Gearbox Oil

[whitehillbilly64]

What does everyone use, that is easy to get hold of ????
Would this GL4 be ok for our Northern NSW/ SE Qld climate ????

75W-80 Smooth Shift Manual Gearbox and Transaxle Oil - Nulon Products Australia (http://www.nulon.com.au/products/Gear_and_Differential_Oils/75W-80_Smooth_Shift_Manual_Gearbox_and_Transaxle_Oil)

Thanks.
whitehillbilly

[Blknight.aus]

it'll be fine

[whitehillbilly64]

Thanks Dave,
would that be the same for the Fairey OD unit ????

whitehillbilly

[JDNSW]

Yes.

John

[whitehillbilly64]

Thanks John.

[Blknight.aus]

Yes.

John

concur.

the stock Series any is a 2 oil machine. Engine oil (15/40wish) for the engine and 80/90 for everything else that has oil in it.

[123rover50]

I have been using GL5:( for the past year or so.
Now a supplier has found me a 75/90 GL4 which I have ordered and will do a drain and replace.
What damage is likely to be seen with this use of a GL5?
Does it pit the bronze sleeve and synchros or what?
Will they disintegrate or will it take longer than a couple of years to see any negative affect?

[whitehillbilly64]

Hi 123Rover50.
If you Google search, some say they have been using GL5 for years, in a series Land Rover, others say the chemicals attacks the bronze bushes.
Yet there appears to be no clear evidence, to say that is so.
Seems mostly hear say.
I would like to hear from any members who have rebuilt 50 or so Land Rover gearboxes running GL5 for 5 years to tell us different.
Anyway I like mineral oil, don't know why but always run it in my vehicles.
So I intend to run, in my gearbox the closest I can get to the Original, cheap and local, and available.
That being what I listed from the local auto shop. ( GL4 and they give me a good price )
Look forward to the feed back. :cool:

whitehillbilly

[gromit]

It seems to depend on what was used to give the GL5 oil it's extreme pressure characteristics. My local oil blender said that their GL5 should be OK but then suggested that they blend me some GL4.

Taking that into account maybe some GL5's are OK and others may cause problems with bronze bushes etc. in older boxes/diffs.
With that in mind why take the risk ?


Colin

[Blknight.aus]

the series box wont care. (especially not a II or IIA box)

the diffs and tcase definitely wont.

the biggest issue you're going to have with the "thinner" modern gear oils is keeping the stuff in the box.

IF you need to you can even put cooking oil in to get you home.

[whitehillbilly64]

Good explanation........
http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf

whitehillbilly

[whitehillbilly64]

Sorry Admin,
Just thought it was just a link.

whitehillbilly

[Warb]

I've just been going through the same investigation, and also found the Richard Widman document shown above. Richard runs an oil company, so presumably he knows what he's talking about.

Though I no longer own any old tractors and therefore cannot comment on the current situation, it can't be more than 5 years ago that the oil company's agricultural reps were selling and recommending oils specifically for "yellow metal" compatibility. Whilst it is possible that the formulations have changed and the modern oils are indeed safe with yellow metals, it is of course equally possible that providing the correct products to a small "classic" market is not profitable, and the risks associated with recommending the wrong product (especially to low use classic cars) are outweighed by the costs saved in not carrying low turnover products. In any case, most gear oils on the shelf in my local stores are GL5 products.

Roamerdrive (previously Roverdrive) recommend a synthetic GL4 oil (Castrol Syntrans 75W/90 Multivehicle) in their installation manual, but it's not available in Australia. We do have Syntrans 75W/85, which is also a GL4, and a couple of companies import and sell Redline MTL, which is also a Roamerdrive recommendation, and Redline MT-90. I contacted Roamerdrive directly and (contrary to their installation guide) they recommended against using synthetic oils in high ambient temperatures because "they tend to weep out and are a bit thin so makes things noisy". They recommended Penrite Mild EP as the best choice in Australia.

Castrol sell Syntrans 75W/85 as a GL4 synthetic, and their technical rep. suggested it would be OK. They also sell a heavy transport product, Syntrans 75W/90 Heavy Duty which is synthetic GL4 but on paper it has significantly higher viscosity than the normal "high street" products. In the UK Castrol still sell EP-90 in old style tins for classic cars, and it can be bought on eBay and shipped over, though the freight cost is high.

Penrite's product selector recommends "Mild EP" from their classic vehicle range, but as an EP-90 replacement for the gearbox and Fairey overdrive their technical staff suggested Trans Gear 75W/90 which is a GL5 product. They stated that the additives would not attack yellow metal, but if the Richard Widman document is to be believed then direct chemical attack is not actually the issue. They also produce Trans Gear 75W/80, which is GL4, but they didn't mention it as a recommendation.

HiTec oils list a 75w/90 GL4 Gear Oil on their web page, but I have no idea how good it is or where to buy it.

At present I have not 100% decided on a product, but based on The Richard Widman explanation I have decided to stick with a GL4 oil. I'm leaning towards Penrite's Mild EP but I've not completely ruled out Redline MT90.

[JDNSW]

I should perhaps comment that the wear to synchromesh problems described above can be entirely avoided by simply driving so as to not use the synchromesh - i.e double declutch every change. This should prove no hardship to drivers of Series 1 & 2, who are used to doing this anyway for the first two gears.

John

[Busted Syncro]

G'day All,

I can give you some positive feedback on Castrol Syntrans 75w/85 GL4 manual transmission oil. Have been using this oil since 2012 in a S2a 1966 SWB transfer and gearbox. Before I fitted a roamadrive did my research as you are doing. Ray at roamadrive gave me good advice. They have an excellent article on the use of synthetic GL4 oil in the roamadrive.
When changing over to this thinner oil I replaced all the external oil seals on transfer and gearbox. Used Viton seals.
Most important is the transfer rear output seal. Used speedie sleeve and viton here. The roamdrive needs the oil level increased in the transfer box and you use about 3.25 lts and 0.5 ltrs in the O/D. So this seal is flooded with oil. Oil is available from Burson and bought 20 ltrs.(the Ford Focus uses it as well).Thinner oil means you have to slow down the gear changes slightly when oil hot and slightly more gear noise noticed however, that's included with a LandRover. Don't park on very steep slopes with bonnet facing down. Miss the smell of EP oil in the cabin on a hot day!!!!!. No known issues with this oil and long drain times make up for the extra cost.
Fit a magnetic drain plug to the gearbox.
Chris

[Blknight.aus]

its a series.

go to kmart.

buy the cheapest brand gear oil they have that says 80/90 on it.

thats what the series wants. just give it to it regularly

if you cant find it at kmart goto supercheap anything that has the exact numbers 80/90 on the front of it will do

I found about 10 products that are suitable from searching the online website. if you widen the range to include the 75-90 ranges you get even more choices.

I would advise to avoid the single weight oils. but more because I just couldnt be bothered opening up and researching any more product SDS's

before you ask...

Penrite Gear Oil - 80W-90, 2.5 Litre - Supercheap Auto Australia (http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/Penrite-Gear-Oil-80W-90-2-5-Litre.aspx?pid=342306#Recommendations)
or
Nulon Gearbox & Differential Oil - 80W-90, 4 Litre - Supercheap Auto Australia (http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/Nulon-Gearbox-Differential-Oil-80W-90-4-Litre.aspx?pid=164759#Recommendations)

IF I had to pick 2

[Aussie Bob]

Well, I headed into Super Cheap Auto and cam home with the stuff Hillbilly first posted which is the Nulon Smooth Shift GL4 75W-80. I am stunned at how runny it is, very easy to fill the gearbox and transfer case and no gear oil smell. Still haven't tried my rebuilt gearbox though, so no idea how it will go noise wise. I have also changed both diff oils, these also got same. What came out was like honey, what went in was more like water! I am thinking this stuff is just too runny for the front swivel joints though, I am thinking of a 140 weight for these but any suggestions are welcome.

[Warb]

I found about 10 products that are suitable from searching the online website. if you widen the range to include the 75-90 ranges you get even more choices.

If you'd spent $2K+ on an overdrive whose manufacturer specifically states NEVER to use a GL5 oil, you'd put a GL5 oil in it?

[Blknight.aus]

If you'd spent $2K+ on an overdrive whose manufacturer specifically states NEVER to use a GL5 oil, you'd put a GL5 oil in it?

I wouldn't fit an overdrive. Its a series

[mick88]

the series box wont care. (especially not a II or IIA box)

the diffs and tcase definitely wont.

the biggest issue you're going to have with the "thinner" modern gear oils is keeping the stuff in the box.

IF you need to you can even put cooking oil in to get you home.


I fitted a roamerdrive a few years back and I am running a Mobil 75W-90 GL4 mineral oil in the gearbox and transfer case. I also fitted the cooling sump cover on the transfer case. My gearbox is fairly buggered but doesn't jump out of gear and I had put it in temporarily about ten years ago whilst I reconditioned the original which was far better than this one.
I just haven't got around to re-fitting the reconditioned box.


Like Blknight says, keeping the thinner oil within the confines of the gearbox/TC is almost an impossibility. It seems to have drips where there isn't even an exit point. I am sure it soaks through the alloy housing. I also run 3.54 diffs and a while back before the Melrose event I thought I might change back to the standard 4.77's seeing that I now have the overdrive and that we also intended to tow a trailer the 5-600 kays to Melrose. Big Mistake! the transmission noise was horrid, possibly exacerbated by the thin oil (75W-90), but it drove us mad, couldn't think, let alone have a conversation. At the last minute I even swapped the wheels from our perentie in an attempt to slow the drive train down a bit and reduce the noise. Once we got home the 3.54's went straight back in. I would like to go back to a thicker oil if I could find one that wasn't detrimental to the roamerdrive.


Stick with the Treacle Billy!!!


Cheers, Mick.

[Warb]

From what I can establish, the "W" rating on gear oils (which supposedly defines the low temperature "winter" viscosity) is actually based on the temperature at which a defined viscosity occurs. As such it will also impact the curve of viscosity against temperature, but because the changes are very rapid at the low temperature end of the graph, the real-world impact of going from 85W to 80W is probably fairly minimal other than at temperatures towards freezing point and below.

In reality, the rate of change in viscosity is very rapid at low temperatures, and then starts to stabilise. So an 80W/90 gear oil may be 150,000cP at -26C, 150cP at 40C and 15cP at 100C. So apart from a gearbox being driven from cold in low temperatures, the "W" figure is largely meaningless. However because of the difficulty of making mineral oil behave this way (and remain stable under shear), most gear oils below 80W/x are synthetic or semi synthetic.

To me, what seems important is the 40C and 100C viscosity, as these figures are more relevant to my usage. I am far more likely to drive a Series LR in the summer, when the ambient temperature is >25C.

40C and 100C viscosities are below:

Castrol EP90 GL4 - 178 / 16.4 (not available in Australia)
Penrite 80W/90 GL5 - 152 / 15
Penrite Mild EP GL4 - 320 /24.2
Redline MT90 75W/90 GL4 - 90 / 15.6
Nulon 80W/90 GL5 - 137 / 14.5


As expected, the multigrade oils are all thinner at high temperatures than straight EP90. The Widman document suggests this is because they are not true multigrades with viscosity modifiers, but are simply blended towards the lower end of the acceptable high temperature range, to ensure they also meet the low temperature requirements. It is also interesting that the Redline MT90, whilst thinner at low temperatures is actually the closest to EP90 at 100C. The viscosity specification for SAE90 gear oil is 13.5-18.5 at 100C, SAE85 is 11-13.5, so the Nulon product is actually at the low end of SAE90.

Unless the viscosity/temperature curves differ radically, it seems likely that at any given operating temperature the viscosities of the non-synthetic oils will remain in the same relative order, so the Nulon 80w/90 will always be the thinnest, and all the multigrades will be thinner than EP90.

Penrite Mild EP, at 24.2cSt, is actually just inside SAE140 (24 to 32.5), even though they classify it as SAE110, but both Penrite and Roamerdrive recommend it. The reality is that this just means it has the same viscosity as the other oils do when they're a few degrees cooler!

Personally I'd prefer to avoid any possible GL5/yellow metal issues, so I'm going GL4. Whilst Mild EP is, on paper, outside "EP90" specification, to me the downside of a slightly stiffer gear change for a few minutes on a cold morning is outweighed by the reduced noise (and Roamerdrive recommendation) the rest of the time. Given the time, effort and expense of restoring a classic car, I'm willing to splash out on the ha'p'orth of tar....

[gromit]

Not sure about the tolerance on the SAE categories but a few years back I was after a straight 40 and the Shell technical helpline suggested their agricultural 30 (for lawnmowers) was at the top end of 30 and very close to straight 40.
That would explain why different manufacturers products have different viscosity but still call it 'SAE 90'

Some info here Motor Oil Viscosity Grades Explained in Layman's Terms (http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/)


For years I've used straight EP90 but now there is 75W90, 80W90 etc. etc. which supposedly offer better gear selection when cold.

I buy direct from a blender (much, much cheaper than SuperCheap etc.) and they felt that their GL5 was 'OK' for older gearboxes but then offered to blend some GL4. This suggests that how they get the GL5 spec. may differ from company to company but they weren't willing to take the gamble.
It's been GL4 for me ever since.

Here's the 'Widman' article mentioned by Warb http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrSbmKlFDtWvR8ADXAL5gt.;_ylu=X3oDMTEzOGJjNWV tBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDQVVDMDA4XzEEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1446741286/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.widman.biz%2fuploads%2fTransax le_oil.pdf/RK=0/RS=91d4oCLJnK0qTACfH1nMhykcsdM-


Colin

[whitehillbilly64]

Been looking at this also,

Castrol Manual Vmx 80w | Manual Transmission Fluids | Car | Products | Home (http://www.castrol.com/en_au/australia/products/cars/manual-transmission-fluids/manual-vmx-80w.html)

whitehillbilly

[gromit]

Confusing though.......

"SAE 80W viscosity ? SAE 75W-80 extrapolated (equivalent to 10W-30)" ??


Colin

[mick88]

extrapolate
ɪkˈstrapəleɪt,ɛk-/
verb
past tense: extrapolated; past participle: extrapolated
extend the application of (a method or conclusion) to an unknown situation by assuming that existing trends will continue or similar methods will be applicable.
"the results cannot be extrapolated to other patient groups"


estimate or conclude (something) by extrapolating.
"the figures were extrapolated from past trends"


Mathematics
extend (a graph, curve, or range of values) by inferring unknown values from trends in the known data.
"the low-temperature results can be extrapolated to room temperature"

[Warb]

Confusing though.......

"SAE 80W viscosity ? SAE 75W-80 extrapolated (equivalent to 10W-30)" ??


Colin

Gearbox oil viscosity ratings aren't the same as engine oil, so presumably SAE75W/90 gearbox oil has the same viscosity as 10W/30 engine oil. And the "multigrade" claim of 75W/80 simply means it meets both the 100C requirement for "straight 80" and thickens to 150,000 cps at the right temperature to meet the 75W classification.

It is entirely possible that an EP90 could also be classed as xxW/90 if it stayed "runny enough" at low temperatures. In the past, people only worried about how thin the oil got at high temperatures, but now they specify the low temperature end as well. Unfortunately for those of us driving old technology high mileage vehicles, the oil manufacturers chasing the W rating means the oils are often at the low end of the SAE 100C standard.

[mick88]

Confusing though.......

"SAE 80W viscosity ? SAE 75W-80 extrapolated (equivalent to 10W-30)" ??


Colin


Very, very confusing!
But remember, back in the 1970's Caltex petrol (CX3) had liquid tungsten in it!


Cheers, Mick.

[gromit]

Gearbox oil viscosity ratings aren't the same as engine oil, so presumably SAE75W/90 gearbox oil has the same viscosity as 10W/30 engine oil. And the "multigrade" claim of 75W/80 simply means it meets both the 100C requirement for "straight 80" and thickens to 150,000 cps at the right temperature to meet the 75W classification.



Doesn't it thin to the 75W ?

As I understand it that the 75W is the 'winter' or cold viscosity rating and through additives it thickens to an SAE 80 at 100C.


Colin

[whitehillbilly64]

I thought the same Gromit.
Lighter weight cold/startup, allowing the oil to get around easily, then thickening when warm
So would sae30 motor oil, do the same as EP90 transmission oil ????
Getting confused now..

Whitehillbilly

[gromit]

Viscosity explained.

Oil Viscosity Explained (http://www.kewengineering.co.uk/Auto_oils/oil_viscosity_explained.htm)

SAE90 gear oil is the same viscosity as high SAE40, SAE50 or SAE60 motor oils.
SAE75W Gear Oil is the same viscosity as SAE10, SAE15 or up to mid SAE20 motor oils.

Turns out rather than thickening, the rate of thinning is slowed down in a multigrade. So 75W/90 cold acts like a 75W but doesn't thin to the viscosity of a 75 when hot but to the viscosity of a 90 instead ?

I'll just keep putting the correct grade of oil in, it's worked for me so far........

Colin

[Warb]

Doesn't it thin to the 75W ?

No.

Oil gets thinner as it heats up, thicker as it cools. The aim of the manufacturer is to make it STAY thicker when it's hot, and stay thinner when cold.

So the 100C viscosity is much less than the 40C, and waaayy less than at 0C. That's why we drain the oil when it's hot, it's thinner!

The W rating is based on the temperature at which the oils thickens to a set viscosity. If it gets that thick at -12C, it is rated 85W, if at -26C it is 80W etc.

So the blender is attempting to stop the oil getting too thick at low temperatures, whilst also stopping it from getting too "runny" at high temperatures. There are three ways to achieve this:

1/ Use a synthetic oil which has a more stable viscosity profile

2/ Add viscosity modifiers that react to temperature increases

3/ Blend various mineral oils, thicker and thinner ones, to achieve a mix that stays in spec.

Synthetic oil is expensive, but most 75W/xx are synthetic simply because it's too hard to make mineral oil behave this way. Viscosity modifiers are also expensive, and may impact other aspects of gear oil performance. Option 3/, blending mineral oils to suit, allows the manufacturer to cheaply meet the 80W or 85W specification. However as a side effect of keeping the oil thin enough at low temperatures, it is often (as seen in the specs I quoted previously) also at the low end of the SAE90 high temperature viscosity. The SAE90 specification is a range, and it's easier to hit the lower end of the range - the customer, after all, is never expected to investigate any further than the shiny packaging! A straight EP90, because the low temperature viscosity is not specified, can be more easily made to stay at the high end of the SAE90 specification.

[whitehillbilly64]

MILD EP GEAR OIL SAE 110 (http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=14&id_products=80)

[Warb]

MILD EP GEAR OIL SAE 110 (http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=14&id_products=80)

Yep, that's what Global Roamer recommended for Roamerdrive equipped gearboxes in Australia. My local Auto One can get it on special order (about $16/litre), and Motofluid.com sell it for $12.50 but the delivery cost is about $25 for a box of 6 x 1L so it also ends up about $16/L but would be dirt cheap if you could pick it up (Bayswater Vic., if they allow pick-up!).

I picked mine up from Auto One this morning....

[gromit]

Starts to get expensive if you use a 'big brand name'.
I'm using a 75W/90 GL4 direct from a blender for about $24 for 5 litres (haven't purchased any for a while). Problem is you have to collect in Bayswater.
I looked into getting it Interstate for someone and because they sell through agents the price wasn't so attractive.

Penrite are in Wantirna South but I don't think they sell direct.


Colin

[mick88]

When I installed the Roamerdrive in my vehicle I chased around for a GL4 75W-90 and came up with Mobil XHP 75W-90. I had to buy a 20 litre drum as that was the smallest it came in. I think it was around the $160 mark. Also, from memory Roamerdrive recommended an oil change after a thousand or so kays. The other brand synthetics I found worked out pretty expensive per litre, especially if your going to tip them out after a thousand kays.


Cheers Mick.

[Warb]

By the time you add some freight costs and a reseller's mark-up (anywhere from 30% to 100%) you might find that the $24.50 has caught up with the Penrite price!

On the other hand, and I've never dealt directly with a blender so I don't know what their minimum batch sizes are, if you could get them to blend a straight old-fashioned EP90 and use the "AULRO Courier Service" to distribute it to strategic pick-up points, you might create an attractive group buy!! Oil isn't limited by a short shelf life, and Land Rovers use a fair amount of EP90 (more if they're leaky!) so you might find people would be happy to buy it.

Put me down for 20L of "GromitOil EP90"!!

========

Dear GromitOil,

As a classic car owner, I am very interested in your GromitOil EP90 Classic Gearbox oil. Those of us who drive such vehicles often struggle to decide which if any of the modern products will be suitable for our older cars, especially as many experts and even the oil companies themselves give contradictory information regarding the suitability of their products. It is refreshing to once again be able to purchase "the product I want", rather than being forced to buy "the product they want to sell".

Having finally sorted out my gearbox oil conundrum, could I ask if GromitOil has any plans to expand it's classic car range? I would be very interested in a good, old fashioned anti-freeze product along the lines of BlueCol or Duckhams Universal, as originally recommended for my vehicle.

Thanks in advance,

Warb

======================== ;)

[Warb]

When I installed the Roamerdrive in my vehicle I chased around for a GL4 75W-90 and came up with Mobil XHP 75W-90.

I had the same issue, so I contacted Ray at Roamerdrive about my 86" and received the following reply:

"I don't like synthetics in Series in hot climates - tends to weep out and is a bit thin so makes things noisy.. Australian Penrite has what they call a "Mild EP" GL4 gear oil that they suggest in the transfer case of Series Is and I think this will be very good."

So on his recommendation I've picked Mild EP.

To add some background that might explain my current fixation with gearbox oil, yesterday I spent $4K on a new gearbox (trade price, retail is >$5K) to go in a 170,000km 5 year old Prado 150 because the synchromesh had failed. The vehicle was regularly serviced by a local garage who (obviously) don't use genuine Toyota oils. Did they use the wrong oil? Did that cause the problem? Who knows, but in future I'll be making 100% certain that the right product is used!

[gromit]

Regarding markups etc. I agree, that's why I buy direct. Huge saving and by dealing with a blender I'm not paying a marketing & sponsorship levy.

I'll ask next week if they will supply EP90 GL4 and minimum batch size but I haven't got the time to collect, distribute etc.


Colin

[Warb]

I'll ask next week if they will supply EP90 GL4 and minimum batch size but I haven't got the time to collect, distribute etc.

If you talk to them, and if they are at all open to the idea and the batch size and price is sensible, remember our concern is the high temperature viscosity. We are looking to be right at the very top of SAE90, or ideally slightly above. The EP90 "label" is to make people comfortable that they are using the right product, but from a technical standpoint we know that Penrite already recommend Mild EP, which is right at the top of SAE110, so anything from the very top of SAE90 to mid SAE110 range would be ideal.

If it can be done at a good price, we could put it in the Group Buys forum and see if anyone is interested. If there is enough interest I'm sure the logistics of distribution can be sorted!

[whitehillbilly64]

Spoke today to a local, restorer, Mechanic,and he swears by this stuff.
Runs it in modern or old machinery.
His modern motorbikes run 5oc cooler, and the older stuff runs quieter.
Cuts back on friction, and recons the Fairly Overdrive, which he is familiar with, would run quieter and smoother, with it in.
Any one used it.
Can be used anywhere.
Just had a quick look online, and its not liked

Lucas Engine Oil Stabilizer - 1 Litre - Supercheap Auto Australia (http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/Lucas-Engine-Oil-Stabilizer-1-Litre.aspx?pid=10775#Recommendations)

whitehillbilly

[Warb]

Spoke today to a local, restorer, Mechanic,and he swears by this stuff.

It's a 100% petroleum product, which means it's "oil", and according to the TDS it's viscosity at 100C is 110cSt (in round figures SAE90 is 13 to 18, SAE250 is 48+) so it's a really thick oil.

Which means that adding it will increase the viscosity of your oil, and dilute the concentration of other additives that were in the original oil.

The shearing effect of gears makes oil become less viscous with age, so because adding this product will initially increase the viscosity of your oil (depending on the rate of addition) to way above it's labelled viscosity, the oil will take longer to drop below it's specified rating. So it "lasts longer". Although, of course, for most of it's life it is in fact out-of-spec by being too thick, and relying solely on viscosity to define oil changes is perhaps unwise.

I would assume that because it is a 100% petroleum product with a very high 100C viscosity, it probably (they don't specify) is very viscous at low temperatures, so your multigrade "W" rating will instantly disappear.

Adding this product, depending on the proportion used, increases the viscosity of your oil, and (probably) kills the "W" rating. Which is the equivalent of using (say) SAE190 or SAE250 oil, but possibly with reduced additives concentrations because of dilution. Yes, it will make the gearbox quieter. Yes the oil will stay thicker for longer. But you could achieve the same by buying SAE190, rather than 80W/90+LOS.

Now comes the real question. Would you put SAE 190 or 250 oil in your gearbox?

[whitehillbilly64]

Thanks warb,
should add he does not run a mechanical business.
Just uses it on his many bikes, cars, tractors and light machinery engines.
So using your technical knowledge, to run the available Castrol vmx 80w mentioned earlier and say, 10 mils of the Lucas ' Honey ' would we then be able to achieve something like the original 90 ????
This is a series forum, yet only a small few have posted.
What is everyone else using in there series gearbox.
Love to hear from a few more of you.
Then maybe the powers to b,e could make a sticky of the helpful bits of the thread.
Or are we just re-inventing the wheel !!!!
thanks

whitehillbilly

[gromit]

I'm using a 75W/90 in all mine without any problems to date.
I believe it's a synthetic base.

The Lucas oil stabiliser was possibly made by the blender I deal with, they have a similar product.
It's like treacle and should only be added to hot oil.
Reading the list of things it does makes me think it's distilled from snake oil.

Colin

[crackers]

This is a series forum, yet only a small few have posted.
What is everyone else using in there series gearbox.
Love to hear from a few more of you.

This conversation tends to be a bit like tossing the proverbial hand grenade into the ants nest mate, maybe this is why people are sensibly quiet ;)

My Series 1 is a long way from being on the road so I hadn't thought too much about it. However, it never have occurred to me to use anything but mineral oils of the specified grade with frequent and regular changes, just as specified. I've listened to the synthetic vs mineral oil too often on too many forums relating to old vehicles to ignore the wise old heads who all point back to what the factory said to use.

As a reference, the people who developed the engine in my MG ZR were adamant that you use a semi-synthetic oil of a particular grade. That same engine was used in the Freelander, which has a poor reputation on this forum... and people insist on using synthetic, not the semi-synthetic specified. I know from UK forums where my MG is common (they only bought 48 to Oz so there's no discussion here), that synthetic oils, failure to look after the cooling system and failing to repair the head gasket properly all lead to the sort of issues the Freelander people talk about. Again, listen to the people who made the thing in the first place.

So my thought with my Land was to always use good quality mineral oils of the grade specified and to change them regularly.

However, I haven't tried to buy said oils, I just assumed they were available and maybe that's where I'm going to run into trouble.

I've also noted that individuals work out what suits them and their vehicle and provided you change fluids often and regularly, almost anything works and so I'm not going to argue with anyone's choice.

[Blknight.aus]

I'm using a 75W/90 in all mine without any problems to date.
I believe it's a synthetic base.

The Lucas oil stabiliser was possibly made by the blender I deal with, they have a similar product.
It's like treacle and should only be added to hot oil.
Reading the list of things it does makes me think it's distilled from snake oil.

Colin

its a teflon base thing from memory, or at least it performs the same function. it gets on the hot metal bits and then sticks to it while at the same time increasing the surface tension of the oil its put into without drasitcally effecting the overall viscosity...

hows that work? roughly...

all fluids have a surface tension, for the purpose of this discussion think of it as a balloon full of water. If you use a very thin balloon you have a very pliable skin that deforms and shapes to whatever it sits on but the skin is easily penetrated.

if you use a thicker balloon the water is still the same water but the skin is harder to deform and its harder to penetrate.

There are pros and cons to each.

[Warb]

So using your technical knowledge, to run the available Castrol vmx 80w mentioned earlier and say, 10 mils of the Lucas ' Honey ' would we then be able to achieve something like the original 90 ????

From purely a viscosity standpoint, using a thicker oil whether the Lucas product or anything else, will increase the viscosity. The problem is that it also dilutes the other additives from the concentration that the manufacturer has used. So you have a thicker oil, but with reduced additive concentration. Using Penrite Mild EP also gives a higher viscosity, but with the additive concentration that the oil manufacturer specified.


However, I haven't tried to buy said oils, I just assumed they were available and maybe that's where I'm going to run into trouble.

Nailed it! You can no longer buy straight EP90. You can buy 80W/90, which in theory has the same SAE90 rating at high temperatures. The problem is that SAE90 covers a range of viscosities and to get the 80W rating when the oil is cold the manufacturers tend to steer to the lower end of the SAE90 rating. It's not an enormous issue (no issue at all for modern cars!), but when the gearboxes are old and worn a bit more viscosity is better! The other issue is the GL4/GL5 change. Opinion is divided as to whether the GL5 additives will cause damage..........


its a teflon base thing from memory, or at least it performs the same function.

You might be thinking of the moly type additives that deposit a slippery coating on the metal? The Lucas product is "100% petroleum based" so no moly or teflon. As often is the case with these products, it gives no sensible explanation of how it is supposed to work, but the TDS shows a very high viscosity so I'm guessing it just thickens the oil.

"Oils" work in 3 ways. Initially the film of oil lubricates the surfaces that are in contact. When the pressure between the surfaces overcomes the film of oil, friction modifiers (if present in the oil) take over. Lastly there are the extreme pressure "EP" additives (hence EP90, SAE90EP etc.) that form protective coatings on the gears - they are also known as anti-wear additives. The problem is that I don't recall friction modifiers or EP additives being petroleum based, which would mean that adding the Lucas product reduces the concentration of EP additives, and relies solely on the increased viscosity of the oil to maintain the "oil film" between the gears. But because they don't provide any real technical information, that's just a guess.

What really made me wonder is that apart from increasing performance, saving fuel, making the oil last longer and making the gearbox last longer, it is also claimed to "stop oil leaks". Really clever stuff!!

[gromit]

Several other 'oil stabilisers' out there.


MOREY?S? HEAVY DUTY OIL STABILIZER
USED AS DIRECTED, IS PROVEN TO:
 Reduce operating temperature in engines, gearboxes,
differentials & Hydraulics
 Stop piston wash during cold weather idling
 Eliminate dry starts ? increased engine and gear life
 Improve and sustain oil pressure
 Protect against high temperature viscosity loss
 Insure against oil breakdown in case of sudden overheating
 Reduce oil consumption
 Extend life of regular oil in all applications
 Smooth & cool hydraulic operations
 Reduce noise in transmissions & differentials
 Improve cold temperature starting: to minus 40OC
 Reduce heat, slip, grab, and leaks in automatic
transmissions
 Stop blow-by. Horsepower is increased
 Have higher index to resist thickening or thinning of
oils
 Improve engine & component cleanliness
 Improve rust & corrosion protection
 Reduce seal leakage
 Improve compression & fuel economy
 Reduce emissions


Flashlube Heavy Duty Oil Stabiliser: Flashlube fuel additives Synthetic lubricants for the automotive industry - Genuine Flashlube (http://www.flashlube.com/se/products/heavy-duty-oil-stabiliser.html)


Don't rebuild your worn engine, just run on oil stabiliser........



Colin

[Warb]

With enough additives in the fuel and oil, plus magnets on the petrol pipe, metal marbles in the fuel tank and a spiral-air-whizzer-doo-dad in the air filter hose, my 50 year old 2L engine will last forever, produce 500bhp and use less fuel than a Prius!!

[crackers]

With enough additives in the fuel and oil, plus magnets on the petrol pipe, metal marbles in the fuel tank and a spiral-air-whizzer-doo-dad in the air filter hose, my 50 year old 2L engine will last forever, produce 500bhp and use less fuel than a Prius!!

Runs on vodka does it?
Oh, that's the driver :twisted:

[Warb]

Runs on vodka does it?
Oh, that's the driver :twisted:


Nooo ociffer, thizzjuz hoctane boosder......

[harry]

With enough additives in the fuel and oil, plus magnets on the petrol pipe, metal marbles in the fuel tank and a spiral-air-whizzer-doo-dad in the air filter hose, my 50 year old 2L engine will last forever, produce 500bhp and use less fuel than a Prius!!

Don't forget the Brock electrickery corrosion bull dust thingy and the nitrogen in the tyres!

[mick88]

Found this one (80W-90) but it is listed as both GL4 and GL5 according to the helpline!
I have a full product sheet coming.


Fuchs Australia - Product Details (http://www.fuchs.com.au/Product-Details?productId=39280&productCategoryId=12)


Cheers, Mick.

[Blknight.aus]

You might be thinking of the moly type additives that deposit a slippery coating on the metal? The Lucas product is "100% petroleum based" so no moly or teflon. As often is the case with these products, it gives no sensible explanation of how it is supposed to work, but the TDS shows a very high viscosity so I'm guessing it just thickens the oil.



Lucas has more than one product, the one I was thinking of came in a whitish bottle with I think an orangy single colour label and text, when you poured it out if you didnt shake it up really well first you got a light honey coloured oil come out first and then a whitish "goop" that looked a lot like loctite 567. Once it was all shaken up the colour was more like golden syrup.

[Warb]

Found this one (80W-90) but it is listed as both GL4 and GL5 according to the helpline!
I have a full product sheet coming.

GL5 does include GL4. The issue is that GL4 and GL5 are "gear oil" specifications, rather than "gearbox oil". The specifications relate to gears turning against each other under load, but have nothing to do with synchromesh systems, and it is in synchromesh systems that the GL5 specification (possibly) starts to cause an issue.....

[whitehillbilly64]

I have ordered 6, 1 Ltd bottles of Pen rite EP Mild for Gilbert, from Repco.
Listed as $19.95 per Lt, they said they would look after me.
Its coming with the next order, so no freight.
$12 per bottle.
Whitehillbilly

[B.S.F.]

I've come to the conclusion that if you use modern thinner gear oils like Castrol Manual VMX-M API 75-80 GL4 or Caltex Easy Shift API 75-90 GL4 etc. in Series vehicles you can no longer rely on the old paper gaskets or felt smeared with grease as recommended in the workshop manuals. You also have to use modern sealants. Paper gaskets might work if you use your car for short trips only, but if you use it for touring in hot weather that thinner oil just seeps through every joint. .W.

[Warb]

It might not just be viscosity related, modern oils have more additives to make them cling to metal surfaces which could also make them more prone to wicking?

Additionally I have noticed that there is a massive variance in the thickness of "the same" paper gaskets from different sources. I have some drive flange gaskets that are very thin and made of a hard paper, and some that feel 5 or 10 times thicker and are far softer. On less than perfectly flat mating faces a thicker gasket will seal better, but if the gasket compresses with time the seal may fail and the fixings may lose torque... You pays your money and you takes your choice!

It is also worth remembering that we are talking about old machinery, there is a fair chance that the years have taken their toll and surfaces are no longer perfectly flat and true.

My approach is to use Blue Hylomar spray on the gasket, then torque up the fixings, retorque after 30 minutes or so, and then check again after a few days/weeks use.

I will say I've found that the Roamerdrive aluminium base plate for the transfer box (which comes with a thick gasket) seems to do a very good job of keeping the oil in!

[mick88]

I might have to try some of that Warb as my Roamerdrive sump plate started with the odd drip here and there and now seems to leave oil drips wherever I park the old girl. It appeared that the initial leaks were from the retaining bolts, so may have been weeping down the thread holes.
When I reseal it I will put some sealer on the threads as well.


Cheers, Mick.

[Warb]

My Roamerdrive plate is good, but now I have leak from (I think) the front output housing gasket. So it will come off and get a new gasket and output seal. It never ends.....

Genuine Blue Hylomar is good stuff, developed by Rolls Royce for jet engines. I've been using it for the last 30 years or so. I've only recently started using the aerosol version, mainly because it was the only genuine Hylomar I could get locally, but it seems equally good and easier to apply to gaskets. Having finally run out of the genuine "squeeze tube" product, a couple of weeks ago I purchased a tube of Permatex that was specifically labelled as equivalent to Blue Hylomar, because I couldn't find the genuine product locally. I haven't yet tried it, but there is a statement on the website of the Hylomar distributor in the USA that "Currently Permatex is NOT offering the true Hylomar material". Make of that what you will!

[gromit]

Genuine Blue Hylomar is good stuff, developed by Rolls Royce for jet engines. I've been using it for the last 30 years or so. I've only recently started using the aerosol version, mainly because it was the only genuine Hylomar I could get locally, but it seems equally good and easier to apply to gaskets. Having finally run out of the genuine "squeeze tube" product, a couple of weeks ago I purchased a tube of Permatex that was specifically labelled as equivalent to Blue Hylomar, because I couldn't find the genuine product locally. I haven't yet tried it, but there is a statement on the website of the Hylomar distributor in the USA that "Currently Permatex is NOT offering the true Hylomar material". Make of that what you will!

Paddocks carry Hylomar (if you happen to be ordering parts from them) RTC3347 | Hylomar Universal Blue Medium 100g - Paddock Spares (http://www.paddockspares.com/rtc3347-hylomar-universal-blue-medium-100g.html)
Blackwoods also list it https://www.blackwoods.com.au/part/00313922/compound-gasket-hylomar-hyl250-250ml

I've been using Permatex Form-A-Gasket 2 for some years without any issues.


Colin