LR Rims & Control Rider Suspension - the saga continues - arrrrgh

[gavinwibrow]

I have received some valuable feedback from those taking the time to comment on my previous threads over the last 6 months trying to fit LR alloys to our impending new superannuation depleter/caravan. Many grateful thanks to all contributors.

After being told D2 alloys (to match my D2a Dan) wont fit (rim centre too small), it eventually transpired that RRC/D1/Defender should work. So I express freighted a specially bought good ex Defender set with tyres from Freo to Melbourne.

Hadn't heard anything for almost 2 months, until initially being told (not until after us enquiring AFTER due delivery date as to what was happening generally) that the guy in Melb who fits the special front veranda was on holidays and was not due back until 2 weeks after our ETA.

Then, a couple of days a go, a bombshell - they now claim they can't fit the standard Defender alloys to their Control Rider stub axles and I would have to select a set of rims from their standard range and further they would have to be 5 stud (presumably all at my cost) - YEAH, RIGHT.

No reasons or explanation given, so I'm following that up first, but I'm highly suspicious to say the least.

I'm keeping my powder dry, but am expecting the involvement of consumer affairs or similar in some form for specific performance if they don't get their act together. Don't you just love interstate transactions.

At 3.5T for the van, I can't afford to stuff up on the rims. My gut feel is I may end up with D1 steelies or using a set of old RRC 15" alloys I had other plans for - on the assumption that D2 steelies wont fit - I could not be that lucky/them that stupid could I?

They say the van is ready apart from sorting rims. Any other brilliant ideas?

I feel for the majority of honest, hard working Australians, but why are their efforts ruined by so many stupid customer related stuffups and giving the place a bad name. Maybe I have to join the "propensity for buying faulty goods group!!!!

Stage 1 of rant over, but watch this space as I hopefully recover from my 2nd total knee replacement op last week.

[alien]

Ye old double post syndrome :confused:

[alien]

Are they using a standard Al-Ko brake drum with thier suspension?

I've fitted Defender alloy rims to 10" duel bearing drums.
To do it we had to have a slip ring machined to fit the rims and the drum was machined to suit.
I also had the correct studs fitted so the Land Rover nuts are used.

AL-KO Electric Drum Brakes (http://www.alko.com.au/vehicle-technology-catalogue/electric-drum-brakes/)


3/4 of the way down this page is interesting...
http://www.alko.com.au/vehicle-technology-catalogue/electric-drum-brakes/electric-brake-drums/

[gavinwibrow]

Thanks Kyle - interesting, especially as I specified 3.5T max (which I guess is 2.0 or 2.5T per axle) AND 12" electric brakes. I'll keep your info on hand until they respond to my questions. Cheers

[Rextheute]

In my experience , it is problematic to fit or hubs as al-Ko will de-rate the load capacity .
3.5 t is a big van - generally to fit lr hubs they will use slimline bearings and a max cap of 600kg a hub , the hubs will need to be machined down . So , less "meat"
Or use parallel bearings which can be rated a lot higher , but the studs n nuts will need to be genuine .

If it were me and what I recommend to my customers is -
" go with Toyota or Nissan 5 or 6 stud , they are standard , parts are easily replaced if required , ask at Mt dare for a Land Rover hub or stud/nut and it's a long wait "

No offence but there is a reason why it's done that way , carry extra tyre carcasses if required , don't believe the hype on matching wheels etc - from a resale perspective your market is exceptionally limited .
Except to aulro members of course !


Take all of the above with a grain of salt if you disagree .

Read your post again ,
Could be the centre bore is an issue .
Ask some questions ,
Are the wheels load rated ? What is it .(liability)
Which bearing sets are they using al-Ko use good jap or us bearings - the ones you need will suit a 65mm axle
Could be a stud issue , size and spacing - again liability .

Truthfully will you be towing a 3.5 t behemoth "off road " it will be a big unit - like towing a block of flats ��

[MR LR]

I'm curious to know what the issue is.

Defender alloys EASILY fit over all the Alko hubs, including parallel bearings.

I am going to assume they've stuffed up and made the axles too narrow (to suit toyota offset) and have decided that's your problem...

[Rextheute]

Ahhhh mr lr , an option I hadn't considered .

A good point , well made , add that one to the question list .

[Rok_Dr]

I'd echo Rex's and Will's comments.

Unless there is a specific reason (like a defender becoming the tug in the forward planning) then if D2 rims don't fit then go for the most common option with respect to stud patterns.

But having been spannered by offset myself when changing the rims on my trailer and having to go for a longer axle, I think Will may be on the money.

I also has a similar problem when the trailer was originally built. They forgot to fit wider guards and when I went to pick it up the wheels were proud of the mud guards. A small discussion ensued and the end result was they had to build me another trailer and sell first with narrow rims.

Cheers

Steve

[gavinwibrow]

Thanks for all the comments. I too think they have well and truly stuffed up unless their most recent comments are valid as copied below. The LR Def alloys do have a smaller centre than 124 mm, albeit being some distance from the stub axle/brakes - about 90mm ? from dim memory.
At the end of the day, it's their problem to fix, and ironically I'm in to hurry to take possession following my knee replacement op!! I might have to prevail on one of the many Melb aurlo gurus to straighten them out - a bit far to walk from here!

"The main reason why the wheel won't fit, is the snout on our hub drum is 93mm from the face to the end of the grease cap.
Now when we go to fit the hub to the wheel, we have to knock out the centre cap of the wheel for the grease cap to protrude through.
When doing that the grease cap then fouls on the centre hole of the wheel, so the centre hole of the wheel has to be machined bigger.

If the customer wants to make the centre hole bigger that's fine, but I'm not going to tamper with that. And I don't think you guys will either.

Secondly, we have to use the melb tr. 2 piece hub drum to do the stud pattern, which means you ( GnS ) have to make the control rider susp with these drums. Which means different stub axles as well.

Also the Land rover wheels come in 2 offsets 1, 33mm positive and 2, 57mm positive. When speaking with Salv Monday he said you make the susp to suit a 0 offset wheel."

I've told them that worst case scenario, I can access a set of LR D1/RRC/Defender 16" steelies with 124mm centre hole, or a set of RRC aftermarket 15" alloys also with 124mm centre hole but unknown offset. Not the best look though.
The van will actually be under 3T loaded, but registered for 3.5T just in case

[alien]

Are they using Al-Ko hubs or their own in house drum?


I'll slip you a PM and maybe we can chat on the phone about it.

[MR LR]

I will whip a wheel off our car trailer tonight and put an alloy on it to see. It has alko parallel bearing hubs. Unless they've changed the design to "****** huge" in the last couple of years.

In the past we've had RRS alloys on parallel bearing hubs, albeit with 16mm spacers and longer studs to suit. D1/Defender is much larger internally...

[alien]

Looking at the web site they are not using Al-Ko hubs.

The pictures show a long bearing hub.

[MR LR]

Hmm... by my measurements the spigot is actually too deep for the alloys, I'll be damned. There must be a different version with a shorter spigot that I've used on other trailers.

So there's two issues, your wheels won't fit the hubs, nor will they suit the offset they've used. Learn something new everyday.

[alien]

Hmm... by my measurements the spigot is actually too deep for the alloys, I'll be damned. There must be a different version with a shorter spigot that I've used on other trailers.

So there's two issues, your wheels won't fit the hubs, nor will they suit the offset they've used. Learn something new everyday.

I measured my old Al-Ko at @65mm from wheel mounting face to end of the bearing cap.
The duel alloy's are @70mm internally so at least the cap can't fall off.

Unfortunately this does not help with this situation with a longer snout.

[gavinwibrow]

Hi Kyle. Many thanks for the PM, and ironically, the answers have started coming in, with more to follow (dealing with 3 companies), so will wait until tomorrow, then provide what will hopefully be a comprehensive and satisfactory resolution. Cheers Gavin

[gavinwibrow]

I thought I edited this to include Will and provide an update, but it appears to have disappeared. Great help guys and will provide more confirmed info tomorrow. It appears the snout is too big!!!!! Cheers Gavin

[LandyAndy]

To get the thing moving get a set of Defender steel rims,it will negate the issue for now.Im sure they are fairly available ex new Defenders.
I had to bore my D2 alloys to suit the electric brakes on my camper trailer.Later I was given a D2 steel rim,it fits perfectly.
You can machine your alloys later,if thats how you decide to go.
Andrew

[gavinwibrow]

THE END - and many thanks to all of the many who offered help!

After all that, including buying a local set of Defender alloys with good tyres and express sending them to Vic, yes G&S (the AU gurus) say they cannot fit them to the Control Rider suspension because their stub protrusion wont fit through the centre LR hole. Would have been nice if they had checked and told me that 8 weeks ago. Would have saved a lot of heartache and unnecessary worrying.

So, now we are going back to square 1 and fitting their standard off road alloys and standard 10 ply LT 265 75 16R tyres - at no extra cost to either the local dealer or me ( I was originally supplying the LR rims as part of the overall cost/deal).
At least SWAMBO is happy that we will have standard/saleable (toyo 200 I think) rim centres, but I now have a spare set of can't use Defender tyres/rims (once they come back from the dark world).

As one who came over many years ago to improve the breed, and apologies to the millions of good eastern staters, why wasn't Jesus born in the ES?
Because they couldn't find 3 wise men!

Rant over, a reasonable outcome for all, and thanks again for all your help on this definitely the best website around.

Now to get these bloody staples out of my knee and get my life back (what's left of it).

[alien]

Good see you have got to the bottom of the issue.
I wonder if this is the first time they have had this rim over axle occurrence.






If your not needing the Defender rims why not list them in the Markets section?
Could sell them from where they are or a member could do a temporary storage maybe?
It would save on transport costs for you.

[gavinwibrow]

Thanks Alien. I can get the tyres/rims returned to Perth at no charge, and potentially more saleable here albeit a smaller,slower market, given I paid top $ being in a hurry.

Which reminds me, if my offer is accepted, I'll have a D2 rear section set of sliders/fridge slide frame to get from Warragul to here. I was hoping to put it on JAYBOROVERS trailer, but I think I'm too late/have missed the boat/truck.
Again, thanks for your generous offers of assistance. Cheers Gavin

[jc109]

Hi Gavin,

Sorry to hear of your saga.

Without wanting to profit from your misfortune, I may be interested in your wheels and tyres.

I'm about to post in my trailer buying advice thread asking for tips on where to buy wheels but this may just solve the problem.

Let me know your thoughts.

[gavinwibrow]

G'day (moniker rings a bell or two).
Feel free to contact me any-time by PM, or mobile zero 438 zero zero 3 1 zero 5.
Tyres should be back within a week and available to view in Beeliar. Probably will have at least 2 full LR sets after sorting out my needs. Cheers Gavin

[MR LR]

I just pulled the hubs off my car trailer as I am mucking around trying to fit D1 steel wheels to it.

They are actually 2 tonne hubs, not parallel (1600kg), hence bigger.

So I believe my original comment still stands, that Land Rover rims fit Parallel hubs.

I'd say that's your problem, you have 2t hubs aswell.

[gavinwibrow]

Could be right Will. Caravan arrived just before Xmas, and now due to be handed over early next week after delayed pre-delivery. Will check when it's finally in my possession, just to satisfy myself 100% after all the stuff ups.

You wouldn't believe it, but when the 4 "not able to be fitted to Control Rider hubs" rims/tyres were coming back to WA, someone half hitched one off the truck in Vic, so the poor transport Co is now up for a new rim ($540 ex Southerns) and new Bridgestone Dueller AT LT 265 75 R16 tyre (697 as 693 is now superseded) at $335 fitted/balanced - ouch.

So will have to advertise 5 Defender (Blast?) alloys for sale when I get the replacement hopefully in 7 - 10 days. Then I'll have less tyres/rims than you - currently at 26 plus.

At the risk of hijacking my own thread, when Blknight was in Perth over Xmas we were going to try an experiment with modifying the generator and/or van a/c system to make it more of a soft start arrangement so I could safely use my 2KVa Honda genset on hot days/nights. Unfortunately the dealer would not let us near the van (insurance concerns) so that is a project in waiting. Might be a trip to Katherine in the wings.

If Dave's idea worked, as I'm sure it would have, would be a boon to many grey nomads and others. Couldn't get him to think about patenting or selling the idea or manufacturing etc though.

[Graeme]

So I believe my original comment still stands, that Land Rover rims fit Parallel hubs.
D4 rims did not fit my 1600 kg parallel hubs without machining the hubs and then would have required spacers to clear the caps had I wanted to fit the D4 rims. The X5 rims I was fitting did not require spaces because their hub cap hole was large enough to clear the hub's cap.

[MR LR]

D4 rims did not fit my 1600 kg parallel hubs without machining the hubs and then would have required spacers to clear the caps had I wanted to fit the D4 rims. The X5 rims I was fitting did not require spaces because their hub cap hole was large enough to clear the hub's cap.
Sorry, was referring to Defender/D1/RRC.

D2 and D3 wheels fit with the spacer and machining like you say.

[LandyAndy]

Sorry, was referring to Defender/D1/RRC.

D2 and D3 wheels fit with the spacer and machining like you say.

The original poster was refering to Defender alloy wheels,they will not fit,steel ones will.
Andrew

[MR LR]

The original poster was refering to Defender alloy wheels,they will not fit,steel ones will.
Andrew
I think we had that pretty well covered ;)

Issue is control rider is 2 tonne, not parallel like we thought.