The "New" Defender, ...Your Thoughts?

[Pickles2]

Some say that there will not be a "new" Defender, that JLR have lost the plot, they're not interested in the Defender "market", whatever that is, any more, they're only interested in shiny, up market, "Chapel St", Trendy vehicles like Evoque, Discovery Sport, Range Rover, etc etc.
I disagree, I believe, that whilst I may not want another JLR product named Defender, there will definitely be one, but I, like everybody else as far as I know, have no idea what will constitute any "New" Defender.
So, here's your chance. What will it be like, what market will it attract, and when do you think it will arrive,....if ever (if that is your opinion of course).
My opinion is that there will definitely be one, it will have an, on the small side, Ingenium diesel engine, be roughly (maybe a bit bigger) the same size as the current Defender, and there will be some "Old Defender", in the "shape" of the new one. Driveline?...I have no idea. Price?...$50-$80K, depending upon spec. Arrival, or at least we will have an idea of what it will be like because JLR will have released something...2018.
Of course I really have no idea at all, these are just a few of my thoughts, which may turn out to be absolute rubbish.
Pickles.

[tonyci]

Not sure either. I think it could be a very basic discovery, a commercial version if you like.
Chees
Tony

[PAT303]

My reply is simple,Land Rover aren't stupid.They will build a very good, better/best ever Defender that will be sold all over the world along with the other models in the line.I do not have any issue's at all except it will have to have all the modern gear fitted,eg emissions/pedestrian safety/crash safety/crash avoidance,in other words crap it doesn't need but we can't get away from the fact we live in the modern world which means we have to protect dumb arses from their own stupidity and incompetency as well as not forgetting any and all forms of personal responsibility.And lets never forget the baby seals :D. Pat

[Tombie]

I believe it will be innovative, capable and best in class.

People laughed when VW entered the 4 door Utility market but they took their time, and came up trumps with a quality product.

I'm sure that's what will happen here.

Even better if they do multiple engine options - small engine for EU compliance and a bigger, more powerful engine for OS (after all the Yanks will want something grunty as well).

[spudboy]

Haven't we got a long thread the same as this already - started by Pickles2 as well?

[frantic]

I've got my $$$ on at least two different defenders. A slightly bigger than current dual cab(130inch), wagon(115ish inch) and a ute with hopefully 2-4 engine choices and then a smaller series 1/ evoke size suv two door and 4 ,maybe convertible like a wrangler or a RAV4/vita ra/ xtrail /crv/ forester etc.

[Pickles2]

Haven't we got a long thread the same as this already - started by Pickles2 as well?

If you read my last post in the thread, titled, & about "Carsales", and yes, started by me, you will see my words to the effect that the "old thread" started by me, was NOTHING to do with the "New" Defender,...it was & still is, intended to be for the purpose of monitoring Defenders on carsales,....NOTHING to do with the "New" Defender at all, (thread has been somewhat hi-jacked)....hense this thread, which hopefully WILL be about your thoughts, if you have any, on the "New" Defender.
Pickles.

[spudboy]

OK - no worries.

I am waiting like everyone else with high hopes. They do such a good job of Range Rover and Discovery (and perhaps the Evoque too - but I don't know anything about them).

They mush have a fabulous war chest of money to throw at it. Unlike the old Leyland days with RR and SIII.

This time, when ever they are released, I am going to wait patiently for a couple of years until the main bugs have been ironed out, and then dive in.

[Beery]

I think/hope its going to throw the yardstick way ahead of the pack with engineering that other ute builders will take years to get their head around. A bit like the current Defender did all those years ago i.e. coils all round, discs all round, permanent (read 'proper') 4wd.

Id expect to see idependant suspension and airbags all round with manual control for loading/unloading.
Wheel options to suit a true commercial vehicle to take truck tyre sizes.

Id like to see a large capacity, low rated engine option ( E.g. cummins ISF 3.8) for people who actually use these vehicles for work.
A true dual range gearbox with splitting on 4th, 5th & 6th would also be a nice option. I cant believe no one builds these yet.

Wait. Maybe I should just buy a truck.

[ProjectDirector]

Like I said in the previous thread, I don't think there will be a new defender but with the off chance that there is one, it will totally different with all the modern comforts and technology. As Tombie mentioned in my previous thread there is nothing wrong with technology and comforts but I don't think you can beat the simplicity and originality of this defender.
I suppose the same can be said about the transition from series III to Puma, but it is all relevant with what you consider as "baseline" defender or series.
Time will tell.
Cheers

[AndyG]

The Jlr program of restoring Series in the factory is actually a cleverly disguised prototype facilility for the ultimate retro car,

Or, a design with a common B pillar forwards body and a range of body types and lengths behind the B. And the best of proven LR technology that does not compete with the flagships, eg D3/D4 bits. Vs The D5 in 2018

[manic]

It will have a 'other land rover detection system' with pop up bonnet deployed waving arm !

[MrLandy]

Good call Pickles. There's also 'Defender 2016' which I started eons ago when we were led to believe there would be a new model by this year... Now the latest thinking is 2020 ...maybe.

I think Defender is finito.

But that doesn't stop me imagining a new perfectly simple, pragmatic, highly evolved and erudite reincarnation in the same form with an elegant aluminium skin, but with airbags and solar powered.

[Greg4427]

I agree but I don't know about solar power! It has to have low range, a simple design with a nod to the Defender so maybe an evolutionary design, a nod to safety modernity, decent diesel and an array of models that reflect the current, such as a SWB, LWB, Ute, tray etc.

[PAT303]

I'd like to see no transfer,just a straight 9 speed forward gearbox with two reverse speeds and a bit more cabin space,better insulation,more rear leg room. Pat

[steane]

If there is going to be a new one, then I don't think we'll see it much before the end of this decade. I believe the delay has more to do with the massive challenges faced by new vehicle designers now and the escalating and massive costs involved in designing and building an all new vehicle. Things have changed dramatically in just the last two or three years in this regard.

A lot more is going to change in the next decade and any vehicle being designed now is going to be different to what we are used to or even expecting.

Diesel, thanks in part to VW, is now a dirty word and there are car companies saying their ongoing development is a dead end, and that they will be concentrating on electric and small capacity turbo charged petrol engines and eventually just electric engines.

So while Land Rover could fit a diesel to an all new Defender, the big question is how obsolete will it be if it's not fully or partially electric drive?

There is a massive push by most car makers to bring electric vehicles to market. VW is revamping it's entire business model and has announced that it wants 30 EVs on the market by 2025.

MB are saying similar things. This technology is going to accelerate very rapidly (pardon the pun). We ain't seen nothing yet and what we have seen recently is pretty damn amazing.

Then we have autonomous vehicles. Countries are putting legislation in place to deal with them now. Car makers are buying up ride sharing companies like Uber so they can partly control their autonomous vehicle markets. This is another technology that is here right now. Google is buying into and investing heavily in autonomous vehicles. Autonomous cars are going to be here tomorrow.

Much the same is happening with safety and connectivity tech, especially connectivity.

What car maker is going to start with a clean sheet design and not feature these new technologies and directions? If they don't the new vehicle will be obsolete before it hits the market.

So by default, I am sure the days of simple, hose out, commercial style 4X4s are all but over and any new Defender isn't going to go there, simply because it won't be possible. Well you might be able to hose it out but it will be far from being a simple vehicle.

A few years ago JLR probably had the new Defender project on the board and ready to go. Nothing too major, nothing too difficult. But it's changed in the last few years and now they have no choice but to build something that is seriously cutting edge so that it is future proof. They are now creating this new vehicle at a time when the industry is on the cusp of massive change.

The next Defender, if it happens, could quite possibly be the most amazing 4X4 we've yet seen. I seriously doubt it will be anything remotely like the Defender we've known. That's not a JLR or rich man's conspiracy, it's just the evolution of the MV and the cycle is quickly gaining momentum.

[Tombie]

I'm with Pat.. Technology is now up there that a 2 speed TC is just weight and complexity that isn't needed.

Throw in a couple of crawler gears, some nice long over drives and 2 speed reverse and it's a winner..

Take of in "3" for normal and 1/2 for low.

Pats vision is where my heads at.

[spudboy]

That's an interesting thought that I've not thought about!

How come 'real' 4WDs have a transfer case, and not just a couple of low-low gears to assist in tricky offroad situations? Would be a lot cheaper to throw in 2 more cogs to a gearbox than build a whole extra transfer case.

Reliability?

[Beery]

I don't think you'd want a straight 9 speed mainshaft and layshaft. A high/low selector on the gearstick with 5 or 6 gears in each would be more managable.

Obviously a transfer case has to remain, just with less moving parts.

[manic]

If it doesn't have tyre pressures adjustable from the cabin, they have failed!

[cuppabillytea]

I'm with Tombie and Pat. I think it will be innovative, will have the ability to morph into many forms like the Defender we know, and it will be the genesis of all Land Rovers to follow.

[Pickles2]

If there is going to be a new one, then I don't think we'll see it much before the end of this decade. I believe the delay has more to do with the massive challenges faced by new vehicle designers now and the escalating and massive costs involved in designing and building an all new vehicle. Things have changed dramatically in just the last two or three years in this regard.

A lot more is going to change in the next decade and any vehicle being designed now is going to be different to what we are used to or even expecting.

Diesel, thanks in part to VW, is now a dirty word and there are car companies saying their ongoing development is a dead end, and that they will be concentrating on electric and small capacity turbo charged petrol engines and eventually just electric engines.

So while Land Rover could fit a diesel to an all new Defender, the big question is how obsolete will it be if it's not fully or partially electric drive?

There is a massive push by most car makers to bring electric vehicles to market. VW is revamping it's entire business model and has announced that it wants 30 EVs on the market by 2025.

MB are saying similar things. This technology is going to accelerate very rapidly (pardon the pun). We ain't seen nothing yet and what we have seen recently is pretty damn amazing.

Then we have autonomous vehicles. Countries are putting legislation in place to deal with them now. Car makers are buying up ride sharing companies like Uber so they can partly control their autonomous vehicle markets. This is another technology that is here right now. Google is buying into and investing heavily in autonomous vehicles. Autonomous cars are going to be here tomorrow.

Much the same is happening with safety and connectivity tech, especially connectivity.

What car maker is going to start with a clean sheet design and not feature these new technologies and directions? If they don't the new vehicle will be obsolete before it hits the market.

So by default, I am sure the days of simple, hose out, commercial style 4X4s are all but over and any new Defender isn't going to go there, simply because it won't be possible. Well you might be able to hose it out but it will be far from being a simple vehicle.

A few years ago JLR probably had the new Defender project on the board and ready to go. Nothing too major, nothing too difficult. But it's changed in the last few years and now they have no choice but to build something that is seriously cutting edge so that it is future proof. They are now creating this new vehicle at a time when the industry is on the cusp of massive change.

The next Defender, if it happens, could quite possibly be the most amazing 4X4 we've yet seen. I seriously doubt it will be anything remotely like the Defender we've known. That's not a JLR or rich man's conspiracy, it's just the evolution of the MV and the cycle is quickly gaining momentum.
Steane, Just have to say mate, what an EXCELLENT post you have written. A lot of stuff there, I hadn't even thought of.
Definitely food for thought. Pickles.

[strangy]

If Steane is correct in his assessments, I think it suggests why a "new" Defender will never be built nor necessary.
By the time the technology, legislation and viability of this type of concept comes to pass, the very concept of 4WD ing as we know it. (what most people buy a 4WD for), will be essentially irrelevant.
IMO the "need" for another high tech super capable, domestic market 4WD no longer exists. There is no longer in this country and arguably, rest of world, where such a vehicle in the domestic market is required, that has not been adequately catered for.

Clean sheets are good, yet, realistically if you took a Defender chassis and strapped some proper diffs and axles in, a decent ABS Traction control in, put an engine and box from the D4 in,then came up with a new monocoque body to strap on top which could accommodate the airbags etc, you would be 90% there.
Leather or cloth options,sound system connectivity.
Pretty much done and that's using around half the available components LR have already developed and proven.

[MrLandy]

If there is going to be a new one, then I don't think we'll see it much before the end of this decade. I believe the delay has more to do with the massive challenges faced by new vehicle designers now and the escalating and massive costs involved in designing and building an all new vehicle. Things have changed dramatically in just the last two or three years in this regard.

A lot more is going to change in the next decade and any vehicle being designed now is going to be different to what we are used to or even expecting.

Diesel, thanks in part to VW, is now a dirty word and there are car companies saying their ongoing development is a dead end, and that they will be concentrating on electric and small capacity turbo charged petrol engines and eventually just electric engines.

So while Land Rover could fit a diesel to an all new Defender, the big question is how obsolete will it be if it's not fully or partially electric drive?

There is a massive push by most car makers to bring electric vehicles to market. VW is revamping it's entire business model and has announced that it wants 30 EVs on the market by 2025.

MB are saying similar things. This technology is going to accelerate very rapidly (pardon the pun). We ain't seen nothing yet and what we have seen recently is pretty damn amazing.

Then we have autonomous vehicles. Countries are putting legislation in place to deal with them now. Car makers are buying up ride sharing companies like Uber so they can partly control their autonomous vehicle markets. This is another technology that is here right now. Google is buying into and investing heavily in autonomous vehicles. Autonomous cars are going to be here tomorrow.

Much the same is happening with safety and connectivity tech, especially connectivity.

What car maker is going to start with a clean sheet design and not feature these new technologies and directions? If they don't the new vehicle will be obsolete before it hits the market.

So by default, I am sure the days of simple, hose out, commercial style 4X4s are all but over and any new Defender isn't going to go there, simply because it won't be possible. Well you might be able to hose it out but it will be far from being a simple vehicle.

A few years ago JLR probably had the new Defender project on the board and ready to go. Nothing too major, nothing too difficult. But it's changed in the last few years and now they have no choice but to build something that is seriously cutting edge so that it is future proof. They are now creating this new vehicle at a time when the industry is on the cusp of massive change.

The next Defender, if it happens, could quite possibly be the most amazing 4X4 we've yet seen. I seriously doubt it will be anything remotely like the Defender we've known. That's not a JLR or rich man's conspiracy, it's just the evolution of the MV and the cycle is quickly gaining momentum.

Agreed...mostly. Which is why a new solar/electric 4X4 makes sense, why New production of Defender has finished and why current Defender will continue to grow in value and be sought after...until the end of diesel. It's still a way off, but it will happen.

Although I still think there is far too much emphasis on the developed world / urban market. It ignores half the worlds markets and what Land Rovers were built for. I dont agree that it's all urbanity now.

If Land Rover can be a leader in new clean technology, especially that which is self powered and regenerative like solar/electric, they would also take the less developed half of the world by storm and potentially introduce a new kind of heavy duty vehicle suitable for the still remote 50% of the planet.

This is what I'd like to hear more about from Gerry McGovern. Reverse engineering from urban lightweight vehicles is not as successful as reverse engineering from heavy duty platforms. This is where I think Land Rover have gone wrong and also why a new Defender won't happen.

[PAT303]

That's an interesting thought that I've not thought about!

How come 'real' 4WDs have a transfer case, and not just a couple of low-low gears to assist in tricky offroad situations? Would be a lot cheaper to throw in 2 more cogs to a gearbox than build a whole extra transfer case.

Reliability?

Harks back to the days of 3/4 speed gearbox's,to get a good spread of gears you needed a splitter box. Pat

[PAT303]

Steane makes some good points but remember that personal vehicles play just one part behind engine development.The world runs on trucks,simple as that,if the trucks stop the world stops and I can't see long haul trucks driving across Oz and the USA running on solar/batteries/hope;) regardless of what the enviro's say about diesel.I'm all for electric,a defender running four independent traction motors powered by a small T/D engine and battery pack optimized to run at a given rpm would give startling performance with regeneration braking thrown as well.Image not having two gearbox's,a clutch,two diff's,two drive shafts,CV's,axles,diff housing etc,the maintenance would be an oil change with air and fuel filter without all the other things to go wrong,diff locks?,no need,turbo lag,nil,power off idle,100% from zero rev's,were do I sign up. Pat

[cuppabillytea]

Pat I'm with you there but the all Electric Dawn is already lighting the Horizon.

[steane]

If you can, watch episode 4 of the current series of TopGear (which I am quite enjoying tbh). They drive the Tesla Model X. It has a range of 250 miles, can be charged in 30 minutes at one of their quick charge points and it out drags a Dodge Challenger Hellcat (700hp) EASILY.

It will also drive itself (mostly) and Tesla say in autonomous mode it is significantly safer than when being driven by a human.

This is today.

5 years from now the price will be halved, the range tripled and it will be fully autonomous.

For trucks it will be easy compared to cars. It makes sense for trucks to be autonomous and electric. They have way more options to package batteries on a truck than a car. Give it a few years and we'll start seeing them here.

This is all going to happen a lot quicker than most people are thinking IMO.

Once nations start legislating against internal combustion engines it will be be electric everything. And that legislating is already underway.

I heard from a source that I trust that planning is already underway for autonomous vehicles in Melbourne and the city will become a conventional car free zone. The plan is to expand that zone further out over time into the suburbs. No person will drive cars in these areas.

The younger generations don't get hung up on vehicles and vehicle ownership like we do. A car is just an appliance and a means of getting around. A very experienced industry expert that I know well (ex VACC currently an industry journo and editor of one of the larger auto sites) believes that vehicle ownership will largely disappear in the coming years. People will hold up their smart phone to hail vacant autonomous cars and they'll take you where you want to go, including between major cities or on a family holiday. Hence the big car makers buying ride sharing businesses now.

This is the world that JLR has to design their new Defender for, not the world we live in right now.

[Andrew86]

A few years ago JLR probably had the new Defender project on the board and ready to go. Nothing too major, nothing too difficult. But it's changed in the last few years and now they have no choice but to build something that is seriously cutting edge so that it is future proof. They are now creating this new vehicle at a time when the industry is on the cusp of massive change.

You raise some interesting points, but this cutting edge technology usually begins its life at the top of the tree and works its way down to the lower-end models as it becomes more viable to do so. Until we start seeing electric motors or at least some form of electric assistance in Range Rovers, I'd say there's a near zero chance of it being a feature in a Defender by 2020.

McGovern has described the three pillars of Land Rover's branding approach as:

Range Rover - Luxury
Discovery - Leisure
Defender - Entry-level, dual purpose


I think the delay of the next Defender is down to prioritisation more than anything. The focus in recent years has been on the 'Leisure' pillar, with the Discovery Sport and Disco 5 taking the spotlight. These are high volume, high margin vehicles that will fund the development of the lower cost models such as Defender.

Another major reason for the delay is JLR's strategic decision in 2015 to invest GBP 1 Billion in a new facility in Slovakia, construction of which is due to commence this year. The first cars aren't due to roll off the production line until 2018. Being a lower cost facility capable of producing 150,000 vehicles per year, you can bet your bottom dollar that the next Defenders will begin life there. It wouldn't make sense for JLR to tool up a production line elsewhere just to release a Defender earlier.

Based on what I've read from McGovern, and my own best guesses, I think the next Defender will be:

Offered in a range of wheelbases and trim levels, from basic commercial utilities to more comfortable family adventure vehicles.
Be the most comfortable, technologically advanced Defender ever.
Feature the Ingenium engines predominantly, with an optional V6 diesel and *fingers crossed* performance petrol V8 (because I like silly things).
Cost around the same as the existing Defender, so as to position it appropriately in the JLR lineup


Oh, and they'll sell like hot cakes because everything JLR has touched in the last decade has turned to gold.

Of course, this is just my own take on things and I could be totally wrong :D

Cheers:)

[cuppabillytea]

You raise some interesting points, but this cutting edge technology usually begins its life at the top of the tree and works its way down to the lower-end models as it becomes more viable to do so. Until we start seeing electric motors or at least some form of electric assistance in Range Rovers, I'd say there's a near zero chance of it being a feature in a Defender by 2020.

McGovern has described the three pillars of Land Rover's branding approach as:

Range Rover - Luxury
Discovery - Leisure
Defender - Entry-level, dual purpose


I think the delay of the next Defender is down to prioritisation more than anything. The focus in recent years has been on the 'Leisure' pillar, with the Discovery Sport and Disco 5 taking the spotlight. These are high volume, high margin vehicles that will fund the development of the lower cost models such as Defender.

Another major reason for the delay is JLR's strategic decision in 2015 to invest GBP 1 Billion in a new facility in Slovakia, construction of which is due to commence this year. The first cars aren't due to roll off the production line until 2018. Being a lower cost facility capable of producing 150,000 vehicles per year, you can bet your bottom dollar that the next Defenders will begin life there. It wouldn't make sense for JLR to tool up a production line elsewhere just to release a Defender earlier.

Based on what I've read from McGovern, and my own best guesses, I think the next Defender will be:

Offered in a range of wheelbases and trim levels, from basic commercial utilities to more comfortable family adventure vehicles.
Be the most comfortable, technologically advanced Defender ever.
Feature the Ingenium engines predominantly, with an optional V6 diesel and *fingers crossed* performance petrol V8 (because I like silly things).
Cost around the same as the existing Defender, so as to position it appropriately in the JLR lineup


Oh, and they'll sell like hot cakes because everything JLR has touched in the last decade has turned to gold.

Of course, this is just my own take on things and I could be totally wrong :D

Cheers:)
I agree, both rationally and sentimentally, with most of that, except that I don't think the defender replacement well be a simplified version of the higher end models. I think it will be an entirely new platform from which the new higher end models will take their form.
As I said in another thread a while ago now, It could be all electric in at least one form, with a motor in each hub. It could be based, not on a Ladder Frame Chassis, but a collection of pods, upon which all the suspension load trays, etc, could be mounted. It could have torsion bar, pneumatic or Hydraulic suspension or a combination of any or all of these. The Skins, Crumple Zones, etc could be added or subtracted bolt ons, rather than Integral parts of the Body.
It could be something completely and utterly different to anything yet produced. Although nothing I have mentioned here is anything new and some of my train of thought comes from my old Rover 2,000 SC. which was built in the 60s.

[steane]

You raise some interesting points, but this cutting edge technology usually begins its life at the top of the tree and works its way down to the lower-end models as it becomes more viable to do so. Until we start seeing electric motors or at least some form of electric assistance in Range Rovers, I'd say there's a near zero chance of it being a feature in a Defender by 2020.


I believe the tech has leap-frogged the old trickle down way of doing things. With disruptors like Tesla and Google heavily invested in the car industry, and car buyers wanting change, it's never going to be the same again.

https://www.teslamotors.com/en_AU/model3

400,000 pre orders held. US$35,000. Bottom of the range Tesla.

It's the future and any vehicle currently on the drawing board is going to have to address this future.

4 years now is like 40 years back in 1950.

[manic]

It would have to be hybrid if electric. A full electric would be useless outside the city. Tesla's model x looked good on top gear but a 250 mile range dependant on a long charge and perfect conditions is no where near good enough for a go anywhere vehicle. Sure they have super chargers that can do it in 30 mins but you can't take those in a jerry can. Solar charge, hahahahaha .... fine to run your fridge but you'll have to camp for a year with the fridge off to get a full charge on the cars immense power pack.

And then there's the weight of the battery pack, it's ever decreasing capacity. Forget towing 2 ton 1000km with the AC on.

No, let's get real. Even a hybrid defender with all electric 4wd running gear would be mighty ambitious for 2018 when you consider its got to be able to complete long hot corrugated runs through the desert, cross rivers and sit in mud.

And as for all electric semis hauling big tons around Australia..... report back in 2030!

I loved the top gear declaration of a new dawn. about time! But it's been said before, as far back as the 80s and here we are still waiting for the electric revolution. It's inevitable now, but I think diesel is going to own long haul for a while yet.

[Andrew86]

400,000 pre orders held. US$35,000. Bottom of the range Tesla.

It's the future and any vehicle currently on the drawing board is going to have to address this future.

4 years now is like 40 years back in 1950.

You don't need to convince me that EVs are going to be a major part of the automotive landscape in the future, but there is a long way to go - particularly with the established brands. Tesla are doing some great things, but it all needs to be kept in perspective. The company has only produced 125,000 cars in it's history, and is losing $4000 for every car it sells. It has never made a profit.

As a mass producer of affordable vehicles, it remains totally unproven. Ambitious and utterly fantastic, but unproven.

Those 400,000 pre-orders for the Model 3 were also from a fully refundable $1500 deposit, and the $35,000 is subject to change by the vehicles release (which is already looking like it'll be delayed until 2019). There are significant supply chain challenges to deal with. There's a long road ahead.

[steane]

I think the road is a lot shorter than you think Andrew, but we'll see over the next few years.

The Tesla pre-orders were (for me) more an indicator of public interest and acceptance of what the future of the automobile is.

My view is still that any vehicle on the drawing board now (even compared to two or three years ago) is on there at an unprecedented time of wholesale change in the history of the automobile and we shouldn't think it will just be another one like the other ones.

It's a very interesting time to be alive. I think we are going to straddle two very distinct and different times in automotive history.

[PAT303]

If you can, watch episode 3 of the current series of TopGear (which I am quite enjoying tbh). They drive the Tesla Model X. It has a range of 250 miles, can be charged in 30 minutes at one of their quick charge points and it out drags a Dodge Challenger Hellcat (700hp) EASILY.

It will also drive itself (mostly) and Tesla say in autonomous mode it is significantly safer than when being driven by a human.

This is today.

5 years from now the price will be halved, the range tripled and it will be fully autonomous.

For trucks it will be easy compared to cars. It makes sense for trucks to be autonomous and electric. They have way more options to package batteries on a truck than a car. Give it a few years and we'll start seeing them here.

This is all going to happen a lot quicker than most people are thinking IMO.

Once nations start legislating against internal combustion engines it will be be electric everything. And that legislating is already underway.

I heard from a source that I trust that planning is already underway for autonomous vehicles in Melbourne and the city will become a conventional car free zone. The plan is to expand that zone further out over time into the suburbs. No person will drive cars in these areas.

The younger generations don't get hung up on vehicles and vehicle ownership like we do. A car is just an appliance and a means of getting around. A very experienced industry expert that I know well (ex VACC currently an industry journo and editor of one of the larger auto sites) believes that vehicle ownership will largely disappear in the coming years. People will hold up their smart phone to hail vacant autonomous cars and they'll take you where you want to go, including between major cities or on a family holiday. Hence the big car makers buying ride sharing businesses now.

This is the world that JLR has to design their new Defender for, not the world we live in right now.

Autonomous cars scare me,one little glitch and your a passenger,look at how many recalls for faulty electrics there are for vehicles now. Pat

[PAT303]

I agree, both rationally and sentimentally, with most of that, except that I don't think the defender replacement well be a simplified version of the higher end models. I think it will be an entirely new platform from which the new higher end models will take their form.
As I said in another thread a while ago now, It could be all electric in at least one form, with a motor in each hub. It could be based, not on a Ladder Frame Chassis, but a collection of pods, upon which all the suspension load trays, etc, could be mounted. It could have torsion bar, pneumatic or Hydraulic suspension or a combination of any or all of these. The Skins, Crumple Zones, etc could be added or subtracted bolt ons, rather than Integral parts of the Body.
It could be something completely and utterly different to anything yet produced. Although nothing I have mentioned here is anything new and some of my train of thought comes from my old Rover 2,000 SC. which was built in the 60s.
And LR have a history of building completely different vehicles,the Range Rover,one of maybe 4 vehicles ever made that re-wrote the book on vehicle design. Pat

[PAT303]

I believe the tech has leap-frogged the old trickle down way of doing things. With disruptors like Tesla and Google heavily invested in the car industry, and car buyers wanting change, it's never going to be the same again.

https://www.teslamotors.com/en_AU/model3

400,000 pre orders held. US$35,000. Bottom of the range Tesla.

It's the future and any vehicle currently on the drawing board is going to have to address this future.

4 years now is like 40 years back in 1950.

Tesla are city vehicles only,look past the hype and think about were you go and what you do in your current one.Whats the range towing a boat/camper etc as a starting point. Pat

[PAT303]

I think the road is a lot shorter than you think Andrew, but we'll see over the next few years.

The Tesla pre-orders were (for me) more an indicator of public interest and acceptance of what the future of the automobile is.

My view is still that any vehicle on the drawing board now (even compared to two or three years ago) is on there at an unprecedented time of wholesale change in the history of the automobile and we shouldn't think it will just be another one like the other ones.

It's a very interesting time to be alive. I think we are going to straddle two very distinct and different times in automotive history.

There will be two distinct themes in automotive history,the people driving electric vehicles with flat batteries being picked up by people driving diesel/petrol ones.:D. Pat

[spudboy]

...

Be the most comfortable, technologically advanced Defender ever.

...

If it came with a USB point in the dash, that'd be the most technologically advanced Defender ever, so they don't have to do too much there to achieve that!

[spudboy]

And LR have a history of building completely different vehicles,the Range Rover,one of maybe 4 vehicles ever made that re-wrote the book on vehicle design. Pat

What would the other 3 be? Mini (the original one of course)? VW Beetle? Ummm - can't think of any more!

[steane]

Tesla are city vehicles only,look past the hype and think about were you go and what you do in your current one.Whats the range towing a boat/camper etc as a starting point. Pat

The range will come, the charge times will reduce. None of that will be an issue in the near future, it's being resolved at a furious rate right now.

The Tesla model X top of the range will do over 400kms between recharges and that makes it more than just an urban runabout. It's not a long distance tourer and can't recharge in the middle of nowhere, but that issue will resolve in less time than you think.

You might have trouble finding a diesel pump at the Pink Roadhouse in 2025.

[steane]

There will be two distinct themes in automotive history,the people driving electric vehicles with flat batteries being picked up by people driving diesel/petrol ones.:D. Pat

Haha...I don't think so. Right now yes. But a few years from now, the electric vehicles will be silently gliding around and everyone is going to want one.

I had a Mitsubishi i-MiEV for a week a few years ago and it was a lot of fun. I took it out to Triumph Rover Spares and let Phil have a drive. He loved it. For a little EV it hammered.

It's the future, like it or lump it. 3 years ago I would have said it was decades away but I reckon it's a handful of years away now.

[Andrew86]

My view is still that any vehicle on the drawing board now (even compared to two or three years ago) is on there at an unprecedented time of wholesale change in the history of the automobile and we shouldn't think it will just be another one like the other ones.

It's a very interesting time to be alive. I think we are going to straddle two very distinct and different times in automotive history.

I agree with you, I think the road ahead (however long it is) with EVs is incredible exciting. Admittedly I'm more interested in what's being achieved when the ICE and electric motors work together (i.e. Twin engine) - I'm a big fan of the Volvo XC90 T8.

It's great to see all the fanfare that Tesla is creating around this new technology though and I'm certain that we'll see that translate into a lot of technological progress. For me though, a pure EV Defender by 2020 is a bridge too far. Some form of hybrid application might not be out of the question though. To be clear, I'm not suggesting the new car won't be totally innovative - but it'll be innovative in a way that plays to JLR's strengths.


If it came with a USB point in the dash, that'd be the most technologically advanced Defender ever, so they don't have to do too much there to achieve that!

Mine has a USB, Bluetooth phone connectivity, hands free calling, music streaming and a hell of a sound system. I don't know what you're talking about :D

[ramblingboy42]

At the moment we are all thinking of stopping to charge your batteries up on an electric vehicle or some long time process.

Think back to the "efficient , fast " stagecoaches where the coach remained and its power was continuously changed over ie , fresh horseteams changed.

I see exactly the same thing happening at servos....modular slide in slide out battery systems sold instead of petrol.

Truck companies would have changeover bases across the country. The diesels will still be required to service remote areas.

I would suggest LR will produce model variants to suit.

My two bob.

[JDNSW]

....
It's the future, like it or lump it. 3 years ago I would have said it was decades away but I reckon it's a handful of years away now.

I agree it is the future - but I think you are an optimist. For urban use, they may become generally feasible within a decade, although I think even that is optimistic. And likely to be more decades before most users can afford to replace their existing cars.

For the rest of the country? I'm afraid it is likely to be several decades, or more. Not only do we have the problems of range and recharge times, but transferring the energy consumption as liquid fuel onto the grid, even allowing for increased efficiency, will reveal that the existing infrastructure is far from able to sustain this sort of increase in intermittent high current demand, as will be needed for fast recharging.

I have wanted an electric car for probably sixty years, and although I think they are closer to practicality, I fear it will be too late for me.

(Range and recharge are not the only factors - load carrying, towing ability, ground clearance, all come into it)

John

[spudboy]

...

Mine has a USB, Bluetooth phone connectivity, hands free calling, music streaming and a hell of a sound system. I don't know what you're talking about :D

My PUMA had a CD player that would read MP3s, but that was the limit!

It did have electric front windows though, that impressed my missus, compared to the old TD5 with hand winding windows.

[strangy]

At the moment we are all thinking of stopping to charge your batteries up on an electric vehicle or some long time process. Think back to the "efficient , fast " stagecoaches where the coach remained and its power was continuously changed over ie , fresh horseteams changed. I see exactly the same thing happening at servos....modular slide in slide out battery systems sold instead of petrol. Truck companies would have changeover bases across the country. The diesels will still be required to service remote areas. I would suggest LR will produce model variants to suit. My two bob.
You know I hadn't considered the change over concept and with battery/ fuel cell technology having changed so fast it should be possible/ viable within 20 years.

While the diesel traction motor concept is more than 50 years old,
I think a small gas turbine instead of diesel would be a good interim measure- too noisy for urban but wouldn't be a problem in rural or remote areas.
Few moving parts and incredibly reliable, just like good electric motors.

[manic]

At the moment we are all thinking of stopping to charge your batteries up on an electric vehicle or some long time process.

Think back to the "efficient , fast " stagecoaches where the coach remained and its power was continuously changed over ie , fresh horseteams changed.

I see exactly the same thing happening at servos....modular slide in slide out battery systems sold instead of petrol.

Truck companies would have changeover bases across the country. The diesels will still be required to service remote areas.

I would suggest LR will produce model variants to suit.

My two bob.


I've not seen any manufacturer present the exchangeable battery idea. It's a shame. Tesla are building their batteries into the floor pan, which looks far from hot swap!

I think the problem is price and weight. What are they, 20,000 dollar batteries weighing in at 500kgs ? And then there's standardisation which takes ages and it's too soon to even start on that.

Next Defender = Diesel.

[MrLandy]

...Hang on a minute ! ...what "new" Defender? :eek:

[vnx205]

Another thing to consider is the name that will be given to the vehicle that replaces the Defender. After all, the current design wasn't originally called the Defender.

It is a question that should not be underestimated. When Toyota brought out a vehicle that was obviously filling the gap created in their range by the discontinuation of the Corona, they didn't call it a Corona.

There had been a previous, quite different, more sporty vehicle in their range called the Camry and that was the name they adopted for the Corona replacement. They wanted to change the public's perception of the vehicle.

The Corona was generally considered to be reliable, good value for money but about as boring as a car could be. The fact that they used the Brabhams so prominently in the early ads was a further clue that they wanted the give the impression that the Camry was an exciting car, unlike the very staid Corona.

So the question is, does Land Rover think the name Defender conjures up the right mental image of the vehicle they intend to release on the market. What does the name "Defender" mean and will it be appropriate for the replacement?

[ramblingboy42]

...and so Toyota produce the Camry.....about as boring as car can be.

I think Land Rover should call it a Landrover......far from boring.

[steane]

I agree it is the future - but I think you are an optimist. For urban use, they may become generally feasible within a decade, although I think even that is optimistic. And likely to be more decades before most users can afford to replace their existing cars.

For the rest of the country? I'm afraid it is likely to be several decades, or more. Not only do we have the problems of range and recharge times, but transferring the energy consumption as liquid fuel onto the grid, even allowing for increased efficiency, will reveal that the existing infrastructure is far from able to sustain this sort of increase in intermittent high current demand, as will be needed for fast recharging.

I have wanted an electric car for probably sixty years, and although I think they are closer to practicality, I fear it will be too late for me.

(Range and recharge are not the only factors - load carrying, towing ability, ground clearance, all come into it)

John

My guess is that a new Defender will go to market with a diesel and diesel-electric hybrid choice that will over the life of the platform move to replacing the diesel option with a full electric. The platform will have to be designed now to deal with that evolution.

[cafe latte]

I just hope the new one does not have play in the drive train like the current one does as that is one thing that I hate about mine.
Chris

[Beery]

Thats exactly what I was going to mention. Ive seen a brilliant example somewhere of a replacable battery system. The vehicle has a receiver that can take a certain number of cells (roughly 4-6), all of a standardised form. You can fill up with as many or as few as you like.

The servo just has a 'swap & go' type battery charging rack. No new infrastructure needed.

This way you can carry spares like jerry cans.

Im sure it'd be easy enough to build in an extra battery receiver as a 'long range tank'.

The cordless powertool industry doesnt expect you to plug in your drill and sit around waiting for it to charge.

[Beery]

I was trying to quote ramblingboy from post #44 there

[cafe latte]

Problem with us all having electric cars is there is not enough Lithium available for us all to have electric cars we really need a new battery technology. Also how are we going to charge all these batteries? if it is by coal or oil fire power stations we as well carry on buring fossil fuels in our cars as it will be more efficient than using fossil fuels to make electricity and use that as every time you convert energy from one type to another ie coal to electricity something is lost.

Chris

[wally]

I just hope the new one does not have play in the drive train like the current one does as that is one thing that I hate about mine.
Chris

Me too Chris. It's really the one thing that bothers me.

[Beery]

Me too Chris. It's really the one thing that bothers me.

A 'pancake' brushless DC motor at each wheel would get rid of that.

[Beery]

A drive system involving a motor at each wheel, be it fully battery powered or diesel-electric would be phenominal in its flexibility for use as a 4wd. Imagine being able to drive each wheel independantly.

Dynamic braking would be a great substitute for an engine/exhaust brake for those long downhill runs. Charging any batteries as you roll.

Goodbye 'traditional' ETC. Also, goodbye gearbox problems, transfer case problems, centre diff, propshaft, uni joint, front&rear diff, axle shaft and drive flange problems.

The weight saving from getting rid of those components would be good for payload and towing capacity. Unless of course replacing them with batteries.

[JDNSW]

A drive system involving a motor at each wheel, be it fully battery powered or diesel-electric would be phenominal in its flexibility for use as a 4wd. Imagine being able to drive each wheel independantly.
.........

Introduced by Couple-Gear Freight Wheel Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan, in the period before WW1.

Never heard of them? May be a clue here as to how successful the idea proved in practice!

John

[AndyG]

Curiosity is equipped with six 50 cm (20 in) diameter wheels in a rocker-bogie suspension. The suspension system also served as landing gear for the vehicle, unlike its smaller predecessors.[44][45] Each wheel has cleats and is independently actuated and geared, providing for climbing in soft sand and scrambling over rocks. Each front and rear wheel can be independently steered, allowing the vehicle to turn in place as well as execute arcing turns.

They've come a long way since then, in fact all the way to Mars, Umm electric, independent gearing, portal hubs, F & R steering, getting pretty smick. Probably a tad pricey

edit,
and called a Mars ROVER , so there's some cred , how can we get Diggers sticker up there

[strangy]

Problem with us all having electric cars is there is not enough Lithium available for us all to have electric cars we really need a new battery technology. Also how are we going to charge all these batteries? if it is by coal or oil fire power stations we as well carry on buring fossil fuels in our cars as it will be more efficient than using fossil fuels to make electricity and use that as every time you convert energy from one type to another ie coal to electricity something is lost. Chris
Pfft.. nuclear.😜

[spie]

Mobile phones, turbo chargers, LiPo batteries, GPS... All are 'new' tech re WW1 - Remeber that ppl laughed at the first car "No way will that ever replace a horse and carrage!!!" etc

[Beery]

Introduced by Couple-Gear Freight Wheel Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan, in the period before WW1.

Never heard of them? May be a clue here as to how successful the idea proved in practice!

John

You're talking about something that happened over a century ago John.

[PAT303]

What would the other 3 be? Mini (the original one of course)? VW Beetle? Ummm - can't think of any more!

Mini,Model T,Beetle,RRC,Audi Quattro. Pat

[PAT303]

Me too Chris. It's really the one thing that bothers me.

ATB center diff will remove it completely. Pat

[PAT303]

Problem with us all having electric cars is there is not enough Lithium available for us all to have electric cars we really need a new battery technology. Also how are we going to charge all these batteries? if it is by coal or oil fire power stations we as well carry on buring fossil fuels in our cars as it will be more efficient than using fossil fuels to make electricity and use that as every time you convert energy from one type to another ie coal to electricity something is lost.

Chris

This is the main point for me against electric vehicles,everyone claims that they have zero emissions which is true for the vehicle itself but where does the power come from?,all they do is move the emissions from column ''A'' to column ''B''. Pat

[JDNSW]

You're talking about something that happened over a century ago John.

Yes, but just think about other innovations that were introduced in the same era and have now become virtually universal - four wheel independent suspension, four wheel brakes, hydraulic brakes, front wheel drive, unitary construction, overhead camshaft, just to mention a few.

There were a lot of other ideas that were going to take over the world, but have yet to do so, and there is usually a good reason(s) for this.

Having said that, I do find the concept attractive in theory, but just needs to be pointed out it is not a new idea.

John

[Beery]

Yes, but just think about other innovations that were introduced in the same era and have now become virtually universal - four wheel independent suspension, four wheel brakes, hydraulic brakes, front wheel drive, unitary construction, overhead camshaft, just to mention a few.

There were a lot of other ideas that were going to take over the world, but have yet to do so, and there is usually a good reason(s) for this.

Having said that, I do find the concept attractive in theory, but just needs to be pointed out it is not a new idea.

John

They were all far more feasible at the time with the mechanical engineering available.
Electric motors have come a long long way and the computers to control them weren't even thought of at the time.

Just because something wasn't feasible 100 years ago doesn't mean its the same today.

[loanrangie]

...and so Toyota produce the Camry.....about as boring as car can be.

I think Land Rover should call it a Landrover......far from boring.

I have been driving my Mum's Nissan Tiida while she was in WA for a week and if ever there was a car without a soul, it surely is the Tiida.
No wonder so many grannies fall asleep at the wheel, its from sheer boredom !

Great motor though, quite nippy and fuel efficient :angel:.

[steane]

This is the main point for me against electric vehicles,everyone claims that they have zero emissions which is true for the vehicle itself but where does the power come from?,all they do is move the emissions from column ''A'' to column ''B''. Pat

Won't be that way forever, just at the start.

AGL has announced today that they will provide $1 per day charging for EVs and the main reason is interesting. It's to use power that is ALREADY being generated.

"If you're an AGL customer, or become one, then we will provide charging for electric vehicles, $1-a-day, all you can eat," Vesey said.

The offer is understood to be part of an effort not only to win more customers, but, crucially, to build base load on its generators. Vesey told the conference that power supply in Australia "way exceeds demand" and that "clever thinking and leadership" is required.

EVs aren't decades away. Handful of years before the Chinese are offering Aussies affordable EVs with a decent range.

[MrLandy]

"Mars Rover". The perfect name for the Defender replacement in 20??

Steane, you're on the case, nice work. The future is definately coming fast (everywhere except Australia where innovation is just hollow words).

The perpetual waiting with no info from JLR is beginning to inspire a great discussion.

Hybrids make total sense for the foreseeable future IMO.

Defender was always going to be finite, incomplete. imperfect. ...which actually makes it perfect, complete and timeless.

Cheers

[cafe latte]

Won't be that way forever, just at the start.

AGL has announced today that they will provide $1 per day charging for EVs and the main reason is interesting. It's to use power that is ALREADY being generated.

"If you're an AGL customer, or become one, then we will provide charging for electric vehicles, $1-a-day, all you can eat," Vesey said.

The offer is understood to be part of an effort not only to win more customers, but, crucially, to build base load on its generators. Vesey told the conference that power supply in Australia "way exceeds demand" and that "clever thinking and leadership" is required.

EVs aren't decades away. Handful of years before the Chinese are offering Aussies affordable EVs with a decent range.
That is all very well one company now, but when everyone has an electric car these offeres will cease to exist. Charging a car with current methods of power generation is less green than a car run on fossil fuels, sad but true. Electric cars are also very dangerous in a car crash both for occupants and emergency services, especially if they catch fire (you cant put them out easily). Then the question how long do the battery packs last ie how often they need replacing and when they do how easily are they recycled?
Chris

[steane]

That is all very well one company now, but when everyone has an electric car these offeres will cease to exist. Charging a car with current methods of power generation is less green than a car run on fossil fuels, sad but true. Electric cars are also very dangerous in a car crash both for occupants and emergency services, especially if they catch fire (you cant put them out easily). Then the question how long do the battery packs last ie how often they need replacing and when they do how easily are they recycled?
Chris

Big things always start with small steps. The fact that a power company is offering EV owners a deal in Aus NOW kind of suggests that EVs ARE HERE NOW much to the chagrin of the people who think it's decades away.

You can come up with any argument against it that you want but the fact is it is happening. It will happen quicker than most people will expect and it will roll out the best way it can be rolled out. One day it will be very green. It might not start that way but it will end that way. EVs will have bigger ranges than fossil fuel powered cars, might not start that way but it will end that way. The model T had 2hp the latest HSV has 500hp. Getting knickers in a twist about how it will all happen is a waste of time because it's going to happen.

Accidents and fires - Electric cars, 15 years from now simply won't crash. Autonomous technology is all about improving traffic flows and removing human error. And I'm sure when some numpty human manages to drive their EV into something there will be ways to deal with the outcome. People aren't stupid. We've developed ways to deal with most types of emergencies reasonably effectively. But there will always be some carnage on the road ahead. Our most effective learning is via our mistakes.

Forget what we know now and what we drive now. It's all up for grabs in the next two decades and will change completely.

This must have been what it was like when the first cars started to appear. "Oh my god, how will that ever work...what do I feed it and why doesn't it poop"

And to keep it on topic, this is why I believe any new Defender is going to be something completely out of the box, simply because it will have a brave new world of change to deal with. It's going to have to be able to straddle the move from old tech to new tech in the one platform generation.

[Pickles2]

Some GREAT discussion and ideas here now.
However, I must admit that I'd never even thought of some of the very impressive ideas/developments suggested.
I've read about Tesla, even seen one, no doubt a lovely innovative. energy efficient car, and I know JLR have an "Electric" Defender.
Like I've said before, whilst I believe there will be one, I know absolutely nothing about it, but I do think, that an "Electric Defender" is not what we will see.
Any "new" Defender will have to be a volume seller, and I don't believe that electric power will cut it in that category,....so I'm staying with Diesel power.
JLR have put a lot into, & made a lot of, Ingenium, of which we have seen only one example, to date.....I predict various editions of that engine to power any new Defender.
Pickles.

[manofaus]

But things that make a defender a defender will go. Narrow pillars replaced with ones that house an airbag. Seat position so you can see your front tyre gone in favor of side intrusion and cup holders. Narrow seats to go in the way to accommodate for larger people. A large steering wheel in favor of a multi position thing with an air bag and cruise controls. Pwm to all leds. An air con that works. A service reminder....sealed 8sp clutch release torque converter less paddle shift planetary drive gearbox. A vehicle that has two fuel tanks, but one is for urea... a diesel engine with a spark plug...

[Andrew86]

Big things always start with small steps. The fact that a power company is offering EV owners a deal in Aus NOW kind of suggests that EVs ARE HERE NOW much to the chagrin of the people who think it's decades away.

There are fewer than 3500 EVs on the road in Australia, out of 18 million registered motor vehicles. The fanfare is obviously orders of magnitude higher than that figure would suggest, but I think it's important to keep things in perspective. An electricity retailer taking advantage of that hype and grabbing a few headlines is inexpensive and clever marketing.

You're right though, big things start with small steps. I don't think it'll take the technology decades to become viable, I think it'll take governments, regulators and power companies decades to catch up and create an environment within which large numbers of these cars can operate effectively. You only have to look at our internet in Australia to realise how slow that process can be.

[newhue]

In the next 10 years I think we will see electric cars come on line in a major way. Initially city cars but 4x4's in some compacity won't be far behind. Boot stations that charge the car are already going in a big way in europe, and the roll out is starting in Australia. It's possible to do Bris to Syd in 3 charges of 20 minutes, so comparable to a conventional fuel stop nowadays. You don't park and plug, just park over plate and the charge is transferred to a pick up under the vehicle. Your new defender may also be 3D printed from a common place in your capital city. Purchased on line like a song from iTunes, downloaded to the printer, and waiting for pick up when you arrive. It's possibly going to be driverless, probably smaller, all wheel drive and steer as well.

[Tombie]

20 minute fuel stops [emoji48] - you must have little kids [emoji41]

On topic - EVs will be driven (pun intended) by what is available ex Europe..

What you'll see is American vs EU in Australia... And the Japanese vehicles will depend on which of those 2 above they are targeting the model at.

[tact]

ATB center diff will remove it completely. Pat

Nahhhh....
ATB centre diff
HD drive flanges
ATB front and rear diffs

Then.... maybe clunks will be less. (If all the suspension component bushes are in good shape...)

Not just centre diff...

[steane]

20 minute fuel stops [emoji48] - you must have little kids [emoji41]

On topic - EVs will be driven (pun intended) by what is available ex Europe..

What you'll see is American vs EU in Australia... And the Japanese vehicles will depend on which of those 2 above they are targeting the model at.

I think China will have a big role to play. IMO the EV will propel China from automotive bit player in export markets to major supplier of EVs to Australia and the rest of the world. They are already manufacturing them for their home market and govt legislation re fuel efficiency is going to push that along rapidly. It will also force SUV manufacturers to offer EVs in their line-up (to offset the less fuel efficient conventional SUVs in the range) and we all know one company that likes their SUVs and needs China...

Chinese companies will lead the affordable EV charge (haha) and it wouldn't surprise me if you could buy them like appliances at Kmart, which is the one retail chain that has service centres and could actually sell new cars without breaking the law.

[Disco-tastic]

A drive system involving a motor at each wheel, be it fully battery powered or diesel-electric would be phenominal in its flexibility for use as a 4wd. Imagine being able to drive each wheel independantly.

I was at an electric car seminar a few weeks ago and one of the speakers was asked why this 'one motor in each wheel' hasn't taken off. His answer? Its really hard to calibrate and control four independent motors to handle differing speeds around a corner. He told a story of being in a car that had four separate motors when one wheel decided to do is own thing and spun the vehicle across to the other side of the road at speed (not sure what speed).

A single motor front and rear with conventional diff is much simpler, safer and easier to program.

Cheers

Dan

[newhue]

I was at an electric car seminar a few weeks ago and one of the speakers was asked why this 'one motor in each wheel' hasn't taken off. His answer? Its really hard to calibrate and control four independent motors to handle differing speeds around a corner. He told a story of being in a car that had four separate motors when one wheel decided to do is own thing and spun the vehicle across to the other side of the road at speed (not sure what speed).

A single motor front and rear with conventional diff is much simpler, safer and easier to program.

Cheers

Dan

Did they happen to mention cars future construction. I was at an air show recently and the NZ air force has operational attack/support choppers are something like 60% plastic. It was much lighter so was more economcal and could carry 1/3 more, but still performed as good or better than the predecessor. The French air force has them as well.

Was there any talk of no gears reading the motor, just one long variable speed. Bit like a variable speed drill I guess, or something like a low and high.

[newhue]

double post

[JDNSW]

......

A single motor front and rear with conventional diff is much simpler, safer and easier to program. and heavier and more expensive.

There does not seem to me to be any good reason why, if we accept software control of power, brakes, steering and collision avoidance, as is the case with many current cars, there should be a problem with this. Unless I am mistaken there are mine vehicles in use with a single hydraulic motor at each wheel, and they seem to go OK without any software!

And as for being difficult - the advantage of doing it in software is that you only do it once and the cost of duplicating it is negligible - if you use a conventional drive setup with a single motor front and rear, you still have the problem of coordinating power from front and rear, but you have to build the differential and axles for every vehicle you make.

I think the answer was a non-answer. I am sure there are multiple problems with it, but I rather doubt there is a single show stopping issue.

John

[cuppabillytea]

and heavier and more expensive.

There does not seem to me to be any good reason why, if we accept software control of power, brakes, steering and collision avoidance, as is the case with many current cars, there should be a problem with this. Unless I am mistaken there are mine vehicles in use with a single hydraulic motor at each wheel, and they seem to go OK without any software!

And as for being difficult - the advantage of doing it in software is that you only do it once and the cost of duplicating it is negligible - if you use a conventional drive setup with a single motor front and rear, you still have the problem of coordinating power from front and rear, but you have to build the differential and axles for every vehicle you make.

I think the answer was a non-answer. I am sure there are multiple problems with it, but I rather doubt there is a single show stopping issue.

John

You beat me to the punch with that one John. My sentiments exactly.

[Disco-tastic]

Yeah fair points john. Just passing on his tale of his experience.

Cheers

Dan

[Dervish]

I can't tell you why the guy at the conference told you that, probably so he could share his spin out story.

I'm no expert on EVs but from what I know, the electric motors used are more efficient at high RPM. That is to say, you can make electric motors generate adequate power at lower RPM but they need to be of a larger and heavier design (much like ICEs). For light vehicles, a lightweight (high RPM) motor is the most efficient way to go. So seeing as you need gear reduction to have good acceleration, a differential fits the bill nicely and also means you need less motors.

[JDNSW]

....
I'm no expert on EVs but from what I know, the electric motors used are more efficient at high RPM. That is to say, you can make electric motors generate adequate power at lower RPM but they need to be of a larger and heavier design (much like ICEs). For light vehicles, a lightweight (high RPM) motor is the most efficient way to go. So seeing as you need gear reduction to have good acceleration, a differential fits the bill nicely and also means you need less motors.

Yes, electric motors have a better power/mass ratio if they are high rpm - but having them in the wheels saves a lot of mass. And gears are probably more expensive than motors, although design as in any vehicle is a matter of balancing these factors against each other.

Certainly the cost of electric motors a hundred years ago would have been a major factor in the failure of the idea then. In 1919 for example, Morris found it more economical to use a combined starter/generator or dynamotor when offering electric lighting on his Oxford - and even then, this optional extra was 10% of the total cost. But the costs of electrical equipment have almost certainly dropped a lot more than the cost of mechanical parts.

John

[Dervish]

Yes, electric motors have a better power/mass ratio if they are high rpm - but having them in the wheels saves a lot of mass. And gears are probably more expensive than motors, although design as in any vehicle is a matter of balancing these factors against each other.

...

Having the motors unsprung would have them shaken to bits, surely. Hitting a pothole could be an expensive mishap. Not only that, but you'd need gear reduction in four points as opposed to two - with the associated weight and expense.

[Andrew86]

Let's not forget that JLR has invested half a billion GBP in its Ingenium 2L turbo diesel that has only recently started its life. They're going to want to get a decent return on that investment before replacing it with alternative technologies. It makes a lot of sense for it to be at the heart of the next Defender.

I'm sure electric vehicles are on their roadmap, but I think 2020 is too soon for it to be in a volume seller like the Defender is intended to be. I wouldn't be surprised if we see some sort of electric-hybrid technology appearing in the Range Rover fleet in that time frame though.

[Beery]

Having the motors unsprung would have them shaken to bits, surely. Hitting a pothole could be an expensive mishap. Not only that, but you'd need gear reduction in four points as opposed to two - with the associated weight and expense.

There are really no 'bits' in a brushless DC motor to shake apart. At least, much less so than a mechanical drivetrain.

DC motors are capable of extremely high torque from a standstill, thats why they are used on ball mills and other high starting torque equipment. Unlike AC induction motors which are relatively low in starting torque and need to be loaded correctly to be efficient and have good power factor.

'Pancake' motors have a large diameter which greatly increases the torque that the rotor can put to the shaft. They really are designed (and will only get better) specifically for the purpose.

Dont forget, in new 'Defender' you'd (hypothetically of course) have 4 of these motors working together, and no transmission losses to sap the power away.

[Beery]

Let's not forget that JLR has invested half a billion GBP in its Ingenium 2L turbo diesel that has only recently started its life. They're going to want to get a decent return on that investment before replacing it with alternative technologies. It makes a lot of sense for it to be at the heart of the next Defender.

Exactly why I think that a Diesel Electric Defender is plausible in a couple of years when it comes out.

It would make it a perfect vehicle to be compatible to full EV sometime in the future when the Ingenium has run its course.


Sent from my ZTE T84 using AULRO mobile app

[sheerluck]

Personally, I think the talk of electric powered Defenders is still a little fanciful.

Realistically, even if the launch has been delayed until 2020, 4 years to launch something totally new is way too little time. If something radical and game changing was available they would have it on the D5 for launch soon.

My view is that it will be a hotchpotch of parts from the existing parts range, and they are just quibbling about the overall look (the much more straightforward sheet metal bits). By the time they've done a couple of years of modelling, then prototype building, then getting tenders and contracts arranged for the buy in parts, 6 months of testing in the Arctic Circle and the Outback, then getting tooling and ramp up arranged, 2020 will be here.

So I doubt it will be a radical change at all, but a cut down (or lengthened) D4 with a dowdy frock on.

[MrLandy]

Exactly why I think that a Diesel Electric Defender is plausible in a couple of years when it comes out.

It would make it a perfect vehicle to be compatible to full EV sometime in the future when the Ingenium has run its course.


Sent from my ZTE T84 using AULRO mobile app

This is what should happen, agreed Beery.

[MrLandy]

Personally, I think the talk of electric powered Defenders is still a little fanciful.

Realistically, even if the launch has been delayed until 2020, 4 years to launch something totally new is way too little time. If something radical and game changing was available they would have it on the D5 for launch soon.

My view is that it will be a hotchpotch of parts from the existing parts range, and they are just quibbling about the overall look (the much more straightforward sheet metal bits). By the time they've done a couple of years of modelling, then prototype building, then getting tenders and contracts arranged for the buy in parts, 6 months of testing in the Arctic Circle and the Outback, then getting tooling and ramp up arranged, 2020 will be here.

So I doubt it will be a radical change at all, but a cut down (or lengthened) D4 with a dowdy frock on.

...but I reckon you're right Sheerluck. It aint gonna happen. IF there is a new Defender it will be a botched D4, because the designers can't be arsed. This is particularly evident given what the new D5 looks like. Hmm a rebadged D4. Yup sad to say, Defender really is finished.

[Pickles2]

...but I reckon you're right Sheerluck. It aint gonna happen. IF there is a new Defender it will be a botched D4, because the designers can't be arsed. This is particularly evident given what the new D5 looks like. Hmm a rebadged D4. Yup sad to say, Defender really is finished.
Mr Landy, if I had a dollar for every time that you've said, (at every opportunity?!) "Defender Is Finished", I would quite easily be way in front of the amount by which my share / retirement portfolio has decreased during the last 24hrs or so!
All is good!. Pickles.

[MrLandy]

Mr Landy, if I had a dollar for every time that you've said, (at every opportunity?!) "Defender Is Finished", I would quite easily be way in front of the amount by which my share / retirement portfolio has decreased during the last 24hrs or so!
All is good!. Pickles.

Yeah Pickles, I'm getting tired of saying it myself! but when you're the just about the only sceptic amongst a brotherhood of super optimists, there ain't a lot of choice!

I just reckon Land Rover don't really want to build another Defender. And that whatever comes next might be great for the previously welded on D4 buyers, because D5 is clearly for the previously welded on BMW X5 or AudiQ buyers.

Given that watching the share market rise and fall is so predictable I don't know what anyone is worried about. It's a gamble. Short sighted greed will always Trump true sharing in the growth capital economy, so I don't have all that much sympathy I'm afraid. I think the system is broke.

Actually I also think this is the cause of no new Defender. Making or designing something based primarily on economic / mass market grounds leads to the kind of homogenisation we are currently seeing with all Land Rover products.

I might sound like I'm being negative the whole time, but actually it is simply because I am stupidly trying to counteract the majority. I guess I just see things differently. I value form and function over finance.

Cheers

[steane]

Personally, I think the talk of electric powered Defenders is still a little fanciful.

Realistically, even if the launch has been delayed until 2020, 4 years to launch something totally new is way too little time. If something radical and game changing was available they would have it on the D5 for launch soon.

My view is that it will be a hotchpotch of parts from the existing parts range, and they are just quibbling about the overall look (the much more straightforward sheet metal bits). By the time they've done a couple of years of modelling, then prototype building, then getting tenders and contracts arranged for the buy in parts, 6 months of testing in the Arctic Circle and the Outback, then getting tooling and ramp up arranged, 2020 will be here.

So I doubt it will be a radical change at all, but a cut down (or lengthened) D4 with a dowdy frock on.

D5 would have been in development years ago and the game has moved on a lot in that time, in the last couple of years particularly. I agree that 2020 could still be too early to see a new Defender, but it will have to have electric in its platform lifetime. Not initially but it will be the eventual outcome IMO.

[JDNSW]

.......
Realistically, even if the launch has been delayed until 2020, 4 years to launch something totally new is way too little time. If something radical and game changing was available they would have it on the D5 for launch soon.
.......

I suppose that it would be churlish to point out that in June 1947 Rover first looked at the possibility of a four wheel drive - unlike anything they had ever built before, but they still launched the Landrover at the end of April 1948, and were delivering production models before the end of the year.

Now certainly the design of a new Defender will be much more complicated, as are the hoops they need to jump through - but the effort in 1947-8 was done with vastly inferior resources, and in particular, without computers.

Like that design, any new Defender would certainly use many parts from existing models, including the engine, and I have no doubt it will have an Ingenium engine - perhaps the only question will be which one(s).

John

[strangy]

Having the motors unsprung would have them shaken to bits, surely. Hitting a pothole could be an expensive mishap. Not only that, but you'd need gear reduction in four points as opposed to two - with the associated weight and expense.
Planetary gearbox would do the trick nicely.
Total unsparing weight compared to live axles would be less and I'd say roughly 1/2 to 2/3 when considering no brake discs and calipers.

[Dervish]

Planetary gearbox would do the trick nicely.
Total unsparing weight compared to live axles would be less and I'd say roughly 1/2 to 2/3 when considering no brake discs and calipers.

No brakes now?

[sheerluck]

I suppose that it would be churlish to point out that in June 1947 Rover first looked at the possibility of a four wheel drive - unlike anything they had ever built before, but they still launched the Landrover at the end of April 1948, and were delivering production models before the end of the year.

Now certainly the design of a new Defender will be much more complicated, as are the hoops they need to jump through - but the effort in 1947-8 was done with vastly inferior resources, and in particular, without computers.

Like that design, any new Defender would certainly use many parts from existing models, including the engine, and I have no doubt it will have an Ingenium engine - perhaps the only question will be which one(s).

John

And the world has changed immensely from then John. From two guys bashing stuff together in a shed, to launching to a global market where the design regulations, safety regulations, emmisions regulations of 200 countries have to be taken into consideration, before even thinking about the dyed-in-the-wool Land Rover fans who think they have a right to have an input.

The world was a much more simple place then. Yes, the computer aided design would take away a lot of the trial and error that would have been used back in the late 40s, and speed things up, but ultimately, with limited resources (a design team who will have just finished on the D5), a finite budget, and an audience waiting with baited breath, 4 years is no time.

I used to work for a company in the UK that produced moulded (and painted) exterior parts for Land Rover and other vehicle manufacturers. For a new model, it could easily take 18 months to industrialise one part. From having the moulding tool manufactured, to trialling a part, to finalising and optimising the paint robot parameters, to sign off. A long process.

[JDNSW]

And the world has changed immensely from then John. From two guys bashing stuff together in a shed, to launching to a global market where the design regulations, safety regulations, emmisions regulations of 200 countries have to be taken into consideration, before even thinking about the dyed-in-the-wool Land Rover fans who think they have a right to have an input.

The world was a much more simple place then. Yes, the computer aided design would take away a lot of the trial and error that would have been used back in the late 40s, and speed things up, but ultimately, with limited resources (a design team who will have just finished on the D4), a finite budget, and an audience waiting with baited breath, 4 years is no time.

I used to work for a company in the UK that produced moulded (and painted) exterior parts for Land Rover and other vehicle manufacturers. For a new model, it could easily take 18 months to industrialise one part. From having the moulding tool manufactured, to trialling a part, to finalising and optimising the paint robot parameters, to sign off. A long process.

Yes, the world has changed immensely. And, apart from the points you make (which I mentioned in very abbreviated form) and the resources that are now available that were not even dreamt of seventy years ago, such as computer aided design, tooling and manufacture, there is another factor.

We are no longer talking about a very small, capital limited, conservative, albeit fairly successful car manufacturer, but a medium sized and very successful subsidiary of one of the largest conglomerates in the world, which manufactures, apart from Landrovers, a very wide variety of cars and trucks of all types. Landrover is also probably one of the most profitable motor manufacturers in the world.

No, I do not think that they need to take another four years to produce a replacement that they have admitted to already having been working on for years, but I think I have to agree that it is likely. This is simply because I don't think they have come to a decision what to build. If they had come to a decision, I would expect some sort of credible information to have appeared answering a lot of the questions.

(As an aside, I wonder if there is something in the fact that two of the world's most successful car companies, Ford and Tata, are both family companies? And hence perhaps able to take a longer term view than the rest?)

John

[strangy]

No brakes now?
No,
Why bother if we are going electric with dynamic braking may as well go all the way.

[ramblingboy42]

.....and just to put things into perspective for the electric fanciers.....

18....just 18 electric cars were sold in Australia in the last financial year.

btw , there weren't really many Defenders sold either.....so a new gen Defender powered by whatever alternative power system isn't going to raise the figures much either.....especially at the prices LR charge for their vehicles.

[Pickles2]

Let's not forget that JLR has invested half a billion GBP in its Ingenium 2L turbo diesel that has only recently started its life. They're going to want to get a decent return on that investment before replacing it with alternative technologies. It makes a lot of sense for it to be at the heart of the next Defender.

I'm sure electric vehicles are on their roadmap, but I think 2020 is too soon for it to be in a volume seller like the Defender is intended to be. I wouldn't be surprised if we see some sort of electric-hybrid technology appearing in the Range Rover fleet in that time frame though.
+1....Agree.
See my post 75 of 23/6!
Pickles.

[steane]

.....and just to put things into perspective for the electric fanciers.....

18....just 18 electric cars were sold in Australia in the last financial year.

btw , there weren't really many Defenders sold either.....so a new gen Defender powered by whatever alternative power system isn't going to raise the figures much either.....especially at the prices LR charge for their vehicles.

Last financial year is irrelevant. It's the next 10 years that are relevant.

Today's news - "Mercedes-Benz executives predict that the auto industry will change more over the next 10 years than it has in the past 50, and they see the company as well-positioned to capitalize on that change".

MB are voting next week on setting up a standalone EV brand.

[MrLandy]

Last financial year is irrelevant. It's the next 10 years that are relevant.

Today's news - "Mercedes-Benz executives predict that the auto industry will change more over the next 10 years than it has in the past 50, and they see the company as well-positioned to capitalize on that change".

MB are voting next week on setting up a standalone EV brand.

Three words. Hybrid diesel electric.

[PAT303]

...but I reckon you're right Sheerluck. It aint gonna happen. IF there is a new Defender it will be a botched D4, because the designers can't be arsed. This is particularly evident given what the new D5 looks like. Hmm a rebadged D4. Yup sad to say, Defender really is finished.

I'm old enough to remember when the 110 arrived,people carried on about how real 4wd's have leaf springs and wash out interiors,how did that change turn out ;). Pat

[PAT303]

Let's not forget that JLR has invested half a billion GBP in its Ingenium 2L turbo diesel that has only recently started its life. They're going to want to get a decent return on that investment before replacing it with alternative technologies. It makes a lot of sense for it to be at the heart of the next Defender.

I'm sure electric vehicles are on their roadmap, but I think 2020 is too soon for it to be in a volume seller like the Defender is intended to be. I wouldn't be surprised if we see some sort of electric-hybrid technology appearing in the Range Rover fleet in that time frame though.

They didn't just make Ingenium for themselves,they are going to sell ''crate'' motors to other manufactures so they don't need to invest 100's millions in R/D to meet stricter regulations,just buy off the shelf.Land Rover continue's to make very clever decisions. Pat

[MrLandy]

I'm old enough to remember when the 110 arrived,people carried on about how real 4wd's have leaf springs and wash out interiors,how did that change turn out ;). Pat

Well Pat, the majority of 'commercial' 4X4's still have leaf springs, but none can be hosed out. Go figure.

[PAT303]

No brakes now?

It's very old proven technology,traction motors set up this way have done more work in harsher conditions than we'll ever put them through fitted in a 4wd. Pat

[steane]

Three words. Hybrid diesel electric.

I've previously used those three words. I'm not saying the next Defender will start out an EV just that it will finish up an EV and the platform will need to allow for that.

Hybrids are the stepping stone, but it won't be too many years before they are obsolete as well.

Diesel is on the way out. Ingenium, despite the money spent, will have a shorter lifespan than expected when development first started. Some of the world's largest car manufacturers are turning their back on diesel and going straight to electric over the next decade. Diesel is a dead end now, thanks in a big way to dieselgate.

[MrLandy]

TD5 had a short run too. As did 2.4 and 2.2 puma. As they should given emissions / fuel consumption have barely changed since Tdi. Solar/electric can't come quick enough. The Mars Rover will need to be the Environment Defender.

[PAT303]

Well Pat, the majority of 'commercial' 4X4's still have leaf springs, but none can be hosed out. Go figure.

Please don't tell me you want to go back to leafs. Pat

[PAT303]

TD5 had a short run too. As did 2.4 and 2.2 puma. As they should given emissions / fuel consumption have barely changed since Tdi. Solar/electric can't come quick enough. The Mars Rover will need to be the Environment Defender.

The Tdi's ran for about 10 years,the Td5 for 6,the Puma's for 16.The TDCi doesn't return the Tdi's economy but the Tdi doesn't return the TDCi's performance so even stevens. Pat

[JDNSW]

The Tdi's ran for about 10 years,the Td5 for 6,the Puma's for 16........ Pat

And just for comparison, the first Rover diesel ran, with updates, for 34 years. Even if you just consider the 2.25, it ran for 22 years.

(Of course, some engines have run a lot longer - for example, Ford's flat head V8 ran for about fifty years, and VW's aircooled four ran for more than fifty. Rover's V8 ran for about thirty years.)

John

[MrLandy]

Please don't tell me you want to go back to leafs. Pat

As you well know Pat, I regard four coils as better than any other suspension set up.

[scarry]

As you well know Pat, I regard four coils as better than any other suspension set up.

A good air suspension set up would be better,as long as it is working correctly :D;)

[MrLandy]

A good air suspension set up would be better,as long as it is working correctly :D;)

Not reliable or simple enough for me Scarry.

[Beery]

It's very old proven technology,traction motors set up this way have done more work in harsher conditions than we'll ever put them through fitted in a 4wd. Pat

Like Pat says, very old, proven technology.

This is one is a Porsche petrol-electric circa 1900. Those are motors in the wheels, though I doubt this one used dynamic braking.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/94.jpg

[Beery]

This is the modern equivalent from Protean Electric.

The specs are:
Peak output power @ 400 Vdc 75 kW 100 HP
Continuous output power @ 400 Vdc 54 kW 72 HP

Peak output torque 1000 Nm 735 lb-ft
Continuous output torque 650 Nm 516 lb-ft
Nominal input voltage range 200-400Vdc 200-400VdcWidth 115 mm 4.5 inDiameter 420 mm 16.5 inTotal motor mass 34 kg 68 lb

Not seeing any need for geared hubs based on these figures.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/93.jpg

http://www.proteanelectric.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/2015-04-21__PE_MotorSpecGraph.png

[Beery]

Protean Electric have an engineering centre in England, U.S. and China.

They say...

"Protean Drive? is designed for a broad array of vehicles including sedans, SUVs, pickup trucks and commercial vans ? any vehicle with an 18- to 24-inch wheel. The system also can be added to existing cars and trucks, utilizing their current internal combustion engine drivetrain. This allows automakers to create hybrid vehicles in less time and with far fewer changes to the vehicle design and components.
Protean's system can increase fuel economy by over 30 percent, depending on the battery size and driving cycle. It is also powerful enough to be the only source for traction on a variety of vehicles. Its ease of integration can simplify the adoption of hybrid and electrified powertrains and save cost."

https://youtu.be/i1Ko3wgGI-E

https://youtu.be/oA4543CcxJo

https://youtu.be/ZnhmND1KQ_4

Don't fob off a Diesel Electric Defender just yet...

[cuppabillytea]

Told yez.

[cuppabillytea]

Electric Motor design is forging ahead rapidly. I imagine that it yould be both cheap and easy to replace In Hub Motors when ever the latest and greatest becomes available. Also the characteristics of the Motors could be tailored to suit the vehicle and its purpose. The concept also leaves suspension design wide open to innovation.

[PAT303]

Don't forget Land Rover already has liquid cooled axial flux motors to fix the heat problem,google the Jaguar X-75,I think thats what it's called. Pat

[Beery]

Yeah I was interested to read that these motors above are liquid cooled. With that sort of power density I guess you'd have to. 1000nm at each wheel isnt to be sneezed at.

Sent from my ZTE T84 using AULRO mobile app

[PAT303]

Thats 1000Nm peak at 50rpm,600 continuous going by the graph :o,yeh,not to be sneezed at :cool:. Pat

[Tote]

I think that if I was going to relaunch an iconic vehicle that 2018, 70 years after the first one might be a good marketing strategy.......

Regards,
Tote

[roverrescue]

Just read this on the interwebs so it must be true ;)

The revelation came as Volvo said it believes it has developed its last generation of petrol and diesel engines.
They are expected to continue another 10 years or so before hybrid and electric vehicles dominate the market.

In any case, if Lovlov are onto their last generation of ICE I can only imagine the future is closer than some might believe...

I would love to get a hold of some of those Protean inwheel motors...

I can envisage them in marine application.
Having all that torque at low rpm means you could throw a huge wheel - relegating the biggest drawback of prop driven boats to history (single speed)

I see a twin screw 100HP, 1000NM 400VDC lithium powered 32 footer
- 50 degrees cooling is easy at sea with a heat exchanger...
- "engines" weighing 70kg gives you about 500kg of battery capacity before coming close to twin diesos with gear boxs... better still you can place the batteries anywhere in the hull for best performance.
-Or run a smaller diseo generator to charge the batteries if needing more range!

silent high torque propulsion is near! Bring it!

Steve

[roverrescue]

Just had to look to compare

Volvo Penta D3 (marine diesel engine)
110HP is generated at 2500RPM
making 310NM
burning 13L/hr of diesel
dry weight 300kg

Imagine how big a prop 1000NM can be spun at 50rpm compared to the diesel that only generates 310NM at 2500rpm

I cant seem to see any figure on actual claimed electric motor efficiency of the Protean
but 75KW at 400V is 187A... lets say its 80% efficient you are only asking for 225A at 400VDC to make that thing sing!

Hmm just playing - see below
145kg of 400V lith gets you just 12 minutes run time at 200A
Might be a little bit compromising for range!
Thinking battery tech might have a ways to go before my dream boat comes to fruition!!!

http://www.brusa.eu/fileadmin/Diverses/Download/Datenblaetter/BRUSA_DB_EN_EVB1.pdf

[AndyG]

e revelation came as Volvo said it believes it has developed its last generation of petrol and diesel engines.
They are expected to continue another 10 years or so before hybrid and electric vehicles dominate the market.

There will always be a petrol, diesel, hydrogen motor to service the hybrid part.

Are we off thread yet enough.

[PAT303]

Just read this on the interwebs so it must be true ;)

The revelation came as Volvo said it believes it has developed its last generation of petrol and diesel engines.
They are expected to continue another 10 years or so before hybrid and electric vehicles dominate the market.

In any case, if Lovlov are onto their last generation of ICE I can only imagine the future is closer than some might believe...

I would love to get a hold of some of those Protean inwheel motors...

I can envisage them in marine application.
Having all that torque at low rpm means you could throw a huge wheel - relegating the biggest drawback of prop driven boats to history (single speed)

I see a twin screw 100HP, 1000NM 400VDC lithium powered 32 footer
- 50 degrees cooling is easy at sea with a heat exchanger...
- "engines" weighing 70kg gives you about 500kg of battery capacity before coming close to twin diesos with gear boxs... better still you can place the batteries anywhere in the hull for best performance.
-Or run a smaller diseo generator to charge the batteries if needing more range!

silent high torque propulsion is near! Bring it!

Steve

I see electric vehicles in cities but in the country,no chance.There will still be a need for ICE powered vehicles,either directly as they do now or by a genie to traction motors. Pat

[roverrescue]

but in the country,no chance

So current Lithium Ion technology can give a +/-200mile (320km) range
Lithium Sulpher with up to 5 times the energy density should stretch that to 1000km+

never say never

VW quite likely did more for hybrid/EV technology than imaginable.
On one hand the US will continue to tighten even more on vehicle emissions - as well as fund Musk etal.

LR I am sure are gazing into crystal balls to make the right play for the next generation of vehicles if they are to not become a legacy brand.

Defender is an iconic brand - LR could do worse than release a "new defender for the electric age". Perhaps the Series I utilises a small diesel (EU based emphasis) hybrid to power traction motors.

s

[Andrew86]

but in the country,no chanceVW quite likely did more for hybrid/EV technology than imaginable.
On one hand the US will continue to tighten even more on vehicle emissions - as well as fund Musk etal.

US emissions laws are a form of protectionism thinly disguised as environmental policy. They make life tough for foreign diesels, but they're a LONG way from threatening the medium term future of locally produced ICE vehicles. Until Detroit gets serious about electric, I can't see that changing. The 5-6 litre V8 is still the bread and butter of the North American roads.

It's exciting to see where the technology goes with EVs in the next few years, particularly with regard to the batteries. The Model S is an awesome piece of engineering, but 2.1 tonnes is too much pork. Getting the weight down and the capacity up is going to be the big challenge.

[roverrescue]

My point is that with the US keeping small "environmentally friendly" diesels out will by market forces push the EU players VW,BMW, Peugeot, Renault, Volvo etc etc to increase investment in electric options to enable them to break into the huge US market.

Detroit (who to be fair are trying - aluminium and composite bodies, lighter V6s with forced induction etc etc) will be slowly left behind.

Of course if you listen to economists the EU could all fall down and plunge us into the dark ages for another 1000 years

s

[steane]

More V6 F150s are being sold than V8s now.

[steane]

but in the country,no chance

So current Lithium Ion technology can give a +/-200mile (320km) range
Lithium Sulpher with up to 5 times the energy density should stretch that to 1000km+

never say never


I agree. EVs with big ranges will be a reality and they won't have an issue in the country. The only thing that will change is refueling and it would be wrong (IMO) to assume that that is an issue that will hold them back. It will just be one of many changes we have coming in the next decade.

[PAT303]

but in the country,no chance

So current Lithium Ion technology can give a +/-200mile (320km) range
Lithium Sulpher with up to 5 times the energy density should stretch that to 1000km+

never say never

VW quite likely did more for hybrid/EV technology than imaginable.
On one hand the US will continue to tighten even more on vehicle emissions - as well as fund Musk etal.

LR I am sure are gazing into crystal balls to make the right play for the next generation of vehicles if they are to not become a legacy brand.

Defender is an iconic brand - LR could do worse than release a "new defender for the electric age". Perhaps the Series I utilises a small diesel (EU based emphasis) hybrid to power traction motors.

s

Never going to happen,320km range is under test conditions by a test driver,a normal person driving on a normal road with head winds,load,inclines etc will be half.Remember that that range is with fully charged batteries also,anyone who believes 100% electric will displace ICE needs to think of why after 100 years motor vehicles are the only mode of transport that has never changed,everything else,ships,trains,planes have evolved,cars never have. Pat

[Disco-tastic]

Never going to happen,320km range is under test conditions by a test driver,a normal person driving on a normal road with head winds,load,inclines etc will be half.Remember that that range is with fully charged batteries also,anyone who believes 100% electric will displace ICE needs to think of why after 100 years motor vehicles are the only mode of transport that has never changed,everything else,ships,trains,planes have evolved,cars never have. Pat

http://3bv8x43y68hc448rg43goku7yq.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/media/2013/04/Opel-Patent-Motor-Wagen-System-Lutzmann-1899_01-600x420.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/21.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/22.jpg

Yep... You're right Pat. The car has never evolved :wasntme:

[PAT303]

All still have an engine,gearbox,four wheels and a steering wheel,how many sailing ships,steam trains and biplanes still earn a living today ;). Pat

[MrLandy]

All have hulls, wings, or run on tracks.

[vnx205]

All still have an engine,gearbox,four wheels and a steering wheel,how many sailing ships,steam trains and biplanes still earn a living today ;). Pat

Gearbox? Tesla?

The car started with three wheels and no steering wheel; the Benz Patent Motorwagen.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/1114.jpg

The Morgan stlll has three wheels.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/1115.jpg

[bee utey]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxryv2XrnqM

[AndyG]

How the heck does the Morgan dodge the rules, including the ugly test.
Limited production volume, or do they think its a ride on mower :D

[AndyG]

The 1958 Ford Nucleon: A Nuclear-Powered Car | Oddly Historical (http://www.oddlyhistorical.com/2014/07/21/1958-ford-nucleon-nuclear-powered-car/)

Let's not muck around, lets get some decent range into our beasts.
A little bit more R&D required

[manic]

I agree. EVs with big ranges will be a reality and they won't have an issue in the country. The only thing that will change is refueling and it would be wrong (IMO) to assume that that is an issue that will hold them back. It will just be one of many changes we have coming in the next decade.

I like your optimism, but I think it's at least a quarter century before the majority are getting transported in battery powered ev's! After bringing them to market they still have to sell over half a billion.

[Didge]

Digital cameras were never gonna take over either - apparently the battery boffins are on the verge of a breakthrough that will see vastly increased capacity that will make electric cars common. Apparently Australia has the largest deposits of vanadium (liquid that can store a charge) in the world and Unisearch at the Uni of NSW was making great inroads into investigating how it could be utlised as an alternative to conventional fossil fuels but the govt, in their wisdom, pulled the plug on the funding. Imagine the Saudis pulling the plug on oil exploration. It would have been so easy, running low on charge, full into a charging station, empty the depleted vanadium and fill up on charged stuff. Electric cars will take over - not much to hold them back as long as the source of power is clean.

Also, 9kg swap'n'go gas bottles sounded stupid at first.

[steane]

I like your optimism, but I think it's at least a quarter century before the majority are getting transported in battery powered ev's! After bringing them to market they still have to sell over half a billion.

It's not my view that the majority will be driving EVs in 10 years. My view is that 10 years from now EVs will be a perfectly viable alternative for all motorists, even those out bush and all manufacturers will be building them and eventually phasing out the ICE. That might seem optimistic, but I think most people under estimate how quickly this is ramping up.

There has been a fundamental shift over the last year and car manufacturers are all heading in the same direction now.

Time will tell!

[bee utey]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmcMmYdF6lA

[manic]

10 years for a battery powered 4wd that could replace the defenders range, towing, payload etc. and just as affordable. Surely an optimistic estimate.

10 years is wishful thinking, I'm not saying impossible, but unlikely IMO.

[manic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmcMmYdF6lA

2016 and we have to go back to a 19th century solution! There needs to be some major breakthroughs in efficient, cheap, high capacity, long life, lightweight battery storage that can be mass produced, recycled with minimal eco impact.... and soon!

If only they could make huge amounts of hydrogen from solar power, failing that go nuclear. Still need to distribute it like oil but if tankers and trucks are all running on it, it could be a cleaner more sustainable path.

[MrLandy]

There's no way I would buy a nuclear powered car. But I'd definately be an early adopter of a truly solar powered vehicle if it ever becomes a reality, or if base load power becomes environmentally friendly through solar, wind, hydro, etc. and if batteries can be swapped out anywhere. Otherwise diesel hybrid is the way to go and most likely in next 10 years.

[Beery]

If only they could make huge amounts of hydrogen from solar power, failing that go nuclear. Still need to distribute it like oil but if tankers and trucks are all running on it, it could be a cleaner more sustainable path.


We could try harnessing lightning to electrolyse huge amounts of sea water to produce huge amounts of hydrogen.
Build a big conductor tower to transmit the DC charge into a massive reactor capable of capturing the resulting gas.

Holy cr@p it would be one hell of a reaction to watch.

[Pickles2]

Lots of talk about electric power,....I don't see that in the new Defender.
Pickles.

[Beery]

http://www.csiro.au/en/News/News-releases/2016/Salt-baths-boost-next-gen-batteries-for-electric-cars?featured=F29EDEB1728C4A92B579C7A5DC28BAD5

The CSIRO have a new battery technology that they are calling an electric car industry 'disruptor'.

Bathing lithium battery electrodes in a salt bath...

Disruptor technology = good thing

[DefenderSte]

If it were a Hybrid would the electrical side give the engine more power on the torque side of things......?? :D

[MrLandy]

I think a new JLR EV 4x4 is the only other plausible reason (other than the probability that Defender really is finished) for the constant delays in any real announcement on a new Defender.

While nothing definitive, there are many related stories drawing on the electric Defender trials in 2013 and the fast growing EV design industry. Eg:
Jaguar - Land Rover developing electric crossover | Digital Trends (http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/jaguar-land-rover-designing-electric-suv-2018/)

If this is true, they can take as long as they need to get it right IMO. If a new model Defender is a truly environmentally friendly EV and retains its pragmatic heavy duty capability and long distance touring capability within an excellent design I will gladly eat humble pie....and buy one.

[PAT303]

Again we are talking environmentally friendly,there isn't anything environmentally friendly about digging big holes in the ground to get the material,producing lots of waste processing the material,digging bigger holes to get coal thats then burnt producing power to make all this work plus then having to recycle it at the end not to mention burning more coal to power the thing through it's life.There's a reason why Toyota manufactures the Prius batteries in China and recycles them in India ;). Pat

[MrLandy]

Absolutely Pat. The real deal in environmentally friendly electric vehicles is potentially a long way off. Which is why diesel hybrid is most likely. But there will be a lot more environmentally friendly pressure on vehicle manufacturers over the next 5 years than even imagined now IMO. The big question is whether the design of a new Defender is a priority in this environment. A Defender isn't primarily an urban vehicle, unless JLR trivialise it. I'm actually surprised that we don't yet have a hybrid Disco Sport.

[rar110]

I'm sure there will be a hybrid D5 now JLR have had it on the L405. They will try it on either the Evoque or Disco Sport.

I think a while after after the D4 is replaced by the rounder D5, JLR will start road testing a new Defender which will be more square shaped like the very successful D4 than the last Defender. However it will need to fit a market segment that doesn't take sales from the D5.

[MrLandy]

JLR will start road testing a new Defender which will be more square shaped like the very successful D4 than the last Defender. However it will need to fit a market segment that doesn't take sales from the D5.

If so, Defender will effectively be a D5, even if it's called a Defender. New Discovey will just be called Discovery and will take market share from Range Rover Sport, Audi, BMW, VW, etc. Many previous D4 customers will then buy new Defender instead and the previous Defender buyers will have nowhere to go. It's arguably a predictable slight of hand by JLR to extricate itself from the HD work vehicle segment and it's been JLR's plan all along IMO.

[PAT303]

Yes Mr Landy,you are right,the next Defender will be a D5 fitted with Defender stickers because Land Rover have forgotten how to build rough tough vehicles for real Ozzie men and instead has it's sights aimed squarely at the Gay hairdresser crowd :confused:. Pat

[cafe latte]

Yes Mr Landy,you are right,the next Defender will be a D5 fitted with Defender stickers because Land Rover have forgotten how to build rough tough vehicles for real Ozzie men and instead has it's sights aimed squarely at the Gay hairdresser crowd :confused:. Pat

Actually the sales guy who sold me my Defender is gay and one of the best 4x4 drivers at the dealer too. And a very decent bloke too.
Chris

[MrLandy]

Land Rover drivers' sexuality has nothing to do with anything in this discussion. I'm not discussing drivers. I'm discussing vehicles and the likely outcomes of Land Rover's shift in focus towards luxury and urban centric designs, the end of Defender and what a new Defender might or might not be.

[karlz]

Agree

[sheerluck]

.....If so, Defender will effectively be a D5, even if it's called a Defender.....

As opposed to now, where it's effectively a Ford Transit.

[cuppabillytea]

As opposed to now, where it's effectively a Ford Transit.

Arrgh I'm cut to the bone. [bawl]

[scarry]

Arrgh I'm cut to the bone. [bawl]

Don't worry,i am sure last time i saw a Ford transit it looked nothing like a Deefer.And i am sure the Deefer doesn't look like a transit.

Or am i missing something??

Must be a mistake somewhere.:o

[sheerluck]

Nope, no mistake here Paul. ;)

There was a reason for the post, and I shall elaborate.

MrLandy is cutting up rough about how the Defender is a perfect 4wd, the likes of which will never be seen again. It is a pure and unadulterated, the pinnacle of 60 years of non-development, and Land Rover have lost the plot in not creating an updated version, but nothing could ever come close to the original anyway. *pauses for breath*

His point is that if the "new" Defender (if it happens) is based on another vehicle in the Land Rover range, rather than a ground up redesign, then it won't be a Defender in his eyes.

However, how many parts in the Defender are truly Defender parts, and haven't originated in other Land Rover vehicles or other brands?

The engine and gearbox came from a Ford Transit, 5 years before it was used in the Puma. The transfer box was originally used in the Range Rover, and later used in the Defender. (I think, someone may correct me on that one)
The diffs came from a P38. The switches came from a Austin Metro (or Marina?). Some of the interior panels are from a Transit. The instrument panel came from the D3.

So that leaves the seats and sheet metal I reckon.

So it's already "based" on something else.

[PAT303]

Land Rover drivers' sexuality has nothing to do with anything in this discussion. I'm not discussing drivers. I'm discussing vehicles and the likely outcomes of Land Rover's shift in focus towards luxury and urban centric designs, the end of Defender and what a new Defender might or might not be.

Been here over and over,you carry on as if the new Defender will be rubbish because it'll have stuff in it like effective A/C,cabin space,leg room,insulation,a radio you can hear,stuff that all the competition has and has had for years. If Land Rover doesn't make the new Defender meet all the requirements we will never be able to buy a new one,or we go the Toyota route with the LC and make a vehicle everyone wants but can't afford. Pat

[MrLandy]

Where do you guys get off on speaking for someone else as the basis for your argument? Attempting to put words in some else's mouth just sounds silly and a bit desperate. You're very welcome to disagree, but stick to your own points rather than misrepresenting mine.

[scarry]

Nope, no mistake here Paul. ;)

There was a reason for the post, and I shall elaborate.

MrLandy is cutting up rough about how the Defender is a perfect 4wd, the likes of which will never be seen again. It is a pure and unadulterated, the pinnacle of 60 years of non-development, and Land Rover have lost the plot in not creating an updated version, but nothing could ever come close to the original anyway. *pauses for breath*

His point is that if the "new" Defender (if it happens) is based on another vehicle in the Land Rover range, rather than a ground up redesign, then it won't be a Defender in his eyes.

However, how many parts in the Defender are truly Defender parts, and haven't originated in other Land Rover vehicles or other brands?

The engine and gearbox came from a Ford Transit, 5 years before it was used in the Puma. The transfer box was originally used in the Range Rover, and later used in the Defender. (I think, someone may correct me on that one)
The diffs came from a P38. The switches came from a Austin Metro (or Marina?). Some of the interior panels are from a Transit. The instrument panel came from the D3.

So that leaves the seats and steel metal I reckon.

So it's already "based" on something else.

Yes i knew,just taking the p... out

True,if you look at the 2.4 engine it has Ford stamped on it somewhere,and other parts have ford on them as well.

What MR Landy has been saying over many posts is true,i recon it is the end of an icon as well.
A shame,but these are the things that have to happen in our ever-changing world,for numerous different reasons.

And as for the general public,as buyers of these vehicles,whether new or second hand,enthusiasts,collectors,or whatever,they have no say in what goes on.

It is all about manufacturers getting a share of the market,and making the $$,complying with safety and emission regs,etc.

For that matter,most of the D4 parts have ford stickers on them as well.

[ramblingboy42]

Pat, ships, trains and aeroplanes basically use constant engine speeds and are made to be most efficient in their cruise modes.

and as you said , cars haven't really evolved as an efficient mode of transport, but I think that's our fault. We want cars to be multirole but that may have to change very soon.

[sheerluck]

I agree it's the end of an icon, but that is different to saying that nothing could possibly replace it.

Rubbishing a potential new design, just because it might possibly, perhaps, could happen to include some design features tried and tested on another model is not quite right in my eyes, particularly when it already happens!

[loneranger]

I have full confidence the new Defender will be an awesome vehicle but whether I want one will be another matter. I reckon by the time I'm in the market for a 'new Defender' they'll be as old as the Disco currently is so it will have already created its own legend. :D

[MrLandy]

Reckon you guys need to read a few more of my posts over the past two years. I'm all for a new Defender, just not a D4 pretending to be one, or a 'nostalgia' vehicle. Land Rover have neglected Defender re-design for at least a decade and have now departed the heavy duty 4x4 sector. If they were serious about Defender there would be a new model already.

[Tombie]

Reckon you guys need to read a few more of my posts over the past two years. I'm all for a new Defender, just not a D4 pretending to be one, or a 'nostalgia' vehicle. Land Rover have neglected Defender re-design for at least a decade and have now departed the heavy duty 4x4 sector. If they were serious about Defender there would be a new model already.



They've had NO money, were setting up for success first..
Were under EU pressure to meet Crash and Emissions they were struggling to get to.

Must be nice to live in the land of rainbows and unicorns..

Where you speak "matter of fact" about "neglected" yet there are multiple instances of concepts way beyond the latest going back 10-15 years ago - suggest you go on a search....


I'd also suggest a D4 platform is a heavier duty platform than the outgoing Defender chassis by a significant margin...

A T5 platform without the burden of the 7 seat configuration & using the armoured suspension parts would likely be good for a 1-1.5t payload vehicle.

After all a Defender chassis is essentially the bastard child of a Rangie with some Series mounts welded on!!!

Known for cracking Spring mounts, steering box mounts, rear cross members, and more frequently in recent years - 130s getting a broken backbone...

[MrLandy]

No money? Oh my heart goes out. Poor Land Rover. ...Talk about unicorns.

I don't buy it. There's been no shortage of money to develop every other model.

[PAT303]

Where do you guys get off on speaking for someone else as the basis for your argument? Attempting to put words in some else's mouth just sounds silly and a bit desperate. You're very welcome to disagree, but stick to your own points rather than misrepresenting mine.

Huh?,how many different threads have you joined about the possible Defender replacement and contributed nothing but criticism against Land Rover Management about not making the replacement vehicle basic even though I,along with many others on here have pointed out that it cannot be that way because the Vehicle must comply to modern vehicle safety,emissions and manufacturing requirements.You have not posted one positive thing about the Defender replacement in any of the discussions you have joined even though you have no idea what the Defender replacement will be even after Land Rover themselves pushed the replacement vehicle back another two years after they released a statement saying they weren't happy with what they currently designed,a vehicle based on the T5 platform and canned the lot and went back to the drawing board.My responses to you started out being based on facts as I saw them but changed once I released many replies ago your position of negativity was set in stone. Pat

[PAT303]

No money? Oh my heart goes out. Poor Land Rover. ...Talk about unicorns.

I don't buy it. There's been no shortage of money to develop every other model.

Were do you think Land Rovers money comes from,the current Defender?. Pat

[sheerluck]

No money? Oh my heart goes out. Poor Land Rover. ...Talk about unicorns.

I don't buy it. There's been no shortage of money to develop every other model.

Looking at it with a pure business head, why would they splash much cash on a new Defender? JLR sold nearly half a million vehicles in 2014, of which a quarter were Evoques, and only 17000 or so were Defenders.
In 2015, when the whole "end of the world is nigh, they aren't making Defenders any more" hype started, they sold 23000 Defenders out of their 487000 total vehicles. They are handbuilt, on a production line with very low levels of automation, nailed together by Sam and Kevin in the deepest, darkest recesses of the Solihull factory. And Sam and Kevin's tea and biscuit bill is not to be sneezed at.

If it typically costs about $1billion to develop a new vehicle, they are going to have the added cost (assuming they have visions of making it a volume seller, and trying to compete with the current commercial and Ute type market) of properly setting up a factory to make them as well. Or even building them in one of the two new premises they are constructing currently.

So cash wise, they want another Evoque. Their success with the new models is the reason why they can now afford to take a look at the Defender.

[sheerluck]

And to take a look at JLR's sales volumes, see Retail volumes reporting | Jaguar Land Rover Corporate Website (http://www.jaguarlandrover.com/gl/en/investor-relations/downloads/retail-volumes-reporting/)

[MrLandy]

Firstly, I'm not going to be blindly positive about a mythical new Defender when there is ZERO evidence from JLR pointing to its reality, and on the contrary there is an indisputable track record of severe lack of development of Defender and a history of botched promises and attempts.

Secondly, the reason Defender sales have been so low is precisely due to the lack of Defender re-development over 20 years.

How they do it is one thing. Whether they actually do it is another.

JLR should be ashamed of the lack of attention and low priority placed on their most iconic vehicle over decades...and I don't see any evidence of anything changing (except of it getting worse with end of production). I do however see massive evidence of JLR shifting to a 100% luxury vehicle business model, with zero interested in heavy duty work vehicles.

Sorry to say, but I don't think it's me following the unicorn.

[Pickles2]

No money? Oh my heart goes out. Poor Land Rover. ...Talk about unicorns.

I don't buy it. There's been no shortage of money to develop every other model.
Mr Landy. If you care to read a bit of Landrover history, you will note that pretty much continually during British Leyland, BMW, Ford ownership, there has been talk of "this should've / could've" been done to Defender, which during all this time has been suffering continually decreasing sales, because of vastly increasing numbers of competition, and the fact that the Defender's BASIC CONFIGURATION made it impossible to viably modify, to "keep up" with the opposition,....even if they fitted airbags, made it emission compliant etc etc etc, the basic configuration was & is "over the hill"....it's "old school" stuff,...which is why production has ended & a "New" Defender is coming, which I say we will know something about by 2018.
The fact is, well I think anyway, there's no way "our" Defender could be kept in production, for many many reasons, including cost of production etc etc...it was at the end of "ITS" road.
Whilst I have no knowledge, nor does ANYONE else, to "criticize" any "New" Defender, I'm confident, that when it arrives, it will be an excellent vehicle, like every other recent release from JLR,....I'd rather it wasn't called a Defender, but I'm afraid it will be, but I'm sure it'll be worthy of the name.
Pickles.

[Tombie]

Considering a major staple of heavy offroad use in the Mining game is a Prado I'd suggest it won't be hard to build something more than capable of the rough and tumble.

With airbags, AC, Integrated IPhone and Bt, a decent load rating, air suspension and a cabin that stays dust free and doesn't leak.

The Defender is, was and always has been a compromise vehicle... (Nothing wrong with that). And is the reason for the enormous range of bespoke parts born from a cottage industry.

I have cogitated upon the stance LR have taken on the Defender and believe there's no failing on their part.

It's more a case of sentimentality of the human condition to lament old designs due to familiarity or feeling invoked.

Case in point - I can not stand VN Commodores - horrible bloated things - yet they invoke much enjoyment in 16-20 somethings.
XY GT HO P3s - many a great memory - my family had one, and an RT Charger, a Datsun 1600, and FJ, an XJS Jag, a Split Window VW...
All just cars - nothing spectacular- and certainly horrendous in overall measure by modern standards. I had the opportunity to drive a Concourse GT a few years back and while I smiled I also cried - Smiled in a straight line, cried at corners, curves, parking....

Now those vehicles are all considered Iconic - and besides VW who did a modern version none of the other have, and the world has moved on to vehicles full of acronyms that are a much more rounded and overall driveable vehicle...

Back to LR - the Defender was a legacy of a companies struggle to survive. Through continual financial stress the Hand built vehicle which would end up the Defender continued.. Along with its Panel gaps, exposed rivets, offset steering position. It's a testament to the fortitude of the company that they didn't have it shut down decades before hand...

They convinced multiple owners to keep it being made, and quietly continued to produce evolutions for consideration by the boards over the years.

Almost every one of these was rejected by the public...

Conversely FoMoCo released a single model Falcon with the best headlights of any motor vehicle of the era and was a sales flop... A timely warning to designers..

LRs development of a more agricultural/ workhorse vehicle is fraught with risk... If they try to make it an all rounder they'll get hammered by traditionalists, without any modern gear they'll lose new markets.
It MUST have all the safety gear by law and to even have a chance to penetrate many work sites, and it must be capable.

One thing it can't have is a mechano construction and hope to pass any NCAP testing - a now essential rating required to get sales on volume.

We really enjoy our Defender - we really do...
It's quirks of design make it endearing.
It stands out in a crowd and garners comment from those with fond memories of an old LR in their youth.

It also gets comment ad nauseum about reliability issues, broken axles, leaks...
We smile and advise that we've never had a problem.

Given time LR will develop a new vehicle and bring it to market, it may never draw the attention of the traditional Series/Defender owner however it will likely fill a more utility based market in a very useful and impressive way.

[Tombie]

MrLandy - for all your posts will you answer one question...

If the LR Defender continued in its current MY16 guise would you be looking to buy another in the next 5 years? (Assume your current vehicles don't have any issues etc)

[Tombie]

Sorry for using modern technology to post these threads - Couldn't find the old 2400 modem to dial into a BBS and my Punch card system is long relegated to the land fill... [emoji48]

[rar110]

I remember talking to Mal Story, a long time ago when he was in business. He reckoned the Defender was weak rubbish and they should have kept building 110s and maybe early range rovers with sensible aftermarket upgrades to the drive train. I'm sure I've read that dedicated series owners thought the 110s were posh rubbish with carpet and cloth seats. Lots of people will hate a new Defender with auto, real aircon, terrain response etc.

[Pickles2]

I remember talking to Mal Story, a long time ago when he was in business. He reckoned the Defender was weak rubbish and they should have kept building 110s and maybe early range rovers with sensible aftermarket upgrades to the drive train. I'm sure I've read that dedicated series owners thought the 110s were posh rubbish with carpet and cloth seats. Lots of people will hate a new Defender with auto, real aircon, terrain response etc.
"Lots of people will hate"......, but I'd suggest, and this is what JLR will be thinking, "a lot more people will like",....and that is the secret, JLR have to produce vehicles that will sell (Defender was not), & make some dollars, and I reckon they've been doing a pretty good job of that lately,....better than most actually.
Pickles.

[rar110]

"Lots of people will hate"......, but I'd suggest, and this is what JLR will be thinking, "a lot more people will like",....and that is the secret, JLR have to produce vehicles that will sell (Defender was not), & make some dollars, and I reckon they've been doing a pretty good job of that lately,....better than most actually. Pickles.

Yes, I think so. A lot more.

I think JLR might worry that some proportion of buyers might be former hard driving Disco customers. So it might be speced LIKE a D4 S with TR and round xenon lights as an expensive option. A Defender speced up to an entry level D5 will probably cost more than a D5.

[MrLandy]

MrLandy - for all your posts will you answer one question...

If the LR Defender continued in its current MY16 guise would you be looking to buy another in the next 5 years? (Assume your current vehicles don't have any issues etc)

Most likely not Tombie. Mainly because I can't afford to upgrade every five years. Maybe every 15 or so. ...How about you?

[MrLandy]

Sorry for using modern technology to post these threads - Couldn't find the old 2400 modem to dial into a BBS and my Punch card system is long relegated to the land fill... [emoji48]

I love new technology, when it's good, not invasive, secure and straightforward. I'm not into techno bling. Glad to be online.

[Stuart02]

I'm sure electric vehicles are on their roadmap, but I think 2020 is too soon for it to be in a volume seller like the Defender is intended to be. I wouldn't be surprised if we see some sort of electric-hybrid technology appearing in the Range Rover fleet in that time frame though.

There already is a diesel hybrid RRS! It's a given there'll be more hybrids and if a hybrid gets me 1200 kms from a tank I'm not at all worried!


Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[MrLandy]

Mr Landy. If you care to read a bit of Landrover history, you will note that pretty much continually during British Leyland, BMW, Ford ownership, there has been talk of "this should've / could've" been done to Defender, which during all this time has been suffering continually decreasing sales, because of vastly increasing numbers of competition, and the fact that the Defender's BASIC CONFIGURATION made it impossible to viably modify, to "keep up" with the opposition,....even if they fitted airbags, made it emission compliant etc etc etc, the basic configuration was & is "over the hill"....it's "old school" stuff,...which is why production has ended & a "New" Defender is coming, which I say we will know something about by 2018.

Thanks Pickles, you have actually perfectly illustrated my point. I'm not arguing that Defender shouldn't change. I'm arguing that it should have changed much earlier in order to stay out in front.

In contemporary time, I'm arguing that JLR designers should have the capability to remodel Defender, using all available technologies, while maintaining its iconic form, dimensions and capability. I'm arguing that any new Defender design had better be up to spec and I'm trying to make it very clear that I think (contrary to what most of you guys think) this is unlikely given JLR's current trajectory. I'm very happy to agree to disagree. We will see who's right in 2020 or so! ....Or never :p

[Tombie]

Most likely not Tombie. Mainly because I can't afford to upgrade every five years. Maybe every 15 or so. ...How about you?



I'm on track to consider whatever comes out circa 2018.

To sway me over it will want the comforts of the D4....

[MrLandy]

I'm on track to consider whatever comes out circa 2018.

To sway me over it will want the comforts of the D4....

Don't worry Tombie, if it materialises it will essentially be a D4 with a Defender badge, no question. This was confirmed in my mind when I saw the pics of the D5 zebra on the race track!

Which means I'll either never replace my 2014 Defender, or will have to choose something else because a D4 doesn't meet my requirements.

Cheers

[Tombie]

But MrLandy - it's dimensions are absolutely Poor!!!!! It's like the Anti-Tardis [emoji12] from outside they look huge, inside they're rather snug (even for smaller framed individuals).

Tight inside, offset driving position etc.
Limited leg room for second row.
And a back door design which is Iconic as it is impractical!

Even Icelandic versions are cut and shut wider in the body/chassis by 12" and then track widened again...

You have your preference for the current shape and I fully understand why - they're great fun... Whatever comes out of LR next will be suited to the needs of the world market, LR are demonstrating that admirably in the last decade or so.

[MrLandy]

There already is a diesel hybrid RRS! It's a given there'll be more hybrids and if a hybrid gets me 1200 kms from a tank I'm not at all worried!


Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

Yup, for $150K and there's no way I'd take it out bush on a regular basis.

A totally redesigned Defender, keeping its iconic form, exterior dimensions and heavy duty practicality, with hybrid diesel, base model for circa $60K ...now we're talking. But it won't happen IMO.

[MrLandy]

But MrLandy - it's dimensions are absolutely Poor!!!!! It's like the Anti-Tardis [emoji12] from outside they look huge, inside they're rather snug (even for smaller framed individuals).

Tight inside, offset driving position etc.
Limited leg room for second row.
And a back door design which is Iconic as it is impractical!

Even Icelandic versions are cut and shut wider in the body/chassis by 12" and then track widened again...

You have your preference for the current shape and I fully understand why - they're great fun... Whatever comes out of LR next will be suited to the needs of the world market, LR are demonstrating that admirably in the last decade or so.

I disagree with the anti-tardis argument. Mine are absolutely Tardis! Friends can't believe how much I can fit in. And park next to a Tojo Troopy and they don't look so big. Much smaller, shorter and way easier to park than all current dualcab utes on the market!

I also really like the snug driving position and visibility it affords.

Ok I'll pass the new design if it's scaled up, keeping overall shape. ...deal? :cool:

[PAT303]

Yup, for $150K and there's no way I'd take it out bush on a regular basis.

A totally redesigned Defender, keeping its iconic form, exterior dimensions and heavy duty practicality, with hybrid diesel, base model for circa $60K ...now we're talking. But it won't happen IMO.

I think I'm done,I'm getting sick of the repeated negativity across numerous threads even though it's been explained over and over why the Defender has to change and LR themselves had said outright that it won't be a rebadged Discovery.Mr Landy you have decided not to listen to whats posted repeatedly which leads me to believe you have an agenda that your sticking with,good luck with it. Pat

[Stuart02]

Yup, for $150K and there's no way I'd take it out bush on a regular basis.

A totally redesigned Defender, keeping its iconic form, exterior dimensions and heavy duty practicality, with hybrid diesel, base model for circa $60K ...now we're talking. But it won't happen IMO.

What's your opinion based on?
Yeah um I was theorising about a hybrid Defender based on trickle down from what's already on offer.
And besides, am I going to spend $150k on an amazing 4WD and not take it off road regularly? Hell no!!

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[ramblingboy42]

I'm arguing that it should have changed much earlier in order to stay out in front. (quote from Mr Landy)

Mr Landy, what exactly do you think it should have changed to?

You have already been informed so many times that in it's inherent design it wasn't possible to change it further without redesigning and re-engineering from the wheels up.

This is what JLR are currently doing.... they are changing it so they CAN stay out in front.

What part of your own wording don't you understand?

[MrLandy]

Defender should have been redesigned from the ground up years ago, just as all other Land Rover models have been, so that there is a new model ready to go now. Yet, Defender still hasn't been redesigned. There is no actual proof that it is being redesigned. Until there is, all any of us can do is speculate. I am speculating that it won't meet my expectations. You guys are all speculating that it will be awesome. So be it. We have a difference of opinion. You don't have to agree with me and I don't have to agree with you. That's cool with me. Cheers

[Tombie]

Defender should have been redesigned from the ground up years ago, just as all other Land Rover models have been, so that there is a new model ready to go now. Yet, Defender still hasn't been redesigned. There is no actual proof that it is being redesigned. Until there is, all any of us can do is speculate. I am speculating that it won't meet my expectations. You guys are all speculating that it will be awesome. So be it. We have a difference of opinion. You don't have to agree with me and I don't have to agree with you. That's cool with me. Cheers

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/961.jpg

[MrLandy]

I think I'm done,I'm getting sick of the repeated negativity across numerous threads even though it's been explained over and over why the Defender has to change and LR themselves had said outright that it won't be a rebadged Discovery.Mr Landy you have decided not to listen to whats posted repeatedly which leads me to believe you have an agenda that your sticking with,good luck with it. Pat

It's clear that I don't agree with your agenda Pat, but no more than you have decided not to listen to my perspective. Best wishes.

[MrLandy]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/961.jpg

...no more than the broken fanboy record blindly celebrating a new Defender that doesn't even exist.

[MrLandy]

What's your opinion based on?
Yeah um I was theorising about a hybrid Defender based on trickle down from what's already on offer.
And besides, am I going to spend $150k on an amazing 4WD and not take it off road regularly? Hell no!!

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

My opinion is based on my own observations, experience and intellect. Cheers

[Avion8]

Caught a glimpse of the possible successor at the York Motor Show on Sunday:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/952.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/jodel1050/media/Heritage%2090/Fatfender_zpsjga2ihge.jpg.html)

The clue is in the Rego!

[MrLandy]

Caught a glimpse of the possible successor at the York Motor Show on Sunday:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/952.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/jodel1050/media/Heritage%2090/Fatfender_zpsjga2ihge.jpg.html)

The clue is in the Rego!

Beautiful!! ...how many airbags? :angel::D

[MrLandy]

deleted double post

[Tombie]

My opinion is based on my own observations, experience and intellect. Cheers



2 out of 3 isn't bad... [emoji48][emoji48][emoji48][emoji48]

[MrLandy]

2 out of 3 isn't bad... [emoji48][emoji48][emoji48][emoji48]

Nice Tombie. Very impressive.

[tact]

[...] I am speculating that it won't meet my expectations. You guys are all speculating that it will be awesome. So be it. We have a difference of opinion. [...]

Well said. And completely fits the facts that most of the forum punters here will have already observed in multiple threads - that your personal expectations won't be met by the thus far undefined "new Defender".

I sure don't "need" to be told again of how disappointed you expect to be by the new Defender, nor of your doubts that there will even be a new Defender. I got it already. I also accept that while I don't "need" to be told again - you have a right to share your opinion again, and again, and again... even outside of the threads you created for that purpose. I just don't enjoy it.

I do, however, enjoy a good chin wag with the lads tho - those who have a bit more of a positive outlook, likely born of an understanding that there are a few more than just one way to skin the proverbial moggie. (More than one way to build a new Defender - some perhaps that just might hit a sweet spot in some hearts). That's a conversation I enjoy.

[MrLandy]

Well said. And completely fits the facts that most of the forum punters here will have already observed in multiple threads - that your personal expectations won't be met by the thus far undefined "new Defender".

I sure don't "need" to be told again of how disappointed you expect to be by the new Defender, nor of your doubts that there will even be a new Defender. I got it already. I also accept that while I don't "need" to be told again - you have a right to share your opinion again, and again, and again... even outside of the threads you created for that purpose. I just don't enjoy it.

I do, however, enjoy a good chin wag with the lads tho - those who have a bit more of a positive outlook, likely born of an understanding that there are a few more than just one way to skin the proverbial moggie. (More than one way to build a new Defender - some perhaps that just might hit a sweet spot in some hearts). That's a conversation I enjoy.

Cheers Neil, enjoy.

[Andrew86]

I think a new JLR EV 4x4 is the only other plausible reason (other than the probability that Defender really is finished) for the constant delays in any real announcement on a new Defender.

I think the reasons I put forward earlier in this thread are far more likely.

1. The new GBP 1 billion production facility in Slovakia won't be online until 2018 at the earliest. I have no doubt at all that the next Defender will be Slovakian to keep a lid on cost.

2. Prioritisation: getting the high margin vehicles right first from the Range Rover and Discovery pillars of the brand. The new Jaguar F-Pace would have also been given a lot of attention in recent years. JLR has finite resources, after all.

3. The DC100 concept was a disaster and required a ground-up rethink.

JLR is in a stronger position today than it ever has been. It finally has the resources and expertise to create a worthy replacement to the Fender we all love. I think there's good reasons for many of us to feel optimistic about the future of the Defender.

[cuppabillytea]

Well said. And completely fits the facts that most of the forum punters here will have already observed in multiple threads - that your personal expectations won't be met by the thus far undefined "new Defender".

I sure don't "need" to be told again of how disappointed you expect to be by the new Defender, nor of your doubts that there will even be a new Defender. I got it already. I also accept that while I don't "need" to be told again - you have a right to share your opinion again, and again, and again... even outside of the threads you created for that purpose. I just don't enjoy it.

I do, however, enjoy a good chin wag with the lads tho - those who have a bit more of a positive outlook, likely born of an understanding that there are a few more than just one way to skin the proverbial moggie. (More than one way to build a new Defender - some perhaps that just might hit a sweet spot in some hearts). That's a conversation I enjoy.
On a positive note, although Mr Landy has frustrated and annoyed many of us with his agenda. He has extracted comments, ideas and even the odd philosophical murmuring, that may otherwise have never come to light.

[MrLandy]

On a positive note, although Mr Landy has frustrated and annoyed many of us with his agenda. He has extracted comments, ideas and even the odd philosophical murmuring, that may otherwise have never come to light.

Thanks Billy for recognising the value of an alternate viewpoint. By the way, I have no agenda. Just call it as I see it. Time will tell. Vive la difference. Cheers.

[tact]

On the topic:
- We know that modern design rules (safety and antipollution) will have to be incorporated.

- Many have suggested that it'd be nice to have disco levels of comfort.

- Many suggest it must remain quite utilitarian.

- of course it has to be the best 4x4xfar as well. Above and beyond.

My thinking is that the above 4 bullet points don't need to be mutually exclusive.

For example:
- Comfortable ergonomic seats and seating position can still be easy clean and hard wearing
- none of the above require footwells and shag pile carpets
- working HVAC and audible ICE don't require compromised off-road ability and can be spec'd for different price points (or even omitted entirely for poverty pack models)

Face it - there are plenty of modern vehicles (delivery vans, even heavy haul trucks) that deliver on safety and pollution standards as well as driver/passenger comforts. Complete with rubber floor mats and ability to bolt on accessories.

Within the parameters defined in the first 4 bullet points above there is plenty of scope for an innovative manufacturer to churn out something awesome for a specific design purpose.

LR have published their 3 Pillars philosophy and that includes a purpose statement for Defender design. They have executed well the stated 3 Pillar purpose outlined for the other two pillars.

[tact]

So what can be built that accommodates the 4 "must have" bullet points in my last post?

The mind boggles! It's a wide open space! I won't even try to second guess where LR might go with that.

If it involves borrowing engineering and designs from other existing new platforms - I don't see any issue with that.

Just focusing on one aspect, let's say suspension: I reckon that whatever the new defender has be it air, coil, leaf, torsion bar, or something entirely other - what ever it is will be executed with a high degree of awesome. Because they have to. And this principle will be across the board. I reckon.

So whether the new defender is separate chassis or monocoque (or a hybrid), whether it has coils or air, whether it has solid axles or independant susp. - I reckon it's going to have significant "wow factor". Just like the way the other two pillars have been executed.

[carlschmid2002]

2019 Land Rover Defender: New Off-Road Tech – Bye Wrangler! – DailySun (http://dailysunknoxville.com/2019-land-rover-defender-new-off-road-tech-bye-wrangler/92008887)

Once upon a time I would have frowned at a 4wd with no transfer case but i is starting to make a lot of sense. Space, weight and vibrations to think of a few reasons.

[scarry]

2019 Land Rover Defender: New Off-Road Tech ? Bye Wrangler! ? DailySun (http://dailysunknoxville.com/2019-land-rover-defender-new-off-road-tech-bye-wrangler/92008887)

Once upon a time I would have frowned at a 4wd with no transfer case but i is starting to make a lot of sense. Space, weight and vibrations to think of a few reasons.

But i still can't see how an eight speed box will provide a spread of ratios similar to the current,for example, ZF and 2 speed TC in the current model D4.

The eight speed is used to keep the ratios close to maximise fuel economy,etc.Spreading the ratios will produce large gaps in between,i would think?

And at times the very low gears are handy,they are not something that are hardly ever used.

Maybe i am missing something:o

[PAT303]

It'll start off in 3rd or 4th normally by the way of a low gear cut out and you'll select 1st,2nd or 3rd manually when needed,off road machinery and a lot of road trucks have run this set-up for years.My mate has an Amarock and it goes everywhere a two speed T/C vehicle goes. Pat

[carlschmid2002]

I have driven Unimogs for years with the same set-up. 8 gears forward and 8 gears in reverse. I can say that I have got in 8th on a runway in reverse. I had a guide with his head out the capola.

[tact]

Maybe the "new" Defender might satisfy you after all, MrLandy?

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/rss-news-feeds/238316-discontinued-land-rover-defender-queens-favourite-car-could-make-grand-c.html#post2558413

[scarry]

It'll start off in 3rd or 4th normally by the way of a low gear cut out and you'll select 1st,2nd or 3rd manually when needed,off road machinery and a lot of road trucks have run this set-up for years.My mate has an Amarock and it goes everywhere a two speed T/C vehicle goes. Pat

So if you start off in third,you are going back to a 6 speed for road use,or fourth,a five speed.

Unimogs,trucks and large off road machinery are slightly different to the vehicles we are talking about.


Anyway,see what happens.

[MrLandy]

Maybe the "new" Defender might satisfy you after all, MrLandy?

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/rss-news-feeds/238316-discontinued-land-rover-defender-queens-favourite-car-could-make-grand-c.html#post2558413

:) not at all Tact. ...As I've said many times now, I think Defender should have been fully redesigned at least a decade ago and that any 'new' Defender has a lot to live up to. This doesn't mean it should just stay the same. It needs to move with the times. BUT what I am also consistently saying is that I'm not convinced JLR are really up for the redesign required. This it seems is what we disagree on. A nine speed auto? Sure, but it had better be much more robust over the long term than the majority of autos around...etc. I just don't believe JLR are seriously interesting in the HD work vehicle market anymore. If they were they would have redesigned Defender by now.

PS the queen isn't even sitting in a Defender in that pic! More lamearse motoring journalism too.

[Stuart02]

. I just don't believe JLR are seriously interesting in the HD work vehicle market anymore. If they were they would have redesigned Defender by now.


I don't know about that. I think the Defender was a kind of halo car for LR. It never mattered that it sold in small numbers cos it was a branding exercise, showing the brand's roots. There's no other reason they'd have persevered with it so long.

[tact]

:) not at all Tact. ...As I've said many times now, I think Defender should have been fully redesigned at least a decade ago [...]

Ok ooook. ;) But what if to resurrect the "old" Defender he has to modernize it a little? You know, airbags, crumple zones, fix a few leaks, pass some design/safety standards - That kinda thing. The article mentioned interest in IP, not so much about tools and dies.... Maybe he thinks like you - that the "new" defender (by Land Rover) won't cut the mustard and maybe he can do it right.

Damn that glass is half full - again!

[MrLandy]

I don't know about that. I think the Defender was a kind of halo car for LR. It never mattered that it sold in small numbers cos it was a branding exercise, showing the brand's roots. There's no other reason they'd have persevered with it so long.

icons sometimes have halo's, yes. But it's what makes them icons that counts, not the posthumous halo effect.

[MrLandy]

Ok ooook. ;) But what if to resurrect the "old" Defender he has to modernize it a little? You know, airbags, crumple zones, fix a few leaks, pass some design/safety standards - That kinda thing. The article mentioned interest in IP, not so much about tools and dies.... Maybe he thinks like you - that the "new" defender (by Land Rover) won't cut the mustard and maybe he can do it right.

Damn that glass is half full - again!

I doubt it.

[rar110]

The new Defender will need to be a better vehicle than say a povo pack GX Prado which has more nice stuff than the last Defender. Stuff like air bags, crumple zone, reversing camera, auto. It won't go as good off road in some places, but most of that market don't go those places.

JLR will need to differentiate the new Defender in terms of the product and value with stuff like EAS, TR and broad ratio single range box. Toyota's version of TR isn't included until the $80k Kakadu version. Although Ford's version is in a $50k Everest.

It's interesting stuff. Given we are only now starting to get glimpses of the final D5, the final Defender will be a while off.

[Stuart02]

icons sometimes have halo's, yes. But it's what makes them icons that counts, not the posthumous halo effect.

Confucius say what?

[Summiitt]

I hope the new Defender is completely different to the old design, the HD ute market already proves that customers will pay $60-$130k for a well designed, functional, capable and practical vehicle. I hope LR address the leaking doors, small cabs, pathetic fuel capacity and very average engine power. Don't get me wrong, I love my defenders, but it's time to completely re-write the blueprint if they want to sell volume. If they could blend a Unimog, with an F350 in a slightly bigger defender they would sell plenty..

[MrLandy]

I hope the new Defender is completely different to the old design, the HD ute market already proves that customers will pay $60-$130k for a well designed, functional, capable and practical vehicle. I hope LR address the leaking doors, small cabs, pathetic fuel capacity and very average engine power. Don't get me wrong, I love my defenders, but it's time to completely re-write the blueprint if they want to sell volume. If they could blend a Unimog, with an F350 in a slightly bigger defender they would sell plenty..

Really? Sounds like an ugly mutant yank tank to me Summiitt! Not a Defender.

[Summiitt]

There is a very good reason that F-trucks were the 3rd highest selling vehicle in the world for 2015..beaten only by VW polo and Toyota Corolla..

[Babs]

I disagree with the anti-tardis argument. Mine are absolutely Tardis! Friends can't believe how much I can fit in. And park next to a Tojo Troopy and they don't look so big. Much smaller, shorter and way easier to park than all current dualcab utes on the market! I also really like the snug driving position and visibility it affords. Ok I'll pass the new design if it's scaled up, keeping overall shape. ...deal? :cool:

Ha ha ha :) Mr Landy you been swimming in that river in Egypt again ❓

You need to drive a current model dual cab, there is no way a Defender is easier to drive or park❗️

At the very least your obscurity is very entertaining (no offence intended) it's humorous reading this thread :D

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Babs]

Bah ha ha ha ha ha ha :) Tombie you crack me up. Bada Bing Bada Bang :D

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[MrLandy]

I owned one of those generic current model dualcabs for a while Babs. Yup thought I'd give one a try. It was nice enough, in a vanilla kind of way. But absolutely terrible to park, poor visibility, blind spots everywhere, too long. And it was soft. ...Swimming in deNile you reckon? 😊 Or just not conforming to your satisfaction? Glad you're enjoying the thread. 👍

[MrLandy]

There is a very good reason that F-trucks were the 3rd highest selling vehicle in the world for 2015..beaten only by VW polo and Toyota Corolla..

Hmm yes let me see, kind of like when the conformadore was number one in oz? I have no interest in conforming to the masses, it's certainly not a measure of success in my book. And it would be a measure of failure for Defender IMO.

[Summiitt]

Hmm yes let me see, kind of like when the conformadore was number one in oz? I have no interest in conforming to the masses, it's certainly not a measure of success in my book. And it would be a measure of failure for Defender IMO.

Why do you think the Defender failed in production? Because it didn't sell!, if Landrover Don't appeal to the masses then the replacement Defender won't work and In turn, sell units.
As another example, European heavy trucks have become massively popular in areas that were normally the domain of the American brands, Volvo, Scania, MAN, Mercedes are all overtaking Kenworth, Western star, and Mack. The reason? American trucks stay put with old design, old technology and poor ergonomics, the European trucks in comparison have invested money in R&D and are a bloody dream to operate and do the job better..
I think your holding onto some idea of a sentimental empire conquering vehicle that has had its day, bring on the new Defender..

[rar110]

I have to agree with Mr Landy that the new Defender will be nothing like the old Defender. The new model will be built by robots and will be more likely to appeal to the masses.

However I'm betting it will be more capable (depending on how you measure capability).

[MrLandy]

Why do you think the Defender failed in production? Because it didn't sell!, if Landrover Don't appeal to the masses then the replacement Defender won't work and In turn, sell units.
As another example, European heavy trucks have become massively popular in areas that were normally the domain of the American brands, Volvo, Scania, MAN, Mercedes are all overtaking Kenworth, Western star, and Mack. The reason? American trucks stay put with old design, old technology and poor ergonomics, the European trucks in comparison have invested money in R&D and are a bloody dream to operate and do the job better..
I think your holding onto some idea of a sentimental empire conquering vehicle that has had its day, bring on the new Defender..

Quite the opposite Summiitt. Everyone keeps wanting Defender to morph into an F350/Hilux/Unimog crossbreed. I want Defender to be like nothing else...the best most advanced HD work vehicle ever seen, but keep the formats 90 110 130. I've also said numerous times that it should have been redesigned long ago.

It needs to be a Defender. Not some nostalgia hipster ride, or light duty Hilux clone, or buttugly massive yank tank. If it's any good it should appeal to the massive work vehicle market that currently has little to choose from, so they end up with light duty prados and rangers. Every single other vehicle in the Land Rover line up appeals to the wealthy urban masses. Defender needs to blitz the pragmatic work vehicle masses by being extraordinary and true to Defenders roots.

[Andrew86]

There is a very good reason that F-trucks were the 3rd highest selling vehicle in the world for 2015...

Because they're cheap and appeal to a part of the world that still thinks cars smaller than a frigate are for queers. I really hope Land Rover are aiming higher than Ram/F150/Silverado with the new Defender.

[rar110]

Quite the opposite Summiitt. Everyone keeps wanting Defender to morph into an F350/Hilux/Unimog crossbreed. I want Defender to be like nothing else...the best most advanced HD work vehicle ever seen, but keep the formats 90 110 130. I've also said numerous times that it should have been redesigned long ago. It needs to be a Defender. Not some nostalgia hipster ride, or light duty Hilux clone, or buttugly massive yank tank. If it's any good it should appeal to the massive work vehicle market that currently has little to choose from, so they end up with light duty prados and rangers. Every single other vehicle in the Land Rover line up appeals to the wealthy urban masses. Defender needs to blitz the pragmatic work vehicle masses by being extraordinary and true to Defenders roots.

I'm pretty sure you're not going to like the new Defender. It will probably be aiming at the Hilux/Ranger/Prado/Everest segment.

[MrLandy]

I'm pretty sure you're not going to like the new Defender. It will probably be aiming at the Hilux/Ranger/Prado/Everest segment.

Yup, that's what I've been saying for two years now. If that's the case it won't be a Defender IMO.

[Babs]

New 2018 spy pic. New Defender concept vehicle.

Mr Landy you should be happy with the new concept. :)



111353

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[steane]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82-p9W7OFhc

Land Rover Defender comeback rumours not true, says firm | Autocar (http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/land-rover-defender-comeback-rumours-not-true-says-firm)

An official statement said: "We can confirm there are no plans to restart production of the previous generation Defender.

"Defender will always be Land Rover's icon. Jaguar Land Rover has stated its intention to continue the Defender lineage with an all-new model. The Defender remains a key part of our future product strategy, and the development of the next generation model remains on track."

[MrLandy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82-p9W7OFhc

Land Rover Defender comeback rumours not true, says firm | Autocar (http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/land-rover-defender-comeback-rumours-not-true-says-firm)

An official statement said: "We can confirm there are no plans to restart production of the previous generation Defender.

"Defender will always be Land Rover's icon. Jaguar Land Rover has stated its intention to continue the Defender lineage with an all-new model. The Defender remains a key part of our future product strategy, and the development of the next generation model remains on track."

I suggest that this is the more pertinent quote, "In the JLR backrooms, they know life would be easier without either the Defender or the need to provide a replacement. The trouble is, whenever you ask people what a Land Rover is, they point out, or sketch, their version of the off-road icon."