Mixing engine oils?

[Bohica]

I think it would be ok to mix Nulon diesel fully synthetic with Penrite diesel semi synthetic oil. Is it? Just making sure.
I'm gearing up for the service.

Thanks

Bo

[sierrafery]

IMO better not mix fully with semi, especially not different brands.... though if you mean drop one entirely and put the other no probs

[rangieman]

IMO better not mix fully with semi, especially not different brands.... though if you mean drop one entirely and put the other no probs

X2 No .
Oh a Simple Google got this for you:p
What Happens if You Mix Regular and Synthetic Oil? (http://chemistry.about.com/od/geochemistry/f/What-Happens-If-You-Mix-Regular-And-Synthetic-Oil.htm)

[Bohica]

X2 No .
Oh a Simple Google got this for you:p
What Happens if You Mix Regular and Synthetic Oil? (http://chemistry.about.com/od/geochemistry/f/What-Happens-If-You-Mix-Regular-And-Synthetic-Oil.htm)

Yeah but I looked for semi synthetic mixed with fully synthetic.
Your google found Regular ie. mineral and synthetic. :D

Cheers

Bo

[rangieman]

Yeah but I looked for semi synthetic mixed with fully synthetic.
Your google found Regular ie. mineral and synthetic. :D

Cheers

Bo

You asked and you got answered , It`s your car do what you want ,
No more from me then good luck:p

[rick130]

The base oils aren't the issue, it's the dilution of the additive package that's a potential problem.

In real world use you'll probably find no issue at all, but an engine oil is a finely balanced blend of base oils and additives, with the additive package accounting for up to 25% by volume of the oil.
In some ways you could view it that the base oils are there merely as a carrier for the additive package. The mix of additives provide a lot of the Extreme Pressure (EP) and Anti Wear (AW) duties, anti scuff resistance, anti-oxidation duty, detergent and dispersant properties, etc.

Put it this way, the resulting blend isn't going to start bubbling and frothing and smoking, nor is it going to suddenly breakdown and become like water, but you are potentially diluting the resulting additives which may or may not be similar and in similar ratios.
It all depends who Nulon buy their add package through and then, which one they are using in that particular oil.
Penrite have (or at least had) a very strong relationship with Lubrizol.

I wouldn't sweat it too much if they meet the same specs and you aren't going to be towing a 32' monster van in 40*+ temps off road in low low while rock hopping. :D

[Bohica]

So it's out with the magnatec and in with the Nulon Fully Synthetic

https://www.autobarn.com.au/full-synthetic-5w-30-long-life-engine-oil-10l

Cheers

Bo

[Don 130]

Very good to see Rick 130 back on deck. I hope you've been ok Rick.
Don.

[thai_tiger]

value for money and high quality product, I couldn't top it.
DELVAC 1 ESP 5W-40 (http://lowespetroleum.com.au/shop/lubricants/delvac-1-esp-5w-40-2/)

[bsperka]

Semi synthetic is up to 30% synthetic, so at least 70% mineral.

[bsperka]

I would have thought the base oils were part of the issue. Synthetic starts at the higher viscosity and viscosity doesn't degrade as much as mineral?

[sierrafery]

Fully synthetic is more resistant to thermal breakdown in the turbo... the only good way to prolonge the engine's life without changing the oil twice a year IMO, especially in warm regions.

[Roverlord off road spares]

X2 No .
Oh a Simple Google got this for you:p
What Happens if You Mix Regular and Synthetic Oil? (http://chemistry.about.com/od/geochemistry/f/What-Happens-If-You-Mix-Regular-And-Synthetic-Oil.htm)
You an your google . LOL.
Here's another ,list of 20 top search engines. just in case
https://www.reliablesoft.net/top-10-search-engines-in-the-world/

[squizzyhunter]

I am not well versed in this area but when I spoke to the guys at Penrite after accidentally mixing 2 different viscosity Penrite oils their primary concern was the matching of the additive package, if they were matched and both oils were within tolerance of the engine specs it will be ok.
My take home message = doable if needed but wouldn't do it intentionally and would change at a shorter interval if I did. As for semi and synthetic, the smart money seems to unanimously vote a big no no but it's your ship steer it as you see fit.

[Tombie]

value for money and high quality product, I couldn't top it.
DELVAC 1 ESP 5W-40 (http://lowespetroleum.com.au/shop/lubricants/delvac-1-esp-5w-40-2/)



Has given poor results in cam and injector lobe wear in a TD5...

Penrite Semi-syn has proven a much better oil in a TD5 for reduced wear..

[Fast Freddie]

Has given poor results in cam and injector lobe wear in a TD5...

Penrite Semi-syn has proven a much better oil in a TD5 for reduced wear..
I know Tombie likes to play his cards close to his chest - or maybe he just likes to use the smallest number of words to get the job done - both are admirable traits - anyway, this valuable information is definitely based upon objective measurements provided by an AULRO member, whose posts I cant be bothered to track down :/
On that basis, I'm sticking with the Penrite Semi-Syn (Penrite HPR-5 Diesel 5W40) and I chuck in a bottle of STP too, since it's the ZDDP that makes the Penrite work properly in the first place. I know that you can actually have too much of a good thing, but I reckon that 443ml in 8 litres is ok.
Bohica, the Penrite is available at Repco in Millers Rd at around $80 when it's on sale. I've got 10L you can borrow till then, if you like. (STP is at SCA in Yarraville)

[thai_tiger]

[QUOTE=Tombie;2586169]Has given poor results in cam and injector lobe wear in a TD5...





can you show your reference for that comment.

[Roverlord off road spares]

HPR DIESEL 5 5W-40 (Semi Syn.

Typical Data

Density at 15degC, kg/L0.859
Viscosity, Kinematic, cSt
at 40degC 100
at 100degC 14.7
Viscosity Index152
Cold Cranking Viscosity, cP at -30 deg C5576Zinc,
Mass %0.122
Phosphorus, Mass %0.110
Sulphated Ash,mass %1.34
Base Number10.7


Penrite also recommend their engine flush before changing your oil.

[sierrafery]

If that Penrite semi is proven good i'm sure that if there is some Penrite fully synth on the market that would be even better :cool: ... all the qualities shown in the data sheet will be lost due to thermal breakdown at any oil but the fully synthetic will keep them longer... i have a Lubricheck oil tester device and checked the oil many times on mine(i'm using only fully synth) and other's who are using semi or mineral and the difference is huge after the aprox same kms made....while the fully was still below 50% wear the others were on the orange or even red zone... i'm changing the oil based on that lubricheck tool not kms cos i observed that it wears out different according to the driving conditions and load... in fact the ECT and EGT has the greatest impact

in a nutshell: IMO the proper spec fully synth is the best for any turbo engine

[Bohica]

Penrite also recommend their engine flush before changing your oil.



I had to look this up. :D duck duck go
I'm relieved that the flush is added to the oil before the oil is drained.
I had visions of draining the oil and then flushing with litres of some kero type stuff!! :o

[Tombie]

No Sierrafery. The company do not recommend the full synthetic as primary choice...

Penrite Semi syn has some benefits of long and short chains - as well as an exceptional additive package.... it's the additives that do most of the work...

[Tombie]

[QUOTE=Tombie;2586169]Has given poor results in cam and injector lobe wear in a TD5...





can you show your reference for that comment.



Having been a member for a long time it's long since gone from my feed.

It was conversion including myself, JC, Rick130 and others.
As tuners, mechanics, lubrication specialists etc we have observed this and found less wear in oil testing etc.

I'd suggest you google search Aulro.

[scarry]

Has given poor results in cam and injector lobe wear in a TD5...

Penrite Semi-syn has proven a much better oil in a TD5 for reduced wear..

I was told by a good LR indie a few years back the same.

[thai_tiger]

[quote=thai_tiger;2586231]



Having been a member for a long time it's long since gone from my feed.

It was conversion including myself, JC, Rick130 and others.
As tuners, mechanics, lubrication specialists etc we have observed this and found less wear in oil testing etc.

I'd suggest you google search Aulro.


checked the Aulro search didn't come up with anything Mobil Delavc esp specific but does mention mobil 1, is this what you remember.
Delvac is a premium grade oil that out performs nearly all, I'm surprised you don't rate it. If your correct about damage to cam etc then I need to know and change preference.

[rick130]

I would have thought the base oils were part of the issue. Synthetic starts at the higher viscosity and viscosity doesn't degrade as much as mineral?

I'm not sire what you mean by this ?

[sierrafery]

If Penrite doesnt recommend the fully synth then IMO some other fully synth which is recommended should be the choice... i'm using Castrol Edge TD 5W40 fullyn synth which is also recommended for the VW PD(EUI) engines which are almost the same with Td5... Though i dont want to argue on this, i rely on my Lubricheck and that's my own conclusion:cool:

[rick130]

Has given poor results in cam and injector lobe wear in a TD5...

Penrite Semi-syn has proven a much better oil in a TD5 for reduced wear..

Mobil1 10W-30 is a definite no no (and possibly 0W-40, although I think Slunnie runs/ran it ?) IMO in a TD5.

M1 in dual spec petrol/diesel versions just don't have the EP additives need for the heavily loaded injector lobes in a TD5.
Basically any oil that meets the ILSAC GF-4/5 spec isn't robust enough for the TD5.

Older versions of Delvac 1 (CI-4 and CI-4+) were very good, but I don't have any data from or could recommend the most recent versions.

As Mike said the additive package is more important than the base oils, unless you are taking oil change intervals out to 20,000km+, then the full syn will show better oxidation stability and lower wear metals, etc.
Mostly the premium syn oils also have the better additive packages, but that isn't always the case.

Put it this way, an average full syn oil gives less protection than a very good, heavily additised full mineral oil over shorter mileages.

I'm sorry, I don't have any data to hand to back that up, it's only heresay and lets face it, anyone can claim anything on the interwebs but all that I can say is that the oil analyst I've used over the last fifteen years, a bloke I pay money to to analyse my lab results and give me advice on oils has recommended a full mineral oil over all but one synthetic on a couple of occasions.
No names no pack drill as it's privileged information, and FWIW those full mineral oils were eye wateringly expensive here in Australia.

One example I can give is Penrite's prime race diff oil, their Pro Gear 85W-110 fluid.

It's a full mineral oil with a special borate ester EP additive package as opposed to most blenders sulphur/phosphorous additive package.
Texaco in the US were the first to develop borate ester additised gear oils. they are very good.
Unfortunately from an off-roaders perspective their ability to handle water dilution isn't good, they tend to be highly miscible with water and lead to rapid seal degradation.

[thai_tiger]

just to confirm mobil 1 delvac esp 5 w 40 is not suited to the td5


thx

[Tombie]

If Penrite doesnt recommend the fully synth then IMO some other fully synth which is recommended should be the choice... i'm using Castrol Edge TD 5W40 fullyn synth which is also recommended for the VW PD(EUI) engines which are almost the same with Td5... Though i dont want to argue on this, i rely on my Lubricheck and that's my own conclusion:cool:



Your engine. Your choice.... [emoji6]

But synthetic is not the be all and end all...... especially at 12k service intervals....

[Tombie]

just to confirm mobil 1 delvac esp 5 w 40 is not suited to the td5


thx



Your call... but I've chosen, like many others, to not run it...
Penrite Diesel 5 has the runs on the board...

A significant number on here run it...

[sierrafery]

As i said i dont care about the mileage, i'm changing it when the oil gets to orange zone on the lubricheck device, and that can vary between 7 - 10K Km. while on the other's at 3.5-5K were on red zone... but nobody uses Penrite here cos it's not on the market :cool:

[Tombie]

If Penrite doesnt recommend the fully synth then IMO some other fully synth which is recommended should be the choice... i'm using Castrol Edge TD 5W40 fullyn synth which is also recommended for the VW PD(EUI) engines which are almost the same with Td5... Though i dont want to argue on this, i rely on my Lubricheck and that's my own conclusion:cool:



Just a side note.

Those Lubricheck devices are a great concept..

You do realise though that they quote that the "Titanium" Castrol fluids can and do give false readings due to their additive package..

So your oil may be returning a false reading..

Perhaps some independent lab analysis of your oil at the same time is in order...

[sierrafery]

You do realise though that they quote that the "Titanium" Castrol fluids can and do give false readings due to their additive package..


It means that it has a hell of a additive pack:D ... i missed that false reading thing, thanks for noticing, i'll make some investigation but i can't find here any semy oil to be better than a fully for the Td5 even if i swap to the Comma PD which is also recommended for EUI engines

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Hey Sierrafery,, just what brands do you get "West of Transylvania" :D

[harro]

Hey Sierrafery,, just what brands do you get "West of Transylvania" :D

Most likely bright red, but a pain in the neck getting it:Rolling:

[bsperka]

From various sources i have read that the base viscosity of a synthetic remains pretty consistent irrespective of the additive condition; mineral oil (and semi synthetic I assume ) viscosity reduces as the additives wear out.

[sierrafery]

Hey Sierrafery,, just what brands do you get "West of Transylvania" :D
Anything but Penrite :cool: ... actually on the factory fitted silencer of my engine there is a sticker with the whole range of Mobil 1 fully synth oils with the graphic of ambient temps how they should be used attached :confused:

[Tombie]

From various sources i have read that the base viscosity of a synthetic remains pretty consistent irrespective of the additive condition; mineral oil (and semi synthetic I assume ) viscosity reduces as the additives wear out.



And there's the catch - once the additive package is worn out it doesn't matter - the oil needs changing.

[thai_tiger]

According to Mobil, Mobil Delvac esp 5w 40 is perfectly ok for the td5, the suggested cam wear is more than balanced out by it being less carbonising in effect less wear.

[bsperka]

Lets say in both cases additives are half exhausted at oil change (not exhausted, which would be worst case scenario). A 5W-40 synthetic would still be around the 40 grade, I understand mineral would be more 25 or less. Mineral would be blacker due to oil degradation, which it's additives are suspending in the oil itself. Engine deposits are also higher due to mineral oil degradation.

Have a look at this Audi engine (84k miles without oil change). Either type won't survive this long.. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/09/613.jpg

http://jalopnik.com/what-happens-if-you-dont-change-the-oil-in-your-audi-fo-1692660828

[Roverlord off road spares]

If that Penrite semi is proven good i'm sure that if there is some Penrite fully synth on the market that would be even better :cool: ... all the qualities shown in the data sheet will be lost due to thermal breakdown at any oil but the fully synthetic will keep them longer... i have a Lubricheck oil tester device and checked the oil many times on mine(i'm using only fully synth) and other's who are using semi or mineral and the difference is huge after the aprox same kms made....while the fully was still below 50% wear the others were on the orange or even red zone... i'm changing the oil based on that lubricheck tool not kms cos i observed that it wears out different according to the driving conditions and load... in fact the ECT and EGT has the greatest impact

in a nutshell: IMO the proper spec fully synth is the best for any turbo engine

Looking at the Penrite Site they list the Semi Synthetic oil AS PREFERRED for my L322TD6 Rangie, yet they also list the fully synthetic. So if fully synthetic was better than wonder why is the semi preferred?

[sierrafery]

That's what Penrite recommends no doubt of that but why would we trust Penrite more than other good brands... i've checked the top of best rated engine oils and Valvoline is first in most tops, see what they recommend Valvoline Recommended Oil & Lubricant Guide for your Vehicle (http://www.furitech.com.au/index.php/valvoline-lube-guide/) , Castrol who is nr 5 recommends a Magnatec 5w30 A5 fully synth oil: http://applications.castrol.com/oilselector/en_gb/c/recommendation'vehicleType=light-commercial-vehicles-(-7-5t)&manufacturer=land-rover&model=discovery-2-(1998-2005)&modelType=discovery-2-5-td5-(1998-2005)... but if we go further we see that Shell recommends 15W40 oil Find the right oil | Shell Global (http://www.shell.com/motorist/find-the-right-oil.html#iframe-L2F1L2VuX0dCL2VxdWlwbWVudC9jYXJzL2xhbmRfcm92ZXIvZG lzY292ZXJ5XzJfNV90ZDVfZGlzY292ZXJ5X2lpXzJmNmd5M1p4 OEc=) :eek:

i've learned something along my life to not 100% trust the recommendation of those who are selling oils and better rely on own experience of scientific arguments... and from all the research i've made in the oil area(and i've spent many hours for that) my conclusion is that fully synth is better for MY Td5 :cool:

anyway thanks everyone for this discussion cos i decided to go for the Valvoline SYNPOWER FULL SYNTHETIC 5W-40 next time as it will not trick my Lubricheck like Castrol might have

[Tombie]

Hahaha top rated - Valvoline. [emoji6]

Yes, who would trust a well renown Aussie oil company, whose oil was used by the Castrol racing teams in rebranded 20l drums..

Who would trust a company that is liable for any damage proven to be from incorrect oil recommendation.

Who would trust a company that has certification approvals for many of its products (not just claiming compliance)

[Tombie]

We moved 3 customers over from Valvoline - they now have smoother engines [emoji6]

[sierrafery]

So you tell me please a worldwide known brand other than Penrite(which is almost unknown in eastern Europe) which you trust and let's see what they recommend.;) ...it's not me who made the top ten's of oils and i didnt find Penrite in any of them... which doesnt mean it's not a brilliant oil but as long as they recommend a semy oil for a turbo diesel EUI engine i have my own doubts no offence.... also i haven't ever said the semy is not good or it will ruin the engine so no risk for Penrite on this... IMO it's a long way from an oil which will damage the engine to what's satisfactory or the best

[rick130]

just to confirm mobil 1 delvac esp 5 w 40 is not suited to the td5


thx

It's a lot more suitable than M1.

I used to use Delvac 1 and it was a brilliant oil. Took it to 20,000km in a Patrol TD42 regularly that was worked very hard (towing) and wear metals were better than Fuchs Titan 15W-40 at 5,000km, but this was well over a decade ago.

Personally, I'd make the choice between it or Penrite depending on availability and $ and it'd be fine.
Having said that the oil analyst doesn't rate the modern Mobil syns anywhere near where they were fifteen years ago, or to put it another way, there are better oils for extreme or tricky applications. In general use. or where they've worked closely with an engine manufacturer and certified an oil for an engine family they are fine.

I'm not trying to be a fan boy here, I'm only interested in what works, I have no brand loyalties but interestingly when an Aussie customer of the analyst i use has had a problem with a well regarded boutique oil he has them use Penrite and it usually sorts the problem. eg one very well known POE based oil was giving problems in a Chev (all indications were a bottling problem, dirt) so they used a Penrite blend as a control and the problem was solved and the results were very good.
The bloke I use is US based and he was surprised but happy, he's only interested in results, not names.

It hasn't always been this way.
Way back in another lifetime when I raced a competitor was Penrite sponsored and they had all sorts of problems with the oil, lots of foaming with the high G's of racing, and the engine was dry sumped.
This was well before Penrite made any synthetic oils, it was all high viscosity stuff.

[rick130]

So you tell me please a worldwide known brand other than Penrite(which is almost unknown in eastern Europe) which you trust and let's see what they recommend.;) ...it's not me who made the top ten's of oils and i didnt find Penrite in any of them... which doesnt mean it's not a brilliant oil but as long as they recommend a semy oil for a turbo diesel EUI engine i have my own doubts no offence.... also i haven't ever said the semy is not good or it will ruin the engine so no risk for Penrite on this... IMO it's a long way from an oil which will damage the engine to what's satisfactory or the best

With the tightened specs of engine manufacturers these days just use an oil that's on the manufacturers certified list and be happy. :D

Older engines we still have some wriggle room to play with, but anything under warranty and you'd be crazy to use something that isn't licensed.