nulon oil flush (after physically cleaning as much as could be), and have simply done 10k services and it's a golden brown colour now. That was 30k km ago.


Benji

That's a relief to know. I have been doing 10K oil changes since I fitted the motor but the buildup was obviously present at that point.

Heads go back on today :D

Steve

[TheTree]

HI

In terms of sealant I have decided to

a) Use a spray of hylomar on the head gasket

b) Use Permatex black on the valley gasket

I note the permatex black says to put it on, hand tighten until some silicone oozes out, then leave for 24 hours before torquing. Has anyone else done this ?

c) Use a smear of Mani-seal on those pesky exhaust gaskets !

Hopefully that will keep things good for at least another 50K :angel:

Steve

[Pedro_The_Swift]

just in case you havent already decided--
on stud torque,,
on the previous previous (using studs) build, composite gaskets and 70lb was used and failed, 18months. British Off Road used a comp gasket and "torque it down with OE bolts then replace with studs" method,, it too failed, 18months.
This time I used MLS and 100lbs.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Good O!:D
I have come to the conclusion everything that carries fluid needs to be glued.

Good Luck with the build;)

[TheTree]

Well as Pete surmised and as I feared the rocker gear is none to healthy.

When I saw the muck under the rocker assemblies my first thought was oil starvation and sadly that looks to be the case.

There are grooves in the rocker shafts and of course corresponding wear in the rockers :(

So it's a set of rockers as well, I am not a happy camper :mad:

Lets hope the bottom end bearings are in better shape because their oil galleries are much bigger and less likely to get clogged up

Steve

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Steve, I know its not a good time:angel:,, but any chance of some pics of the wear/grooves?

[banarcus]

I note the permatex black says to put it on, hand tighten until some silicone oozes out, then leave for 24 hours before torquing. Has anyone else done this ?

c) Use a smear of Mani-seal on those pesky exhaust gaskets !

Hopefully that will keep things good for at least another 50K :angel:

Steve

I used the permatex black on the valley gasket as per the instructions you put up. Nil problems. Also did this to the Windsor V8 in my rig now. I also used that Maniseal which sets upon being hot. Better than the orange coloured silicone.

[TheTree]

Some pics of the rocker shaft and heads as they came off

You can see pretty clearly where the heads have been leaking and the shafts speak for themselves !

Steve

[TheTree]

Ready for the heads to go back on :p

[TheTree]

Heads went on a few days ago, tomorrow the new rockers and alternator go on and we fire it up :twisted:

Steve

[ozscott]

Nice mate

[rar110]

Looking forward to news of the outcome.

[TheTree]

Well it is back together but it won't start :(

It almost fires then backfires.

We have triple checked the plug leads

I am wondering if we may have got a fuel injector connector connected to the wrong injector

I also changed the connector for the CPS, but was very careful to keep the pins the same way.

No faults come up on the nanocom, so we are a little stumped :(

Steve

[Pedro_The_Swift]

got fuel pressure?

make sure the maf push in connector is pushed in!

[TheTree]

Thanks mate,

We can smell fuel on the plugs but will check the pressure tomorrow

And we will re-check all the connectors

Steve

[TheTree]

Well we have rechecked all the connectors and they are fine all connected the same way.

We have fuel pressure and spark.

It seems for all the world like we have the plug leads wrong, but we have checked them 10 times as well

I turns over and then it seems like it tries to fire, then a little backfire. That's all that happens :(

Approaching maximum frustration level ! :confused:

Steve

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Does this have a crank angle sensor?

[TheTree]

It does have a crank angle sensor and we have double checked that the connector I replaced is correct.

Also it is not throwing any codes, it's like we have the plug leads connected wrongly but we have checked those about 50 times as well :mad:

Steve

[Pedro_The_Swift]

just for confirmation--
;)

[PLR]

G`day .

if you battery is not 100% charged it would be a good start point .

No matter if it seems to be spinning well enough check the voltage .

[TheTree]

just for confirmation--
;)

Thanks Mate but that is the Thor coil pack layout. I have been unable to find a good gems one but I have a spare coil rail so we used that to triple check

Steve

[TheTree]

G`day .

if you battery is not 100% charged it would be a good start point .

No matter if it seems to be spinning well enough check the voltage .

Battery is very new and fully charged :(

Thanks
Steve

[Battler]

Have you checked the earth lead from the head to firewall?

[p38arover]

Steve, if you need me to send up my spare coil pack again, I haven't unpacked it since you sent it back.

[benji]

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[TheTree]

Well it turns out that the coil pack connector got some crap in it which was causing the issue

Cleaned it up and hey presto it's running

and it's smooth and quiet :D

Steve

[TheTree]

Steve, if you need me to send up my spare coil pack again, I haven't unpacked it since you sent it back.

Thanks Ron but it looks like I am all go again :D

[davidsonsm]

Great result. You must be ecstatic. Well worth the perserverance.

[TheTree]

Great result. You must be ecstatic. Well worth the perserverance.

I am pretty happy with the results, it's running as smooth as silk :p

Steve

[TheTree]

Hi

I filled it with some shell DX-3 oil I got at a good price from SuperCrap and drove about 500K

The oil still looked pretty clean on the dipstick. I then added a bottle of nulon engine flush (while cold) and ran it for 10 minutes.

What came out when we drained the oil was black as the ace of spades ! This was with a very clean top end as well

Now planning to do another oil change and flush after 5K

Pic attached

Steve

[Keithy P38]

Oh wow!

[banarcus]

Give it a couple more go's and your motor will be as clean as a whistle.

[TheTree]

I am viewing this exercise as a blessing in disguise. What would have happened eventually is that a rocker would have seized and probably put a valve through a piston and who knows what else :o

Steve

[ozscott]

How is engine going mate and did you get to 100 pounds?

Cheers

[TheTree]

How is engine going mate and did you get to 100 pounds?

Cheers

Mate

It's going well, and I am pretty sure I got it to 100 lbs in three stages :p