Puma electric window always powered on mod

[Baytown]

A few people have asked about the mod to allow Puma electric Windows to be operated with the ignition off.
Make up a 2 cm jumper cable with 10 amp cable.
Connect to the window relay block found in the drivers side fuse location as per the attached photo.
And jobs done. Your windows should now be able to operate irrelevant to the key position.
Any issue with your vehicles electrics is your responsibility, but this is fault free in my experience and with my electrical system.
Best wishes all.
Ken
http://i1037.photobucket.com/albums/a452/47Indian/image_69.jpeg (http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/47Indian/media/image_69.jpeg.html)

[austastar]

Hi,
Thanks for that. I can see many Brownie points coming my way from the Mrs.

Cheers

[FV1601]

Thanks Ken, took longer to find the spade terminals in the shed than to do the job!
Maybe we need a thread on Best Mod For Your Buck...
Rich.

[Baytown]

Hi Rich.
You're welcome mate. It really is a great little useful mod eh!
Ken

[Tombie]

If you'd all read the Good Oil this mod was posted a few years ago by Alien..

Well worth reading the good oil people!!!

[karlz]

Nope that trick did not suit me.
I noticed as soon as I bridged the contacts my dash cam turned on and my cruise control lights activated.

Nevermind

[Tombie]

You can also do a similar set up but timed so it shuts off after a period..

Using one of these... gives enough time to remember and then safely de-energises the circuit.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/09/892.jpg

[Baytown]

I actually thought that was an oil thread. Seriously!
Some good stuff in there.
Thanks for the tip Tombie!

Ken

[karlz]

You can also do a similar set up but timed so it shuts off after a period..


You beauty.
I just ordered 2 of those relays, what a good idea.
I looked for an aussie place that sold them but couldnt find any for under $128 each, so I found this mob for about $60 each 12V Adjustable Delay Timer Relay (Delay ON/OFF) | 12 Volt Planet (http://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/adjustable-delay-timer-relay-delay-on-or-off-12v-10a.html)

[Baytown]

Great find Karlz.
I see they offer an intermittent (5 second) universal relay as well. I've just purchased this for the intermittent rear wiper function as well as the window delay relay. I'll create an account with this company, lots of interesting gear there, and good prices.
Thanks to both you and Tombie.
Good on you fellas.
Ken

[Lionel]

You can also do a similar set up but timed so it shuts off after a period..

Using one of these... gives enough time to remember and then safely de-energises the circuit.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/09/892.jpg

I haven't been able to find the earlier thread in "The Good Oil". What is the location of the electric window relay (as described for the Puma) in a TD5 Defender. I would be interested in trying the timed relay.

Cheers,

Lionel

[MogoDef]

Did this yesterday, works a treat and no ill effects. Took all of a couple of minutes. Couldnt even stretch it out to a one beer job:D:D:D

[Bru]

Gold!! 5 min job and works a treat. Thanks for the tip

[skidrov]

You can also do a similar set up but timed so it shuts off after a period..

Using one of these... gives enough time to remember and then safely de-energises the circuit.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/09/892.jpg

Does this relay just plug into the same base that's shown in the picture in the first post, i.e. the yellow one? So it's a timed jumper lead :) rather than just a permanent jumper lead?

...and I got off my butt and looked at my car: the relay block shown has currently got a relay in it. So, do I assume that with EITHER mod, you of course need to remove the original relay to replace with a wire OR the timer relay?

[muddy]

be aware by shorting out these contacts the 2 fuses that were allocated for the seat warmers (not used in oz ) will be alive at all times ,so they can be used for circuits with power protected all the time

[alittlebitconcerned]

...and I got off my butt and looked at my car: the relay block shown has currently got a relay in it. So, do I assume that with EITHER mod, you of course need to remove the original relay to replace with a wire OR the timer relay?

I'd be interested in hearing the answer to this as well...

[alien]

Does this relay just plug into the same base that's shown in the picture in the first post, i.e. the yellow one? So it's a timed jumper lead :) rather than just a permanent jumper lead?

...and I got off my butt and looked at my car: the relay block shown has currently got a relay in it. So, do I assume that with EITHER mod, you of course need to remove the original relay to replace with a wire OR the timer relay?

For these modifications the relay that is currently in the yellow plug is being removed from the system and made redundant.
The jump wire method is simply joining the 2 wires the relay would once energized when the ignition is turned on, I fused mine to add a level of wire protection.
The timed relay is a straight swap.

Either method will work.
I prefer full time availability(jump wire) as at camp there is no need to power up the Defender to put a window up.


While your there another mod I did...
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/237203-removed-wipe-function-washer-switch-puma.html

[Tote]

be aware by shorting out these contacts the 2 fuses that were allocated for the seat warmers (not used in oz ) will be alive at all times ,so they can be used for circuits with power protected all the time

Thanks for that, My 130 has seat warmers, could be a good way to send your battery flat.....

Regards,
Tote

[Tombie]

be aware by shorting out these contacts the 2 fuses that were allocated for the seat warmers (not used in oz ) will be alive at all times ,so they can be used for circuits with power protected all the time



Are used in Oz thank you [emoji48][emoji6][emoji41]

[TeamFA]

Anybody know of a similar mod to permanently power the windows on a TD5...?

Annoys the hell out of me having to turn the ignition on to adjust the windows when parked...

[muddy]

Are used in Oz thank you [emoji48][emoji6][emoji41]

fuses there NOT connected to seat warmers --don't exist on 2013

[Tombie]

fuses there NOT connected to seat warmers --don't exist on 2013



Was an option - certainly connected on the MY15 in the driveway [emoji6]

[MogoDef]

Found out this week that wipers are also powered on constantly.

[alien]

Found out this week that wipers are also powered on constantly.

Checked mine today and this does not happen to the wipers.
Double check the correct relay has been bypassed.

[FV1601]

My wipers are also available at any time now! Like to think of it as an added bonus for all that work I did on the window mod....
Rich.

[MogoDef]

Definitely right relay. Windows and wipers stay on when ignition is off. Not a problem and small price to pay to be able to open and close windows without keys.

[Baytown]

That's interesting.
Mine aren't in my 2012, 110. I wonder why that would be on others?

[Tombie]

Have to wonder what else is being left powered up... there's a bit of potential for damage if unknown...

[skidrov]

You beauty.
I just ordered 2 of those relays, what a good idea.
I looked for an aussie place that sold them but couldnt find any for under $128 each, so I found this mob for about $60 each 12V Adjustable Delay Timer Relay (Delay ON/OFF) | 12 Volt Planet (http://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/adjustable-delay-timer-relay-delay-on-or-off-12v-10a.html)

I ordered one of these too (exact same) - but, I'm having trouble getting it to work. I was expecting this to be the easiest mod ever (plug and play), but not so... I've read the instructions carefully, have set the dials correctly (at least to what it says should be right for delay OFF), but the windows will not work - on any key position. Change back to the old relay and all good...

Has anyone else who's bought one of these relays got it to work? It makes me think either it's not up to the job, OR I got a dead on arrival one.

[Baytown]

Both my relays were waiting for me this morning at the Post Office. Great service from the UK. I'll look at fitting them in the next few days and let you know of any issues.
Ken

[Dopey]

I ordered one of these too (exact same) - but, I'm having trouble getting it to work. I was expecting this to be the easiest mod ever (plug and play), but not so... I've read the instructions carefully, have set the dials correctly (at least to what it says should be right for delay OFF), but the windows will not work - on any key position. Change back to the old relay and all good...

Has anyone else who's bought one of these relays got it to work? It makes me think either it's not up to the job, OR I got a dead on arrival one.



I know bugger all about electronics....
But having a bit of a read and a look at the wiring diagram on the website for these relays, I think that maybe the relays are not the correct ones for the job...???

The way I read the diagram is that the terminal 15 is used to trigger the delay function between on and off (disregarding the time limits which is set by the dials).

So for the delay to go ON, it uses a continuous power supply (on/off switch),
And for the delay OFF, it uses a momentary switch.

So to go between the delay on and the delay off... It would require another switch somewhere being powered by the supply (positive +) side of the battery system to go to this terminal 15 to turn on and off the delay system....
The switch being able to be used as both a momentary and an continuous switch?

Because with the standard relay being used it is being triggered by holding the window switch down, triggering and energising the load circuit.

Or have I got it completely ballsed up???

Electrical things hurt my head whenever I try and think about them...
Hopefully someone with more electrical knowledge can clear this up for me.

I hope what I've written above makes sense.

Regards,
Mike.

[alien]

I know bugger all about electronics....
But having a bit of a read and a look at the wiring diagram on the website for these relays, I think that maybe the relays are not the correct ones for the job...???

The way I read the diagram is that the terminal 15 is used to trigger the delay function between on and off (disregarding the time limits which is set by the dials).

So for the delay to go ON, it uses a continuous power supply (on/off switch),
And for the delay OFF, it uses a momentary switch.

So to go between the delay on and the delay off... It would require another switch somewhere being powered by the supply (positive +) side of the battery system to go to this terminal 15 to turn on and off the delay system....
The switch being able to be used as both a momentary and an continuous switch?

Because with the standard relay being used it is being triggered by holding the window switch down, triggering and energising the load circuit.

Or have I got it completely ballsed up???

Electrical things hurt my head whenever I try and think about them...
Hopefully someone with more electrical knowledge can clear this up for me.

I hope what I've written above makes sense.

Regards,
Mike.
In these rigs the standard relay is activated by the ignition, not the use of the window switches.
Terminal 15 in the diagrame is the ignition feed to activate the relay(the coil is earthed at pin 31).
That in turn conects the battery live feed (pin 30) to the outiputs (pins87) that then conect to the window switches( and some have found- seat heaters and wipers)
The bypass just joins pins 30 to 87.

I see on the diagrame there is a 10 amp output limitation at pin 87.
I found I was blowing 10 amp fuses in the online fuse Holder I used in this modification, a 20 amp fuse is now fitted with no issues.
It may be worth running a amp meter across pins 30 and 87 to see what the draw is when the window(or both)is used.

[Dopey]

In these rigs the standard relay is activated by the ignition, not the use of the window switches.
Terminal 15 in the diagrame is the ignition feed to activate the relay(the coil is earthed at pin 31).
That in turn conects the battery live feed (pin 30) to the outiputs (pins87) that then conect to the window switches( and some have found- seat heaters and wipers)
The bypass just joins pins 30 to 87.

I see on the diagrame there is a 10 amp output limitation at pin 87.
I found I was blowing 10 amp fuses in the online fuse Holder I used in this modification, a 20 amp fuse is now fitted with no issues.
It may be worth running a amp meter across pins 30 and 87 to see what the draw is when the window(or both)is used.


I would've thought that power was switched on to the relay when the ignition was switched on, but that the relay was not triggered to provide the heavier current flow until the window switch was depressed and therefore triggering the relay to actuate and the electromagnet to energize and provide the heavier current flow required for the window electric motor to work (of course polarity dependant on rotational requirement of the switching gear; ie, window up or down).

What I understand that you're saying is that the ignition when switched on energises the relay even when it is not required to be used.
For example, the complete opposite of a relay used for say, the headlights which is only energised when the headlights are switched on to allow for the greater current flow required.

Even allowing for the miniscule amount of power required to activate the elctromagnet and energise the relay, wouldn't it be better for the electrical system to have it switched off and only energised when the switch is pushed?

Anyways, I still don't think that you realise what I'm trying to get across, that being even if the standard relay is activated by the ignition (as you suggest), that with the ignition off, the new time delay relay won't work without a switchable power supply to supply power for the time delay function to work.... If the ignition is off and there is no power to the relay, and there being no capacitor to power the time delay relay, it's function will not work. You turn the time delay function on by providing power to pin 15 as a continuous supply...
To provide the necessary power to allow this relay system to work as a timer function, what I see you would have to do is run a bridging wire from pin 30 (+12V fused battery feed) to pin 15, you could also put a switch in this bridging wire to turn the time delay function off, although this is basically the same as using the ignition key switch with the standard relay...

Or do I have it completely ballsed up still.

Regards,
Mike.

[alien]

I can see where your coming from for the normal use of a relay.
Having a relay to power up a circuit,like a headlamps or driving lights is how we see thier normal function.
How ever we are talking Land Rover so throw all previous assumptions out the window;)
What they have done is use a relay for various functions to reduce current flow through the ignition switch.
Manufacturers have been doing this for many years.
The headlamp circuit is another example of this on a Defender.
The headlamp relay supplies power to the switch which is why they turn off when the ignition is off(park lamps are on another circuit).
The headlamp switch still takes all the current and is a known weak point, a Traxside kit has sorted that for me using the witch to operate a relay under the bonnet:)

My understanding of the delay relay (for our intended use )is pin 15 is the switch supply.
When turned on the relay works as normal.
When turned off a internal circuit allows the relay to stay conected for a predetermined time according to the setting.
It will get power for this timer function from pin 30 as 15 is the trigger for starting the timer.
Hope that makes sense.

[alien]

Have to wonder what else is being left powered up... there's a bit of potential for damage if unknown...
I just had quick look at part of the wiring diagrams.
Indeed the window relay supplies power to the windows, rear wipers, seat warmers.
I have not look to see what else, another ron job(latter on).


Pin 30(live supply) has a 60 amp supply via a Fusible link.
The relay then supplies the internal fuse box with...
10 amp Seat warmer LH.
10 amp Seat warmer RH.
20 amp Window LH.
20 amp Window RH.
10 amp Rear wiper/washer.




At this stage I'll plead the 5th,
I don't have seat warmers and never use the rear wipers so never knew about the other circuits.
As with all things on any forum, do your own research before doing any modifications.
And I walk away hopefully covering myself;)

[Tombie]

Thanks Alien..
In the case of Mrs Tombies Vehicle that would result in a flat battery in short order during cooler weather :)

[skidrov]

I just had quick look at part of the wiring diagrams.
Indeed the window relay supplies power to the windows, rear wipers, seat warmers.
I have not look to see what else, another ron job(latter on).


Pin 30(live supply) has a 60 amp supply via a Fusible link.
The relay then supplies the internal fuse box with...
10 amp Seat warmer LH.
10 amp Seat warmer RH.
20 amp Window LH.
20 amp Window RH.
10 amp Rear wiper/washer.



...so, the circuit can have at peak about 70 amps thru it, theoretically. Unlikely, but that's what the relay MIGHT encounter.

Also, I had a look at the factory relay you replace with a wire, or a timer relay - it's a 40A one in my car. So, I think the UK-sourced timer relay linked elsewhere in this thread, rated as a 10A unit, is not up to the job.

I've been looking for other timer relays, with higher ampage ratings, and have found a cheapie on aliexpress (not my favourite shopping venue) and a slightly more expensive Beuler one ($US 16 plus shipping) here: Beuler BU508TD 12 VDC Automotive 4-Pin SPST Time Delay Relay with adjustable timing (http://www.qualitymobilevideo.com/bu508td.html)

The aliexpress one looks to need one of the wires moved in the relay socket to properly align with the relay. For all of about $6 I've ordered one and we'll see what (or if) it turns up. Also, this cheapie, like the UK-sourced unit, is quite tall and I found I couldn't properly shut the fuse hatch with the taller relay inside - something will need to move.

The Beuler sourced one looks good but it's hard to find on the web, the seller I linked to gouges for shipping, and has not yet replied to my request asking what can be done to make that part of the cost more reasonable.

So, probably coming to the limit of my personal interest in what this will achieve for the amount of effort expended :D .

The summary for me for now is that the permanent-on wire looks to have flat battery risks, but the best cost to implement, and the relays are hard to find in the correct spec... I'll post if I get any updates, for those like me who are driven nuts by small problems :wallbash: . I should get a life, but I got a Defender instead...

[Baytown]

I just fitted the new delay relay in place of my jumper set up, and no go. I downloaded the instructions from their web site and adjusted the dials inside the plugs but no use, so my jumper cable is back in place.
I also replaced the rear wiper relay with the 5 second delay unit they sell and Bugger me, always on, even with the key removed!, so I put the OEM rear wiper relay back in.
On the electronics front, a disappointing day!
Ken

[MogoDef]

So I was away with the family a while back and experienced some weird electrical issues. Was going around a corner and the fan and stereo momentarily cut out and came back on. About a hundred metres up the road and it cut out again this time with a burning smell. Couldn't trace it anywhere, can't find any fuses blown. Got it going again and continued on. Next time I tried to go some where I can't get it started. It will kick over fine but as soon as I release the key it cuts out. It will keep running if I hold the key just of the starter motor kicking but as soon as I release it it stops. Now the stereo and fan are gone completely. A bit of research later and suspected the ignition switching on the back of the barrel had fallen apart, apparently a common problem. Took it in to get fixed and mechanic says it hadn't fallen apart but the whole switch had been burnt out as if way too much current had gone through it. I think this bypass is at the top of my list for culprits. What do you think? Could this have led to the burnt out switch???

[alien]

So I was away with the family a while back and experienced some weird electrical issues. Was going around a corner and the fan and stereo momentarily cut out and came back on. About a hundred metres up the road and it cut out again this time with a burning smell. Couldn't trace it anywhere, can't find any fuses blown. Got it going again and continued on. Next time I tried to go some where I can't get it started. It will kick over fine but as soon as I release the key it cuts out. It will keep running if I hold the key just of the starter motor kicking but as soon as I release it it stops. Now the stereo and fan are gone completely. A bit of research later and suspected the ignition switching on the back of the barrel had fallen apart, apparently a common problem. Took it in to get fixed and mechanic says it hadn't fallen apart but the whole switch had been burnt out as if way too much current had gone through it. I think this bypass is at the top of my list for culprits. What do you think? Could this have led to the burnt out switch???
In order for the switch to burn out a constant high current load would need to be applied.
The ignition switches the relay that is removed on or off, as the relay removes the load from the ignition switch I don't think they are related.

[In A Landy Down Under]

A few people have asked about the mod to allow Puma electric Windows to be operated with the ignition off.
Make up a 2 cm jumper cable with 10 amp cable.
Connect to the window relay block found in the drivers side fuse location as per the attached photo.
And jobs done. Your windows should now be able to operate irrelevant to the key position.
Any issue with your vehicles electrics is your responsibility, but this is fault free in my experience and with my electrical system.
Best wishes all.
Ken


Ken, any solution to enable both windows to go up at the same time? I have pretty big hands and even I cant press them both at the same time with my thumb and little finger stretched out - quite annoying.

I was thinking of buying a spare dash switch and splicing both existing sides to connect together. Not sure if that will work but sounds like it should, or if theres a simpler/better solutions.

[Baytown]

That's an interesting question!
Not that I'm aware of sorry mate, and must admit, it's not an issue Ivehad problems with.(Small, Trump like hands!)
Ken

[Tombie]

Seriously? Pressing 2 buttons is annoying? Have we as a species really come down to this? [emoji6]

They close so damn fast as is...

Anyhow, linking them will be an easy challenge - you'd need to add a small isolator switch between them to maintain independent control as well and use a wire to patch between the "up" on the drivers switch to the "up" on the passenger switch..

[In A Landy Down Under]

haha yes Tombie.....it's one of those very minor things that just irritates me each time I go to do it. Its not on my priority list but its something I'll get round too at some stage.